Greetings ,

I am concepts 4 gamers. Myself and a few other individuals are currently in the preliminary stages of designing a new type of mmorpg. Our goal aside from delivering a product suitable for EVERYONE to play, is to revert the ideal standard of what a mmorpg is supposed to be. During the course of this thread i will break down some of the basic information of what you can expect from this product. But before i go on, lets go over some basic information of who we are, and what we already know about the current mmo market.

About Us...

Currently we are all avid players of mmorpgs as well as a variety of other types of games. Though none of us are actual programmers, we are all very good at what we do. Playing the games. A few of us have started basic programming & are getting larger programmers involved & we're working on assembling some form of test dummy [client] to experiment a few ideas with. This product, unlike many others is being designed from the ground up by actual gamers. We know what you want, because it was the same things we wanted. We are currently centralized in nortern california, and are looking to secure a work shop of some time somewhere in the bay area.

The Product...

Even though i am making it sound like we are very early in development [which we are] we actually have over several years of recorded information. game play, interface, races, classes, beastiary, lore, you name it, we already have it. the entire game. we basically have it all down, and ready to start some form of production, but before i go on about that, lets go over what we already know about our current mmo market.

Evolution of the Current MMO...

I believe i can safely say that everyone who logs into this website has basically been through the dozens of mmo's that has hit the market over the past 10 years. Ultima Online, Ever Quest, Asherons Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Shadow Bane, Star Wars Galaxies, Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Age of Conan, Warhammer, and World of Warcraft. [Im sure i missed a few] If you go and look back, each of these have something ENTIRELY unique from the other, but fail to deliver in the other areas where one is shining. causing some gamers to play multiple mmos or find it difficult finding a good game to settle down and play.

Ultima Online, Origin Systems [ OSI, September 1997 ] 

The game that started it all & to this date the ONLY marketed product that delivered 100% of what they promised on paper. be what ever you want, where ever you want, when ever you want. You were able to experience what it was like living like a blacksmith. spending countless hours crafting pieces of your trade. Hiring miners to do the dirty work for you, or hiring a group of fighters to defend your miners as they work. Sounds complicated and time consuming, but with a incredibly easy skill tree/point system, one can become adept in as little as a week in certain skills. But thats what led to its initial falloff. The simplicity of their interface allowed people to create very easy hybrid charecters,  jacks of all trades,  self powered fighting machines. These newly discovered templates basically eliminated exploration parties due to the fact that these jack of all trade charecters or "Tank Mages" can pretty much solo everything in game. Turning off alot of the players expecting that more renaissance type feel of gathering a party to slay the dragon type thing. The Tank Mage also introduced a whole new assortment of problems like the hybrid pks. before these guys came along it was basically people runnin around with bows and crossbows of ghouls touch [Paralysis bonus] and kiting everyone. The whole pk era which peaked in about 98 to  late 99 caused alot of the initial subscribers to cancel because of the frustration of loosing all of their hard earned items when they were ambushed by the hordes of pks runnin around. Origin attempted to control the pk epidemic & win back some of their player base with their 2000 expansion "Renaissance" by altering the way the Magery skill was used. While it succeeded with exterminating alot of their pk vermin, as well as restoring some of their player base,  they also lost a few more due to the heavy changes of the combat system. From here, as many would say, is where ultima went downhill & led to its first major competitor, Ever Quest.

Ever Quest, Sony Online Entertainment [ SOE, March 1999 ]

The next big online RPG. Where ultima failed, EverQuest tried to succeed. 1999 marks the first online RPG to use 3D models. Offering more life like realism vs its other competitor. EverQuest or EQ also promises a much more stable & Understandable enviornment. With controlled pvp & a easy to follow class/levelign system, it was easy for people to jump in and create a charecter with little to no problems understanding what to do. They basically used the XP/Level system as structure to help you understand that when you login, your basic goal should be to get xp [experience points] to level up. Leveling up enables you to use better gear, and learn/unlock more skills. Because your charecter was restricted to certain actions, it was important to now find other exploration parties to make that whole leveling process that much easier. While some found this more conventional & understanding, others found it as a form of control. as mmos should allow you to be free to do what you please.

Dark Age of Camelot, Mythic Entertainment [ October 1999 ]  Asherons Call, Microsoft [ November 1999 ]

Two very interesting titles. Each of them using very interesting and unique systems. While still being level based, Dark Age of Camelot used a dual template type design which required you to distribute skill points earned upon leveling up into skill trees you wanted to specialize in. Asherons call stayed conventional but used a magic formulae system. which basically had the player trying to discover his spell through trial and error which was fun and mysterious to some, and painful to others. 3rd party programs fixed that problem later. Asherons call did however bring back the pk. what made AC so popular was the fact if you killed another player, he had a chance of dropping items and you basically got a few of his belongings. DaoC however turned away from the pk thing, and instead introduced RvR or what is known as realm vs realm. Seeing that raid parties was so popular in ever quest, they also realized that pvp was a important instrument to the growing popularity of combat demanded by many players. & found a way to combine the 2. unite the masses for a event of killing and personal glory. Players in the hundreds would invade other Realms [Factions] Killing enemy players. While AC had the popular pk trend going, DaoC had its popularity with the raid feeling form of pvp.

Shadow Bane, Wolf Pack Studios [ UBI Soft March 2003 ]

A very high profile RPG. Shadow Bane tried taking itself into the lead with alot of features. one noticeable feature was morphing terrain. interactive enviornments that change based on the actions that surround it thus effecting it. PvP was also one of Shadow Banes largest selling points. Shadow Bane revolved around a very large and intricate pvp system. With player faction cities and the ability to seige, it gave shadow bane a interesting feel. But with a hard & confusing interface system and a unforgiving pvp system,  it turned alot of people off.

Star Wars Galaxies, Sony Online Entertainment [ SOE June 2003 ]

One of my personal favorites. Star Wars Galaxies attracts hundreds of thousands of players because of the license. The ability to play as a jedi or bounty hunter is very appealing to many. Also because star wars is skill point based and not level based attracts many because they dont have to invest alot of time to develop their charecters. While some classes felt true to the series, others made it feel more like rpg and not star wars earning it the nick name Ever Quest in space. Classes like the commando and exotic creature handler confuse certain players who were expecting to have familiar classes like jedi available immediately at launch. SWG attracts hordes of players using its very beautiful landscapes & lush designs. a very easy user interface, and open charecter possibilities make it extremely popular very fast. But due to the unbalance of certain charecter classes, SOE continually patchs the game and eventually leads to the removal of certain charecter classes. This eventually led to the loss of more then half of their subscriber user base.

Lineage 2 NC Soft [ April 2004 ]

While certain online entitys gave it poor ratings, Lineage 2 found no problem filing subscriptions up to nearly 700,000 in the us alone. a graphical monster at its time. Lineage 2 offered very colorful worlds with alot of vivid detail. everything from the terrain, world, enviornments, down to your weapons and armor had a extreme level of detail. Lineage took pvp and raid parties to the next level that literally required hundreds of players to take down certain raid bosses. The same amount was also required to storm and obtain castles as personal guild halls. Lineage also returns the pk and uses stat loss and possible item drop to threaten and control pk activity. Lineage also at this time, is the first to introduce a extremely high and difficult level grind. The cap although level 75 compared to somes level 80 or 150, was extremely difficult to hit. some complained about only getting 1 level per 3 days after level 70 while others complained it took them a month for per level. Item drops and high grade items were also extremely difficult because of their extreme rarity in drops, complexity in crafting, and low gold [ adena ] drops.

World of Warcraft, Blizzard [ November 2004 ]

Currently the king of mmorpgs with 11 million + subscribers. colorful, cartoony graphics combined with a very polished user interface introduces a very easy to learn mmorpg. tons of quests & in-game content, it is easy for one to become constantly busy. Alot of the higher level content controlled by raid bosses, WOW is another title that encourages large amounts of people to huddle together and form raid parties to successfully scavenge high level items or components. Another level based/Class game it is very easy to stay on track and understand how to coordinate your time because of the structure put in front of you. You get on, grind, level up, upgrade equipment, and do it all over again. As popular as the game is, there are still many who dislike the game. Though the game has a arena, and realm vs realm type pvp, the lack of pvp incentives often get criticized by those who are looking at games like eve online, darkfall, and mortal online which emphasis more on open pvp regardless of race or faction, and offer alot of pvp incentives like open looting, stealing & a more aggressive type atmosphere.

Other games i mentioned little of or none there of such as darkfall, eve online, warhammer, mortal online were not mentioned either because of their small player database, lack of influence on the market, or have not been released yet.

Sorry for the long run down. but at least with this brief review, it will help some understand what we're trying to do and re-introduce back onto the market with some of our features.

Project...

Currently our project does not have a name, we still have people looking into legal issues and a name will come up for it later. The setting will be renaissance, fantasy knights, mages etc etc with alot of interesting touches.

Features...

Some of the things we have thought of are very different then your traditional mmorpg. Here is a small list of things you can expect

Weather System - In game weather will dramatically effect your charecters over all performance, visibility, mobility & over all well being. Example given, rain, fog & snow will cause a fog of war shroud limiting your over all visibility while other effects include your charecter becoming ill or sick and a change in overall performance some good, some bad.

Real Time Eco-Systems - In game you will find many varieties of creatures. some of which may also show pack instincts and venture out further to find food when food becomes scarce. What this means is, if the food chain is being effected in a particular area, you may find some creatures wandering closer to human habitats or other habitats in search of food.

3 Factions / 15 Playable Races - We are introducing 5 playable races per faction from the start. Humans, Beasts, & The Undead. Some of you are saying you have probably seen these races before, but we will be the first to let you play them for the first time in their entirety with skills and abilties unique to this world. Example like the Werewolf race you will have superhuman abilities like superhuman agility, night vision, & the ability to call other beasts to your aid. The Undead will have a Wraith that will have the ability to possess targets and cause internal damage or cause them to attack friendly targets. Wraiths also have the ability to sap through walls in ghost form.

Pet System / Legendary Pets - We have a very very rewarding and genius new system for pets. We understand that pet classes are generally over powered, but in a way, they should be. In order to counter this, we are making Pet handlers EXTREMELY difficult to maintain. Pets will be hard to obtain, and even harder to train. For example feeding your pet dragon 1 piece of chicken is not going to keep him satisfied for a week. The Pet handler will have to feed large entities like that several times a day, while some only require a few times a week. Pets will have skills that need to be practiced to be mastered over time. they will not be instantly available. We are also limiting the amount of pets a pet handler can have. after all if you have a dragon, where are you going to find the time to take care of others? We are making high rewards for the pet handler class, but it will come with a great responsibility.

Combo System - People get confused when we talk about this. But we are allowing certain commands to be combined with another player/class transforming those multiple actions into one new command. example given, our soldier class for the humans will have a ability to hide behind their shield, thus giving them a enhanced defense bonus. if that soldier was to link and combine that skill with another nearby soldier, they will lock shields and create a defense skirmish line and link to any nearby soldier or individual with the same skill. mixing and matching different combination of skills will yield different results.

Real Time Enviornments - We are introducing a time system that will effect everything in game. 12 hours real time, is 24 hours game time. different times of the day will effect certain areas, eco systems, and races. for example, Evening hours will benefit the undead giving them temporary random bonuses.

Good/Evil Karma Incentive - We will actually be encouraging players to actually pk other individuals. By doing it enough you may get the attention of a higher power and grant you special abilities. The same goes for players who choose to hunt evil players. Be warned, as unexpected random dangers may fall upon you for participating in either activity. 

Hirelings - To help those accomplish simple every day tasks, you will be given the opportunity to hire temporary npcs. Use them to help you explore, gather materials, or escort merchandise from place to place. This function is for the human faction only.

Hybrid Level/Skill Point System - For the first time, we are combining both interfaces together. Most skill tree games encourage you to learn as many skills possible. Though we encourage this as well, there are many benefits to sticking to a single profession. your basic skills of your charecter will utilize skill points which are earned through natural use of a item, weapon, or skill. While elite professions will require a certain set of skills learned, then extended amounts of time on the field gaining experience points to level up.

Dungeons - We found it odd that most rpgs now & days dont use dungeons anymore as a exploring tool. Most dungeons are put there just to be there as a next stage to level up. In our worlds, there will be dozens of caves, dungeons, towers, abandoned castles, villages and many other places for you to freely explore. May fortune favor the foolish...

PvP / PvE Mechanics - Something we have been examining for years & wondering how it could get better. Our initial goal is to make pvp/pve feel more like a tactical action game. Actions will be very quick but you must think them through. For example, you see a goblin trapper and foolishly rush in to attack him, and he ensnares you with a trap. you will have to manually and quickly free yourself of this trap in order to defend yourself again. Weapons will have different effects. Crushing weapons like war hammers & maces will bash your target, upon blocked will cause your target to stamper and lose footing. Swords slashed will cause cuts and stabbing will cause deep bleeding.

Crafting - Another fascet of the game we thought could use a nice touch up. Crafters like smiths with certain skills and or forgeable crystals can infuse random or certain abilities onto their craftables. Crafters may also rent shop spaces within city or village walls to sell their wares if they do not own a "Home" to do so.

There are many things we will continually add, but are looking for feedback or any advice that can help on the production of this project.

With the recend slew of failures I think maybe they should start with something that will last long enough to be developed into what would be considered an industry leading MMORPG.

Other than that, I am still reading, sounds interesting.  I will follow this for sure.

One more thing.  I have very little game design experience but I do know that this isn't something that can just be completed as a hobby or on a part-time baseis.  This will have to become your life for 4+ years during development or else it will never compete in the MMORPG meatgrinder market.

We will post more information in the next couple of days, allowing more readers to read some of the previously posted information.

Information to come up will go more in depth on charecter races, classes, travel land, air & sea. eating, maintenance, the combo system, pets, Mages , death, creature behavior, and housing.

Yes alot of us are devoting alot of time into this right now. We are getting other smaller programmers from other projects into this. Right now we are trying to get the information out there to the general public and taking any feedback we can get in the very early stages. We have all made the commitment to draw all resources into this when we have picked up a good movement

Many of the aspects you have presented here share similarities with those that I have designed for my own project under the pseudonym “Project Vex.” The dynamic weather, ecosystem, and environments are a good example. There is a lot of room for innovation in these areas, and the technology will definitely be able to support it. The combat, consequences for actions, and PvP-PvE mechanics also follow a similar vein as Project Vex.
The last few sentences of the crafting segment listed, and the hirelings portion, have a familiar tune as well.

I am generally quite cagey about the specifics of Project Vex, but seeing these similarities in design sparks an interest in sharing my thoughts and work (for the greater good of the MMORPG community, as it needs some light shining through this dark period).

Please feel free to PM me!
(I'd still rather share the majority of it in a more private setting).

My input is based on similar design so let me say this first. I have been working on a game design and implementation for 9 years. I have had a concept for 25 years as to where I want it to go. I am only going to comment on the areas I see that you need to rethink a bit.

You may have a game but do you have a story? Not just lore but a story that will drive the player forward toward an end goal? A game without a story is just another game and a game with just lore is not a story driven game. The entire thing needs a overall story as to what the world is about.

A weather system is one thing but you are in overkill here even for a virtual reality having a player effected by weather is going to cause many to not want to play. Complexity is OK but these kind of things are going to be a negative.

Your stuck on the same broken record for player classes. It is working? Yes. To be original you need to think outside the box and come up with something else like no classes and off races. Be what you want to be kind of system.

The real time cycle is way to slow. Players that only log in at certain times will never get to see the other cycle. A game world time needs to be shortened to a off hours interval . Common times are 72 and 84 minutes which allows the day night cycle to flip so over a short period of time. This allows the players that play certain times to see the other cycle. This will hamper you in the long run.

Although you may think the good/evil karma incentive will work, let me assure you your game will have those that just don't give a shit about what the incentive is. They will still grief players and make life difficult. You need a rule system that will deter player killers and yet not effect the normal game play. Get to designing a real murder system now before you start developing PvP.

I was just writing this post and it fits here so that post is not happening.

What often times happens is someone gets an idea, buys a game engine and starts writing their game idea. They get feedback late in maybe open beta and start scrambling to plug the concept into the game. They don't sort through the design until after it is released and then make adjustments. Many times you see this in FFA MMO games. Where the developers are trying to deter the gankers from driving off the rest of the player base by adding regulations of murder systems and so on. The systems they implement don't work but just add problems to the rest of the player base. AoC is an example of this. I expect Darkfall to have to implement some system too.

Hirelings is a good idea but a game based on need for others is not in my opinion well designed. Make the world transversal solo or grouped.

You want to be unique and develop a unique new type of MMO? You need to think outside the box and use some originality. Develop your game idea from your own mind and throw away all the tried and used formulas.

Your ideas sound interesting!

I havea  few questions ..

1. will you be able to access all game content with one character? or will you have to create multiple characters in order to do so?

2. will all players be able to communicate within the game regardless of guild/ class?

3. Will players be able to trade freely on the game ? what system will you be using for your in game economy?

4. On your crafting system will players be able to do this without need of an npc, and what percentage of the items in the game will be craftable? In order for everyone to be able to play it and enjoy it they usually like to be able to craft without the need to do combat if they  like, and other players like to be able to craft in the morning , kill in the afternoon if they feel like it depending on their mood. So will there be a variety of activities for different types of players and for different types of moods?

5. Will most items in game be able to be "modded" by players? like socketable items, updgrades, ect to customize them to suit their needs?

6. will players appearance have anything to do with their abilities? When players abilities are linked to their appearance it makes it incredibly predictable as to what they are capable of . Like this : see elf . know elfs weaknesses and strengths . counter elf .. vs  in games where the appearance has nothing to do with abilities, you never know what your opponent is going to do ahead of time bringing a level of unpredictability to combat that is lost in many games today.

Greeting's

We have been busy runnin around collecting multiple workstations donated by sponsors of interest. we are thankful right now that some people are taking interest in this project & sorry to those who responded to this thread and the many emails we have  recieved about their interest or opinions on this project. i will answer as many questions possible.

demc:

the time cycle is not long. if u have played as many mmo's as i have [ultima for example] you will remember hundreds of people waiting around for 8+ hours simply waiting for a house or the more memorable towers/keeps and rarer castle plops to fall due to decay. i think the 4 hour cycle per time of day is more then enough. the time will not affect "charecters" much but simply give them bonuses during those times of the day. we were originally thinking of having the day time and early stages of the afternoon cycle be lethal to the undead race but we thought the market might not yet be ready for this kind of game mechanic. so instead we opted for just stat & skill bonuses throughout portions of the games time cycle. the ONLY very noticeable effect time will have which we have not yet talked to the public about is the werewolf class. since our game will be the first game to truely take advantage of random weather effects, the werewolf will not always transform into his werewolf form. since fullmoons will be random, in the evening cycle of the game, the human form will have enhanced skills, stats & abilities. in the event of a fullmoon, he/she will then be able to transform into their "raged" counterpart. The werewolf in game as so many asked, yes will be the only charecter class/race in game with 2 different skill trees & abilities. his human counter part, and the werewolf.  About your opinion on the pvp incentive. if you have done as much pvp as i have in any open pvp market, you will know easily see where the incentive fits in =] sooner or later you attract the wrong kind of attention to yourself and those like you. There is a market there for everyone. Originality comes with its price however. look the movies, there are only so few ideas you can use before things get "recycled" What we are doing is taking the more noteable features that mmos failed to take advantage of, and recycle them back to its fully renditioned purpose. We think right the market is flooded with games that give you a false sense of purpose by giving you a structure with a absolute 0% fail rate. which is good and bad. good in the aspect that its easy [all you need is time and the #'s to grind and raid yawn...new armor...new weapon which i will have..ummm....forever?] and bad in the sense that its just that easy...We are trying to re-invent what the "video game" aspect of the mmo is, was and what it should be. which is why we are elevating the level of difficulty for many aspects of the game. as far as story goes, yes we have ALOT. i would like to talk about it momentarily when im done responding to as many opinions and questions that come up. Our story line & how it fits into the actual game...i can guarantee you have never been done before, and i will go on about it in a few minutes.

devil:

all game content will be accessible from launch [whenever that is] and yes accessible from all charecters. Another question asked by someone else is if can players from other factions party with other faction members? the answer is no, our story line will have each faction at war with each other for every day survival..but this doesnt mean you cant make pacts or temporary alliances with beast or undead clans. as far as the language barrier atm is all the same. we are tinkering with the idea of making each faction unique to its own excluding the humanoid types involved in that faction example the werewolf human counterpart of the beasts and the vampire of the undead. To answer another question no we will not be utilizing a in game translator for multiple languages, but in a related area, we will be giving players the ability to customize vocal pitch of their charecter. Since many games today simply give ur charecter "type" a single voice, this is one of the many ideas we had to create a truely unique look, feel and now, a new sound to differentiate yourself from others.

I have gone through a few dozen emails so i will try and answer them by going targetting questions in each individual area:

Crafting: alot of people seem to have alot of questions here. about 100% of the games inventory you can technically craft. we say technically because we believe some of the harder to find magical or runic drops should stay more powerful due to its nature. for example there are magic weapons in game that drop that have a very high damage ratio to lets say dragons. if you were to lose it, you can hire a blacksmith to craft you a sword with "similar" properties. it will give you similar bonuses but not everything that magic sword would have given you. we did this so that it is a bit easier to replace very hard or rare items in game. as far as emdedding some of these traits, it will come at a cost to the blacksmith as things of this nature will be hard to obtain. since harvesting or mining these materials will be in the farthest stretchs of the game or will be hard to harvest components from the beastiary everyone will be farming. As far as how the npcs will fit to the crafting area, you will be able to purchase all basic building components from npcs of their related areas, fabric weavers, forges & places of that nature. As far as what a few people have asked about enchanting items and socketed items, we are allowing players to yes enchant weapons like stated above. for example, if you lost lets say a sword that gave you fire properties and you lost it. you would simply try and farm or find or purchase a item that gives you some kind of elemental property like for a example a fire stone or trinket and have either a npc blacksmith or player blacksmith enchant it for you. npcs will be able to do this at a pretty costly price while player blacksmiths will most likely have a cheaper variant but at a much higher risk factor breaking your stone and possible ruining your weapon. You will be able to enchant your item with 2 bonuses and a 3rd with very very rare enchant items. only elite blacksmiths  [forge masters] will be able to perform the 3rd enchant.

Time Cycles: Alot of people seem confused here. time cycles will not affect what you do. you can do whatever you please at any time of the day. the time cycles simply give you bonuses with random bonuses from the depicted weather. The time cycles will also effect certain mobs from where they are and how much of them spawn. For example for animal handlers, they may only find unicorns roam around more at the early stages of the morning giving them something to plan for. People will also notice at different times of the day, access to certain areas might be easier as certain mobs or npcs might be off hunting other spawned npcs or mobs in a nearby or remote area. this type of interaction will cause a nice mix up of what you can expect to find out there. We thought that alot of conventional games today make it easier on players by just creating a set type of spawn/npcs/mobs in one particular area. in the reality behind it, you should never know what to expect when you are wandering out in the woods...that kinda takes the fun out of it. we liked the idea of random encounters in the woods. one night you might find a deer, the next night you might find a group of bandits hunting down that deer, and then the night after that, you might find a horde of undead zombies feasting on both the bandits and the deer...we feel you shouldnt have to adventure to a dungeon or remote area to find that kind of mysterious encounter. they should be readily available anywhere..including right outside your door.

Trade System: We will be implementing a very standard trade system. some places use auction houses but we believe that eliminates the fun of trying to venture or create "pacts" to cross into other areas outside of their own. We liked the idea like eve online how they used in game diplomacy to allow others to temporarily inhabit someones area & we'd like to integrate that on a much larger scale. since all factions are at war with each other, you or your group/clan would have to have something very valuable to offer for temporary access or assistance in a remote, foreign area.

Factions: The 2nd BIGGEST area of concern all the emails have seem to have targetted. we havent talked about them much until right now. Balance seems to be everyones concern or whats going to stop everyone from over flooding one area over another. One thing we want to address is, even though some races and factions are EXTREMELY powerful like the lich or werewolf, we want people to know that, in like all stories, humans have learned to over come great complexities and obstacles which will be no different here. Yes in this game, werewolves will be 100% like they have been portrayed in stories and on screen movies. Very strong, very athletic and very terrifying. yes they will come with all of their strengths, and yes...will come with their one ultimate weakness. silver. a werewolf getting struck by a silver weapon will cause massive damage to it. Vampires...yes again, playable in their entirety. but very weak to silver, holy magic & weapons and yes even sunlight. we know this is a video game, so the sunlight will not immediately kill you, but being in day light will cause vampires very slow damage and your stats to be a bit weaker. Zombies will be very afraid of fire, while wraiths and ghosts can be animated back to flesh [Bishop, Archbishop spell] making them vulnerable to any type of weapon. While humans will have a very very diverse playbook, we will remind them again why forces of this nature were once to be feared. Fear will be implemented by either skills, spells or by the mere presence of them. we are trying to be the first game that literally scares you by the mere presence of one of these unusual anomalies of nature by presenting the world in a very dark, & scary atmosphere. Yes werewolves will be able to run on all four limbs. they will stand and appear to be 8 feet tall. they will howl and scare the crap out of you. they will be able to see in the dark. certain forms of the undead will stalk and stumble and groan with nightmarish qualities. their eyes will glow in the dark. a reminder to fear what once lurked in the dark.

Races & Classes: This is where alot of the questions of concern have been coming in. & we will reveal to you our ideas. again, there are 3 factions. each faction with 5 playable races. all with unique skills and abilities. Races will also come with 1 unique racial ability.

Humanoids: [To be renamed at a later time] starter professions are pre-designed templates with set skills to make the charecter creation process a bit easier. you can also choose to create your own custom template. Elite classes are master professions which will require a set number of skills mastered to unlock the actual profession.

Humans: humans will start with a very well balanced assortment of stats. at the present time, we do not have a racial ability set for humans.

Start professions: Fighter, Archer, Priest, Mage, Animal Handler, Blacksmith, Minstrel, Thief

Elite professions: Knight, Gladiator, Pikeman, Ranger, Trapper, Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Bishop,  Rogue, Assassin, Beast Master, War Minstrel, Forge Master

Elves: elves will start with a higher concentration of intelligence [ Mana ] which will make beginning mage templates much easier to create. Elves will have the racial skill "Focus" which will enhance their abilities at the expense of additional mana or stamina.

Start professions: Blade, Scout, Divine Acolyte, Caster, Animal Handler, Blacksmith, Bard

Elite professions: Blade Master, Blade Dancer, Tracker, Tempest, Void Caster, Elementalist, Divine Healer, Divine Patriarch, Forge Master, Doomsayer * Valkyrie, Creature Handler

Dwarf: Dwarfs will start with a very high level of strength making them excellent warriors. their racial ability "chance" will increase their luck which will effect how often they will deliver critical hits & their luck with embedding, enchanting, or creating magical items making them EXCELLENT blacksmiths. Dwarfs will also have very good access to iron and steel mines.

Starter professions: Warrior, Rifleman, Blacksmith, Grenadier

Elite professions: Juggernaught, Pikeman, Skirmisher, Sniper, Demolitionist, Combat Engineer, War Smith, Forge Master

Centaur: Centaurs will be the fastest mobile unit of the humanoid faction. their larger and muscular design enable centaurs to wear heavy armor with very little consequences making them very effective for front line combat. There current racial ability will be a stamina type booster which we are still currently researching for fair gameplay mechanics

Starter professions: Warrior, Archer

Elite professions: Strider, Hawkeye, Storm Knight [ heavy calvalry, planning on renaming, tbd ]

Wood Sprite [ Fairy, Pixie, Nymph currently still in development ] will have a very large amount of stamina and mana over health. racial ability will be mitosis which converts health in mana, and from there can cast a spell to convert mana into stamina. this race makes to be excellent mage type or bard type charecters. We are also integrating a system where a similar spell/skill to mitosis will allow 3+ more sprites to converge and transform into a entity of light or darkness pending on their alignment. very early in development stage is this and this race/class.

Starter professions: In development

Elite professions: In development

Available transformations: In development

Beasts: We want to make a note here before we proceed. not all races will have classes. just the humanoid type, where the more beast like creatures will simply learn more skills and will have very enhanced stats. Beasts & Undead will instead have multiple racial abilities. Another noticeable difference is, certain beasts will not utilize a mana bar. instead, they will have a enhanced stamina bar which is where there skills and abilities draw energy from.

Werewolf - The only race in game to have 2 independant skill tree / abilities. one for their human counter part, the other for their wolf formation. racial abilties will be stride which allows the wolf to run on all fours giving them supernatural speed. leap giving them supernatural jumping ability. Nightvision allowing them to see in the dark & stalk making them absolutely silent. Wolfs can simultaneously use all abilities at the same time at the expense of greater stamina. Also note werewolves have a high sensitivity to silver & traps.

Notes: their human form can learn all standard skills of their human counter parts. noticeable differences to pick them out in the general public is, the human werewolf [ to be renamed lycans, lycanites, tbd] will generally appear prettier in nature. examples being their hair and skin will appear shinier and are generally more hairier then the human counterparts. they may also be a bit taller then the average person. The werewolf human form may not always transform into their "raged"  werewolf counter part pending on wether there is a full moon out. when they are not transformed, they will get massive stat bonuses in the evening time cycles. Also note that while in werewolf form, you are in a "raged" status which dramatically increases all stats at the drawback of not allowing you to use inventory items making it near impossible for you to heal yourself. Werewolves, will not be able to wear armor, or use weapons while in wolf form. instead they will have a high damage ratio and a very high tolerance to normal weapons. they are still succeptable to standard magic.

Skills of the Wolf: A few skills & abilities to look forward to for the werewolf are:

Pounce: a binding attack that if successful, will knock down your opponent with you ending on top. you must be in stride formation to perform this basic function, being in stalk mode will increase the range and chances of a successful pounce.

Roar: a ferocious roar that will possible scare all nearby enemy targets lowering their defense and mobility but may cause a increase of their attack power out of fear.

Howl: a eerie howl that will temporarily increase attack power and attack speed to you and all nearby "werewolves"  causing them to howl in return.

Hurl: quite possible the coolest move of their arsenal. using the werewolves supernatural strength, upon success, you can literally pick up and hurl targets smaller or equal of your size. throwing them towards clusters of people or simply to create distance between you and your target.

Goblins: small in size, but deadly in numbers. a group of goblins can get skill bonuses increasing their efficiency of traps & snares. estimated to be the most popular race in game.

We are currently experimenting with abilities and instead might be converting them to individual skills which can only be used on goblin hunting parties but...heres a few to expect

Starter professions: Scavenger, Arsenist, Creeper

Elite professions: Raider, Thrasher, Hunter, Stalker

Skills & Abilities: Right now our current idea is that along with normal skills, there will be group skills that will be unlocked pending on the class mixup of the goblins. for example if there is 3 thrashers in a party, the party leader will inherit the "harass" skill which upon success will cause all thrashers in group to perform a taunting attack delaying the targets attack. adding 1 hunter to this party will grant the hunter the snare skill which immobilzes the targets movement speed by 15% adding a 2nd hunter and the snare will increase to 30% and a 3rd hunter will bring the snare up to 50% or can create a larger snare capable of capturing multiple targets completely hindering movement. 5 or more stalkers will get the ambush ability which will allow them to perform a stealth ambush move inflicting massive damage to a single target in a very short amount of time. mixing and matching will unlock different abilities

Drawbacks of the goblin is they will generally have very low defense and health, making them rely on their traps and evasions.

Other races we'll get into later are the orc, darkelf, and kobold [which might be replaced with a reptilian type race]

Undead - will actually require many pages to fill up due to the complexity of this faction, but i will elaborate quickly on a few things. Undead for one will have unlimited stamina due to the fact they dont get tired..because their dead. Vampires will have blood magic which requires no mana but will be based on how much health or blood left in their body. example given, if you have 250 health/blood points left, you can use any skill requiring 250 points and under. as long as you dont get damaged, you can continually use the skill over and over [ until cool down resets ] . vampires will be the most fragile of all undead

Vampires will have a few special abilities, transformation which is broken down to 3 forms, the humanoid, the bat, and the myst. he will use the transformations as alternative forms of travel. the bat will be the fastest way of travel but will be extremely vulnerable. the myst will be the slowest but will also have a near invulnerable status unless hit with fire or some form of holy magic. the myst can also fall victim to the animate flesh spell from the bishop or divine patriarch which will cause the myst to revert back to the vampire human form.

Wraiths will be able to sap through walls and possess their targets causing the target to be rendered helpless until the effect wears off or is excorcised by a bishop. the possession can also cause the target to attack nearby friendly targets.

I'll continue this in a sec

You have some really great stuff there, I like the ideas on the crafting .

Not exactly sure I understand why not everyone would be able to communicate in game though.  I play games with many friends, when I spread the word around I have people from other games come to those games, and though we may like different class/ groups ect we still like being able to  communicate in game as well. Sure, we still talk on headset and such outside of the game while playing via Vent/ TS and messenger, but that can be distracting from gameplay at time especially if you are talking to someone else at the time via headset. Also would that not limit trade between guilds? Like for example If you like to fight a guild , but also like to trade with that guild how does that work? I see limiting communications as a damper on game friendships and guild relations.

Sure many gamers enjoy the whole storyline/plot serious role play thing, but many more players enjoy being able to communicate with their friends. Like say for example if we happen to go onto different sides and want to fight each other.. that doesn;t mean we don't want to communicate as well, or have friendly relations with those that we are at war with.. considering it is just a game.

Say if I brought my old guild of 600 members to this game .. would we be put on one side or the other due to race / class? Or would be able to determine what we do who we can talk to ?  For those gamers that hang out with the people they play with outside of the games, the ingame chat limits mean nothing because they are all communicating via headset anyhow, as most hardcore pvpers already do. All they would really be in actual is a pain to have to open a messenger in order to communicate with those other players that the game will not alllow you to. Would guild leaders be able to communicate with anyone from any other class/ race guild in order to set up events? What kind of in game guild functions would there be?

Now from what I see of the pvp aspects due to race/ class ect,  would be the same thing as to see goblin , know what goblin is capable of  counter goblin rather than having the primary focus on real player skill?

This concept sounds sweet, good luck with this and cant wait to see more.  I was just thinking of centaurs as a playable race, loved it in SB.

Sounds good, but like many il have to see something first before i believe it ;) 

Anyway, il give you a tip - im a programmer and one thing i found helps with a process like this (verry big project) is to get a verry skilled programmer - preferably a architect intrested to help you when flesh out the main features of your game. 

Its easy to think up a milion features and although i agree nearly everything is possible, there are limitations ... most games that in the end dont deliver what they promise had the problem that they couldnt get the ideas implemented into the game in the time needed or it was to difficult. So although i like your ideas, make sure you know how to actually implement them.. mmo's have pc / latency and distribution of information issues on a scale that warrants including highly skilled programmers into the design process from the getgo.. not when your finally finished to make something...

Sorry if that sounded somewhat biting :) however like most programmers if had the joy of explaining to designers that the things the want will take more time then they thought - or that somethings are mutually exlusive..  rule of thumb? "Nothing is as easy as you want it to be"

*Edit* omg.. just noticed after years of trolling this forum (wihtout a account) somebody actually got me to post something!!!!! wonder how that happened....

sorry had to step up to interview a artist.

Devil:

the 600 of you will get to chose your side/faction. it is not randomly selected. i was trying to explain that we arent worried about one side being flooded because we know there is a equal amount of people who would love to play either side. as far as the language barrier goes, we are considering maybe a skill you train that lets you speak and understand foreign languages similar to what star wars galaxies did. we're still tinkering with that or just letting the game use 1 standard language. we kinda liked that feeling of mysteriousness when you come across another faction member in a remote area and arent quite exactly what his/her intentions are. you kinda have to go old school and monitor their gestures and actions but again, something we're still looking into.

PvP will have a extremely diverse field. remember that, in these type of worlds, you will RARELY get to participate in a actual 1 vs 1. due to the large and harsh enviornments most people will travel in packs. because it will revolve around team type combat, the majority of the immediate skill will come in the form of knowledge and being able to immediately idenfity the strengths of weaknesses and possible tactics that group is gonna use and quickly use your strenghts around their weakness. you used goblins so i will use goblins. lets say you are with a group of hunters and im in a group of stalkers. your immediate gang bonus is the enhancement to snare and mine is the stealth attack. if i knew you were coming, or saw you coming, i would setup shop somewhere down the road, and try and ambush one of your trappers and kill him as fast as possible. run away and try it again. where your setup is probably gonna be to setup in a area which is going to give us the least amount of cover making it harder for us to stealth or rely on individual snares per target and hope to snare at least 1 of us to prevent us from using ambush tactics. when you consider the fact by mixing up your group will grant you different abilities, the number of tactics available to you increases making those type of encounters very difficult. Now...when you look into the 1vs1..it is COMPLETELY different. again using goblins, a raider whos specialty is using explosive like molotovs vs a stalker whos specialty is ambush and stealth...a veeeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting fight. knowledge will be extremely key and a extraordinary amount of patience. the stalker knows about the raiders ability to use ranged explosives, so he sits and waits and attempts to move around his target by moving with camoflauge around the bushes. the raider will know this and rely on one of their racial enhanced hearing ability and will be able to get a better fix on the stalkers position by trying to key in on the sounds the stalker is unknowingly making. if the raider can not find the stalker, he can simply burn him out. or strategically make a escape by blinding the stalker with the smoke set off by the fire. the stalker can use the enviornment as a distraction by throwing objects to make distant sounds confusing his target from knowing his true location. Ah..to help you visualize this better, i will mention something i believe we forgot to mention. there will be no targetting reticle, and there will not be a indicator box showing you that there is a target unless you physically click on the target to bring up any kind of information you need. eye sight and attention to detail will be very important on spotting & identifying your target.

What bothers us is when we see a rpg or worse yet a fps with a player bunny hopping around his opponent trying to shoot or slash...we understand its a video game...but i dont think in the navy seal hand book it instructs you to jump around your target in the attempt to knife him. We didnt want to keep it twitch like some of the newer mmos...it just doesnt fit. i dont think your gonna step outside and strafing side to side against each other then constantly jumping around in heavy armor to attempt some kind of leaping strike...leave the twitch gameplay to the shooters.

There is so much i want to post..but i cant keep my eyes open...

carrarn:

yes we know...we have been talking to many programmers and have told us we are on a suicide mission, as the things we want to implement though, are not impossible, but rather extremely difficult to achieve.

some people dont believe some of our ideas will not work but dont know that some of them have already been tried on different games and have gotten either a hit or a miss. some people dont know that there are some action games out there that utilize a actual weather system. a mmo i used to play actually did have a prototype eco system but they stopped supporting it due to the large amounts of updating and programming.

none of us are programmers, but a few of us are learning until we can get our hands on a very good programmer. we have a few friends coming out of cal poly looking into some stuff for us. its very difficult. we have some concept arts and soon will have actual rendering thanks to some nice software packages donated by a few media firms out here.

and yes the latency issue is my greatest concern of all concerns. i know that for programmers they work vigorously around coding to be as efficient as possible. the way im looking at it is, if ccp could do it with no real programming experience when they started, we should be able to do it as well with alot of hardwork. but...id rather find a really good programmer and have him/her jump onboard the project =p

Upcoming things i will talk about on my next posts:

Animal handlers & pets, skill points & experience points, the skill tree and elite profession system, economy, methods of travel, magery, & game play mechanics.

I know you didn't ask for it, but I'm going to make a couple of points relating to the development of the game since you actually seem to be starting development. I'm critical here, but my aim is to help you.

1) It's too big

The first thing that worries me is the scale of it, example:

"3 Factions / 15 Playable Races"

Whoah! And some of those races have classes and most have unique skills and appearance!

"all game content will be accessible from launch [whenever that is] and yes accessible from all charecters"

Creating masses of content and features has been a problem for many recent MMO releases [Age of Conan, Vanguard]. Would you rather release your game two years later with unfinished content and bugs, or two years earlier and later add content patches to an already sucessful MMO? Keep it simple stupid, make it smaller, do it well.

2) Programming should be done by professionals

"Currently we are all avid players of mmorpgs as well as a variety of other types of games. Though none of us are actual programmers, we are all very good at what we do. Playing the games. A few of us have started basic programming & are getting larger programmers involved & we're working on assembling some form of test dummy [client] to experiment a few ideas with."

Only programming professionals should touch the code. That means people who have proven skills. People with a basic understanding only slow down development and add bugs.

3) Concept details overlooked?

 I don't think it's a new type of mmo, overall it still seems fairly traditional and 'inside the box', but that's not necessarily a bad thing. From the concept I'm not sure what the main focus of the game is. Is it PVP focused, PVE focused, a sandbox or exploration game? Is it level based? Wouldn't werewolves be much better at PVE than any other class since I can't imagine many creatures carry silver. Overall I think there's a lot of small details you are overlooking that would have a big effect.

4) No design document

to begin development you at least need a design document (which I don't believe you have yet). People need clearly defined tasks to be able to do them well. Changing requirements adds delays and increases the complexity of code.

I agree with suttonian, if you dont have a good programmer, wait with any serious coding of the client/server till you get him aboard.

The idea is indeed not that original, you are just trying to add things you find lacking in the mmo's either from other mmo's or other types of games together. This i agree isnt a bad thing, but if its like that, perhaps you should try to determine the points where you are using idea's from other games and look exactly what you like about them, dislike and learn from there mistakes. In my country we have a saying... "Beter goed gejat, dan slecht gedaan" witch sorta means that its better to take a existing idea and work it out better then to think up something new and work it out badly. (i presume there is something similar in other languages)

I dont agree with one thing, if you have a good programmer overseeing everything, and you use a versioncontroll system everybody can contribute to the code in some way aslong as you put down rules that are followed.

satt / carr:

yes we totally agree. we are only learning how to program so we can better understand what our programmers are doing, we are simply generating the ideas so our programmers have a idea on what we are trying to do, they then, take whats on paper and create it into a digital world. its hard to implement some form of code rule when you dont really understand it, i wish i knew how to program like some of these guys out there but i think i will leave it up to the few or many we hope to find and trust.

atm i think we have to think inside and outside of the box. we cant think to much outside of the box...we dont think the market is ready for that. granted we did use ideas that have not been used much and are returning some things that have been left out or generally abused in older mmos. believe me...we have EXTREMELY outlandish ideas like aerial combat & physics systems, explosive tip casing arrows, under water enviornments, real time health issues & sicknesses, the list was ridiculous, but as many hard gamers that i have come across, including myself, we thought many of the features we have thought of, most of which was good, might not yet be right for todays market. dont get me wrong though...there are many mechanics we have not yet talked about that are vastly different from what is seen today that we think even the most basic of gamers can enjoy and understand.

i need coffee..today i sort out some laters and ill be here again to post and discuss more information. keep the opinions coming, every little bit helps

interesting read... just glanced the gist of it so far (the original post and the thread overall... I'm at GDC so not having a lot of time ot read this, at least not until tonight...)

A few question (if you have mentioned and I've not read it yet, forgive me...

How the crafting system?  That is, how is it set up to function?  How will the player economy play out?

What kind of death penalty are you looking at?  what direction are you taking for the death penalty?

Just a few that came up in my thought after skimming through...  will read more and reply more later tonight...

Forcan:

first in response to the easier question:

Death - this area is generally a sensitive area for most people but i think we have a very very fair system in place. there is no real death penalty other then anything on your corpse left behind can be taken by either a npc or mob or a near by player who finds your corpse. we believe because of this, there shouldnt be any really harsh penalty like stat loss or xp or skill point loss. we believe if you spent the time to develop your charecter, there shouldnt be a reason why you lose that. however..for murderous players, they will recieve a small stat loss upon death if they have committed to many sins.

people are afraid of losing alot of the gear they have spent time gathering, but with how we are trying to make our crafting system, blacksmiths can re-create items with very similar enchanted qualities to the one you lost which will probably come at a much cheaper price then its magical counterpart cousin. crafters will also be able to craft armor with unique properties with the right materials such as dragon scale and dragon skin which give it unique fire resistance properties.

Crafting / Harvesting / Economy - this area will now talk about how the 3 will effect each other. Crafting will be handled like all of the conventional mmos out today. to craft a item, you will need the blueprint, recipe, or manual to do so, as well as all the required materials to do this. we are keeping the harvesting task to a somewhat easy minimum. nothing extreme like farming 29034792365289035 npcs to simply return with 7/25 pieces of component you need. you will acquire your alloyed components by mining iron, copper, steel and other various metalic alloys. Other components such as natural materials like rope, feathers, string, liquids, fabrics, you will naturally harvest, weave or create. even though we are aiming for a player driven economy, we know by experience that players will try and inflate the market. the npcs will be controlling the base amount of what normal materials, components and standard equipment sells for. for example, blacksmiths who can not afford to rent shops in local cities can sell some of their wares to a local npc merchant. the npc merchants will sell those wares based on the over all balance of materials that are available in the area. so for example, if steel isnt that available in the area atm, certain equipment made of that material might be selling a bit higher then what it should be. players can look at this, and be able to make a fair estimate as to what normal players should be selling it for. either the same, or less then what the npcs are charging. this will keep the players on check, and the crafters on check. so everyone is paying attention to the enviornment around them. again, we are still researching this, as this is the base idea atm.

We know alot of players will become over burdened with alot of junk loot and equipment found on their travels. we will have certain npcs who will not only buy that equipment, but also take trade ins or exchanges for multiple items & possible a fee. so a player can take 5 not so great items and some cash and trade them to a npc for a pretty decent item.

We liked the idea of having merchants having to travel city to city in search of the best price as to what they can advertise their wares. and causes the player base to shop around for the best price. creating interesting negotiations between crafters, merchants, and the over all player base. still alot we are researching but atm, this idea was pretty sound to us.