Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by gruminator

cheating is wrong, we can all agree on that, right?

IF you agree that cheating is wrong, why dont you agree AV should do something about it, aka improving the game?

make it less attractive to cheat.

how on earth is making the game better so  (most) people wont cheat a bad thing?

 

Cheating is wrong, yes.

I play the game and do not cheat. AV is supposedly banning cheaters, we'll see.

The people that won't cheat don't. The people that will cheat, do...

 

Bottom line is that if you don't like the game, don't play it. Nothing rationalizes cheating, imo.

 

 

 

you just wont accept that something can be wrong with Darkfall wont you?

i bet you would call tasos himself a liar, if he said they might have made a few mistakes.
 

i have NEVER defended cheating, its just your warped fanbot logic that can't see that.

you think banning is the best way to counter cheating.

i think the game should be changed so people wont get tempted to cheat. (makes it less grindy and more fun)

Originally posted by Random_mage

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Random_mage 

 

It's funny. You say you don't understand my point, but then you say  you disagree with it.   This shows that you are nothing more than ignorant.

It's too bad you don't see the point.  I will break it down for you in simple sentences. 

Aventurine made a game.

Aventurine didn't put much thought into the tedium of their game.

People noticed this right away

People developed ways to cheat to avoid this tedium

Generally speaking, when people first play a new game, they are excited about playing the game the way it was designed.

In this case, people were macroing even in the beta. Which means that said people were never excited about playing Darkfall the right way.

Aventurine didn't care about this.

Therefor, Aventurine has a huge flaw in their game.  The "amazing" skill system is nothing more than crap.  It's primarlity a FPS, or at least that's what people are making it my macroing.

 

I am sorry to have posted a position that seems difficult for you to grasp. Perhaps this is not your first language.

What does anything you just posted have to do with what I actually wrote?

 

I'm trying to help you comprehend why you are wrong.   I know it may be hard to conceptualize being so far behind darkfall, but you are wrong.  Aventurine created a sub-par game that was toted as something that was AMAZING and REVOLUTIONARY all the while saying it was a step back to old school gaming.  They created a boring game that you have to macro through before it becomes fun.  Why play Darkfall when you can pick up Counter-strike or one of the hunders of FPS and get started right away?

You fall into the subset of Darkfall fans who.. just don't get it.  I have great pitty for you. 

Best of luck to you in your Darkfall adventures, may the downtime be little, the queues be short, and Aventurine blinders be intact!

Darkfall is amazing and revolutionary.  The only problem here is you.  Are you so set to the way of WoW that you cannot play the game without macroing to higher levels of skill.  Why don't you actually play the game.    Why not pick up CS?  Because I like to play MMO's.  It's too bad the genre has been pissed on for so many years though.  From the way you write it seems like you have only experienced a fraction of what darkfall has to offer.

Originally posted by Ruyn

Darkfall is amazing and revolutionary.

Not even.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Ruyn

Darkfall is amazing and revolutionary.

 

Not even.

But it is fun.

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Ruyn

Darkfall is amazing and revolutionary.

 

Not even.

Have you played?

Originally posted by Random_mage

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

It is easy for me to cheat at cards. I do not, because I am not a cheater.

If I were a cheater, then I would probably cheat at cards, especially if I thought I could get away with it.

Thinking I can do so, without reprcussions does not  make me any less of a cheater,  on the contrary, It would also make me  a coward.

That is the point.

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Random_mage

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

 

It is easy for me to cheat at cards. I do not, because I am not a cheater.

If I were a cheater, then I would probably cheat at cards, especially if I thought I could get away with it.

Thinking I can do so, without reprcussions does not  make me any less of a cheater,  on the contrary, It would also make me  a coward.

 

That is the point.

There is a reasons why casinos monitor the game floor and the players. They do this to protect other gamblers and themselves against those who lack integrity.

Same with online games. Some people will cheat no matter what. Games need to protect the non-cheaters and the best way to do so is by implementing certain mechanisms within the game which will detect the cheaters and then act accordingly.

Calling cheaters cowards or attempting to appeal to their better nature will probably not deter most of them.

Originally posted by heartless

There is a reasons why casinos monitor the game floor and the players. They do this to protect other gamblers and themselves against those who lack integrity.

Same with online games. Some people will cheat no matter what. Games need to protect the non-cheaters and the best way to do so is by implementing certain mechanisms within the game which will detect the cheaters and then act accordingly.

Calling cheaters cowards or attempting to appeal to their better nature will probably not deter most of them.

I agree.

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Random_mage

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

 

It is easy for me to cheat at cards. I do not, because I am not a cheater.

If I were a cheater, then I would probably cheat at cards, especially if I thought I could get away with it.

Thinking I can do so, without reprcussions does not  make me any less of a cheater,  on the contrary, It would also make me  a coward.

 

That is the point.

Your flawed understanding of this whole cheating issue seems to be based on your utopian, simplistic view of life. You argue that cheating is bad and therefore no-one should do it, and that if people are cheating in a game it is solely their fault and responsibility and nobody else's.

This is clearly not the case in the real world.

As others have correctly pointed out, Aventurine's reactionary attempts to control the problem simply by banning those users whom they find to be cheating is not in itself a solution since it does not address the root cause of the problem - that in this game more than most there is a fatal combination of

  1. a lack of interesting content that would render cheating detrimental to your overall enjoyment of the skill/resource gain process ('grind')

  2. a gaping hole in their security caused by the clientside-heavy nature of the software

  3. the highly (I would say solely) competitive nature of the game, which attracts the sort of players (driven, competitive) who are more likely to use every available means to gain an advantage over their fellow gamers

Earlier you used an overly simplistic analogy wherein you equated cheating with 'stealing a cake', and argued that you could not be blamed for placing a cake on display in your shop which was then subsequently stolen. I would challenge you to try to convince your insurance assessor of your lack of contributory negligence, given that you apparently put your stolen cake on display in an empty unlocked shop in a poor, starving neighbourhood next to a sign that reads "Thieves Will Be Prosecuted If Caught In The Act Of Stealing".

Of course I'm no arguing that cheaters are not responsible, but the plain fact is that simply trying to ban those you catch is an ineffective solution (as shown by other similar titles like Lineage 2). In all likelihood you will never convince cheaters to stop cheating, and so the balance of responsibility shifts back to Aventurine to find a better way of addressing the problem. Whether through a lack of concern or a lack of resources, this not something which they seem in any particular hurry to do.

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Random_mage

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

 

It is easy for me to cheat at cards. I do not, because I am not a cheater.

If I were a cheater, then I would probably cheat at cards, especially if I thought I could get away with it.

Thinking I can do so, without reprcussions does not  make me any less of a cheater,  on the contrary, It would also make me  a coward.

 

That is the point.

 

Your flawed understanding of this whole cheating issue seems to be based on your utopian, simplistic view of life. You argue that cheating is bad and therefore no-one should do it, and that if people are cheating in a game it is solely their fault and responsibility and nobody else's.

This is clearly not the case in the real world.

As others have correctly pointed out, Aventurine's reactionary attempts to control the problem simply by banning those users whom they find to be cheating is not in itself a solution since it does not address the root cause of the problem - that in this game more than most there is a fatal combination of

  1. a lack of interesting content that would render cheating detrimental to your overall enjoyment of the skill/resource gain process ('grind')

  2. a gaping hole in their security caused by the clientside-heavy nature of the software

  3. the highly (I would say solely) competitive nature of the game, which attracts the sort of players (driven, competitive) who are more likely to use every available means to gain an advantage over their fellow gamers

Earlier you used an overly simplistic analogy wherein you equated cheating with 'stealing a cake', and argued that you could not be blamed for placing a cake on display in your shop which was then subsequently stolen. I would challenge you to try to convince your insurance assessor of your lack of contributory negligence, given that you apparently put your stolen cake on display in an empty unlocked shop in a poor, starving neighbourhood next to a sign that reads "Thieves Will Be Prosecuted If Caught In The Act Of Stealing".

Of course I'm no arguing that cheaters are not responsible, but the plain fact is that simply trying to ban those you catch is an ineffective solution (as shown by other similar titles like Lineage 2). In all likelihood you will never convince cheaters to stop cheating, and so the balance of responsibility shifts back to Aventurine to find a better way of addressing the problem. Whether through a lack of concern or a lack of resources, this not something which they seem in any particular hurry to do.

Sadly, you have missed the entire point of the conversation, which was that just because a game may have boring mechanics to some, that in itself does not justify cheating.

Nothing more.

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Random_mage

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

 

It is easy for me to cheat at cards. I do not, because I am not a cheater.

If I were a cheater, then I would probably cheat at cards, especially if I thought I could get away with it.

Thinking I can do so, without reprcussions does not  make me any less of a cheater,  on the contrary, It would also make me  a coward.

 

That is the point.

 

Your flawed understanding of this whole cheating issue seems to be based on your utopian, simplistic view of life. You argue that cheating is bad and therefore no-one should do it, and that if people are cheating in a game it is solely their fault and responsibility and nobody else's.

This is clearly not the case in the real world.

As others have correctly pointed out, Aventurine's reactionary attempts to control the problem simply by banning those users whom they find to be cheating is not in itself a solution since it does not address the root cause of the problem - that in this game more than most there is a fatal combination of

  1. a lack of interesting content that would render cheating detrimental to your overall enjoyment of the skill/resource gain process ('grind')

  2. a gaping hole in their security caused by the clientside-heavy nature of the software

  3. the highly (I would say solely) competitive nature of the game, which attracts the sort of players (driven, competitive) who are more likely to use every available means to gain an advantage over their fellow gamers

Earlier you used an overly simplistic analogy wherein you equated cheating with 'stealing a cake', and argued that you could not be blamed for placing a cake on display in your shop which was then subsequently stolen. I would challenge you to try to convince your insurance assessor of your lack of contributory negligence, given that you apparently put your stolen cake on display in an empty unlocked shop in a poor, starving neighbourhood next to a sign that reads "Thieves Will Be Prosecuted If Caught In The Act Of Stealing".

Of course I'm no arguing that cheaters are not responsible, but the plain fact is that simply trying to ban those you catch is an ineffective solution (as shown by other similar titles like Lineage 2). In all likelihood you will never convince cheaters to stop cheating, and so the balance of responsibility shifts back to Aventurine to find a better way of addressing the problem. Whether through a lack of concern or a lack of resources, this not something which they seem in any particular hurry to do.

 

Sadly, you have missed the entire point of the conversation, which was that just because a game may have boring mechanics to some, that in itself does not justify cheating.

 

Nothing more.

Heh.

No, that was just the point you keep falling back on since you were unable to answer (perhaps understand?) the the clear and logical arguments before you.

The actual point is that this game is seriously flawed because cheating is a major issue, and Aventurine's feeble attempts to control this are little more than an ineffectual PR exercise.

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Random_mage

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

 

It is easy for me to cheat at cards. I do not, because I am not a cheater.

If I were a cheater, then I would probably cheat at cards, especially if I thought I could get away with it.

Thinking I can do so, without reprcussions does not  make me any less of a cheater,  on the contrary, It would also make me  a coward.

 

That is the point.

 

Your flawed understanding of this whole cheating issue seems to be based on your utopian, simplistic view of life. You argue that cheating is bad and therefore no-one should do it, and that if people are cheating in a game it is solely their fault and responsibility and nobody else's.

This is clearly not the case in the real world.

As others have correctly pointed out, Aventurine's reactionary attempts to control the problem simply by banning those users whom they find to be cheating is not in itself a solution since it does not address the root cause of the problem - that in this game more than most there is a fatal combination of

  1. a lack of interesting content that would render cheating detrimental to your overall enjoyment of the skill/resource gain process ('grind')

  2. a gaping hole in their security caused by the clientside-heavy nature of the software

  3. the highly (I would say solely) competitive nature of the game, which attracts the sort of players (driven, competitive) who are more likely to use every available means to gain an advantage over their fellow gamers

Earlier you used an overly simplistic analogy wherein you equated cheating with 'stealing a cake', and argued that you could not be blamed for placing a cake on display in your shop which was then subsequently stolen. I would challenge you to try to convince your insurance assessor of your lack of contributory negligence, given that you apparently put your stolen cake on display in an empty unlocked shop in a poor, starving neighbourhood next to a sign that reads "Thieves Will Be Prosecuted If Caught In The Act Of Stealing".

Of course I'm no arguing that cheaters are not responsible, but the plain fact is that simply trying to ban those you catch is an ineffective solution (as shown by other similar titles like Lineage 2). In all likelihood you will never convince cheaters to stop cheating, and so the balance of responsibility shifts back to Aventurine to find a better way of addressing the problem. Whether through a lack of concern or a lack of resources, this not something which they seem in any particular hurry to do.

 

Sadly, you have missed the entire point of the conversation, which was that just because a game may have boring mechanics to some, that in itself does not justify cheating.

 

Nothing more.

 

Heh.

No, that was just the point you keep falling back on since you were unable to answer (perhaps understand?) the the clear and logical arguments before you.

The actual point is that this game is seriously flawed because cheating is a major issue, and Aventurine's feeble attempts to control this are little more than an ineffectual PR exercise.

I didn't argue that point because cheating is a major issue in most PVP MMO's as far as I am concerned.

Name one where it isn't.

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Random_mage

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

 

It is easy for me to cheat at cards. I do not, because I am not a cheater.

If I were a cheater, then I would probably cheat at cards, especially if I thought I could get away with it.

Thinking I can do so, without reprcussions does not  make me any less of a cheater,  on the contrary, It would also make me  a coward.

 

That is the point.

 

Your flawed understanding of this whole cheating issue seems to be based on your utopian, simplistic view of life. You argue that cheating is bad and therefore no-one should do it, and that if people are cheating in a game it is solely their fault and responsibility and nobody else's.

This is clearly not the case in the real world.

As others have correctly pointed out, Aventurine's reactionary attempts to control the problem simply by banning those users whom they find to be cheating is not in itself a solution since it does not address the root cause of the problem - that in this game more than most there is a fatal combination of

  1. a lack of interesting content that would render cheating detrimental to your overall enjoyment of the skill/resource gain process ('grind')

  2. a gaping hole in their security caused by the clientside-heavy nature of the software

  3. the highly (I would say solely) competitive nature of the game, which attracts the sort of players (driven, competitive) who are more likely to use every available means to gain an advantage over their fellow gamers

Earlier you used an overly simplistic analogy wherein you equated cheating with 'stealing a cake', and argued that you could not be blamed for placing a cake on display in your shop which was then subsequently stolen. I would challenge you to try to convince your insurance assessor of your lack of contributory negligence, given that you apparently put your stolen cake on display in an empty unlocked shop in a poor, starving neighbourhood next to a sign that reads "Thieves Will Be Prosecuted If Caught In The Act Of Stealing".

Of course I'm no arguing that cheaters are not responsible, but the plain fact is that simply trying to ban those you catch is an ineffective solution (as shown by other similar titles like Lineage 2). In all likelihood you will never convince cheaters to stop cheating, and so the balance of responsibility shifts back to Aventurine to find a better way of addressing the problem. Whether through a lack of concern or a lack of resources, this not something which they seem in any particular hurry to do.

 

Sadly, you have missed the entire point of the conversation, which was that just because a game may have boring mechanics to some, that in itself does not justify cheating.

 

Nothing more.

 

Heh.

No, that was just the point you keep falling back on since you were unable to answer (perhaps understand?) the the clear and logical arguments before you.

The actual point is that this game is seriously flawed because cheating is a major issue, and Aventurine's feeble attempts to control this are little more than an ineffectual PR exercise.

 

I didn't argue that point because cheating is a major issue in most PVP MMO's as far as I am concerned.

 

Name one where it isn't.

There is a difference between botting and cheating. WoW, War, AoC, Lotr = bots not cheats.

DF = cheats. Can you name one other pay mmo not f2p where there is teleport/speedhacks? Sure there is speed hacks for the above mentioned MMOs, on private servers. Too bad DF only has one server and it isn't private. Or is it... hmm... If you deny the teleport/speedhacks then you're crazy. It's well documented. Since most the info is client side I wouldn't be surprised if there were even worse hacks. Ive heard of people duping in DF already. 

Originally posted by loxleynew

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Random_mage

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

 

It is easy for me to cheat at cards. I do not, because I am not a cheater.

If I were a cheater, then I would probably cheat at cards, especially if I thought I could get away with it.

Thinking I can do so, without reprcussions does not  make me any less of a cheater,  on the contrary, It would also make me  a coward.

 

That is the point.

 

Your flawed understanding of this whole cheating issue seems to be based on your utopian, simplistic view of life. You argue that cheating is bad and therefore no-one should do it, and that if people are cheating in a game it is solely their fault and responsibility and nobody else's.

This is clearly not the case in the real world.

As others have correctly pointed out, Aventurine's reactionary attempts to control the problem simply by banning those users whom they find to be cheating is not in itself a solution since it does not address the root cause of the problem - that in this game more than most there is a fatal combination of

  1. a lack of interesting content that would render cheating detrimental to your overall enjoyment of the skill/resource gain process ('grind')

  2. a gaping hole in their security caused by the clientside-heavy nature of the software

  3. the highly (I would say solely) competitive nature of the game, which attracts the sort of players (driven, competitive) who are more likely to use every available means to gain an advantage over their fellow gamers

Earlier you used an overly simplistic analogy wherein you equated cheating with 'stealing a cake', and argued that you could not be blamed for placing a cake on display in your shop which was then subsequently stolen. I would challenge you to try to convince your insurance assessor of your lack of contributory negligence, given that you apparently put your stolen cake on display in an empty unlocked shop in a poor, starving neighbourhood next to a sign that reads "Thieves Will Be Prosecuted If Caught In The Act Of Stealing".

Of course I'm no arguing that cheaters are not responsible, but the plain fact is that simply trying to ban those you catch is an ineffective solution (as shown by other similar titles like Lineage 2). In all likelihood you will never convince cheaters to stop cheating, and so the balance of responsibility shifts back to Aventurine to find a better way of addressing the problem. Whether through a lack of concern or a lack of resources, this not something which they seem in any particular hurry to do.

 

Sadly, you have missed the entire point of the conversation, which was that just because a game may have boring mechanics to some, that in itself does not justify cheating.

 

Nothing more.

 

Heh.

No, that was just the point you keep falling back on since you were unable to answer (perhaps understand?) the the clear and logical arguments before you.

The actual point is that this game is seriously flawed because cheating is a major issue, and Aventurine's feeble attempts to control this are little more than an ineffectual PR exercise.

 

I didn't argue that point because cheating is a major issue in most PVP MMO's as far as I am concerned.

 

Name one where it isn't.

There is a difference between botting and cheating. WoW, War, AoC, Lotr = bots not cheats.

DF = cheats. Can you name one other pay mmo not f2p where there is teleport/speedhacks? Sure there is speed hacks for the above mentioned MMOs, on private servers. Too bad DF only has one server and it isn't private. Or is it... hmm... If you deny the teleport/speedhacks then you're crazy. It's well documented. Since most the info is client side I wouldn't be surprised if there were even worse hacks. Ive heard of people duping in DF already. 

Actually, bot are cheats if the rules of the game, as determined by the devs, state they are not allowed. You don't have to hack the game client to be a cheater. But the point that robertb continually misses is that poor game design makes cheating easy in Darkfall. No one is "justifying" cheating, as he says, thereby creating an easy strawman rather than answer to actually points we make, which is that it is the job of the game designer to build a game where playing is the preferable method, not botting.

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Raknar

...

 

All I see is another elaborate attempt to rationalize and justify cheating in a video game.

 

Sad.

 

Of course you would. What a surprise.

His post was excellent and well thought out. Probably why you didn't get it.

Originally posted by Rohn

 

---

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

 

Wait till mages get their  high school masters and your current FOTM will be dieing like flies lol
 
And something about the rate ..
In a poll about how  players rate the game
The simaler rating of  6/10 have chosen  - 7,6 % 
worser then OP's rating - 25,59 %  (this includes the "neutral" voting (its not good but also not bad)  of 5 / 10)
higher rating then OP have chosen - 66,76 % 
 

---

 

DR, again, you miss the point.

If or when mages begin destroying the current FOTM build, then mages will become the new FOTM, and most players will start building toward that. The original point stands - with skill-based games, unless produced by a very sophisticated developer, most of them devolve into one homogenous build ruling the game at any one time.

That kills the entire "freedom" claim. Sure, you're free to develop a FOTM build and be competitive, or you're free to build a weak character that can't compete. Not much of a decision there, really. So much for freedom.

It's great that you love the game, but being blind and rabid doesn't help. A little objectivity is a good thing.

Exactly.  But why even respond to him with logic as he clearly has none.

Overall, excellent well thought-out and written review.  It just sounds like a game that really shouldn't be charging retail prices and subscription fees.  If the retail "box" (aka, download) was a bit cheaper, and subs were cheap, then maybe the few people playing it wouldn't feel irritated.

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Random_mage

Rob,

You have trouble reading, I get that.  It's still no excuse.

Right, cheating is wrong. 

I disagree that "cheaters will cheat".

Aventurine makes it easy for them to do so.  That is, makes it EASY for them to cheat.  Aventurine then rewards them for cheating by putting them vastly ahead of the competition.

Yet, you still only see the flaw in the player and not the game.

There are serveral games that pentalize cheaters.  Some use application monitoring systems, others say "okay, macro here, but if you macro where the best loot is, you'll get dead."

 

It is easy for me to cheat at cards. I do not, because I am not a cheater.

If I were a cheater, then I would probably cheat at cards, especially if I thought I could get away with it.

Thinking I can do so, without reprcussions does not  make me any less of a cheater,  on the contrary, It would also make me  a coward.

 

That is the point.

 

Your flawed understanding of this whole cheating issue seems to be based on your utopian, simplistic view of life. You argue that cheating is bad and therefore no-one should do it, and that if people are cheating in a game it is solely their fault and responsibility and nobody else's.

This is clearly not the case in the real world.

As others have correctly pointed out, Aventurine's reactionary attempts to control the problem simply by banning those users whom they find to be cheating is not in itself a solution since it does not address the root cause of the problem - that in this game more than most there is a fatal combination of

  1. a lack of interesting content that would render cheating detrimental to your overall enjoyment of the skill/resource gain process ('grind')

  2. a gaping hole in their security caused by the clientside-heavy nature of the software

  3. the highly (I would say solely) competitive nature of the game, which attracts the sort of players (driven, competitive) who are more likely to use every available means to gain an advantage over their fellow gamers

Earlier you used an overly simplistic analogy wherein you equated cheating with 'stealing a cake', and argued that you could not be blamed for placing a cake on display in your shop which was then subsequently stolen. I would challenge you to try to convince your insurance assessor of your lack of contributory negligence, given that you apparently put your stolen cake on display in an empty unlocked shop in a poor, starving neighbourhood next to a sign that reads "Thieves Will Be Prosecuted If Caught In The Act Of Stealing".

Of course I'm no arguing that cheaters are not responsible, but the plain fact is that simply trying to ban those you catch is an ineffective solution (as shown by other similar titles like Lineage 2). In all likelihood you will never convince cheaters to stop cheating, and so the balance of responsibility shifts back to Aventurine to find a better way of addressing the problem. Whether through a lack of concern or a lack of resources, this not something which they seem in any particular hurry to do.

Great post.  Though again I'd say, you are using reason to argue with people who don't use reason or logic.  That makes it impossible to prove your point.

Originally posted by Raknar

Actually, bot are cheats if the rules of the game, as determined by the devs, state they are not allowed. You don't have to hack the game client to be a cheater. But the point that robertb continually misses is that poor game design makes cheating easy in Darkfall. No one is "justifying" cheating, as he says, thereby creating an easy strawman rather than answer to actually points we make, which is that it is the job of the game designer to build a game where playing is the preferable method, not botting.

I do not miss the point. It simply is irrelevant to my position which is, once again, that cheating in a video game is unexcusable, no matter what sort of justification the cheater uses to rationalize it.

It is possible to cheat in any game ever  created. Doesn't mean that one is ever justified doing so. 

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by Raknar

Actually, bot are cheats if the rules of the game, as determined by the devs, state they are not allowed. You don't have to hack the game client to be a cheater. But the point that robertb continually misses is that poor game design makes cheating easy in Darkfall. No one is "justifying" cheating, as he says, thereby creating an easy strawman rather than answer to actually points we make, which is that it is the job of the game designer to build a game where playing is the preferable method, not botting.

 

I do not miss the point. It simply is irrelevant to my position which is, once again, that cheating in a video game is unexcusable, no matter what sort of justification the cheater uses to rationalize it.

 

It is possible to cheat in any game ever  created. Doesn't mean that one is ever justified doing so. 

And yet again you miss the point. You cannot dismiss it, because you are arguing againt a point that none of us are trying to make. No one in here said that cheating is good. No one said you should cheat. Now, tell me how Drakfall's gameplay does NOT make macroing the most efficient way to advance. That is the point here. The game mechanics in Darkfall are seemingly custom geared to macroing, so it attracts that type of player. The theme parks that you despise have few macroers, yet you tried to say theme park games attract more macroing, which does not make sense. DDO is probably, other than maybe Guild Wars, the theme parkiest of the theme parks. I highly doubt there is even one macroer in that game. Sure, I suppose you COULD write a bot ble to run an instance, but what would be the point? That would be far more work than actually playing the game.

As opposed to Darkfall, where the game design encourages macroing because it reward repetedly perfoming trivial actions. Why can you not understand that mana missile at clouds to train magic is a bad game design? Besides, Tasos has said repeatedly that macroing was OK. It was only recently that he tacked on "as long as you are at the computer". And even given that, it shows the flaw in the game design. The very fact that people would rather WATCH a macro play their charcter than play it themselves shows that the process is tedious, not fun. You don't even have to have a cheating mindset to want to have a better way to advance a skill other than spamming a click.

My long post earlier was meant to show a way to do just that. Make a skill based advancement system where you could not spam attacks at nothing to get better. But all you saw was "I cheat and here is why" because you are so happy under Tasos' desk that anything perceived as criticism to Darkfall must be spun into an attack on the poster.