Originally posted by goneglockin

The one thing to do the most damage to the genre so far has been SoE.  They made PlanetSide and introduced it to a handful of MMORPG orcs and dorks gamers who couldn't care less- so right from the get go it was, and remains- an extremely obscure title.  They never actually marketed the game.  Running a bit on your shitty launcher software to people who are already your customers to get them to sign up for a more expensive all access package IS NOT marketing.

To make matters worse they severely neglected the game.  They only allocated the minimum amount of resources to keep the game functioning.  Many issues were never resolved and the sporadic, meager handfuls of "content "did nothing to make up for that.  The game was never improved upon or refined.

When SoE did focus some attention on PlanetSide, they hurt it more than helped it with horrible design decisions that caused community uproar and cancellations.

It becomes very easy then to blame the genre as a failed concept instead of blaming the half-hearted, shallow attempt of SoE. 

 

Maybe the young kids are still amused with quicky death matches.  But there are MILLIONS of us in our 20's, 30's- etc. who are very fond of these gams; we've just been playing them for so long that we are ready for something else and we demand a little more. 

I'd wager that if you gave any veteran FPS gamer of 10 years or more a taste of MMOFPS, in the resemblence of PlanetSide, they would be insantly hooked on the premise.

I understand what you are trying to get across and I think you are correct; Howevever, Planetside is a game that should be mirrored after and approved upon rather then rejected.  Maybe we are in agreement on that aswell. 

Planetside is truly a gem in the coalmine.  I will just say that I bought the game for $5 and two expansions for less then $10.  Truly a shame, because this game expanded into areas of online gaming that no other game had previously done.  I truly believe that mmofps are a viable and profitable genre.  RPG elements have already been implemented in many FPS games that have player run servers.  The results are AWESOME.  But this marks amatuer progression.  Imagine what a real studio with strong financial backing can achieve. 

Planetside was ahead of it's time because before WoW the mmorpg genre was was niche and only for the "hardcore" and Planetside is a game that appeals to the FPS fan. If it launnched now, obviously with better graphics then it would have done really well because WoW opened up the eyes of alll people who play games to mmo's and most do infact want an mmofps cause they hate the WoW like combat and PVE.

However that said Planetside was always in decline because SOE never marketed it like CCP does with EVE and SOE never fixed the issues the community had with it. Instead the team got made to make an expansion ready for release 3 months after launch with added caverns to it noone cared about. So people who were tired of capturing the same base over and over left cause it wasn't what they wanted. Planetside stayed the same, unchanged until mid 2004 with BFR's and the bending. However BFRs ruined the game and the new Oshur didn't play well and noone ever goes there. BFRs I remember causing the subscription base to drop like the NGE and it never recovered. Planetside then remained unchanged ever since really and the bugs from back then are still there today and I saw the patch notes and there wasn't a patch from like August to December :\

The same story for all SOE's games really only EQ and EQ2 still get crap expansions for them. Don't forget though that Planetside did make a profit and it wasn't a failure because it provided alot of use with a few months of amazement... until SPE ruined it with CC and I quit.

Originally posted by TheHavok

Planetside is a game that should be mirrored after and approved upon rather then rejected.  Maybe we are in agreement on that aswell. 

Planetside is truly a gem in the coalmine. 

Absolutely.  The game was light years ahead of it's time. 

In may of 2003 it had top end graphics, it had the programming tricks to allow hundreds of players to cram into the same areas, and the netcode provided very reasonable responses in most instances considering the massive scale of the game.

This is one of the reasons SoE never really imrpoved upon the game as I understand, the code was proprietary and the original developers moved on.  The "maintenance team" couldn't really fix one thing without breaking another.

When I think of MMOFPS though, PlanetSide is without question the model and basis by which to judge all others.  There's lots of room for variation and improvement- but PlanetSide is MMOFPS's "rock."

Does anyone remember the mmo mechwarrior game?  It was in beta for about a year about 5 or 6 years ago.  I remember having a blast playing that game but they pulled the plug during open beta.  I still don't understand why, I think developers think that the mmofps market just isn't big enough to make a profit.

I don't see the value of a MMOFPS. If there is no char progression, then it would not be very different from an online FPS. Given online FPS can accomodate so many people (32? 64?) .... it makes no difference if i can see more real people on screen.

If you add in char progression, then it becomes an action RPG.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't see the value of a MMOFPS. If there is no char progression, then it would not be very different from an online FPS. Given online FPS can accomodate so many people (32? 64?) .... it makes no difference if i can see more real people on screen.

If you add in char progression, then it becomes an action RPG.

... Who says there can be no character progression in a first person shooter. Sigh.

More importantly though, in a MMOFPS, you get to fight in a world, instead of a random and enclosed map. The experience is dynamic and epic, something you don't really get in regular shooters. You could take a modern MMOFPS in any direction, and most certaily create a fantastic game.

I just don't think the gaming companies are ready for it. They look at Planetside and say "oh well that didn't go too well did it?" and give up on the idea.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I think you're almost there, but not quite. Many players like BOTH kinds of games. For example, I've spoken with countless MMORPG players, that also like to play Call of Duty, or Battlefield games, and other First Person Shooters.uld not want that combat style in my MMORPG. I play MMORPGs to take a break from First Person Shooters, and vice a versa.

I don't doubt that at all. You can see that in programs like XFire where the same crowd that plays WOW and EQ2 is also heavy into TF2 and other FPS games. I beleive the comment you are contesting is this one:

"Most MMO gamers really do not want a game that is based on player skill because it means an unlevel playing field."

It still holds true. I should have clarified that they do not want an MMO based on player skill, but since we were talking about MMOs I didn't think that was necessary.

CoD, BF and other FPSs provide the perception that it is a level playing field. Whether it is or isn't is another story. However, in an MMO there are too many other 'excuses'. You will very rarely hear someone say their opponent in an MMO simply outsmarted them. You *will* hear that

- they chugged pots

- they had better gear

- they were higher level

- they use an OP class

- they had imba weapons

Alos, in an FPS, you are in a constant state of battle. Here's the key: You are only battling when you choose to. In an MMO, even in a combat situation, it is very easy for a player to drop his guard or become unaware. They then become susceptible to ambush, sneak attacks, or plenty of other legitimate tactics that they will file under...

They ganked me.

FPS gameplay is usually tied to more active gaming and constant awareness - not necessarily what most MMO gamers are looking for in their MMOs, but something they accept and enjoy in FPSs because they have logged in with the intent to do battle and in an environment where the perception is that there is nothing extraneous that can unlevle the playing field.

For the few weeks back when it first launched, the only thing I was thinking about while playing PS, was why do I have to waste the time to travel & level up when all I want to do is fight.  Theres nothing else to do except fight.  The amount of progress I saw was mimal at best and the next night it rarely progressed anywhere.  Or, any progress we made was then lost .   So I wasn't seeing much progress for a MMO.  That got pretty boring after a few weeks.

Since fighting was the whole point, what did PS offer me the UT2k3 didn't?  Not much.  The gameplay was nowhere as fluid as UT.   The rush wasn't there.  You weren't really aiming in PS.  You just targeted people by holding the reticle over them and stats determined hitting and missing.  It wasn't really an FPS.  Just a regular MMO from a 1st person perspective with no autoattack.  The graphics weren't comparable.  The battlefield was quite boring.  Just open empty space with a rather generic base here and there.  There wasn't much communication, so whatever epic feel they were going for was lost.  It was just a big free for all.  NO real strategy at all.  Compare that with your average UT map and it felt stale, slow and boring.  

The overall art design in PS was boring sci-fi.  Not creative looking at all.  The weapons were boring.  All the suits were boring as well.  The bases were as generic looking as they came.   Not inspiring.

So, I was paying a monthly fee to travel to a fight that wasn't nearly as exciting as UT.  I had to deal with downtime between deaths, travel time, LAG and latency.  My skill didn't matter really at all.  Aiming and missing was frustrating since when I'm playing an FPS, I don't expect to keep missing when it looks like I'm hitting over and over again.  I know it was still an RPG, but the "feeling" wasn't there.   I wasn't seeing 100s of people on the map at the same time.  In UT I could play 40 vs 40 and really see everyone without much lag at all.  WHen lots of people were near eachother in PS, there was LOADS of lag and rubber banding.  Not fun.

I understand it probably got better over the years, but I didn't care.  All that mattered was that 1st month and it failed to devliver anything I wasn't already getting from UT.  Thats the reason PS failed.  The experience was too lackluster to bother investing the time.  I'm not investing anything in an FPS.  I log in.  I play.  I have fun.  I log out.  PS just didn't fit anywhere.  It wasn't a good RPG and it wasn't a good FPS.  It was just a bad mixture wrapped up in a pretty boring wrapper.  SOE didn't support it because the players didn't see anything worth supporting.  

I've  been waiting for another mmofps for along time now. I played WW2 Online and Planetside and I enjoyed both of them. WW2 online had lack of players for it to be casual friendly and was pretty tedious. Planetside was great until they added the BFR's and made it super imbalanced.

All they need to do is make a MMOCOD or something where it is set in a time of war. Have there be 2 sides, allies and axis, with 3 or so countries fighting for each side. Same set up as most games now with RvR or alliances and enemies. Then you can fight over land and control over another country.

Have it set up just like CoD but in a seamless world.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't see the value of a MMOFPS. If there is no char progression, then it would not be very different from an online FPS. Given online FPS can accomodate so many people (32? 64?) .... it makes no difference if i can see more real people on screen.

If you add in char progression, then it becomes an action RPG.

I'm confused even FPS now have char progression. Ever play BF2142? Call of Duty 4??? Rainbow Six? They ALL have some form of char progression. It's just a lot less sucky then traditional MMORPG. Newbies got fair chance against a vet- rather then totally getting raped by vets like you see in Level based mmos

@ Josher

if you think UT2k3 > PS tell me why UT2k3 is long forgotten, is also worst of all series and ppl DONT WANT TO PLAY IT ANYMORE unlike PlanetSide? In fact PS lives still while UT2k3 is dead already - says enough. And yes - i know what im talking about, since im playing original Unreal Tournament for 8 years now, and it has biggest community from all Unreal Tournament series games.

There is a place for decent mmofps. I think there would be plenty of FPS players playing game like this if there was good balance between rpg and fps attributes innit. I would play such game for sure.

Originally posted by Josher
...

   I wasn't seeing 100s of people on the map at the same time.  In UT I could play 40 vs 40 and really see everyone without much lag at all.  WHen lots of people were near eachother in PS, there was LOADS of lag and rubber banding.  Not fun.

....

 

UT3 allows 40 vs 40??? I dont recall seeing this

Originally posted by Josher

  You weren't really aiming in PS.  You just targeted people by holding the reticle over them and stats determined hitting and missing.  It wasn't really an FPS.  Just a regular MMO from a 1st person perspective with no autoattack.  The graphics weren't comparable.  T

Did you even play Planetside?

Cause i dunno... but in 6 years of playing Planetside im yet to see a stat that effects my hit/miss rate...OR ANY STATS FOR THAT MATTER.

Originally posted by Zzulu

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't see the value of a MMOFPS. If there is no char progression, then it would not be very different from an online FPS. Given online FPS can accomodate so many people (32? 64?) .... it makes no difference if i can see more real people on screen.

If you add in char progression, then it becomes an action RPG.

 

... Who says there can be no character progression in a first person shooter. Sigh.

More importantly though, in a MMOFPS, you get to fight in a world, instead of a random and enclosed map. The experience is dynamic and epic, something you don't really get in regular shooters. You could take a modern MMOFPS in any direction, and most certaily create a fantastic game.

I just don't think the gaming companies are ready for it. They look at Planetside and say "oh well that didn't go too well did it?" and give up on the idea.

 

 

There is no difference between a world and a big map. Today's technology does not allow for dynamic terrain deformation anyway so your world is going to have static terrain geometry anyway.

"epic" or not is just a feeling. Given a big enough map and enough people, it is epic.

And any FPS games is dynamic anyway. You have people being killed, controll points changing hands.

The question is what a persistent world brings? The answer is nothing .. it is no difference than a big map with a long long running time. And i am not sure you need to get rid of map resets (non-persistent world) to have fun.

And you are right. Planetside does not go so well. Lots of ONLINE  FPS are doing much much better (say CoD5). FPS is about shooting people in interesting ways. I do think MMO features can bring a lot to it. I have been in like 30 vs 30 battles. Anything more won't feel grander.

Originally posted by girlgeek

Wow, and all this time I thought that Tabula Rasa had been an MMOFPS....no?  O.o

No, it never was.

Originally posted by Josher

For the few weeks back when it first launched, the only thing I was thinking about while playing PS, was why do I have to waste the time to travel & level up when all I want to do is fight.  Theres nothing else to do except fight.  The amount of progress I saw was mimal at best and the next night it rarely progressed anywhere.  Or, any progress we made was then lost .   So I wasn't seeing much progress for a MMO.  That got pretty boring after a few weeks.

Since fighting was the whole point, what did PS offer me the UT2k3 didn't?  Not much.  The gameplay was nowhere as fluid as UT.   The rush wasn't there.  You weren't really aiming in PS.  You just targeted people by holding the reticle over them and stats determined hitting and missing.  It wasn't really an FPS.  Just a regular MMO from a 1st person perspective with no autoattack.  The graphics weren't comparable.  The battlefield was quite boring.  Just open empty space with a rather generic base here and there.  There wasn't much communication, so whatever epic feel they were going for was lost.  It was just a big free for all.  NO real strategy at all.  Compare that with your average UT map and it felt stale, slow and boring.  

The overall art design in PS was boring sci-fi.  Not creative looking at all.  The weapons were boring.  All the suits were boring as well.  The bases were as generic looking as they came.   Not inspiring.

So, I was paying a monthly fee to travel to a fight that wasn't nearly as exciting as UT.  I had to deal with downtime between deaths, travel time, LAG and latency.  My skill didn't matter really at all.  Aiming and missing was frustrating since when I'm playing an FPS, I don't expect to keep missing when it looks like I'm hitting over and over again.  I know it was still an RPG, but the "feeling" wasn't there.   I wasn't seeing 100s of people on the map at the same time.  In UT I could play 40 vs 40 and really see everyone without much lag at all.  WHen lots of people were near eachother in PS, there was LOADS of lag and rubber banding.  Not fun.

I understand it probably got better over the years, but I didn't care.  All that mattered was that 1st month and it failed to devliver anything I wasn't already getting from UT.  Thats the reason PS failed.  The experience was too lackluster to bother investing the time.  I'm not investing anything in an FPS.  I log in.  I play.  I have fun.  I log out.  PS just didn't fit anywhere.  It wasn't a good RPG and it wasn't a good FPS.  It was just a bad mixture wrapped up in a pretty boring wrapper.  SOE didn't support it because the players didn't see anything worth supporting.  

 

Increasingly incorrect. on all most all accounts.

Hmm.. I want

1.  CS:S shooting style

2.  Urban Combat

3.  Modern day weapons (no future/fantasy)

4.  Non instanced

5.  World PvP Objectives (not too many though so you can have concentrated pvp)

6.  PvE Dungeons wouldnt be bad, much like a campaign on any CoD.

7.  Character progression that doesnt make you OP, skill based please.

I really dont understand why this is so hard to make?

It would require less content, no need for a insane amount of quests or rediculous armor stats and armor graphics.  Dont have to release a new raid every 6 months.....  Developers are stupid for not releasing a decent MMOFPS

Aye, I had some real good times gaming with Planetside...I've played many traditional FPS over the years before and since and there really isn't anything like PS was when it was in it's prime. 

I was always willing to put up with client side hit detection and the aging graphics, as long as the playerbase was strong. Unfortunately, despite fond memories, without the players it wasn't an MMO anymore in anything but name and became a lacklustre and tedious FPS. With a strong playerbase the MMO aspects and variety of playstyles were amazing...200 vs. 200 outdoor battles, while a combination of crack and zerg troops simultaneously sieged inside a base were hours spent in front of a PC screen I do not regret one bit.

It was those experiences that have meant I do not settle for less nowadays when it comes to MMO's, hence I have been playing standard online FPS and single player games for a couple of years now in my free time. Game developers and publishers really should wake up to the potential that a game geared and marketed toward the FPS playerbase (yes, I appreciate that there is crossover) and based upon the fundamental premise of Planetside holds. Integrating true MMO gaming, hundreds and thousands of gamers simultaneously playing together, into the FPS genre is something that has real potential to explode.

Despite the technology existing and the target playerbase obvious...I've not seen or heard about anything that appears like it will deliver the goods yet and to be honest I doubt anything will, until a certain misconception that the MMO prefix is only relevant to the RPG genre is shattered and buried.

Originally posted by Auzy

Hmm.. I want

1.  CS:S shooting style

2.  Urban Combat

3.  Modern day weapons (no future/fantasy)

4.  Non instanced

5.  World PvP Objectives (not too many though so you can have concentrated pvp)

6.  PvE Dungeons wouldnt be bad, much like a campaign on any CoD.

7.  Character progression that doesnt make you OP, skill based please.

I really dont understand why this is so hard to make?

It would require less content, no need for a insane amount of quests or rediculous armor stats and armor graphics.  Dont have to release a new raid every 6 months.....  Developers are stupid for not releasing a decent MMOFPS

so in other words you want planetside as a tactical shooter, set in 2010 instead of being sci-fi and with PvE content?
 

Originally posted by Josher

For the few weeks back when it first launched, the only thing I was thinking about while playing PS, was why do I have to waste the time to travel & level up when all I want to do is fight.  Theres nothing else to do except fight.  The amount of progress I saw was mimal at best and the next night it rarely progressed anywhere.  Or, any progress we made was then lost .   So I wasn't seeing much progress for a MMO.  That got pretty boring after a few weeks.

Since fighting was the whole point, what did PS offer me the UT2k3 didn't?  Not much.  The gameplay was nowhere as fluid as UT.   The rush wasn't there.  You weren't really aiming in PS.  You just targeted people by holding the reticle over them and stats determined hitting and missing.  It wasn't really an FPS.  Just a regular MMO from a 1st person perspective with no autoattack.  The graphics weren't comparable.  The battlefield was quite boring.  Just open empty space with a rather generic base here and there.  There wasn't much communication, so whatever epic feel they were going for was lost.  It was just a big free for all.  NO real strategy at all.  Compare that with your average UT map and it felt stale, slow and boring.  

The overall art design in PS was boring sci-fi.  Not creative looking at all.  The weapons were boring.  All the suits were boring as well.  The bases were as generic looking as they came.   Not inspiring.

So, I was paying a monthly fee to travel to a fight that wasn't nearly as exciting as UT.  I had to deal with downtime between deaths, travel time, LAG and latency.  My skill didn't matter really at all.  Aiming and missing was frustrating since when I'm playing an FPS, I don't expect to keep missing when it looks like I'm hitting over and over again.  I know it was still an RPG, but the "feeling" wasn't there.   I wasn't seeing 100s of people on the map at the same time.  In UT I could play 40 vs 40 and really see everyone without much lag at all.  WHen lots of people were near eachother in PS, there was LOADS of lag and rubber banding.  Not fun.

I understand it probably got better over the years, but I didn't care.  All that mattered was that 1st month and it failed to devliver anything I wasn't already getting from UT.  Thats the reason PS failed.  The experience was too lackluster to bother investing the time.  I'm not investing anything in an FPS.  I log in.  I play.  I have fun.  I log out.  PS just didn't fit anywhere.  It wasn't a good RPG and it wasn't a good FPS.  It was just a bad mixture wrapped up in a pretty boring wrapper.  SOE didn't support it because the players didn't see anything worth supporting.  

 

After reading this ones post I can say you never played PS or just sampled it for an hour on a friends computer.   PS didn't have stats to determine hit and miss at all.  PS was in fact and FPS and it was one of the best "FPS's" I ever played and I played that game religiously for 3.5+ years.   You say you never saw any more than 100 on a map at the same time, then you never played PS.  PS was one of the only MMO's and still one of the only MMO's where you can have upwards of 300+ people in combat against one another at the same time.   I remember in the first year of PS we had battles with 600+ players...yes back then we had battles that large.  It was just awesome...and no game to date that I have played ever had me wanting to play it every waking moment that PS did.  No real strategy to play...lol...clearly you did not PS.  

God I wish I had the money to start up my own game company.  I would make a game similar to PS - only better - have updates on a regular bases - and I would advertise the hell out of the game - and I wouldn't abandon my player base.