This... Will not end well. I don't want to start a flamewar. Not only that, you can stay assured, that I will ignore, consider and maybe even agree on most of your points. Maybe even change my mind.

But anyway. That's not, what I wanted to talk about. Today, after a long stroll trough the forums, especially the "Why have no game reached WoW's sucsses" thread, I've stumbled upon a messy THE END IS NIGH sign in my hand. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, for me MMORPGs are dead. Am I going to stop playing them? Surely, no. But... Try to read, what I have to say.

Where can the industry go from now on? Ask yourself this question, I beg of you. Oh, sure, we have... Old Republic! And Aion! And Champions, ooh, some people actually care about them! But we still have, and will have WoW. Giant collosus of a game, steaming past all the others, on blood and sweat of Chinese goldfarmers, teenage raiders and casual gamers. Will they be able to best it?

The answer... Is a resounding "of, bloody, course, no". Not in another 5+ years. And you know why? If not, you're either really an upbeat and optimistic person (and I envy you to death), a little stupid in the head, or very-very high. Possibly a combination of these. But I will spell it anyway. It's because it's WoW.

Am I bashing WoW? Or, say, Blizzard? No. I don't like them, but I won't be able to tell you with a straight face, that it's a bad game. Because it's not. It's a good game. Just not as good, as some people tend to think.

See the underscore? That is my main problem and gripe with WoW and MMOs today, in general. The community. And it's, at least partially, WoW's fault.

It's hard for me, to decide exactly, where to start. But I'll try anyway. I won't get into the whole "ooh, grandparents, teenagers, non-gamers" and the like. No. It's been done. But I will try to get into the head of a spherical MMO player in tight vacuum. You.

When WoW was released, it seemed like the best thing, since the cardboard box. Bunch of good ideas taken from other MMOs, well known IP, all polished to near-perfection (as much, as it can be said about a MMO...) and it left that snobby EQ in the dust. Happy town for all around, wasn't it? But then you told your friends. And they told their friends. And their friends liked sport cars, stole your girlfriend or gave you a paycheck. Yes, suddenly, your mecca, your little haven was invaded by those alien entities. Non-geeks.

At first it seemed well and good - the game recieved more money, that meant it would only get better and, hopefully, you could convince those snobby EQ bastards to make a switch.

But time flew by and, little by little, you grew tired and bored of WoW. Maybe it was the community, maybe the endgame raiding was too much, or the constant class reshiftings and rebalancings got to you... So you decided to branch out and try something new, right?

And then, uh-oh. It's too late. The games are either a poor man's version of WoW, snobby oldschoolers or something weird, alien and buggy. "The rush to the first" has already ended, decided and written in stone. And even if you genuinly like your new game, you would grow tired and jaded of it, just like you did with WoW, only at an increased rate. And with every game you try (if you are bothered enough, to try more, than one) this time would only shorten. And eventually you would switch back. Maybe it was the nostalgia. Maybe it was the community, you missed, old buddies, and such. Or maybe you can't even explain it yourself. But you just seem to come back, time and time again.

Welcome, to WoW playing cycle. A thing, that can kill the industry altogether.

Think about it... Modern high-class P2P MMORPGs take a lot, no wait, O WHOLE FREAKIN' LOT of money to develop and support. But, sooner or later, most developers will utter one, and one phrase only. "Why bother?". The WoW is not liked because it's a great game, or an easy game, or an acsessible game, no! The WoW is liked... Because "everyone I know, plays it..."

That's why people hate WoW. That's why people flame it. That's why in a lot of other MMOs people will snarl, upon hearing it's name. That's why people still play it.

I won't even talk about the game itself. I want to talk about the phenomena, that is WoW. No other game is played nearly exclusively in its genre. Yes, there are EVE and Maplestory, but when it comes to it... Everyone plays WoW. Want to do a fun experiment? Go to your guildchat, and tell people about another interesting MMO, they could check out, maybe branch out a little, give it a try. In WoW you would, most likely, get "why bother, I have a good toon here.". In others, the answer have a much higher chance of being positive.

Maybe, the problem is in the whole WoW mentality - weaving at least 60-70% of its premise on personal, rather, than group achievments. Not achievment points, just achievments. You could easily solo from one to cap with any class. And, while not inheritly bad, it alienates people, from grouping, for anything but personal gain (read - gear). And, really, starting anew, in some unknown location, ripe for exploration, is such a bother, right?

Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm just pissed off at WoW, for being "The Big Man", who "Brings The Brutha Down". But... I'm a MMO newbie myself. I've only started playing them in 2006, even though I've at least trialed most of P2P, and quite a lot of F2P. I should like WoW! I should like the solo aspect and its similarities to EQ2 circa late 2006.

But then I look at people. I ask them "would you give it a try? Something new, different? Something unexplored?". And I'll hear them answer me "why bother?". And I fear, that when the next big one, truly shining example of craftsmanship in MMO form will arrive... People just "won't bother".

Thank you for reading this. I hope somebody will prove me wrong.

Just wait for a new game like AC, EQ then your MMO interest will bounce back high.

Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Just wait for a new game like AC, EQ then your MMO interest will bounce back high.

I... Don't think you get my point. It's not the games. It's the people.

I could prove ya right Goro,

sometimes ya just gotta let people "cultivate" things in their mind for a while. I noticed in alot of forums it can easily take 6 month sometimes longer. One thread may go down without a response, but the second may get a few minds who have adjusted quickly to new ideas. Then something vague but simular officially gets released and suddenly it's a great idea, hehe..

whatcha think about this:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=228442601&blogId=479864964

Originally posted by Goronian

Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Just wait for a new game like AC, EQ then your MMO interest will bounce back high.

I... Don't think you get my point. It's not the games. It's the people.

People are the root of all problems.   Unfortunately, we can't get ride of them, only hope that stupidity will kill itself off.

Some day I will finish my work on the neuro-scanner for newborns so we can sterilize stupidity before it can procreate.
 

If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people?  That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games. 

Originally posted by Goronian

Originally posted by Kain_Dale

Just wait for a new game like AC, EQ then your MMO interest will bounce back high.

I... Don't think you get my point. It's not the games. It's the people.

Well,  I have 1 thing to say is, people gain MMORPG experince everday.

OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre.

Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word.

Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden.

Human lemmings, all.

As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play.

A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment.

We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.

Originally posted by jhypsyshah

I could prove ya right Goro,

sometimes ya just gotta let people "cultivate" things in their mind for a while. I noticed in alot of forums it can easily take 6 month sometimes longer. One thread may go down without a response, but the second may get a few minds who have adjusted quickly to new ideas. Then something vague but simular officially gets released and suddenly it's a great idea, hehe..

whatcha think about this:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=228442601&blogId=479864964

My first thought was "hey, that's pretty neat". The second "all right, who stole my idea?". The third "what does this have to do with the thread?".

Being a self-confessed MMOG newbie with 3 years of experience, I can see why you would blame WoW for every problem in the genre today. It has undoubtably dominated the market during that time, but here's the thing .. the player-experience has never really changed.

MMOGers have always bounced from game to game in search of "the next fun thing" .. it happened before WoW was on the scene and it will happen long after WoW falls by the wayside. It's just the way things are.

---

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre.
Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word.
Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden.
Human lemmings, all.
As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play.
A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment.
We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.

---

---

Originally posted by Quizzical

If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.

---

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Being a self-confessed MMOG newbie with 3 years of experience, I can see why you would blame WoW for every problem in the genre today. It has undoubtably dominated the market during that time, but here's the thing .. the player-experience has never really changed.

MMOGers have always bounced from game to game in search of "the next fun thing" .. it happened before WoW was on the scene and it will happen long after WoW falls by the wayside. It's just the way things are.

It's not the fact, that people bounce. It's the fact, that people bounce, and then still return to WoW.

Originally posted by Goronian

It's not the fact, that people bounce. It's the fact, that people bounce, and then still return to WoW.

There's a reason for that; it's actually a very fun game if you're an average player.

It's important to define what the average player is at this point; studies have shown that:

The average age is 25-30 years old.
The average MMOGer is in full time employment/education. (only 10% are unemployed)
The average hours per week is 22.

22 hours is not a vast amount of time; and WoW easily has enough content to ensure that anyone playing 22 hours a week will be able to do so for a long time before the burn-out sets in.

The problem is with the people, but it's not with the average gamer .. it's with those on the fringes; the minorities who seem to feel that the genre should change to reflect their preferences rather than the majority. It's egotistical, ridiculous, and clearly not going to happen.

While the "l33t k1d5" like Wharg0ul delight in looking down on WoW because it's not a hardcore game, they are merely another minority and are best left to fester in their own pit of resentment at the genre that left them behind.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Goronian

It's not the fact, that people bounce. It's the fact, that people bounce, and then still return to WoW.

There's a reason for that; it's actually a very fun game if you're an average player.

It's important to define what the average player is at this point; studies have shown that:

The average age is 25-30 years old.
The average MMOGer is in full time employment/education. (only 10% are unemployed)
The average hours per week is 22.

22 hours is not a vast amount of time; and WoW easily has enough content to ensure that anyone playing 22 hours a week will be able to do so for a long time before the burn-out sets in.

The problem is with the people, but it's not with the average gamer .. it's with those on the fringes; the minorities who seem to feel that the genre should change to reflect their preferences rather than the majority. It's egotistical, ridiculous, and clearly not going to happen.

While the "l33t k1d5" like Wharg0ul delight in looking down on WoW because it's not a hardcore game, they are merely another minority and are best left to fester in their own pit of resentment at the genre that left them behind.

 

And my point comes back. Even if someone released an IDEAL game - fun enough for hardcore, core and casual crowds, people would STILL most likely bounce back to WoW, out of familiarity and unbothering. 

Originally posted by Goronian

 

---

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

 

OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre.
Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word.
Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden.
Human lemmings, all.
As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play.
A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment.
We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.

---

---

Originally posted by Quizzical

 

If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.

---

True, in a way. But think about this - movies, music and regular games cost musch less to produce, than MMOs. With risks this high, some studios (and, quite likely, a lot of them) will stop chasing the fabled "carrot" of several million (even several thousands) subscribers and either do lackluster F2P games or stop doing MMOs altogether.

 

Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
 

I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.

Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.

And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Goronian

It's not the fact, that people bounce. It's the fact, that people bounce, and then still return to WoW.

There's a reason for that; it's actually a very fun game if you're an average player.

It's important to define what the average player is at this point; studies have shown that:

The average age is 25-30 years old.
The average MMOGer is in full time employment/education. (only 10% are unemployed)
The average hours per week is 22.

22 hours is not a vast amount of time; and WoW easily has enough content to ensure that anyone playing 22 hours a week will be able to do so for a long time before the burn-out sets in.

The problem is with the people, but it's not with the average gamer .. it's with those on the fringes; the minorities who seem to feel that the genre should change to reflect their preferences rather than the majority. It's egotistical, ridiculous, and clearly not going to happen.

While the "l33t k1d5" like Wharg0ul delight in looking down on WoW because it's not a hardcore game, they are merely another minority and are best left to fester in their own pit of resentment at the genre that left them behind.

 

WTF, man?? Why the cheap shot?

I'm a 36 year old father, a mature adult....but because I don't subscribe to WoW I'm a "l33t k1d"??

Grow the fuck up.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Goronian

It's not the fact, that people bounce. It's the fact, that people bounce, and then still return to WoW.

 There's a reason for that; it's actually a very fun game if you're an average player.

It's important to define what the average player is at this point; studies have shown that:

The average age is 25-30 years old.
The average MMOGer is in full time employment/education. (only 10% are unemployed)
The average hours per week is 22.

22 hours is not a vast amount of time; and WoW easily has enough content to ensure that anyone playing 22 hours a week will be able to do so for a long time before the burn-out sets in.

The problem is with the people, but it's not with the average gamer .. it's with those on the fringes; the minorities who seem to feel that the genre should change to reflect their preferences rather than the majority. It's egotistical, ridiculous, and clearly not going to happen.

While the "l33t k1d5" like Wharg0ul delight in looking down on WoW because it's not a hardcore game, they are merely another minority and are best left to fester in their own pit of resentment at the genre that left them behind.

What you fail to realize is that WoW is not part of the "average gamer" either.  The average gamer is what you hear every time you play a game on Xbox Live.  WoW was a major step in the direction of making MMOs a mainstream form of entertainment, but it still has a way to go.

While I consider myself an average gamer I cannot stand WoW, not because of the game, but who plays it.  Wow as a game is quite enjoyable but the ignorance of those playing (or "l33t k1d5" as you claim Wharg0ul is) it make it the cesspit that the others are talking about.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by Goronian

 

---

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

 

OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre.
Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word.
Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden.
Human lemmings, all.
As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play.
A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment.
We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.

---

 

---

Originally posted by Quizzical

 

If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.

---

 

True, in a way. But think about this - movies, music and regular games cost musch less to produce, than MMOs. With risks this high, some studios (and, quite likely, a lot of them) will stop chasing the fabled "carrot" of several million (even several thousands) subscribers and either do lackluster F2P games or stop doing MMOs altogether.

 

Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
 

I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.

Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.

And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.

Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.

Originally posted by Locklain

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Goronian

It's not the fact, that people bounce. It's the fact, that people bounce, and then still return to WoW.

 There's a reason for that; it's actually a very fun game if you're an average player.

It's important to define what the average player is at this point; studies have shown that:

The average age is 25-30 years old.
The average MMOGer is in full time employment/education. (only 10% are unemployed)
The average hours per week is 22.

22 hours is not a vast amount of time; and WoW easily has enough content to ensure that anyone playing 22 hours a week will be able to do so for a long time before the burn-out sets in.

The problem is with the people, but it's not with the average gamer .. it's with those on the fringes; the minorities who seem to feel that the genre should change to reflect their preferences rather than the majority. It's egotistical, ridiculous, and clearly not going to happen.

While the "l33t k1d5" like Wharg0ul delight in looking down on WoW because it's not a hardcore game, they are merely another minority and are best left to fester in their own pit of resentment at the genre that left them behind.

What you fail to realize is that WoW is not part of the "average gamer" either.  The average gamer is what you hear every time you play a game on Xbox Live.  WoW was a major step in the direction of making MMOs a mainstream form of entertainment, but it still has a way to go.

While I consider myself an average gamer I cannot stand WoW, not because of the game, but who plays it.  Wow as a game is quite enjoyable but the ignorance of those playing (or "l33t k1d5" as you claim Wharg0ul is) it make it the cesspit that the others are talking about.

 

Maybe, I'm picking wrong games, but on DoA4 people are usually quite nice... Maybe I'm just lucky.

WoW's community is a strange blend of casual, hardcore and "1337". They tend to seek easy ways out, like raiding and grindish endgame and tend to be self-centred in their goals with a strange mindset, that WoW is better, than all other games combined, to boot.

Originally posted by Goronian

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by Goronian

 

---

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

 

OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre.
Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word.
Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden.
Human lemmings, all.
As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play.
A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment.
We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.

---

 

---

Originally posted by Quizzical

 

If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.

---

 

True, in a way. But think about this - movies, music and regular games cost musch less to produce, than MMOs. With risks this high, some studios (and, quite likely, a lot of them) will stop chasing the fabled "carrot" of several million (even several thousands) subscribers and either do lackluster F2P games or stop doing MMOs altogether.

 

Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
 

I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.

Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.

And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.

Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.

Now, now...don't confuse the F2P item-mall grinders for a legitimate, quality MMO. Those are churned out primarily by asian companies trying to skip the middle-man of gold-farmers / sellers by simply offering in-game items for cash. A totally different thing.
 

Let's instead remeber games like AC, AO, DAoC, Neocron, and even EQ....there as no WoW to compete with in those days...no magic 11 million subs to try to acquire.

And newer games, such as Spellborn, and even Darkfall. Games designed to be fun in their own way, on their own merits, and obviously not trying to acquire wow-like subs. I've never played Darkfall personally, but I can tell you that Spellborn looks and plays like a quality game....and in fact it is. And it didn't take the budget of a small country to make.

We have a lot of games in development, and more and more I see companies veering away from the cash-grab, and just trying to make a good game. Bravo!