You do not want a game that can compete with WoW. if you like WoW, then you're happy with the MMROPG market right now, and you can go play WoW.

if you don't like WoW, you're trolling forums like this one, reading about MMORPGs and looking for something good to releasee. you're disappointed by the latest releases like AoC, WAR, Darkfall, etc.

And some of you are wondering when WoW will finally fall as the King of the MMORPG hill, when some game that is newer and better than WoW will finally come out to knock WoW off the top of the hill.

Why? Who cares really? When you think about it, any game that beats WoW will be like WoW. It will be a casual, solo friendly game for the masses. If I wanted that, I'd just go play WoW right now.

I'm looking for something different. So it won't matter to me when some game beats WoW, because I won't like it, and neither will you.

What you want is a game that is successful enough to stay in business, 100 to 200K subs, and caters to the niche game design you are looking for. That's not going to be a WoW killer, so why ask for one?

Oh nifty a thread win with the Opening Post.

Yes that is me agreeing.

What I want is a topic to kill all of these "WoW is king", "WoW-killer", "Why WoW is great" threads.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

You do not want a game that can compete with WoW. if you like WoW, then you're happy with the MMROPG market right now, and you can go play WoW.

if you don't like WoW, you're trolling forums like this one, reading about MMORPGs and looking for something good to releasee. you're disappointed by the latest releases like AoC, WAR, Darkfall, etc.

And some of you are wondering when WoW will finally fall as the King of the MMORPG hill, when some game that is newer and better than WoW will finally come out to knock WoW off the top of the hill.

Why? Who cares really? When you think about it, any game that beats WoW will be like WoW. It will be a casual, solo friendly game for the masses. If I wanted that, I'd just go play WoW right now.

I'm looking for something different. So it won't matter to me when some game beats WoW, because I won't like it, and neither will you.

What you want is a game that is successful enough to stay in business, 100 to 200K subs, and caters to the niche game design you are looking for. That's not going to be a WoW killer, so why ask for one?

QFT

Some people just have it in for things that are "popular" and "mainstream", almost to the point of mindless fanaticism.  Personally, I agree, who cares if a game is a "WoW" killer.  If enough people play it to keep it afloat, and keep it interesting, then that is all that is needed.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

You do not want a game that can compete with WoW. if you like WoW, then you're happy with the MMROPG market right now, and you can go play WoW.

if you don't like WoW, you're trolling forums like this one, reading about MMORPGs and looking for something good to releasee. you're disappointed by the latest releases like AoC, WAR, Darkfall, etc.

And some of you are wondering when WoW will finally fall as the King of the MMORPG hill, when some game that is newer and better than WoW will finally come out to knock WoW off the top of the hill.

Why? Who cares really? When you think about it, any game that beats WoW will be like WoW. It will be a casual, solo friendly game for the masses. If I wanted that, I'd just go play WoW right now.

I'm looking for something different. So it won't matter to me when some game beats WoW, because I won't like it, and neither will you.

What you want is a game that is successful enough to stay in business, 100 to 200K subs, and caters to the niche game design you are looking for. That's not going to be a WoW killer, so why ask for one?

It's not only WoW-haters and hardcore/sandbox fans who like to troll these forums.

I like WoW. That doesn't mean that I'm happy with the current state of the genre.

I would love to see another MMOG come onto the scene the exceeds WoW's limitations and improves on its core concepts. By MMOG terms, WoW's an old man now. Even it's most ardent devotees would like to see an heir.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

It's not only WoW-haters and hardcore/sandbox fans who like to troll these forums.

I like WoW. That doesn't mean that I'm happy with the current state of the genre.

I would love to see another MMOG come onto the scene the exceeds WoW's limitations and improves on its core concepts. By MMOG terms, WoW's an old man now. Even it's most ardent devotees would like to see an heir.

 

 

I"m not sure what you are trying to say here. If you are saying, I want a game that exceeds WoW's limitations because it will have very different features than WoW, then it will NOT be as popular as WoW, it will NOT be a WoW killer.

if you are saying, WoW is great, I want an even better solo friendly casual game to play! then OK, I'm sure it could be very, very popular, but that's exactly what I don't want to play, which is why I'm not playing WoW now.

Sure, you can remake WoW with a different genre (sci fi instead of fantasy), and you can update the graphics. But how are you going to maek it even easier and even more solo friendly? Is taht possible?

I don't listen to MMO recomendations from people that hate WoW.

That's like listening to gaming recomendations from someone who hates shooters(I'd play an RTS over a shooter anyday of the week though).   Considering how much WoW derives from older games(World of Everclone games) that's nearly the same type of comparison.

I have no personal interest in a game to beat WoW (in terms of subscribtion numbers).

Eventually another game will come along and take the throne, it's just a matter of time.

WoW has been, and still is, critisised for being a simplistic and in many ways a childish game. It has lowered the bar for who can join in and enjoy an mmorpg.

This is both a blessing and a curse for the mmo playing community. It has brought a throng of new players to the arena. Many that started off their mmo career playing WoW has now moved on to other mmo's.

It has increased the interest of companies to develop new games in the genre. This has led to a whole industry of WoW clones, but this in turn has made us all hunger for something new and different. If you check out the list of mmo's on this site you'll find that a large majority is within the fantasy genre, but if you filter by rating/hype you'll see that among the top 20 there are only seven games classified as a fantasy game.

Times they are a changing, and with a large mmo playing community we can expect more games to be developed, and more to survive.

well, i personally dont want a new WoW, but I want an mmo that immerses me as much as wow did, something no mmo has been able to do so far.

Originally posted by paulscott

I don't listen to MMO recomendations from people that hate WoW.

That's like listening to gaming recomendations from someone who hates shooters(I'd play an RTS over a shooter anyday of the week though).   Considering how much WoW derives from older games(World of Everclone games) that's nearly the same type of comparison.

I am not bashing WoW. It's a very well made MMORPG. Who's going to argue that the most popular game in MMORPG history is the biggest piece of crap? That would be stupid.

I'm just saying that the things that make WoW popular, and the things I DON"T want in an MMORPG. Therefore, the game that beats WoW will be popular, and will have those features, meaning no matter what game beats WoW, I'm not going to enjoy playing it.

I think sometimes people thing that a game with new and innovative features is going to be the WoW killer, like for example those that want a Massive Online First Person Shooter game or something. No, it's going to be a game that's just as casual and solo friendly as WoW, with nothing particulary innovative that is the next big thing.

It's not going to be a FPS version of an MMO, it's not going to be a big roleplaying game, it's not going to be an FFA PvP game, it's not going to be a great sandbox game, or any of those things.

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Originally posted by paulscott
I don't listen to MMO recomendations from people that hate WoW.
That's like listening to gaming recomendations from someone who hates shooters(I'd play an RTS over a shooter anyday of the week though).   Considering how much WoW derives from older games(World of Everclone games) that's nearly the same type of comparison.

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that is the daftest post I've ever read..

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Originally posted by Hazmal
What I want is a topic to kill all of these "WoW is king", "WoW-killer", "Why WoW is great" threads.

---

it does get very boring.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

I"m not sure what you are trying to say here. If you are saying, I want a game that exceeds WoW's limitations because it will have very different features than WoW, then it will NOT be as popular as WoW, it will NOT be a WoW killer.

if you are saying, WoW is great, I want an even better solo friendly casual game to play! then OK, I'm sure it could be very, very popular, but that's exactly what I don't want to play, which is why I'm not playing WoW now.

The latter; I want a game that has core mechanics like WoW, but is better.

And you're welcome to your own opinions. You clearly do not want a WoW-killer, but the problem is that you're projecting your opinion and telling everyone else that they don't want a WoW-killer either, and some of us do.

Sure, you can remake WoW with a different genre (sci fi instead of fantasy), and you can update the graphics. But how are you going to maek it even easier and even more solo friendly? Is taht possible?

WoW's solo-friendly/simplicity is much over-stated.

Sure, you can go from level 1 to 80 without grouping, but once you hit the max level, the vast majority of meaningful content is not in the least bit solo-friendly. It's 5 man, 10 man, 25 man PVE instances, 2-5 man PVP arenas, large-scale PVP battlegrounds and zones .. and though the levelling process and entry-level end-game instances are fairly easy, the high-end ones are most certainly not.

The improvements I would like to see are things along the lines of implementing collision detection, improving line-of-sight and adding things such as aerial and mounted combat.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

I"m not sure what you are trying to say here. If you are saying, I want a game that exceeds WoW's limitations because it will have very different features than WoW, then it will NOT be as popular as WoW, it will NOT be a WoW killer.

if you are saying, WoW is great, I want an even better solo friendly casual game to play! then OK, I'm sure it could be very, very popular, but that's exactly what I don't want to play, which is why I'm not playing WoW now.

The latter; I want a game that has core mechanics like WoW, but is better.

And you're welcome to your own opinions. You clearly do not want a WoW-killer, but the problem is that you're projecting your opinion and telling everyone else that they don't want a WoW-killer either, and some of us do.

Sure, you can remake WoW with a different genre (sci fi instead of fantasy), and you can update the graphics. But how are you going to maek it even easier and even more solo friendly? Is taht possible?

WoW's solo-friendly/simplicity is much over-stated.

Sure, you can go from level 1 to 80 without grouping, but once you hit the max level, the vast majority of meaningful content is not in the least bit solo-friendly. It's 5 man, 10 man, 25 man PVE instances, 2-5 man PVP arenas, large-scale PVP battlegrounds and zones .. and though the levelling process and entry-level end-game instances are fairly easy, the high-end ones are most certainly not.

The improvements I would like to see are things along the lines of implementing collision detection, improving line-of-sight and adding things such as aerial and mounted combat.

 

 

I admit my post does not apply to you, nor anyone simply looking for a better version of WoW. For you, and those like you, the WoW killer is exactly what you are looking for.

I do realize that the end content of WoW, raiding, is not solo friendly. I don't care much for raids, didn't in EQ either, so I'm primarily concerened with the pre-end game part of the game, unless you are talking about PvP, in which case I like RvR.

I prefer good grouping design during leveling, not end game in raiding.

Why would you want a game that is solo friendly, then NOT solo friendly at the end? I'd rather have a game that is not solo friendly for the entire game.

Why would my play preference suddenly change at the end of the game?

WoW isnt exactly a game that had the same face for its entire lifespan.

I am pretty sure there is a large number of players who enjoyed classic WoW, maybe BC, but are not happy with the changes to the game.

Face it, WoW as it was at its release, and when it got huge, was a very different, much more interesting and certainly more social game than it is now. Burning Crusade, but especially WotLK, have changed the game fundamentally, to the point where little other than looks and name are still what it used to be.

A lot of people want a game similar to the classic WoW. That doesnt mean we like the WoW as it is right now, and can therefore just play that. WotLK is simply not a good game.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

I admit my post does not apply to you, nor anyone simply looking for a better version of WoW. For you, and those like you, the WoW killer is exactly what you are looking for.

I do realize that the end content of WoW, raiding, is not solo friendly. I don't care much for raids, didn't in EQ either, so I'm primarily concerened with the pre-end game part of the game, unless you are talking about PvP, in which case I like RvR.

I prefer good grouping design during leveling, not end game in raiding.

The most popular model at the moment is to give the player the choice. Games like AoC, WAR, WoW .. you can level 100% solo, or group up .. depending on your preference. If a game has to have the levelling process, then allowing the players the flexibility of how they experience it is probably the best way to go about it.

Why would you want a game that is solo friendly, then NOT solo friendly at the end? I'd rather have a game that is not solo friendly for the entire game.

Why would my play preference suddenly change at the end of the game?

You do have a very good point here, and it's one of the most valid criticisms of the game; if you like raiding/grouping then you're ok .. you can group-quest and do instances throughout the whole levelling process.

Conversely, if you love the solo playstyle then you only really get to experience it for 80 levels then all of a sudden you're forced to group in order to achieve anything meaningful. I would definately like to see more challenging and rewarding solo level 80 content in WoW. Rep grinds and a poor crafting system don't add much to the solo experience.

I'd never be daft enough to claim that WoW is perfect, which is why I'd love to see these limitations/problems addressed in the successor which is sure to come one day.

Originally posted by Khaunshar

WoW isnt exactly a game that had the same face for its entire lifespan.

I am pretty sure there is a large number of players who enjoyed classic WoW, maybe BC, but are not happy with the changes to the game.

Face it, WoW as it was at its release, and when it got huge, was a very different, much more interesting and certainly more social game than it is now. Burning Crusade, but especially WotLK, have changed the game fundamentally, to the point where little other than looks and name are still what it used to be.

A lot of people want a game similar to the classic WoW. That doesnt mean we like the WoW as it is right now, and can therefore just play that. WotLK is simply not a good game.

I disagree with this; I actually prefer WotLK to the old PvP ranking, 40 man raiding madness of vanilla WoW.

As a casual gamer, I'm very happy with the way the game has changed over the years .. it's become much more casual friendly and the content has improved considerably. Some of the quests in WotLK are much more complex and entertaining than the majority of the old vanilla ones.

Still too many "kill x boars" though.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

I admit my post does not apply to you, nor anyone simply looking for a better version of WoW. For you, and those like you, the WoW killer is exactly what you are looking for.

I do realize that the end content of WoW, raiding, is not solo friendly. I don't care much for raids, didn't in EQ either, so I'm primarily concerened with the pre-end game part of the game, unless you are talking about PvP, in which case I like RvR.

I prefer good grouping design during leveling, not end game in raiding.

The most popular model at the moment is to give the player the choice. Games like AoC, WAR, WoW .. you can level 100% solo, or group up .. depending on your preference. If a game has to have the levelling process, then allowing the players the flexibility of how they experience it is probably the best way to go about it.

Why would you want a game that is solo friendly, then NOT solo friendly at the end? I'd rather have a game that is not solo friendly for the entire game.

Why would my play preference suddenly change at the end of the game?

You do have a very good point here, and it's one of the most valid criticisms of the game; if you like raiding/grouping then you're ok .. you can group-quest and do instances throughout the whole levelling process.

Conversely, if you love the solo playstyle then you only really get to experience it for 80 levels then all of a sudden you're forced to group in order to achieve anything meaningful. I would definately like to see more challenging and rewarding solo level 80 content in WoW. Rep grinds and a poor crafting system don't add much to the solo experience.

I'd never be daft enough to claim that WoW is perfect, which is why I'd love to see these limitations/problems addressed in the successor which is sure to come one day.

 

 

We are looking for games that are exactly the opposite. You want to ad solo content to the end game of WoW (and I can see that happening in either a WoW expansion, or the WoW killer), I want to get rid fo the solo friendly aspect, and prefer a game that is more geared towards grouping for the entire game.

EQ and DAoC (before any expansions) had the solo aspect of the game just right as far as I'm concerned. You COULD solo, but it was very, very slow compared to grouping. Perfect.

It does seem wierd that your game play preference would change at the end of the game.

If you're like me and prefer a grouping game, then why would I slug through boring non-grouping required content for 80 levels, just to get to the good stuff, which isn't really waht I'm looking for since it's "raid" content,  not just group content?

If you like to solo, then why suddenly go from the solo conent you like,  to raiding content?

I agree with you. Add solo content to the end game of WoW, OR make a game that is group orientated for the entire game, makes more sense.

But, obviously I'm wrong, becasue WoW is popular the way it is, with a solo game that leads to a raiding game.

 Personally, I do not want WoW to fail simply for the sake of watching it fail.  If the only effect of WoW failing were to be a decrease in subscription rates for WoW, then I wouldn't see the point in wishing WoW ill.

However, that is not the only impact that WoW has.  As long as WoW remains the  standard  for MMORPGs (and surely it is by virtue of it's size and success alone), then innovation will be somewhat limited.  Developers, despite having supposedly functioning brains, continue to produce WoW clones.  I just want that to end!  If seeing WoW fail is necessary for that, then so be it!  (Of course, by fail I mean, lose subscriptions because people lose interest in it).

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

We are looking for games that are exactly the opposite. You want to ad solo content to the end game of WoW (and I can see that happening in either a WoW expansion, or the WoW killer), I want to get rid fo the solo friendly aspect, and prefer a game that is more geared towards grouping for the entire game.

Now, this I can never understand .. in a game that offers solo or group friendly levelling, I would never seek to remove the group friendly option on the basis that I prefer soloing. I'd rather play a game with both, so that I could choose what to do and when to do it.

EQ and DAoC (before any expansions) had the solo aspect of the game just right as far as I'm concerned. You COULD solo, but it was very, very slow compared to grouping. Perfect.

It does seem wierd that your game play preference would change at the end of the game.

If you're like me and prefer a grouping game, then why would I slug through boring non-grouping required content for 80 levels, just to get to the good stuff, which isn't really waht I'm looking for since it's "raid" content,  not just group content?

If you like to solo, then why suddenly go from the solo conent you like,  to raiding content?

I agree with you. Add solo content to the end game of WoW, OR make a game that is group orientated for the entire game, makes more sense.

DDO tried the latter and the game nearly died right out of the gate. The amount of people who prefer exclusive grouping games is such a small minority that I doubt any game investors would be willing to nerf their potential subscriptions by eliminating the solo aspect. It's bad business practice.

But, obviously I'm wrong, becasue WoW is popular the way it is, with a solo game that leads to a raiding game

WoW's raiding end-game is "raiding lite" though; as a casual gamer who plays ~15 hours a week, I can easily accommodate WoW raiding. It's not a 40 hour a week commitment like it used to be. That's a blessing, at least.