Wow, another one. Complain, complain, complain, but don't actually do anything about it.

No one forces you to buy anything from any particular company. You don't like the way one business handles their product then buy from someone else. Simple as that.

If companies want to be overprotective of their products to the point that you're afraid of being sued then don't buy their products! I'm going to keep beating this horse, I don't care how long it's been dead.

It is NOT right nor fair for the mob to force companies to sell their products the way the mob wants. As consumers you do have the right to -demand- these kinds of things, but you don't have the right to directly -force- companies to do anything. You can -indirectly- force them by not buying their products, that's how this stuff works.

If companies start doing anything illegal then and only then do we, the consumer, have the right to force any change.

Bottom line: If Blizzard wants to become over-protective of their software and scare away their customers then that's their business. It's a bad idea, but their choice to make. They can answer to their stockholders later.

Blizzard is more than likely trying to get a decision that will allow them to sue all of the private servers running around without extended court battles.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Wow, another one. Complain, complain, complain, but don't actually do anything about it.

No one forces you to buy anything from any particular company. You don't like the way one business handles their product then buy from someone else. Simple as that.

Blah, blah, blah. You already barfed this canard up. Doesn't work with pseudo-monopolies like Microsoft. And, AGAIN, regardless, I'd prefer to keep my consumer rights. And if your don't like it, you can kiss my ass. Simple as that.

Originally posted by mutombo55

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/01/judges-ruling-that-wow-bot-violates-dmca-is-troubling.ars

Good job Blizzard? I dont think so.

Look, I understand why Blizz arent happy. But why dont Blizz ask themselves a few questions about WoW.

Why do people buy levelled characters, pay for levelling services or bot software? Because people are lazy, but also because levelling is sh1t boring and time wasting. Also, for anyone with a reasonable income, its actually cheaper to pay for someone else to level your character if your hourly wage is greater than the power levelling service cost. Basically, people time is more valuable then wasting it levelling from 1 to 80.

Why did Blizz make Character transfers between accounts available? That just enables people to glider-level and sell characters with less cost. It allows a current player to buy a new character into his current account. He doesnt need to maintain two subs. And Blizz charge a fee for the transfer. So they further enable character selling, they cash in on it, then they turn around and say oh no, botting is bad. What a load of sh1t.

And what does it matter if people bot. Does it affect your end-game? No. Does it ruin your raiding? No. In fact it probably helps, because your guild can just buy a cheap level 80 healer rather than live through the horror of levelling one. And hell, if you're levelling along, barely staying awake from boredom, and you see an enemy player botting, it atleast gives you an easy "pvp" kill.

Ask yourself this. If levelling from 1 to 80 was actually fun, how many people would buy/use botting software? How many people would buy characters? If MMOs were less timesink, more timefun.

Instead of preventing botting, they should look at removing the reasons why people bot. Or perhaps thats just too hard.

 

You dont like the game so its ok to cheat, break the law or whatever it takes to get around the rules? You are part of the problem and i too like many others are glad bizzard came out on top of this. Maybe someday someone will make a game where you start at level cap with epic gear and 10,000 in gold. Then maybe you would like that game? Most likely not as you would have to click your mouse or push a key.

Originally posted by eight675309

 

Ya, it's really simple not to use microsoft products. Uh-huh. And I should be happy to have my consumer rights stripped away by judges that obviously don't know the internet from an interstate. Please take the last few remainng away, then all I have nothing to be concerned about at all.

Actually, yeah, it is that simple. Things are only as complicated as you make them, buddy. You don't like microsoft? Ok, use a Mac or learn how to use Linux.

If your work makes you use windows then keep that your work software. If you're tired of option A then there -are- other options out there, really just a matter of whether or not you want to explore them.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by eight675309

 

Ya, it's really simple not to use microsoft products. Uh-huh. And I should be happy to have my consumer rights stripped away by judges that obviously don't know the internet from an interstate. Please take the last few remainng away, then all I have nothing to be concerned about at all.

 

Actually, yeah, it is that simple. Things are only as complicated as you make them, buddy. You don't like microsoft? Ok, use a Mac or learn how to use Linux.

If your work makes you use windows then keep that your work software. If you're tired of option A then there -are- other options out there, really just a matter of whether or not you want to explore them.

What is to stop apple/other supposed "options" from acting the exact same way microsoft does? Let me guess, invent my own applications/OS?

Originally posted by eight675309

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Wow, another one. Complain, complain, complain, but don't actually do anything about it.

No one forces you to buy anything from any particular company. You don't like the way one business handles their product then buy from someone else. Simple as that.

 

Blah, blah, blah. You already barfed this canard up. Doesn't work with pseudo-monopolies like Microsoft. And, AGAIN, regardless, I'd prefer to keep my consumer rights. And if your don't like it, you can kiss my ass. Simple as that.

Ok, whatever you say guy.

I know -tons- of people that use Linux instead of Windows with very few problems.

Doing whatever you want to another companies software doesn't fall under the pervue of consumer rights either.

If you're so concerned about companies including parts to their software that will allow them to look at whatever they want on your computer then go support the appeal.

My main problem with complainers like this isn't the complaints themselves. It's the supposed conviction behind them that lacks complete substance. All sound and fury signifying nothing - it's annoying and more than a little pathetic.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by eight675309

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Wow, another one. Complain, complain, complain, but don't actually do anything about it.

No one forces you to buy anything from any particular company. You don't like the way one business handles their product then buy from someone else. Simple as that.

 

Blah, blah, blah. You already barfed this canard up. Doesn't work with pseudo-monopolies like Microsoft. And, AGAIN, regardless, I'd prefer to keep my consumer rights. And if your don't like it, you can kiss my ass. Simple as that.

Ok, whatever you say guy.

 

Only thing you've sauid that's made an iota of sense so far. Save the bandwidth next time.

Bots can only thrive in games with poor design.

If a repetitive action can be scripted in such a way as to give an unfair advantage over human players then there is something fundamentally wrong with the gameplay offered. In light of this perspective I don't see any fault in anyone using a bot program in any game, though I also support any gaming company's right to enforce the rules they set forth including banning the use of bot programs.

Games need to evolve to a point where repetitive and mindless action is not as rewarding as thoughtful and immediate action.

Originally posted by eight675309

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by grimboj

Come on guys botting is the smaller issue here.

The terms of service are just supposed to be a small set of rules that explain how blizzard continues to make so much money. The judge ruling for this reason is just anothr bit of human rights down the pan.

 

Ok I'm tired of seeing posts like this.

Blizzard isn't Big Brother. Blizzard isn't forcing you to download their product, give them money or agree to their EULA. You want to play their game, then you have to agree to their rules. It's that simple. I'm so sick of the mindset that just because something like this might be wrong or a little overboard, gives you the right to break the rules AND then after you get caught complain about it! That's blaming Blizzard for you botting because they made a rule against botting, it's retarded.

If you don't like it then use another product (play a different game). That's how this free market works. As a customer if you don't like the way a company you buy something from does business then it's your right to stop buying from them. It is -NOT- your right to break those rules then complain if you get caught or complain period while you're breaking the rules.

And before anyone even begins:

Blizzard isn't a government, so stop treating this like some righteous cause or something. All this is is a bunch of cheaters whining about not being able to cheat.

They aren't forcing you to play their game.

They aren't forcing you to agree to their EULA. If you don't agree to them then you can't use their product, but that's -your- choice.

Game devs aren't stupid. If their software becomes too invasive and makes people paranoid to the point they stop buying their product, it's bad for business.

If you think Blizzard or anyone else for that matter will use this decision to do something you don't like, then STOP USING THEIR PRODUCT, IT'S THAT SIMPLE! FFS!

 

 

Ya, it's really simple not to use microsoft products. Uh-huh. And I should be happy to have my consumer rights stripped away by judges that obviously don't know the internet from an interstate. Please take the last few remainng away, then all I have nothing to be concerned about at all.

I'm curious what consumer rights have been stripped away?  That is an honest question.

As far as I can tell, a company was creating a program that caused harm to blizzards product.  It broke the eula and directly used blizzards code to do so.  A judge evaluted what was happening and agreed that glider purposefully circumvented blizzards software and security with the intention to exploit their product and in turn that had an effect on their customers. 

Where is the violation of consumer rights here?  I just don't see it.   I understand that a lot of companies use their muscle to bully other companies, but this seems like a very valid concern and a logical outcome. 

Here is one for the ol noddle. First I agree BOTS are WRONG and in every since of the word is CHEATING. OK now that is out of the way....

MODS.....lol a form of BOTS. So the only thing that could backfire on all this is the simple fact that MODS may be considered as a BOT program or at the very least a 3erd party program if this is the case then yes according to Blizz "agreement" that we have to chk in order to even play WoW 3erd party programs are a CLEAR violation. So tell me with that kind of logic everyone who is anyone or prob 95% of all players use a mod of some sorts. So basically all who have gone to curse.com should be SUED for end license agreement???

Am I right??

If so then the IRONIC thing would happen and this whole thing could serously backfire in BLIZZ face but once again I am happy that they are at least trying to get rid of these PATHETIC CHEATERS.

Originally posted by Vetarnias

Botting is wrong, that much I agree with.  But the way he's framing his response, though, makes me wonder whether there will be any impact on copyright law.  Thankfully I don't live in the US, where you have all those limitations on reverse-engineering and such that made even talking about the infamous Sony Rootkit illegal.

Many countries are signatories to international copyright treaties that involve the US, so this is not necessary an "American thing" at the end of the day. =/

I've yet to read what rights we're giving up here.  Please do tell oh wise, uber nerds with tin foil hats a glow..

Originally posted by Katrar

Originally posted by Vetarnias

Botting is wrong, that much I agree with.  But the way he's framing his response, though, makes me wonder whether there will be any impact on copyright law.  Thankfully I don't live in the US, where you have all those limitations on reverse-engineering and such that made even talking about the infamous Sony Rootkit illegal.

 

Many countries are signatories to international copyright treaties that involve the US, so this is not necessary an "American thing" at the end of the day. =/

Well, yes, there are some international copyright treaties like Berne (which for the record the US spurned for 100 years before signing on), but in practical terms, the US has one of the most retarded, industry-dictated copyright laws in the world.  Nothing made after 1923 is in the public domain unless copyright wasn't renewed under the old system, or if it was badly registered, or if it was eventually released.  And when public domain gets too close to Mickey, the US will just pass yet another blanket extension to the current law.  Not to mention all the goodies from the DMCA that prohibit reverse-engineering.  

The only countries which passed such systems were those that were bullied into doing so by the US -- they're trying this with us as we speak, and have failed twice because of mounting protest even though it's by no means a glamourous issue.

US copyright law doesn't apply on Canadian soil.  Canadian copyright law has no such reverse-engineering prohibitions at this time.  So Blizzard can't use that specious argument here.

Originally posted by Mylon

 

---

Originally posted by mutombo55Ask yourself this. If levelling from 1 to 80 was actually fun, how many people would buy/use botting software? How many people would buy characters? If MMOs were less timesink, more timefun.
Instead of preventing botting, they should look at removing the reasons why people bot. Or perhaps thats just too hard.

---

 

Amen. Games need to be about having fun, not grind.

This case, however, looks very bad for future legal implications.

Then the more important question to ask is, If a game isn't fun to you to the point you feel you have to pay to level in it .. then why are playing this said game for entertainment in the first place? It sounds like self torture to me. If I did not enjoy something that I did not have to do, then logically I will not do it for my source of entertainment. That would be irrational.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by Mylon

 

---

Originally posted by mutombo55Ask yourself this. If levelling from 1 to 80 was actually fun, how many people would buy/use botting software? How many people would buy characters? If MMOs were less timesink, more timefun.
Instead of preventing botting, they should look at removing the reasons why people bot. Or perhaps thats just too hard.

---

 

Amen. Games need to be about having fun, not grind.

This case, however, looks very bad for future legal implications.

 

Then the more important question to ask is, If a game isn't fun to you to the point you feel you have to pay to level in it .. then why are playing this said game for entertainment in the first place? It sounds like self torture to me. If I did not enjoy something that I did not have to do, then logically I will not do it for my source of entertainment. That would be irrational.

 

 

Considering every MMO has leveling in it that just isn't as much fun the 2nd or 3rd time around, I guess every MMO that's ever existed needs to be redesigned.  UO, EVE, WOW, all of them.  They all have a leveling grind.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by mutombo55

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/01/judges-ruling-that-wow-bot-violates-dmca-is-troubling.ars

Good job Blizzard? I dont think so.

Look, I understand why Blizz arent happy. But why dont Blizz ask themselves a few questions about WoW.

Why do people buy levelled characters, pay for levelling services or bot software? Because people are lazy, but also because levelling is sh1t boring and time wasting. Also, for anyone with a reasonable income, its actually cheaper to pay for someone else to level your character if your hourly wage is greater than the power levelling service cost. Basically, people time is more valuable then wasting it levelling from 1 to 80.

Why did Blizz make Character transfers between accounts available? That just enables people to glider-level and sell characters with less cost. It allows a current player to buy a new character into his current account. He doesnt need to maintain two subs. And Blizz charge a fee for the transfer. So they further enable character selling, they cash in on it, then they turn around and say oh no, botting is bad. What a load of sh1t.

And what does it matter if people bot. Does it affect your end-game? No. Does it ruin your raiding? No. In fact it probably helps, because your guild can just buy a cheap level 80 healer rather than live through the horror of levelling one. And hell, if you're levelling along, barely staying awake from boredom, and you see an enemy player botting, it atleast gives you an easy "pvp" kill.

Ask yourself this. If levelling from 1 to 80 was actually fun, how many people would buy/use botting software? How many people would buy characters? If MMOs were less timesink, more timefun.

Instead of preventing botting, they should look at removing the reasons why people bot. Or perhaps thats just too hard.

 

You dont like the game so its ok to cheat, break the law or whatever it takes to get around the rules? You are part of the problem and i too like many others are glad bizzard came out on top of this. Maybe someday someone will make a game where you start at level cap with epic gear and 10,000 in gold. Then maybe you would like that game? Most likely not as you would have to click your mouse or push a key.

Dude not being funny but i have a full time job and i like going to the gym and clubbing and like playing mmos. But what i will not do is farm for fu*king hours on end to pay a repair bill for you pulling a mob in naxx. Now i dont give a flying duck if you think iam cheating but wow is a game and i play it how i want to play it. I have enough shit in real life to follow let alone follow a game company law. Yes i buy gold to pay for repair bills and flasks so i dont have to farm for hours. Now if i knew my account would not get banned for botting i would do it to pay for my flasks and repair bill. Nuff said i play my way.

This ruling says that you cannot modify a piece of sofware at all. This ruling would make everything from countertstrike/HL mods to simply doing something I did just a few days ago: I deleted a file on a messenger program I'm using so every time I got a message I wouldnt get the annoying sound effect played in my ear, because the devs were too stupid/lazy to put an option in to turn it off. All of these things would be illegal. Almost everyone who has posted in this thread is guilty of using such programs in the past, I can virtually guarantee it. This is like buying a car and then painting it a color they do not offer at the car company, and then having them confiscate the car because they didn't like the color your painted it. It really is. The abiity to do what you want with what you own is as the most fundamental consumer right there is.

Originally posted by lisarob

Originally posted by grandpagamer

Originally posted by mutombo55

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/01/judges-ruling-that-wow-bot-violates-dmca-is-troubling.ars

Good job Blizzard? I dont think so.

Look, I understand why Blizz arent happy. But why dont Blizz ask themselves a few questions about WoW.

Why do people buy levelled characters, pay for levelling services or bot software? Because people are lazy, but also because levelling is sh1t boring and time wasting. Also, for anyone with a reasonable income, its actually cheaper to pay for someone else to level your character if your hourly wage is greater than the power levelling service cost. Basically, people time is more valuable then wasting it levelling from 1 to 80.

Why did Blizz make Character transfers between accounts available? That just enables people to glider-level and sell characters with less cost. It allows a current player to buy a new character into his current account. He doesnt need to maintain two subs. And Blizz charge a fee for the transfer. So they further enable character selling, they cash in on it, then they turn around and say oh no, botting is bad. What a load of sh1t.

And what does it matter if people bot. Does it affect your end-game? No. Does it ruin your raiding? No. In fact it probably helps, because your guild can just buy a cheap level 80 healer rather than live through the horror of levelling one. And hell, if you're levelling along, barely staying awake from boredom, and you see an enemy player botting, it atleast gives you an easy "pvp" kill.

Ask yourself this. If levelling from 1 to 80 was actually fun, how many people would buy/use botting software? How many people would buy characters? If MMOs were less timesink, more timefun.

Instead of preventing botting, they should look at removing the reasons why people bot. Or perhaps thats just too hard.

 

You dont like the game so its ok to cheat, break the law or whatever it takes to get around the rules? You are part of the problem and i too like many others are glad bizzard came out on top of this. Maybe someday someone will make a game where you start at level cap with epic gear and 10,000 in gold. Then maybe you would like that game? Most likely not as you would have to click your mouse or push a key.

 

Dude not being funny but i have a full time job and i like going to the gym and clubbing and like playing mmos. But what i will not do is farm for fu*king hours on end to pay a repair bill for you pulling a mob in naxx. Now i dont give a flying duck if you think iam cheating but wow is a game and i play it how i want to play it. I have enough shit in real life to follow let alone follow a game company law. Yes i buy gold to pay for repair bills and flasks so i dont have to farm for hours. Now if i knew my account would not get banned for botting i would do it to pay for my flasks and repair bill. Nuff said i play my way.

As long as you are prepared to take the consequenses, should Blizzard one day choose to punish you, then by all means do what you want.
Just be sure not to claim that is was not your fault afterwards.

Originally posted by eight675309

This ruling says that you cannot modify a piece of sofware at all. This ruling would make everything from countertstrike/HL mods to simply doing something I did just a few days ago: I deleted a file on a messenger program I'm using so every time I got a message I wouldnt get the annoying sound effect played in my ear, because the devs were too stupid/lazy to put an option in to turn it off. All of these things would be illegal. Almost everyone who has posted in this thread is guilty of using such programs in the past, I can virtually guarantee it. This is like buying a car and then painting it a color they do not offer at the car company, and then having them confiscate the car because they didn't like the color your painted it. It really is. The abiity to do what you want with what you own is as the most fundamental consumer right there is.

Game companies can alter their EULA to allow MODs. That's not a problem, so you won't be doing anything illegal. Game developers will actually encourage MODing, if they're smart.  But expect push back from those same game developers if you try to implement a 'child killer' mod or a 'child porn' mod. They may not approve, and thus you'd be held accountable -- likely just a Cease and Desist order.

As for 'fundamental consumer rights' you have to look at the context. Yes you own the car in your example, and you can do with it what you want -- barring any violation of saftey and transportation laws. However, from what I'm reading, your analogy is flawed because Blizzard is arguing that their software is licsensed...not sold. In this case, a better analogy would be you leasing a car from a dealership. You are not free to do what ever you want with a leased car; you don't have the same flexibility you'd have if you bought the same car. You can't repaint a leased car, or attach a spoiler, or rip out the engine and replace it with a suped-up version.  Blizzard is arguing that, in effect, you're leasing the software from them.

So there's no 'doom and gloom' for fundamental consumer rights here.

Originally posted by Cerion

 

Game companies can alter their EULA to allow MODs. That's not a problem, so you won't be doing anything illegal. Game developers will actually encourage MODing, if they're smart.  But expect push back from those same game developers if you try to implement a 'child killer' mod or a 'child porn' mod. They may not approve, and thus you'd be held accountable -- likely just a Cease and Desist order.

As for 'fundamental consumer rights' you have to look at the context. Yes you own the car in your example, and you can do with it what you want -- barring any violation of saftey and transportation laws. However, from what I'm reading, your analogy is flawed because Blizzard is arguing that their software is licsensed...not sold. In this case, a better analogy would be you leasing a car from a dealership. You are not free to do what ever you want with a leased car; you don't have the same flexibility you'd have if you bought the same car. You can't repaint a leased car, or attach a spoiler, or rip out the engine and replace it with a suped-up version.  Blizzard is arguing that, in effect, you're leasing the software from them.

So there's no 'doom and gloom' for fundamental consumer rights here.

That's the problem. Blizzard claims that you don't actually purchase the game, you purchase the right to play the game. This is Orwelian double-speak, at best. You go look at the box of your WOW case and tell me where it says " you are not purchasing this game, only the right to play it". What's even more fun is when you log in, and they tell you that you not only do not own it, you can be denied your "right to play it" for no reason whatsoever. So, in fact, you could be just handing someone money and getting absolutely nothing in return is the company decided to do that. They probably wouldn't do that, sure, but it demonstrates the vast abuse of consumers this nonsensical logic produces when fraud is legally sactioned. It is indeed all doom and gloom for consumer rights, you just don't understand legal precedent.