Originally posted by Salvatoris

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Look, Sal. You logged in, picked some expensive stuff without knowing what you are even looking at, and then came here spouting numbers. Enkidu gave the best advice:

 

That really isn't the case. When I posted on these forums a couple of weeks ago about losing my first cruiser, people said I shouldn't be piloting it anyway. Everyone suggested going back to a frigate and just equipping it better. So I train in to and buy a better shield booster, but I can only run it a few seconds before "a capacitor is empty, a capacitor is empty, a capacitor is empty". So I ask in the noob help channel how i could upgrade my capacitor recharge or capacity... and the answer I got from one of the blue named dudes was that it is only possible through ship modifications, but they were very expensive.

I didn't just look up the most expensive part i could find to prove a point. I have no ant-Eve agenda.  I subscribed to this game with the honest desire to enjoy it.   I have complaints about the game to be sure, and I can see from reading these and other forums that my specific complaints are fairly common... even if they are misconceptions, they are shared by a decent percentage of people who have tried the game.
 

the "blue" gave you terrible advice. Get capacitor skills first, then worry about rigs and modules to increase it.

EDIT: and any ship with the capacitor rigs you listed is just a waste of money, learn how to fit and play before you complain.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Salvatoris

Originally posted by Enkindu

Salvatoris, I think you can see that the community herre isn't hostile and really is trying to help you see a different way of looking at the game.  My advice is to ask one of these badass PvPers to take you out in eve and show you the ropes.

 

that is just about the last impression I am going to take away from this thread.  No offense to the 3 or 4 guys posting here.... and I can say that my experience with the community in game has been substantially better.  There is still a pretty significant group that would rather just call you a noob and tell you to figure it out yourself than answer a simple question... as can be seen in this thread. 

I am going to drop the discussion here, because we are clearly never going to agree on the impact of in-game currency sales.  At least i can take comfort in the fact that overall, MMO players seem to agree with me on that issue.... even  if the average Eve player doesn't fit in that group. 

 

I have to smile at this. Here you have pages and pages of answers to your questions, along with some good advice.  All of this given to someone who came in here trashing a game that he never really took the time to learn how to play.

Yes, in eve people do expect you to at least try to figure out things for yourself, but by and large that are decent and helpful.  At least two people from this forum have contacted me in game and I probably gave about 25 mil worth of ships/ gear to both of them.  They were dealing with the same learning curve, same difficulties.. but they didn't act like whiny little girls.

Since you have basically spit in the face of my kindness with this last post, I'm gonna tell you the truth here:

You aren't smart or mature enough for eve.

You are blaming something almost irrelevant to the greater mechanics of the game (isk buying) for the fact that you can't even figure out the basics.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Well, you can go ahead and name-call and see if that proves your point about how mature and helpful this forum community is.   For the record, I was including you in the small group of people on this forum that were being helpful.  I also made a point to say that I have found the community in-game to be both polite and helpful, for the most part.  It's unfortunate that my views on the in-game currency sales are so offensive to you, because I actually have nothing but respect for you personally. 

 I didn't "trash" the game in my original post here.  I stated my opinion of it, along with the facts about how long I have been playing.  I think if you go back and read my first post in this thread, you'll see that I wasn't disrespectful or rude to anyone in it.  I didn't say the game sucks, or that it wasn't any good.  I think ingame currency sales are bad for the game, or at least for the players who don't want to participate in it.  This is my number one problem with the game, and the only issue I have really pressed in this entire thread.  My opinion is that equipment is important, and therefor ISK is important.  You guys could have easily disagreed with that post without people calling me stupid or telling me to go back to WoW... both of which were said before I EVER said anything rude or disrespectful to anyone in this thread.  I don't care if you reply to this, but I would appreciate it if you would re-read my original post here, and the responses it got before deciding who was slinging mud and who was retaliating... something i don't deny in the least.

Thanks for the autobiography.

Ok, great.. if you've got it all together I'm happy for you.  Why are you having such a hard time accepting good advice and good answers to your questions from people?

Giving people attitude who are going out of their way to help you is just bad manners.

If you don't like what I said before then try this:

Quit wasting your time on a game you don't like, and quit posting in a forum for a game you don't like.

This is what I imagine an intelligent, well-adjusted person would do.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Thanks for the autobiography.

Ok, great.. if you've got it all together I'm happy for you.  Why are you having such a hard time accepting good advice and good answers to your questions from people?

Giving people attitude who are going out of their way to help you is just bad manners.

If you don't like what I said before then try this:

Quit wasting your time on a game you don't like, and quit posting in a forum for a game you don't like.

This is what I imagine an intelligent, well-adjusted person would do.

I'm sure I posted several times that I love certain aspects of the game.  I really only harped on one point, and that is the ISK sales.  Everything else was an extension of that argument, and I am quite sure i wasn't rude to ANYONE who was trying to politely offer advice... and again, re-read my first post and tell me where it was insulting to anyone here... then read the replies to it.  Sure, I am abrasive when people call me names and sling insults.  Who isn't?

On the subject of being stupid... I actually do feel a little foolish for attempting to deal with you like a reasonable adult here.  I should know better than to expect people on the internet to acknowledge that there is living breathing person on the other side of the conversation. 

Originally posted by Salvatoris

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Originally posted by VultureSkull

The grind in Eve is not for xp but for isk. So at the end of the day you still need to grind.

 

Wrong. You do NOT NEED to grind for isk at all if you do not want to or know how to get it easily (and no I don't mean buying it, either legal or illegally).

You can go through Eve without ever "grinding" and you can still level and participate in whatever you want. I've known many players from the early days of launch that never "grinded" isk ever. They just sold what they got as drops in pvp.

 

Yah... you can level without grinding for ISK... but you'll just spend all your time in a space station wishing you could afford to lose another 20 million ISK worth of ship and equipment.... and that what it costs for noobs.  I can't imagine what it costs to lose a fully equipped battleship.

Eve is a game with very little more to do than PvP.  PvP in Eve is also very expensive since you lose it all every time some 4 year vet rolls up, locks you in place and destroys everything you have worked for since subscribing to the game... just for fun he will probably pod you too.  He doesn't gain anything for it, but this game caters to griefers.

You could decide to stay in secure space and run the same asinine missions over and over, or AFK mine all day for your cash... but those are still grinding.  And despite what this guy wants you to believe it is very expensive to play this game.  I suppose it would have to be, since the Devs advocate and facilitate buying ISK. through the sale of ingame time cards.

As per your request: here's your first post in the thread.

Inaccurate, misleading, and obviously posted by someone with very little in game experience.

I go out of my way to give new players helpful information on this forum.. just look at my post history if you doubt that.

Pretty clear who was slinging the mud first in this thread.

Edit: typo

Originally posted by Salvatoris

Originally posted by Enkindu

Salvatoris, I think you can see that the community herre isn't hostile and really is trying to help you see a different way of looking at the game.  My advice is to ask one of these badass PvPers to take you out in eve and show you the ropes.

 

that is just about the last impression I am going to take away from this thread.  No offense to the 3 or 4 guys posting here.... and I can say that my experience with the community in game has been substantially better.  There is still a pretty significant group that would rather just call you a noob and tell you to figure it out yourself than answer a simple question... as can be seen in this thread. 

I am going to drop the discussion here, because we are clearly never going to agree on the impact of in-game currency sales.  At least i can take comfort in the fact that overall, MMO players seem to agree with me on that issue.... even  if the average Eve player doesn't fit in that group. 

What you don't understand Sal is that EVE players are exceptional gamers, and do not consider EVE to be a game for the average player.

We understand that the ISK buying has almost no bearing on our game play.  Seriously, it doesn't.  I've rarely run into a person who said they lost a fight because the other side were ISK buyers.

Far and away the biggest reason to lose a fight is your opponent out-played you.  They either fitted their ship better (i.e they mounted close range guns and managed to tackle you and the long range guns you mounted.

Or they got the drop on you in terms of positioning, or distance, or any of a half of a dozen factors.

And the most common reason you lose a fight?  You made a mistake.

I read your post.  Your first cruiser loss was due to your own mistakes.  It was easily avoidable, but you screwed up.

We all screw up Sal, I'm legendary for doing so.  But I always figure out what I did wrong and make sure I don't make the same mistake twice.

You are correct in one point. EVE is challenging and difficult, especially for new players, sort of like basic training is for the Marines.  The reward comes later when you are flying better ships more expertly, making money in a variety of ways, and flying with pilots you know and trust.

EVE's rewards come more slowly than most games, and it really is a test of patience.  I understand, this sort of challenge might not be for you, its not for most folks, hence the smaller sub numbers. (Face, it, looking for a challenge isn't what most gamers want, hence WOW's popularity)

As long as you enjoy the debate, keep posting your viewpoints here in this thread.  But you are incorrect in most of them due to your mis-understanding of the deeper workings of the game and players are going to continue to call you on it.

I am still not seeing a single insult aimed at anyone in that post.  From the perspective of a noob, of course.  That is kinda the point and not something I have tried to hide.  As far as inaccurate and misleading... You can level without grinding for ISK, check.  A fully equipped ship is expensive, check. A long time vet will probably smoke a noob in a one on one fight, check.  heavy PvP focus and boring agent missions, check and check.  Again, it's expensive to lose a ship.. we already put a check by that... what else is left.  Oh yeah, the in-game sale of ISK... and no one is disputing that fact. 

Some of those are opinions you don't agree with, but none of it is lies.  The one thing I was apparently incorrect about in that post was in regards to AFK mining.  I'm sorry I said you could alt-tab and mine.  that is apparently a bad idea, although it worked perfectly fine for me in high-sec space. 

So I still don't see what about that post makes me an asshole, a carebear, an idiot, or warrants the go back to WoW comments.

Don't think there's a hyphen in that particular expletive.

Come on man. Nothing to do but sit in a station? 20 mil isk for a new ship? Get ganked every time by a 4 year vet? Caters to griefers?

All misinformation, and you know it as well as I do.

If you want to prove that you really are the "wounded noble" here then take my advice and ask for some lessons from a good PvP player or corp.  Hell, I'll even give you 20 million in game. You can pretend it is isk you bought to level the playing field : )

But cut the "my feelings have been hurt by the namecalling." You came in here talking trash and you know it.

So do you really wanna learn the game or keep making excuses? Tell me now and I'll log in and send you 20 mil.

Edit: Also, any of you PvP aces wanna step up and teach this dude the ropes? I'm really good at making ISK in Eve but if I take him out to PvP we are both gonna die.

Originally posted by Salvatoris

Some of those are opinions you don't agree with, but none of it is lies.  The one thing I was apparently incorrect about in that post was in regards to AFK mining.  I'm sorry I said you could alt-tab and mine.  that is apparently a bad idea, although it worked perfectly fine for me in high-sec space. 

You can AFK in 0.9 and up... if there are any rocks left... or they changed it :P (No Rats)

Also.. you Have a Mechwarrior Sig... is this the New Console crap or old school pen and paper / Map Grid games?

If its the old school, Eve is Atleast as complex as that... If not more. Just read the Info on how tracking and range on turrents work. It will make your head spin. Guides Linkie

Just because someone has the better ammo on them Dosent give them a I win Button. You DO need to know whats Incomeing and what you got Outgoing. Shooting Thermal at a thermal tanked opponet is almost as bad as shooting blanks.

And I can tank anything in my Converter in 0.4 and Up alt tabed... AI controled that is :P Got corp mates for Players XD

there are a hundred things to keep track of in eve. If your not willing to learn then you really do need to stop playing. If you are willing to make your self better then read the Guides link up there. "Just hiting Orbit" is almost a death sentance in eve.

This isent Wow or WARs Mindless combat. Its Not Some simple OH just click and shoot tipe of game. In my battleship For the longest I was dooing a hundred dammage per shot with Large T2 Railguns because I wasent useing them right. My Assult Friggate was Out dammageing my Battleship in Lvl 4 missions.

In eve Knolage Really IS POWER!!!!!!!! And Its Free to get and fairly easy IF your willing to learn. If Not then you really Do need to find annother game. Ive got 50+ Million skillpoints. Ive Never pvped in a Ship. Might someday got 90% of the skills to Fly a Dread or Carrier. Ive been in Null sec once. made it back to :P

And all 3 of my accouts are currently paid up for a nother year. So if you want In stop wineing and get in. Eve Online has Hundreds of tools to help you understand Eve. and If someone Else makes a better one they Dont Hesatate to Point in their Dir. If you cant Learn the blame is Squarly on you. Not Eve.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by ericbelser

Again - fair bit of spin there. Mindset and player tactical skills are a huge part of PvP, but denying that SP or modules make a difference is moronic. Your cheap T1 fit with crap skills will lose nearly every time to someone in a T2 ship with better modules and skills. It does matter, that newb corp of less than 6month old characters will get torn apart by any decent group of 1yr+ old pilots flying HACs, Command Ships, Recons etc fitted with T2 and named modules.

 

 

Eric i see your point and it is true.. but the moronic thing would be starting (or getting stuck in) a fight you cant win.

If i jump my carrier into a station I don't know very well and get bumped off by 5 yarrs in battleships I'm gonna die too.

Won't matter that I've got officer fittings and 65 million skillpoints.

I think what people are getting at here is that picking the time, place, and circumstances of a PvP fight has a LOT more impact on the outcome of that fight than your skillpoints or gear.

But YES I will concede that in a straight up 1 on 1 fight in eve with all other things being equal and assuming that neither player makes any mistakes, the one with the better gear will most likely win.  Since I have never seen this happen in 5 years in eve I'm not 100% sure though.

 

Right but the argument wasn't that a pack of newbies can take down a vet - it was that *A* newbie can take down a vet...which is a totally different situation.

Obviously numbers matter...so does situation and *so* do skill points and cash.

EVE is great in that new players *can* contribute, I've never said otherwise, but hyping it up like SP don't matter is totally false, misleading and will result in very disappointed newbies.

As for the "buying ISK doesn't affect the game" - I have to disagree. I will agree that it doesn't affect a single fight or encounter, but you have to be daft to argue that resources don't matter in terms of territorial fights and corp wars. If I can afford to fit, fight and possibly lose a 250m ISK ship every day of the week and so can my corpmates, we *are* going to do better in the long run than someone who cannot replace those sorts of losses (all else being equal in terms of numbers/tactical skill etc)

It's bad enough already that the ISK supporting that war often comes from untracable alt accounts and even entire ALT mining and production corps....it's a whole degree worse when that money is coming from someone just dropping RL cash on it.

I've played EVE for a very very long time and done just about everything the game has to offer; I've been that 3 month newbie in a t1 frigate tackling a a 2yr+ veteran in a t2 fitted HAC, hoping that enough of my corpmates could also get him. I know just how rarely it works unless the vet screws up. I've also been that 2yr+ vet in my t2 fitted and rigged battleship as me and my corpmates engage 2-4 times our numbers of "newbies" in assorted junk and burn them all down laughing.

It can be a great game and has a ton of depth, but it does have a rather steep learning curve...overly optimistic expectations won't help that any.

Originally posted by Salvatoris

I am still not seeing a single insult aimed at anyone in that post.  From the perspective of a noob, of course.  That is kinda the point and not something I have tried to hide.  As far as inaccurate and misleading... You can level without grinding for ISK, check.  A fully equipped ship is expensive, UNCHECK. A long time vet will probably smoke a noob in a one on one fight, check (that would depend, new player or new character with low skill?).  heavy PvP focus and boring agent missions, check and check (ill give you this one).  Again, it's expensive to lose a ship..not really  we already put a check by that...(remove that check then)  what else is left.  Oh yeah, the in-game sale of ISK... and no one is disputing that fact. technically you are getting credited game time. you cant sell isk for money but for game time. so 300-600 million isk will get you 1 month not cash. you can on the other hand buy a time card and sell it for isk

Some of those are opinions you don't agree with, but none of it is lies simply misinformed facts.  The one thing I was apparently incorrect about in that post was in regards to AFK mining.  I'm sorry I said you could alt-tab and mine.  that is apparently a bad idea, although it worked perfectly fine for me in high-sec space. 

So I still don't see what about that post makes me an asshole, a carebear, an idiot, or warrants the go back to WoW comments. (never said any of that, simply inform yourself more about a game before you post comments like that)

Originally posted by Enkindu

Don't think there's a hyphen in that particular expletive.

Fixed ;)

Come on man. Nothing to do but sit in a station?

I didn't say there is nothing to do but sit in a station.  I said if you don't grind ISK you will be sitting in the station wishing you could afford to replace your ship.  We disagree on what constitutes grinding.  IMO, doing the exact same agent mission several times is grinding, so is camping in an asteroid belt mining ore... but I know a lot of people disagree on the latter.

20 mil isk for a new ship?

I spent at least that to buy and outfit the first ship I lost, which was a Thorax Cruiser. 

Get ganked every time by a 4 year vet? 

I didn't say, every time.  But this is what happened to me the very first time I ever went in to low-sec space.  The 4 year vet comment comes from reading his employment history.  I'm sure I'm not the first person that this has ever happened to, and I will certainly not be the last.

Caters to griefers?

Or pirates as the case may be.  Greifers may be a bit harsh, but that I certainly don't have a better word for some of the normal player pirate behavior in this game.  Ganking doesn't seem strong enough to cover it.

All misinformation, and you know it as well as I do.

Nope, areas where we disagree.

If you want to prove that you really are the "wounded noble" here then take my advice and ask for some lessons from a good PvP player or corp.  Hell, I'll even give you 20 million in game. You can pretend it is isk you bought to level the playing field : )

As stated earlier.  I have already applied to join a Corp. for the sole purpose of learning the game... but there is some sort of delay on accepting new applicants right now.  Thanks for the offer of cash, but I have about 85,000,000 ISK.  I took advantage of a generous offer here on the forums to convert a trial account to live, and I haven't played enough to spend much of it.

But cut the "my feelings have been hurt by the namecalling." You came in here talking trash and you know it.

I'm pretty sure I specifically said my feelings weren't hurt.  I'm just trying to justify my own childish behavior earlier as retaliation.  It's generally difficult to justify childish behavior.  I'll make a not that more words piled on top is not generally the answer. ;)

 

Suit yourself.

You can't say I didn't try.  Will be online for a few more minutes if you change your mind.

And no way in hell you should spend 20 mil on a thorax, not when you are new.  10 should be the high end.

thorax in jita is running 6.5 mil and thats high

www.eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html

yeah, I was thinking 10 mil fitted

No sense in fitting expensive gear til you know what's what.

I remember my first thorax.  bought it in oursulaert, fitted it, and flew it to uphallant to try a little losec ratting.

From purchase to pod was under 30 minutes ; )

Edit: my typing is pathetic

Originally posted by ericbelser

Originally posted by Enkindu  

Originally posted by ericbelser

stuff

more stuff

 

Right but the argument wasn't that a pack of newbies can take down a vet - it was that *A* newbie can take down a vet...which is a totally different situation.

Different situation but still doable.

Obviously numbers matter...so does situation and *so* do skill points and cash.

And the biggest factor in this equation is the one you left out and that's player skill and let's not forget enemy intel.

EVE is great in that new players *can* contribute, I've never said otherwise, but hyping it up like SP don't matter is totally false, misleading and will result in very disappointed newbies.

But SP doesn't matter in the fact that a new player can contribute. They might not be in a carrier or battleship right way but that doesn't mean they cannot contribute. Does not take long for a new player to be in a tech 2 frigate such as an Electronics Attack Frigate which are very useful and fairly cheap.

As for the "buying ISK doesn't affect the game" - I have to disagree. I will agree that it doesn't affect a single fight or encounter, but you have to be daft to argue that resources don't matter in terms of territorial fights and corp wars. If I can afford to fit, fight and possibly lose a 250m ISK ship every day of the week and so can my corpmates, we *are* going to do better in the long run than someone who cannot replace those sorts of losses (all else being equal in terms of numbers/tactical skill etc)

If you are losing 250mil isk ships every day for a week you are doing something wrong and more real life money to throw into a game won't help you. You will run out of money eventually where those other players who actually know how to play the game will be just fine.

It's bad enough already that the ISK supporting that war often comes from untracable alt accounts and even entire ALT mining and production corps....it's a whole degree worse when that money is coming from someone just dropping RL cash on it.

Do you really believe any real corps in the game support their wars by buying isk ? Anyone who does this will not last in the game for long.

I've played EVE for a very very long time and done just about everything the game has to offer; I've been that 3 month newbie in a t1 frigate tackling a a 2yr+ veteran in a t2 fitted HAC, hoping that enough of my corpmates could also get him. I know just how rarely it works unless the vet screws up. I've also been that 2yr+ vet in my t2 fitted and rigged battleship as me and my corpmates engage 2-4 times our numbers of "newbies" in assorted junk and burn them all down laughing.

New players lose these fights and ships due to lack of game knowledge and mechanics, not because of lack of SPs or shitty gear. You are telling me you couldn't figure out how to beat an Ishtar with a Rupture ? Or how about how to beat a Rapier in a Bellicose ?

It can be a great game and has a ton of depth, but it does have a rather steep learning curve...overly optimistic expectations won't help that any.

I totally agree here. I do agree that new people shouldn't go running into the game with the expectation of being able to pwn vets but at the same time new players also should not go into the game with the mental block that you need SPs and isk to compete. With this mentality you end up never thinking you have enough. I've seen people in game with 20mil SPs and think they don't have enough to fight.

You can be useful and successful in pvp as a total noob it just all depends on your definition of successful I guess. To compare to WoW as an example you would never expect to do anything vs a bunch of level 80s if you were say level 10. You wouldn't even be useful as a support such as a healer since your healing wouldn't do shit all against the incoming dps. If you tried to 'tackle' a healer you will surely be one shotted by whatever wants to.

Now compare that to Eve where a new player can tackle and not be one shotted. But that new player also needs to watch out for drones and be quick to deal with them same as an old player. A new player can also get into an EW frigate or cruiser and support their gang.

In these roles a new player would have just as much chance of surviving a fight given a competent fleet commander. All those fancy skills do not give you THAT much of a difference.

We are talking about group pvp right and not one vs one duels out front of ironforge right ?

I paid 6.4, and I guess I spent too much equipping it.  In my defense, it seemed like 120 million credits would last forever when I was spending it.  That first 20 only lasted about half a day. 

With complete disregard for the ridicule I am setting myself up for, here's two ships I regularly use (different characters):

Rifter
"low slot 0" type="Overdrive Injector System I
"low slot 1" type="Gyrostabilizer I
"low slot 2" type="Capacitor Power Relay I
"med slot 0" type="Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
"med slot 1" type="Small Shield Booster I
"med slot 2" type="Stasis Webifier I" />
"hi slot 0" type="200mm AutoCannon I
"hi slot 1" type="200mm AutoCannon I
"hi slot 2" type="200mm AutoCannon I" />
"hi slot 3" type="'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I

Caracal
"low slot 0" type="Damage Control I
"low slot 1" type="Power Diagnostic System I
"med slot 0" type="Photon Scattering Field I
"med slot 1" type="Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I
"med slot 2" type="10MN Afterburner I
"med slot 3" type="Medium Supplemental Barrier Emitter I
"med slot 4" type="Civilian Shield Booster I
"hi slot 0" type="Heavy Missile Launcher I
"hi slot 1" type="Heavy Missile Launcher I
"hi slot 2" type="Heavy Missile Launcher I
"hi slot 3" type="Heavy Missile Launcher I
"hi slot 4" type="Heavy Missile Launcher I
"drone bay" type="Valkyrie I

For PvP, I take out the Shield Boosters and replace them with Warp Scramblers. The character using the Rifter has 1.8 Million skill points. That setup costs about 450k to build if I use a Malkuth instead of an Arbalest, but the Arby was a gift and that's why that 1.4mill silliness is on a 240k frigate.

Anyone here that plays EVE can look at my ships and tell you two things

1) there's a thousand ways to fit these ships better than what I've done, even without knowing what my skills are

2) these ships are easily replaceable and they get the job done

Hoping that the feedback from others on the pros and cons of these setups helps you get a better feel for what some of your viable options are in EVE.

One important thing in EVE that hasn't come up much is that a new player interested in PvP that joins a PvP corp very possibly won't be spending a single ISK for a ship. Many PvP corps supply their new players with ships or replace their ships when they lose them. I mention this because one of your major concerns, Sal, is that people with cash will have an advantage over you. Cash kinda gets removed from the equation when you're learning the ropes on someone else's dime.

 LordMonkus also brought up a good point in his last post. Personally, if I had a choice between reliable intel or a billion ISK, I would take the reliable intel. Knowledge is more powerful than any wallet in EVE Online.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that rifter setup. Like you said for pvp switch out the shield booster for a warp scrambler. Also replace the cap relay for another speed mod like nanofiber or overdrive. I've always dropped down  to 150mm autocannons for fitting and for better tracking and less reloading. 150s open up plated and medium shield extender setups. Ahh the wonderful little Rifter truely one of the best ships in the game. There's some dude that's been playing for years and all he does is fly a Rifter with tech 1 player made gear in PvP, he gets a lot of kills in it too.

I can't comment on the Caracal setup since I dont fly Caldari, too damn slow for my tastes. Try flying a plated up Ruppy, one of if not the best tech 1 cruiser in the game.

Lordm  - I'm sure I mentioned player skill in an earlier post...sue me for missing it that time, it's obviously a factor.

The point about "being able to lose 250m in ships a week" isn't that you will or should...but that you can survive it. NO ONE wins all the time and the difference between being able to suck up the loss of a good combat ship and leap back in with another vs having to come back in T1 crap or drop out of the war is huge. ISK and ISK reserves matter, it's why nearly everyone scores wars based on ISK destroyed/lost and not ship counts and why podding someone with a full set of faction implants means more than killing their implantless suicide clone. Anyone who has played for any length of time has heard one corp member or another say something like "well if I lose this ship, I am out of it for a while".

As for the "no real corps survives by buying ISK"....we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I have known people who relied on GTC sales to fund their playing, more than a few in fact and the simple truth is that if these players could not convert RL cash to in game ISK they would be worth far less in any prolonged war. I'm not saying *good* corps have a majority of players who operate this way, but I have known of at least a few that might.

Other than that, we basically agree and are arguing over semantics and trivialities :)