Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

The XP split is a drain, that I'll concede, but there are some other elements .. one I've added to the above, as you can see. Reduced risks lead to reduced rewards. Additionally:                                           What Risk? A lot of these solo friendly games have no risk at all. What risk is there in WoW? Having to run back to your corpse? Or having to wait 30 sec to respawn? Risk is minimal in a lot of these games so that point is moot in most cases, and in the games that do have risk, you are right.

A group can complete kill quests faster than solo players, True
A group of 5 can complete "loot x items" as fast as 5 solo players in the same area at the same time. Not necessarily true. A lot of times you get stuck with one or two people that can't get the drops and you have to wait much longer than normal.
Grouping is MUCH easier; you should never die while questing as a group. True
Groups can handle quests several levels above them. True, if the quest is designed for solo play
Groups can handle group quests. These can be soloed in many cases, just look at WoW.
Groups can handle instance quests. If the instance is designed for a group
Because of the previous two, groups often get better item-rewards. As they should                                        But again, for all of those above, you have to factor in the time it takes to form the group, get everyone to where they need to be, make sure/catch everyone up to the same point on quest chains, etc.

To be honest, I wouldn't have a problem with the removal of the XP split (since it wouldn't affect me), but I do think that you're overstating the cons of grouping and not acknowledging the pros.

To be honest, the XP split is my biggest gripe. I thought SWG CU had a pretty nice system where you could get fair XP going solo, but actually got an XP bonus per kill for each member in your group. That made soloing an option, but grouping much faster and much more fun.

 

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Read my comments before about how encouraging soloing kills grouping.

Sidebar: I still don't understand why people who make this argument feel that it's acceptable to remove another players (majority) playstyle purely to benefit their own minority one. Choice is seldom a bad thing. A group-oriented game could easily encourage grouping (increased XP in group or something) while still allowing the option of soloing for those who preferred it.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

The XP split is a drain, that I'll concede, but there are some other elements .. one I've added to the above, as you can see. Reduced risks lead to reduced rewards. Additionally:                                           What Risk? A lot of these solo friendly games have no risk at all. What risk is there in WoW? Having to run back to your corpse? Or having to wait 30 sec to respawn? Risk is minimal in a lot of these games so that point is moot in most cases, and in the games that do have risk, you are right.

If we're talking efficiency of group vs solo, it's clear that groups have an edge in terms of whatever risk exists. Death penalties in WoW certainly aren't overtly harsh, but it's much easier to die solo than as a group, and there's no handy resser so corpse runs, health/mana recovery, rebuffing .. it all takes time.

A group of 5 can complete "loot x items" as fast as 5 solo players in the same area at the same time. Not necessarily true. A lot of times you get stuck with one or two people that can't get the drops and you have to wait much longer than normal.

There's nothing to say that a solo player wouldn't also "get stuck" on the drops, it's happened to me more than once.

Groups can handle group quests. These can be soloed in many cases, just look at WoW.

Some can, dependant on class choice as some are better soloers than others .. and one can typically return once you outlevel the content to solo them .. but if we're talking efficiency then a group has a clear advantage in this area.

Groups can handle instance quests. If the instance is designed for a group

All of WoW's are.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Read my comments before about how encouraging soloing kills grouping.

Sidebar: I still don't understand why people who make this argument feel that it's acceptable to remove another players (majority) playstyle purely to benefit their own minority one. Choice is seldom a bad thing. A group-oriented game could easily encourage grouping (increased XP in group or something) while still allowing the option of soloing for those who preferred it.

 

First of all, you have no proof what so ever that solo play is the majority, so stop saying it.

Secondly, I already explained above. There are tons of games that push soloing over grouping. Yes, you can group, but it isn't as fast as soloing. So why would making grouping the primary form of advancement, and soloing being optional but not as viable, be any different?

And last, not every game needs to be made for the "Majority". In fact, we have seen over the last few years nothing but games for the masses, and frankly they have all sucked pretty bad. It's time to start making games for the "minority", as the "majority" is already playing WoW.

Originally posted by Abrahmm 

First of all, you have no proof what so ever that solo play is the majority, so stop saying it.

I would imagine that the population imbalance between games that have forced-grouping levelling content and those that don't should be proof enough. It is for me. Games with solo content are more popular than those without it. This is irrefutable.

Secondly, I already explained above. There are tons of games that push soloing over grouping. Yes, you can group, but it isn't as fast as soloing. So why would making grouping the primary form of advancement, and soloing being optional but not as viable, be any different?

I still don't agree that soloing is faster than grouping. Especially not in a game that rewarded bonus XP for group kills rather than splitting it WoW-style. Grouping would be more attractive, but still not forced. If you're saying that such a game would still be crippled due to the majority of people choosing to still solo, then I'm going to have to refer you to your first comment in this quoted post.

And last, not every game needs to be made for the "Majority". In fact, we have seen over the last few years nothing but games for the masses, and frankly they have all sucked pretty bad. It's time to start making games for the "minority", as the "majority" is already playing WoW.

This, I feel, would not be a comment that goes down well at a meeting of MMOG investors.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by whatamidoing

"The majority are mostly right when it comes to subscription based services" There's nothing to back that up, that's a totally rash generaliztion.

I'm gonna weigh in on this particular point; since the much-repeated "popular doesn't mean good!" argument is one that is flung around far too often on these forums.

So here goes.

In the MMOG world, popular does mean good.

There's little to no variation in the subscription prices or availability of mainstream MMOGs, so we can reasonably conclude that the popular ones get that way by dint of creating a game that a large number of people consider to be "a good game".

Opinions differ, (as they do in all things), and we all have different likes and dislikes where MMOGs are concerned, but it's unreasonable to operate on the principle that every game that you like is "good" and that every game that you dislike is "bad".

Oh ok, in the MMOG world popular does mean good? Right because there's a rulebook on this type of thing and it's not logical to presume MMOs are products just like anything else and sales numbers don't necessarily mean a product is the best. Wow...how can you be so ignorant and assume so many things?

The same rule applies to mainstream music, to blockbuster movies, to mainstream artforms of anykind, to sports, etc. SALES NUMBERS DO NOT MEAN SOMETHING IS BETTER OR WORSE. Sure there can be a correlation. But is Justin Timberlake any better than Josh Groban? (assuming you know who both of them are and if you don't they're both singers). I don't think so. Sure Justin Timberlake has sold a lot more records, made a ton more money than Josh Groban, but I own more Josh Groban albums than I do Justin Timberlake albums. It's just my preference.

"...we all have different likes and dislikes where MMOGs are concerned, but it's unreasonable to operate on the princliple that every game that you like is "good" and that every game that you dislike is "bad"" Excuse me, but when did I ever say anything like that? How can you say that from the quote you pulled in your message? And I don't believe that I've said WoW sucks or is a bad game, I simply have stated that I don't like it and I prefer a different type of MMO.

You've got some serious issues with disrespecting people and I don't appreciate you completely making up or assuming things that you think I would say. I think I've been very logical and fair with my argument and all you do is come on here and make stupid generalizations and rude remarks with no grouds for doing so.

Oh yeah by the way. Everything is very available to everyone now because of the INTERNET. So how does availability and subscription fees have anything to do with anything?

So if millions of people playing, overly positive critical acclaim from every source, staying in the top of  best selling PC games list  year after year and has the largest, most active community of any MMO in history AND has such a broad base of influence, doesn't make a game good, what possibly does?  What else does a game have to accomplish for it to be considered good to some of you elitist knuckleheads?

I guess a game not many like and gets panned by critics qualifies as good in bazzaro world.  Seriously, you don't ave to like WOW, but you really have to be out of touch to not get it.   Just being popular doesn't necessarily make a game good, but considering everything WOW has done, theres nothing left to qualify it.  Again, MMOs aren't music or food.  You don't pay to eat a hamburger after every bite.  You don't pay everytime you listen to a song.  I'm done since it doesn't matter what some bitter people think.  Facts are facts.  Buh bye.

Originally posted by Josher

So if millions of people playing, overly positive critical acclaim from every source, staying in the top of  best selling PC games list  year after year and has the largest, most active community of any MMO in history AND has such a broad base of influence, doesn't make a game good, what possibly does?  What else does a game have to accomplish for it to be considered good to some of you elitist knuckleheads?

I guess a game not many like and gets panned by critics qualifies as good in bazzaro world.  Seriously, you don't ave to like WOW, but you really have to be out of touch to not get it.   Just being popular doesn't necessarily make a game good, but considering everything WOW has done, theres nothing left to qualify it.  Again, MMOs aren't music or food.  You don't pay to eat a hamburger after every bite.  You don't pay everytime you listen to a song.  I'm done since it doesn't matter what some bitter people think.  Facts are facts.  Buh bye.

 

Maybe you should pull your head out of your ass and read some of the stuff I wrote in this thread. I never said it was a bad game. And I was merely using music as an EXAMPLE (I'm not sure if you've even heard of that though). I never said WoW was a bad game I said I didn't like it and to say it's the best simply because it's popular is stupid. What is the best anyways? I surely think it has more to do with personal preference than subscription numbers and the best is different for every person. Also, I don't think WoW has done anything than be a different type of game just like others in the genre. It became popular because it appealed to a lot of people, some people don't enjoy playing it, end of story.

Originally posted by Josher

So if millions of people playing, overly positive critical acclaim from every source, staying in the top of  best selling PC games list  year after year and has the largest, most active community of any MMO in history AND has such a broad base of influence, doesn't make a game good, what possibly does?  What else does a game have to accomplish for it to be considered good to some of you elitist knuckleheads?

I guess a game not many like and gets panned by critics qualifies as good in bazzaro world.  Seriously, you don't ave to like WOW, but you really have to be out of touch to not get it.   Just being popular doesn't necessarily make a game good, but considering everything WOW has done, theres nothing left to qualify it.  Again, MMOs aren't music or food.  You don't pay to eat a hamburger after every bite.  You don't pay everytime you listen to a song.  I'm done since it doesn't matter what some bitter people think.  Facts are facts.  Buh bye. 

Slightly less diplomatic than how I'd put it, but since it's late I'll just go with "yeah, what he said". :-p

Originally posted by Abrahmm

First of all, you have no proof what so ever that solo play is the majority, so stop saying it.

Daedalus project has two surveys that are somewhat related to this:

First: 7% solo content, 6% causual small group content, 4% grouping, 2 % high-level end-game content.

Second: Solo content and 5-man instances most popular.

Originally posted by Dreamagram

Originally posted by Abrahmm

First of all, you have no proof what so ever that solo play is the majority, so stop saying it.

Daedalus project has two surveys that are somewhat related to this:

First: 7% solo content, 6% causual small group content, 4% grouping, 2 % high-level end-game content.

Second: Solo content and 5-man instances most popular.

I do not know the numbers but i know what i see. Games with little solo content do not do as well as those that include solo play as an option. WOW and LOTRO come to mind as those that have a decent and in WOW's case a huge population and they are both SOLO friendly. Anyone know if any games that have little solo play and forced grouping that  have these kinds of population numbers? Think it about it. Just because you want forced grouping doesnt make it a fact that most people do.

Ok the relpy i posted here was removed from this thread,I dont understand why but when I login here it seem I got 1 new message but if I check my messages it is empty.Well I dont understand why the reply was deletet but maby the moderators are getting payed from blizzard  for deleting posts that are not wow friendly,I'm gona paste my original reply here and I bet that will get me perma banned from these forums, and in that case I dont care. It seem to me that you are wellcome to troll and talk shit about some games but if you say you dont like another game the threads are deletet and you get banned.I wish to find a good mmorpg forum that are not bought by blizzard or any other developer so you are allowed to say what you want about any game you wish to love ore hate.

Here is what I wrote and this harmeless words were removed from here just becouse mmorpg. com seem to get payed by blizzard.

"I must say that I love wow,dont missunderstand me I dont like to play that game at all but it keeps most of the arrogant childish gamers from real mmorpg's and therfore most other mmo games have a great comunity free of those kids whoms parents pay wow's monthly fee just to get rid of their kids."
 

Well now befor I push the reply buttom Ill copy this for later use.

Originally posted by Vidir

Ok the relpy i posted here was removed from this thread,I dont understand why but when I login here it seem I got 1 new message but if I check my messages it is empty.Well I dont understand why the reply was deletet but maby the moderators are getting payed from blizzard  for deleting posts that are not wow friendly,I'm gona paste my original reply here and I bet that will get me perma banned from these forums, and in that case I dont care. It seem to me that you are wellcome to troll and talk shit about some games but if you say you dont like another game the threads are deletet and you get banned.I wish to find a good mmorpg forum that are not bought by blizzard or any other developer so you are allowed to say what you want about any game you wish to love ore hate.

Here is what I wrote and this harmeless words were removed from here just becouse mmorpg. com seem to get payed by blizzard.

"I must say that I love wow,dont missunderstand me I dont like to play that game at all but it keeps most of the arrogant childish gamers from real mmorpg's and therfore most other mmo games have a great comunity free of those kids whoms parents pay wow's monthly fee just to get rid of their kids."
 

Well now befor I push the reply buttom Ill copy this for later use.

That's hilarious that you don't understand why it was taken down.

You didn't criticize the game, you criticized the people who play a game......oh what am I explaining for - you can't possibly understand.

I really wouldn't say WoW is a casual game.

It might be casual while your level and such (which was fun... untill you have to replace the armor you got off a instance boss with a crappy green you got off a quest)

But it isn't casual once you hit max lvl (80 now)

I play MMORPGs because It's massive and it's online. I like to play with other people and make new friends.

Once you reach the max lvl in WoW it seems that if the people around you are playing 12 hours more than you.... you seem to get left behind.... having to collect armor and moneies by yourself.

And finally when you are acturally able to play with other people a new content arrives and people start getting even better armor and stats and leave you behind again :'(

I also don't like the fact in WoW that there everyone at max level's armor and stats pretty much is the same...

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vidir

Ok the relpy i posted here was removed from this thread,I dont understand why but when I login here it seem I got 1 new message but if I check my messages it is empty.Well I dont understand why the reply was deletet but maby the moderators are getting payed from blizzard  for deleting posts that are not wow friendly,I'm gona paste my original reply here and I bet that will get me perma banned from these forums, and in that case I dont care. It seem to me that you are wellcome to troll and talk shit about some games but if you say you dont like another game the threads are deletet and you get banned.I wish to find a good mmorpg forum that are not bought by blizzard or any other developer so you are allowed to say what you want about any game you wish to love ore hate.

Here is what I wrote and this harmeless words were removed from here just becouse mmorpg. com seem to get payed by blizzard.

"I must say that I love wow,dont missunderstand me I dont like to play that game at all but it keeps most of the arrogant childish gamers from real mmorpg's and therfore most other mmo games have a great comunity free of those kids whoms parents pay wow's monthly fee just to get rid of their kids."
 

Well now befor I push the reply buttom Ill copy this for later use.

 

That's hilarious that you don't understand why it was taken down.

You didn't criticize the game, you criticized the people who play a game......oh what am I explaining for - you can't possibly understand.

I very much understand why im getting banned , that is becouse I did say something about blizzards game and wow's comunity, those same words spoken about darkfall or EQ" would not have resultet in same.

How do you define 'beating WoW'?

If you mean in population/subscription numbers, to be honest I could not care less.

However, what I do want:

Is a game to be released that 'beats' WoW in performance and polish. Bar none, WoW is still the most polished, professional smooth running mmo on the market. Gameplay aspects set aside, this has been the mark all other mmo's released since have missed. They tried to do something different with combat, or crafting, or pvp, or whatever....but what they release has not been anywhere near the mark set by blizzard in completeness, continuity, smoothness, etc. I know WoW released with it's own problems, yet, it is obvious to me that their attitude in addressing performance issues, content issues, etc. was to 'do it right' rather than have to 'do it over'. VG, AoC and WAR all would have done much better in the market if they all didn't look like some sort of frankenstein beast upon release rather than an 'organic whole' the way WoW did and still does.

What I mean by that, is I don't care if the game has a huge population, but I'd like for a game to be released that actually surpasses the bar on performance and polish in addition to its 'niche' features. That's what we need, is a game that measures up to or surpasses Blizzard's quality control.

Originally posted by Vidir

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vidir

Ok the relpy i posted here was removed from this thread,I dont understand why but when I login here it seem I got 1 new message but if I check my messages it is empty.Well I dont understand why the reply was deletet but maby the moderators are getting payed from blizzard  for deleting posts that are not wow friendly,I'm gona paste my original reply here and I bet that will get me perma banned from these forums, and in that case I dont care. It seem to me that you are wellcome to troll and talk shit about some games but if you say you dont like another game the threads are deletet and you get banned.I wish to find a good mmorpg forum that are not bought by blizzard or any other developer so you are allowed to say what you want about any game you wish to love ore hate.

Here is what I wrote and this harmeless words were removed from here just becouse mmorpg. com seem to get payed by blizzard.

"I must say that I love wow,dont missunderstand me I dont like to play that game at all but it keeps most of the arrogant childish gamers from real mmorpg's and therfore most other mmo games have a great comunity free of those kids whoms parents pay wow's monthly fee just to get rid of their kids."
 

Well now befor I push the reply buttom Ill copy this for later use.

 

That's hilarious that you don't understand why it was taken down.

You didn't criticize the game, you criticized the people who play a game......oh what am I explaining for - you can't possibly understand.

 

I very much understand why im getting banned , that is becouse I did say something about blizzards game and wow's comunity, those same words spoken about darkfall or EQ" would not have resultet in same.

I hear they have coded messages in your Alphabits cereal too.

Have to agree with the OP, I just want a good game that caters to my tastes.  If there's ever to be a WOW killer it will have to cater to the casual gaming crowd just like WOW does, therefore it probably won't appeal to me. (for long anyways)

WOW is what it is, nothing I really concern myself over for quite some time.

WoW isn't casual why can't you people understand this~~~~~~~

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vidir

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vidir

Ok the relpy i posted here was removed from this thread,I dont understand why but when I login here it seem I got 1 new message but if I check my messages it is empty.Well I dont understand why the reply was deletet but maby the moderators are getting payed from blizzard  for deleting posts that are not wow friendly,I'm gona paste my original reply here and I bet that will get me perma banned from these forums, and in that case I dont care. It seem to me that you are wellcome to troll and talk shit about some games but if you say you dont like another game the threads are deletet and you get banned.I wish to find a good mmorpg forum that are not bought by blizzard or any other developer so you are allowed to say what you want about any game you wish to love ore hate.

Here is what I wrote and this harmeless words were removed from here just becouse mmorpg. com seem to get payed by blizzard.

"I must say that I love wow,dont missunderstand me I dont like to play that game at all but it keeps most of the arrogant childish gamers from real mmorpg's and therfore most other mmo games have a great comunity free of those kids whoms parents pay wow's monthly fee just to get rid of their kids."
 

Well now befor I push the reply buttom Ill copy this for later use.

 

That's hilarious that you don't understand why it was taken down.

You didn't criticize the game, you criticized the people who play a game......oh what am I explaining for - you can't possibly understand.

 

I very much understand why im getting banned , that is becouse I did say something about blizzards game and wow's comunity, those same words spoken about darkfall or EQ" would not have resultet in same.

 

I hear they have coded messages in your Alphabits cereal too.

Om du bara viste hur djävla dum du är, du tror att du är bäst i världen pressis som alla andra amerikanare, så fatttar inte du att det finns andra språk än engelska och just därför är du pressis lika dum som dina landsman som tror att amerika gränsar mot texas i söder.