After getting my level 80 elemental shaman in a raid guild, after doing the same 3-4 heroic instances to get the gear i needed to raid, I joined a raid guild, constantly we did the same raid naxxramas, eye of eternity and malygos those three same raids, the same thing over and over and over again. Just hoping for loot.

When I was leveling my alt to 80, something just came accross my mind that this is what I will be doing with this character, the same few instances, to the same few raids just to to keep grinding for loot and waiting months after months for a different raid.  There was no different exploration, there was no different content, it was rushing to 80 to do the same grind that i did on my shaman.

Is it worth it? The 15 dollars a month to constantly do this same repetition? Then I quit WoW. but is this problem just in WOW?  Are there any mmorpgs with a different end game where there are different goals? If there is can any one recommend me one? I am extremely bored and its not that I am burned out there is a big difference between being burned out and just plain bored.

So can any one recommend me a mmorpg or am I going to go back to single player rpgs and wait for the next best thing?

Originally posted by Sneakers05

After getting my level 80 elemental shaman in a raid guild, after doing the same 3-4 heroic instances to get the gear i needed to raid, I joined a raid guild, constantly we did the same raid naxxramas, eye of eternity and malygos those three same raids, the same thing over and over and over again. Just hoping for loot.

When I was leveling my alt to 80, something just came accross my mind that this is what I will be doing with this character, the same few instances, to the same few raids just to to keep grinding for loot and waiting months after months for a different raid.  There was no different exploration, there was no different content, it was rushing to 80 to do the same grind that i did on my shaman.

 

Is it worth it? The 15 dollars a month to constantly do this same repetition? Then I quit WoW. but is this problem just in WOW?  Are there any mmorpgs with a different end game where there are different goals? If there is can any one recommend me one? I am extremely bored and its not that I am burned out there is a big difference between being burned out and just plain bored.

 

So can any one recommend me a mmorpg or am I going to go back to single player rpgs and wait for the next best thing?

This is why I Just quit and went back to FFXI, it may also be a rat race but atleast I have a lot more friends there and the people are a lot nicer.

Oh and FFXI has a LOT of new stuff coming out soon, (no not the april fools stuff)  They have 3 expantions coming out this year (boosters not full blow ex packs)

Also you can now level sync your characters to other people so you can party with virtually anyone at anytime.

Fun?

Yeah I'm having fun again

 Well first off let me say that i know the feeling you are having with WoW.  I quit after wotlk after lvling to 80 and raiding all the time.  Most MMO's are gonna be along the same lines though, end game dungeons, crafting, pvp, and so on.  I would recommend a sandbox for you considering it will keep you going for years.  

I would recommend EvE since it's a sandbox with no lvls., skill based, pvp with full loot and so on.  This game def. has a steep learning curve but has a great community and a rookie channel for help.  There is a thread for a 21 day VIP pass instead of the 14 day free trial you would normally get.  I would recommend the 21 day pass since this game is time consuming.  

Go to the forums or EvE's webpage and read up on all the options you can have in game and good luck.

Originally posted by hail2dathief

 Well first off let me say that i know the feeling you are having with WoW.  I quit after wotlk after lvling to 80 and raiding all the time.  Most MMO's are gonna be along the same lines though, end game dungeons, crafting, pvp, and so on.  I would recommend a sandbox for you considering it will keep you going for years.  

 

I would recommend EvE since it's a sandbox with no lvls., skill based, pvp with full loot and so on.  This game def. has a steep learning curve but has a great community and a rookie channel for help.  There is a thread for a 21 day VIP pass instead of the 14 day free trial you would normally get.  I would recommend the 21 day pass since this game is time consuming.  

 

Go to the forums or EvE's webpage and read up on all the options you can have in game and good luck.

 

If your up for a Sci-Fi ship based economy driven game then EvE is the one, player community seems very nice and everyone is very helpful.

I gave the trial a go and it was very enjoyable, however I couldn't resolve an issue that involved the game crashing every few hours, and it just annoyed me too much to keep going.

Great game though.

Thanks guys, EVE was okay, I could not really get into FFXI, it seemed really much more complicated than a mmorpg should be. How is LOTRO by any chance? I like mmos with good stories as well

Originally posted by Sneakers05

Thanks guys, EVE was okay, I could not really get into FFXI, it seemed really much more complicated than a mmorpg should be. How is LOTRO by any chance? I like mmos with good stories as well

If you like a solid PvE game then you'll like it.  It's pretty much along the lines of WoW and all the other normal themepark games.  It's not based on the books or movies, well maybe loosely but not really.  You can pretty much solo to max level without any problems.  I honestly think that you will get the same way with this game as you did with WoW though.  Best thing for someone like you is to wait for a good sandbox like MO or Earthrise to come out, that's what i'm doing since nothing atm seems to be much different from anything else that's out except maybe a couple minor things.

-cheers

Originally posted by hail2dathief

Originally posted by Sneakers05

Thanks guys, EVE was okay, I could not really get into FFXI, it seemed really much more complicated than a mmorpg should be. How is LOTRO by any chance? I like mmos with good stories as well

 

If you like a solid PvE game then you'll like it.  It's pretty much along the lines of WoW and all the other normal themepark games.  It's not based on the books or movies, well maybe loosely but not really.  You can pretty much solo to max level without any problems.  I honestly think that you will get the same way with this game as you did with WoW though.  Best thing for someone like you is to wait for a good sandbox like MO or Earthrise to come out, that's what i'm doing since nothing atm seems to be much different from anything else that's out except maybe a couple minor things.

 

-cheers

I liked LotR for the fact that it reminded me mostly of EQ mixed with WoW with Tolkien lore.  I didn't like how the combat system is and the characters feel kinda sluggish, like the movement does...

My ONLY complaints are the play control essentially.

The rest of the game is pretty spotless

Congratulations.  You've figured out why most MMORPG endgames are awful.  This takes a lot of people a very long time to figure out, if they ever do.

The basic problem is that the endgame is what a company gives you to after you've already done everything worth doing, hoping that you won't catch on and will keep paying the monthly fee.  The key property is something that takes minimal development time to create, but enormous amounts of player time to complete.  A company can't allow you to ever have the best of all possible gear.  If they let you get by without doing any particular instance more than once or twice, you'll run out of content very quickly.  Thus, the company has to ensure that you'll have to grind through a particular dungeon many times before you can go on to the next.  A lot of MMORPG players can't really imagine that it could be otherwise, so they put up with it.

If you'd like an endgame that actually has a lot of variety, try Guild Wars.  The endgame consists of switching to hard mode, and that makes everything in the game of a reasonable level for you, even when you're at the level cap with perfect gear.  You can then go do whatever content you want, in whatever order you want.  There are about 70 missions, 18 dungeons, and well over 100 zones to vanquish.  You can do one a bunch of times in a row if you like, or just do one once and never again.  You can completely skip whichever ones you like.  You can decide that you want to do missions but skip dungeons and vanquishing, or any other criteria you like.

One of the key things that makes this possible is that completing content in Guild Wars doesn't make you stronger.  You're already at the level cap with perfect gear when you start hard mode, so you can't get stronger from there.  This is important because it makes it possible to do the content in whatever order you like without being too weak for what you do first or too strong for whatever you do last.

If you'd like some variety between your characters, so that you don't just end up doing exactly the same thing with every character, it helps to avoid PvE-only skills, especially Ursan Blessing.  Avoiding the various PvE-only cheats preserves the original intended challenge, without using the various cheats like consumables to make everything trivial.  This may seem like a weird thing to advise, but unlike most games, which encourage you to make everything as trivial as possible to keep up in leveling, in Guild Wars, you can freely try hard things without worrying about keeping up on gear.  That's because you very quickly get as strong as you'll ever be, and then the focus is on doing the content.

Welcome to my world where banging your head against a wall seems more enjoyable than anything out there.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Congratulations.  You've figured out why most MMORPG endgames are awful.  This takes a lot of people a very long time to figure out, if they ever do.

The basic problem is that the endgame is what a company gives you to after you've already done everything worth doing, hoping that you won't catch on and will keep paying the monthly fee.  The key property is something that takes minimal development time to create, but enormous amounts of player time to complete.  A company can't allow you to ever have the best of all possible gear.  If they let you get by without doing any particular instance more than once or twice, you'll run out of content very quickly.  Thus, the company has to ensure that you'll have to grind through a particular dungeon many times before you can go on to the next.  A lot of MMORPG players can't really imagine that it could be otherwise, so they put up with it.

If you'd like an endgame that actually has a lot of variety, try Guild Wars.  The endgame consists of switching to hard mode, and that makes everything in the game of a reasonable level for you, even when you're at the level cap with perfect gear.  You can then go do whatever content you want, in whatever order you want.  There are about 70 missions, 18 dungeons, and well over 100 zones to vanquish.  You can do one a bunch of times in a row if you like, or just do one once and never again.  You can completely skip whichever ones you like.  You can decide that you want to do missions but skip dungeons and vanquishing, or any other criteria you like.

One of the key things that makes this possible is that completing content in Guild Wars doesn't make you stronger.  You're already at the level cap with perfect gear when you start hard mode, so you can't get stronger from there.  This is important because it makes it possible to do the content in whatever order you like without being too weak for what you do first or too strong for whatever you do last.

If you'd like some variety between your characters, so that you don't just end up doing exactly the same thing with every character, it helps to avoid PvE-only skills, especially Ursan Blessing.  Avoiding the various PvE-only cheats preserves the original intended challenge, without using the various cheats like consumables to make everything trivial.  This may seem like a weird thing to advise, but unlike most games, which encourage you to make everything as trivial as possible to keep up in leveling, in Guild Wars, you can freely try hard things without worrying about keeping up on gear.  That's because you very quickly get as strong as you'll ever be, and then the focus is on doing the content.

I actually read the wall guys!

Here is whats wrong with the wall, your saying that you don't like endgame that makes you continually build your character up more and more grabbing at better gear new items and new skills and new high end difficult things to get.

Problem: Most RPG's are level builders, we enjoy making our characters stronger and stronger, getting better and better making old things that were once difficult easy and encountering new things that are amazingly hard and virtually impossible when you first see them.

We like challenge, and we like level building...

RPG = LEVEL BUILDING

How many times have I played a final fantasy game and leveled the characters to 99 even though you only needed to get to 50 to win?

How many people have played Oblivion or Morrowind or any other game with levels where you didn't do the main story until you character was a beefed up and powerful as you could make it, why?  

BECAUSE WE LIKE LEVEL BUILDING

Originally posted by Jerid13

Originally posted by Quizzical

Congratulations.  You've figured out why most MMORPG endgames are awful.  This takes a lot of people a very long time to figure out, if they ever do.

The basic problem is that the endgame is what a company gives you to after you've already done everything worth doing, hoping that you won't catch on and will keep paying the monthly fee.  The key property is something that takes minimal development time to create, but enormous amounts of player time to complete.  A company can't allow you to ever have the best of all possible gear.  If they let you get by without doing any particular instance more than once or twice, you'll run out of content very quickly.  Thus, the company has to ensure that you'll have to grind through a particular dungeon many times before you can go on to the next.  A lot of MMORPG players can't really imagine that it could be otherwise, so they put up with it.

If you'd like an endgame that actually has a lot of variety, try Guild Wars.  The endgame consists of switching to hard mode, and that makes everything in the game of a reasonable level for you, even when you're at the level cap with perfect gear.  You can then go do whatever content you want, in whatever order you want.  There are about 70 missions, 18 dungeons, and well over 100 zones to vanquish.  You can do one a bunch of times in a row if you like, or just do one once and never again.  You can completely skip whichever ones you like.  You can decide that you want to do missions but skip dungeons and vanquishing, or any other criteria you like.

One of the key things that makes this possible is that completing content in Guild Wars doesn't make you stronger.  You're already at the level cap with perfect gear when you start hard mode, so you can't get stronger from there.  This is important because it makes it possible to do the content in whatever order you like without being too weak for what you do first or too strong for whatever you do last.

If you'd like some variety between your characters, so that you don't just end up doing exactly the same thing with every character, it helps to avoid PvE-only skills, especially Ursan Blessing.  Avoiding the various PvE-only cheats preserves the original intended challenge, without using the various cheats like consumables to make everything trivial.  This may seem like a weird thing to advise, but unlike most games, which encourage you to make everything as trivial as possible to keep up in leveling, in Guild Wars, you can freely try hard things without worrying about keeping up on gear.  That's because you very quickly get as strong as you'll ever be, and then the focus is on doing the content.

 

I actually read the wall guys!

Here is whats wrong with the wall, your saying that you don't like endgame that makes you continually build your character up more and more grabbing at better gear new items and new skills and new high end difficult things to get.

Problem: Most RPG's are level builders, we enjoy making our characters stronger and stronger, getting better and better making old things that were once difficult easy and encountering new things that are amazingly hard and virtually impossible when you first see them.

We like challenge, and we like level building...

RPG = LEVEL BUILDING

How many times have I played a final fantasy game and leveled the characters to 99 even though you only needed to get to 50 to win?

How many people have played Oblivion or Morrowind or any other game with levels where you didn't do the main story until you character was a beefed up and powerful as you could make it, why?  

BECAUSE WE LIKE LEVEL BUILDING

Amen brother!

I will agree level building is pretty much a RPG staple, yet doing the very same dungeon over and over shouldn't. Endgame needs to evolve because it seems most players tend to burn/race thru all the content on the way to max lvl.  All the content not asorbed is pretty much wasted and forgotten.

I'm playing WAR atm, a game that is not perfect and suffers from endgame balancing. I will say that game is very fun to make alts.

To the OP...good for you for realizing WoW is garbage.. search for a new game thats coming out

Originally posted by Jerid13

Originally posted by Quizzical

Congratulations.  You've figured out why most MMORPG endgames are awful.  This takes a lot of people a very long time to figure out, if they ever do.

The basic problem is that the endgame is what a company gives you to after you've already done everything worth doing, hoping that you won't catch on and will keep paying the monthly fee.  The key property is something that takes minimal development time to create, but enormous amounts of player time to complete.  A company can't allow you to ever have the best of all possible gear.  If they let you get by without doing any particular instance more than once or twice, you'll run out of content very quickly.  Thus, the company has to ensure that you'll have to grind through a particular dungeon many times before you can go on to the next.  A lot of MMORPG players can't really imagine that it could be otherwise, so they put up with it.

If you'd like an endgame that actually has a lot of variety, try Guild Wars.  The endgame consists of switching to hard mode, and that makes everything in the game of a reasonable level for you, even when you're at the level cap with perfect gear.  You can then go do whatever content you want, in whatever order you want.  There are about 70 missions, 18 dungeons, and well over 100 zones to vanquish.  You can do one a bunch of times in a row if you like, or just do one once and never again.  You can completely skip whichever ones you like.  You can decide that you want to do missions but skip dungeons and vanquishing, or any other criteria you like.

One of the key things that makes this possible is that completing content in Guild Wars doesn't make you stronger.  You're already at the level cap with perfect gear when you start hard mode, so you can't get stronger from there.  This is important because it makes it possible to do the content in whatever order you like without being too weak for what you do first or too strong for whatever you do last.

If you'd like some variety between your characters, so that you don't just end up doing exactly the same thing with every character, it helps to avoid PvE-only skills, especially Ursan Blessing.  Avoiding the various PvE-only cheats preserves the original intended challenge, without using the various cheats like consumables to make everything trivial.  This may seem like a weird thing to advise, but unlike most games, which encourage you to make everything as trivial as possible to keep up in leveling, in Guild Wars, you can freely try hard things without worrying about keeping up on gear.  That's because you very quickly get as strong as you'll ever be, and then the focus is on doing the content.

 

I actually read the wall guys!

Here is whats wrong with the wall, your saying that you don't like endgame that makes you continually build your character up more and more grabbing at better gear new items and new skills and new high end difficult things to get.

Problem: Most RPG's are level builders, we enjoy making our characters stronger and stronger, getting better and better making old things that were once difficult easy and encountering new things that are amazingly hard and virtually impossible when you first see them.

We like challenge, and we like level building...

RPG = LEVEL BUILDING

How many times have I played a final fantasy game and leveled the characters to 99 even though you only needed to get to 50 to win?

How many people have played Oblivion or Morrowind or any other game with levels where you didn't do the main story until you character was a beefed up and powerful as you could make it, why?  

BECAUSE WE LIKE LEVEL BUILDING

It's true, it's true.  That's why FFXI (~5 years) and DAoC (~7 years) kept me playing so long.  They had alot of things to do.  FFXI is by far the longest game I've ever played, I ended up finally quitting after getting my goldsmithing to 103 and all jobs except BLM and RDM to 75.  For DAoC, I finally quit after getting 13L0 and ML10 Battlemaster.  Having always something to do is key to the success of endgame.  I'm sorry but 10 levels to level and 8 pieces of armor and a couple of weapons to raid for just doesn't hold me very long

Originally posted by Tekton

Originally posted by Jerid13

 

I actually read the wall guys!

Here is whats wrong with the wall, your saying that you don't like endgame that makes you continually build your character up more and more grabbing at better gear new items and new skills and new high end difficult things to get.

Problem: Most RPG's are level builders, we enjoy making our characters stronger and stronger, getting better and better making old things that were once difficult easy and encountering new things that are amazingly hard and virtually impossible when you first see them.

We like challenge, and we like level building...

RPG = LEVEL BUILDING

How many times have I played a final fantasy game and leveled the characters to 99 even though you only needed to get to 50 to win?

How many people have played Oblivion or Morrowind or any other game with levels where you didn't do the main story until you character was a beefed up and powerful as you could make it, why?  

BECAUSE WE LIKE LEVEL BUILDING

 

Amen brother!

Yes the main issue is that "level building" was the keystone of single player RPG's.

What you are describing is exactly why MMO's based on the principle end up the way that they do.

I can write a wall of text if you really can't see the relation but.. we already had one or two of those this thread so I don't want to really add my own.

The *hint* if you need one.. is to look at every level based MMO where you make your character stronger and stronger.  No matter which MMO's you take and how different they may seem... They will all end up in the same "cycle" at the end.  Which is pretty much where most people quit (the ones that do quit).

sounds to me like you limited YOURSELF. why were those 3 or 4 raids the ONLY ones you did? stop treating the game like a 2nd job. try forgetting about DKP's and  stats and getting the "right" gear.. try HAVING FUN. why does it have to be so serious?

people these days are so focused on being uber or being "geared" that they forget to have fun

Same here with me. It's been fun rushing my priest to 80 and to be among the first couple of 80s on my server. This way i've had a guaranteed spot on every group and quickly made my way around in all the heroics in the very early days of WotLK, progressing fast. My priest was set with decent equip pretty soon while most of my guildies where still behind leveling. I pulled a DK and my old druid to 80 right after while my guild slowly got ready to raid.

With my already full epic Holypriest i was now in for every heroic, every naxx 10 and 25 with my guild. My weekly schedule looked like 3 days 25 naxx/sarth/archa, 2 days 10 naxx/sarth/archa + helping my guildies in heroics around the clock inbetween. After about 2,5 month my priest was fully decked in with 25er equip and except for Sarth3D i had done and seen everything WotLK in and out countless times. So i started playing my druid more and more often, looking for a change...one evening in naxx 10 again, i suddenly started to wonder what i was doing. I realized that i didn't had a different gaming experience every day, but repeated "the same day" over and over again in the game for month already.

4 times a week in Naxxramas with both my priest and druid i just got a boredom-overkill and quit playing WoW altogether. To my surprise, my guild leader got very upset about me leaving. The following arguement with her and some other few people of my guild was the nail in the coffin because it showed me that i didnt only spent my time in the same-o-same raid over and over, but also spent it with people who got all over me when i dared to think out of the box and criticised their "precious". So i turned my back on both the game and the guild and although it was a bit strange the first couple of days, i felt a major relief being out of the threadmill soon after.

I'm now playing Oblivion, tuned with a ton of plugins and i SO enjoy the opportunities and freedom in and outside the game.

Originally posted by Jerid13 

I actually read the wall guys!

Here is whats wrong with the wall, your saying that you don't like endgame that makes you continually build your character up more and more grabbing at better gear new items and new skills and new high end difficult things to get.

Problem: Most RPG's are level builders, we enjoy making our characters stronger and stronger, getting better and better making old things that were once difficult easy and encountering new things that are amazingly hard and virtually impossible when you first see them.

We like challenge, and we like level building...

RPG = LEVEL BUILDING

How many times have I played a final fantasy game and leveled the characters to 99 even though you only needed to get to 50 to win?

How many people have played Oblivion or Morrowind or any other game with levels where you didn't do the main story until you character was a beefed up and powerful as you could make it, why?  

BECAUSE WE LIKE LEVEL BUILDING

If you're still leveling and going through content at a considerable pace, you're not yet at the endgame.  If the endgame is based on leveling to make you stronger, then it intrinsically has to be incredibly grindy.  The only plausible way around that is randomly generated content, which might someday be done well, but would be really hard to code.  If you don't mind doing one instance a dozen times before going on to the next--and then repeating with your next character, and the one after that, then that's fine for you.  But I don't like that, and apparently the original poster on this thread doesn't like it, either.  Stopping the leveling treadmill and getting off is the only fix for that that I'm aware of.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Congratulations.  You've figured out why most MMORPG endgames are awful.  This takes a lot of people a very long time to figure out, if they ever do.

The basic problem is that the endgame is what a company gives you to after you've already done everything worth doing, hoping that you won't catch on and will keep paying the monthly fee.  The key property is something that takes minimal development time to create, but enormous amounts of player time to complete.  A company can't allow you to ever have the best of all possible gear.  If they let you get by without doing any particular instance more than once or twice, you'll run out of content very quickly.  Thus, the company has to ensure that you'll have to grind through a particular dungeon many times before you can go on to the next.  A lot of MMORPG players can't really imagine that it could be otherwise, so they put up with it.

I too find it amazing that people are content with the hamster wheel, but ho hum.

That said, the other MMO model is that endgame is pvp, and ideally pvp that in some way affects the gameworld, however briefly.

Lineage 2.  Will be a challenge to reach the top levels with all the extras and you can fight in major clan wars at end game.