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4/23/09 6:34:43 AM#121
Originally posted by BadgerSmaker
No need to ban booze when there are rules governing where, when, and who has access to it. |
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JYCowboy
 Advanced Member
Joined: 1/11/05
SWG: Jess Youngstar(CIA)-Ahazi |
4/23/09 8:32:52 AM#122
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 In short, yep. |
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JYCowboy
Advanced Member
Joined: 1/11/05
SWG: Jess Youngstar(CIA)-Ahazi |
4/23/09 8:42:03 AM#123
Originally posted by BadgerSmaker
We do restrict booze from minors at a later age than most of europe. 21. Never understood why one could serve in the Military but can't drink. Because of my age and when the law changed, I joked "I am a once and future minor." |
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4/23/09 8:54:29 AM#124
Originally posted by BadgerSmaker
I'm surprised you sank this low. America is not "the land of the free, because we have no rules".
All you are trying to do is derail the thread with a ridiculous off topic and completely unrelated issue.
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4/23/09 9:07:44 AM#125
Is the card game gambling? Yes and no, but I think people are blurring the lines and getting the issues confused.
Are the loot cards gambling in a sense of SOE vs The united state of america? It would be an extremely hard case to win. Not that I don't think some talented (or bottom feeding) lawyer could not make a case. It would just be very difficult to prove in a realistic manner. For the most part the star wars trading card game is the same as buying a pack of baseball cards for the chance of getting a rare print for the aftermarket collectable value it offers. The real difference is that it might be argued that soe is in a comtrolling and invested relationship with the aftermarket value of the items since they can only be sold while subscribed to the soe service (swg) and the collectable value of the cards can be used as currency in the actual game (not through 3rd party market, but player to player). Even though the whole concept of the trading card game has gambling undertones, I doubt it is legally gambling.
SOE vs Their customers. Sorry folks, this is gambling, but not in an law breaking las vegas style gambling commission sort of way. John Smedly fully admitted in an interview that the card game was introduced for the sole purpose of soe getting into the real money transaction market. Now ask yourself what you get for the real money you spend on each transaction? A CHANCE to get something. Spending money for the chance to get something is gambling. People can play whatever word games they want, but the truth is right there and that was the goal of soes card game from its very creation. Game developer time was removed from the "free update" cycles and dedicated towards creating the card game. To get the full content of those efforts now requires someone to pay for the chance to aquire it.
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4/23/09 11:22:03 AM#126
Originally posted by JYCowboy In short, yep.
Lol ok thanks Jess, that's what I thought. So, when Virrago says we can't offer these tournaments with entry fees and prizes in certain jurisdictions, it really is just that simple. The entry fees, along with prizes and probably the chance elements in the game, seem to conflict with consumer protection legislation in various jurisdictions. All the maneuvering, posturing etc. by some folks in this thread doesn't seem to invalidate this simple reality that was publicly stated by SOE anyways. Also, for Badger's comments, the UK's recent internet legislation is in fact more restrictive than some in the U.S.. Do some reading fella. Also, Daffid is quite right. Being the land of the free does not mean that corporations are free to abuse consumers and ignore consumer protection legislation. In fact, tolerance for this kind of corporate abuse is at an all time low--and rightly so. Furthermore, it still seems that the key issue is entry fees. Can you play WoW TCG tournaments with prizes in the jurisdictions mentioned? Yes. Why? Apparently because there is no entry fee. Can you play the SOE tournaments that have an entry fee in the same jurisdiction? No. Suggested solution: SOE get rid of the entry fee and let people have some fun. You already charge them for everything they need to play the game in the first place, and you even charge them an ongoing fee to access their cards--cards that you "sell" to people and then still claim to own. Have you really learned anything from years of consumer backlash? P.S. for those that have a hard time seeing the difference between the tournaments (not you btw Jess ^_^). In the SOE tournament with an entry fee, you are paying SOE for a chance to compete in a game of chance for the chance to win prizes. In the WoW tournament you have a chance to compete and a chance to win prizes, but you are not paying Blizzard for the chance to win. BIG difference when it comes to consumer protection legislation. One company is running a product promotional. The other appears to be selling you a chance to win prizes. Therein lies the difference I believe. For those inclined to vent anger on law-makers or consumers, I think you need to recognize that SOE does not have to set their tournaments up like this. They choose to do so, apparently to get more of your cash. Maybe think about that for a bit and let it settle in before you decide where to focus your frustration. |
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4/23/09 5:56:28 PM#127
Originally posted by BadgerSmaker
i am not going to bite your bait in regards to the comparison of freedom to lack of regulations. but what i will say is that you are way off if you sincerely believe (because i have a feeling you are trolling) that gamers are here to defend those laws. what people are in fact discussing is soe's attempt to deceipt their customers, yet again, with a game that is gambling but claims not to be. |
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4/23/09 6:16:38 PM#128
Lets stay on-topic. Thanks. |
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4/24/09 4:38:22 AM#129
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Ahh, I see what your are saying now. I checked and the Event Passes are £0.99 each, I think that they are $0.99 each but I can't check because the Station Store automatically shows me all prices in GBP. So thats £4.95 to enter the tournament, and you are guaranteed a Booster pack worth £1.99. The first prize of "One Galactic Hunters Choose a Loot card and 5 Galactic Hunters Booster Packs" is worth whatever the most sought after Loot Card is going for in terms of Booster Packs, which is maybe 30 Packs making it worth around £59.70 + £9.95 for the 5 Booster packs, so you stand to make around £65 if you win. That is of course if you sell the prizes for real money, not sure how widespread that practice is with tournament winners, they'd have to undercut SoE's own prices to do that I guess so probably not practical. Winning a tournament just seems like a a cheap way of getting whatever loot card you want.
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4/24/09 6:35:49 AM#130
Originally posted by BadgerSmaker
Winning a tournament just seems like a a cheap way of getting whatever loot card you want.
It's funny you would say that because IMO having to play a trading card game is a cheap way of getting an ingame item anyway. |
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4/24/09 7:59:40 AM#131
Originally posted by Suvroc
I got some loot cards in my free packs this month, which was nice. While I was looking at the cost of Event Passes due to this thread I bought the latest Tournament Pack for £5 while I was at it. You get a Loot card that gives you some glowing green eyes (which might be fun on my Sullustian Engineer, been around the radioactive too long perhaps) and three boosters that I can use to trade for other loot as well as a promotional card. Not a bad deal, and it's pay day as well so not too hard to justfiy.
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4/24/09 9:11:27 AM#132
Originally posted by BadgerSmaker
I got some loot cards in my free packs this month, which was nice. While I was looking at the cost of Event Passes due to this thread I bought the latest Tournament Pack for £5 while I was at it. You get a Loot card that gives you some glowing green eyes (which might be fun on my Sullustian Engineer, been around the radioactive too long perhaps) and three boosters that I can use to trade for other loot as well as a promotional card. Not a bad deal, and it's pay day as well so not too hard to justfiy.
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant be cheap. Maybe I should have said "sad" instead of cheap. |
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4/24/09 9:52:05 AM#133
Hehe is this thread still going on? I hate to say it but no I still dont agree on your "opinion" of this game being gambling, but to each is own. Its just become a circular discussion showing the same tired information again and again and again. You compete to win a prize, the prize is in some cases cards. Sometimes their prizes are DVD blue ray players (those are the tournaments I wish I could compete in...). The contests will never ever be international and still be heald online because its simply not possible to take into account all the various laws from all the various countries. If someone from the UK or farther wants to compete in these games online then they will have convince sony to hold UK exclusive online tournaments. I doubt this would happpen. Its not like an american based company holding an international tournament in person in a single state with a single set of rules and you go to them. Anyhow have fun in your continued circular arguments I got tired of this thread about 2 days ago being "told" what to think and what my opinion should be. I simply long for the day when people like Jess who simply discuss dominate these forums instead of what the bulk of conversations are like here. Time to "agree to disagree" |
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I think something everyone is missing is that in system messages, advertisements etc. they encourage people to play in tournaments and the TCG by advertising LOOT as the key phrase. Not to play the game but to participate in it in the CHANCE to get an ingame item. |
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4/24/09 5:20:45 PM#135
Originally posted by Gravez
I think this oversight is partly related to apparent SOE double-speak. When trying to hook people into the loot gamble, they push the possibility of loot rewards. Then when someone calls them on this, they seem to fall back on the, "hey we're just selling cards for a card game" defense. One thing that was a least slightly hopeful to me was hearing some staunch SOE defenders admit that yes people are paying cash for a chance to win loot, and yes the SOE tournaments have people paying entry fees for a chance to win prizes. The admissions seemed reluctant or slow in coming, but they were there. Have to give some credit where credit is due. I saw some acknowledgement that the entry fees are indeed different from the WoW tournament that I listed, and this was a welcome bit of reality testing. Was there an attempt to downplay the entry fee? Well I'm not really sure tbh. Each event pass is apparently quite cheap. Something like 99 cents I believe. However, the tournament you originally cited requires 10 event passes for entry. So, that's 10 dollars paid for a chance to compete in a card game (with a random draw) in the hope of winning a prize. I think that puts things into a more realistic frame. I have no quarrel with people who see this for what it is and choose to participate. Far be it from me to meddle with how they choose to spend their money or entertain themselves. It's the apparent double-speak or attempts to obscure what's really happening that I find troubling. |
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4/24/09 5:46:08 PM#136
There is a definition of gambling in the dictionary...and then there is what each country/state allows/considers as gambling. So until a state ...or majority of states rule it as "gambling" and no longer allows the SOE TCG for SWG...then I don't understand the point of continually complaining. I personally don't see the big deal....I played SWG and only ever opened the free cards and never played the game...but , for some reason, still enjoyed the mmo...never once pointed fingers and screamed injustice to what someone may have obtained from paying for additional card packs. Even when I had my arse handed to me in a PvP encounter.To be honest...I never even noticed . I only canceled it because I like AoC and LotRO better...and try to limit myself to 2 mmos per month. |
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Originally posted by ArcAngel3
I think this oversight is partly related to apparent SOE double-speak. When trying to hook people into the loot gamble, they push the possibility of loot rewards. Then when someone calls them on this, they seem to fall back on the, "hey we're just selling cards for a card game" defense. One thing that was a least slightly hopeful to me was hearing some staunch SOE defenders admit that yes people are paying cash for a chance to win loot, and yes the SOE tournaments have people paying entry fees for a chance to win prizes. The admissions seemed reluctant or slow in coming, but they were there. Have to give some credit where credit is due. I saw some acknowledgement that the entry fees are indeed different from the WoW tournament that I listed, and this was a welcome bit of reality testing. Was there an attempt to downplay the entry fee? Well I'm not really sure tbh. Each event pass is apparently quite cheap. Something like 99 cents I believe. However, the tournament you originally cited requires 10 event passes for entry. So, that's 10 dollars paid for a chance to compete in a card game (with a random draw) in the hope of winning a prize. I think that puts things into a more realistic frame. I have no quarrel with people who see this for what it is and choose to participate. Far be it from me to meddle with how they choose to spend their money or entertain themselves. It's the apparent double-speak or attempts to obscure what's really happening that I find troubling. If noone spoke up or complained about any of these things, we'd see an NGE or TCG scam like this grow into other games, that's my main problem. There is something inherently and ethically wrong with the SOE MMO business model and if they continually get away with money grabbing scams it will affect all existing and upcoming MMOs. What bothers me the most is that EA/Bioware/LA see how many people spend money on this garbage and change the business model for SWTOR. |
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JYCowboy
Advanced Member
Joined: 1/11/05
SWG: Jess Youngstar(CIA)-Ahazi |
4/24/09 7:22:29 PM#138
Originally posted by Gravez
If it can make money, you can bet Lucas Arts will try it as sure as a pig grunts. |
Originally posted by JYCowboy
If it can make money, you can bet Lucas Arts will try it as sure as a pig grunts.
If a game is going to have RMT then they should be upfront about it and not disguise it as something else. What SOE does with the TCG is worse than RMT because you have no guarantee to get what you are "intending" to spend your money on. |
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4/24/09 8:00:58 PM#140
Well this is weird, people that pay to play games that kill stuff to loot things, or raid to loot things always have a chance gain something from it, If there was nothing to possibly gain from looting, mobs, npc's and such what would the fun be, well you do pay for a monthly fee to do so on the major mmo's that are not f2p, you are taking a gamble on equiping your toon with elite gear, mats, or something else in the game, in the end...all mmo's are gambling, you are paying to kill the stuff that requires killing in hopes of the chances are in your favor that something drops to help your toon in the end of it all, bottom line, (of course along with this goes the entertainment you get from trying this game of chance, will this end boss mob drop what I need as this is the millionth time killing it....wahhh wahhh wahhh wahhhh, try again, pay next month and take a spin again) Here is an edit I made, just to show the meaning of gambling, and how mmorpg's are all gambling as you pay money in hopes that a percentage will be in your favor ALL MMORPGS Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period. therefore paying monthly for an mmorpg in hopes to gain something for yourself is gambling ALL MMORPG'S, So how about we send this to congress and say you know millions of peeps are paying monthly on a chance to win something on a percentage of chance for there virtual goods that they own, and they are not being taxed or regulated, All of us would be fubared for our mmo of choice, one last thing I have to say about this to all of you is ...simmer down son, simmer down. playing eq2 and two worlds |
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