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Originally posted by Valeran
I will try a bit harder to explain why I dont think this is an issue of people being held hostage. I have stated awhile back now that I think most EULUA's are in fact illegal. Probably almost a year ago now, but in knowing that something is basically illegal before you get into it (the part of "buyer beware") we are all or should all have figured out by the time your an adult. There is still a choice in that this is the entertainment industry and the choice is to seak mmorpgs (not just swg I think all eula's are basically illegal which is why I cant stand seeing threads point out problems about all games targetting only one game as the problem is never gonna be fixed if you dont ask that ALL of them be looked at) as a source of entertainment of play offline games or heck go outside. If you can't deal with the fact that your basically seaking something with sketchy guidelines to start with be it this game or any other game (even WoW or EVE omg..) then as an individual capable of taking responsibility for your wallet and going in with eyes wide open then you need to either a) seak to take the risk and if it comes back to bite you in the butt 6 months later when they change something so be it or b) walk away At the present time those are the only choices one has until the system matures. It takes years for things to change so for now as an adult you have to accept it and do one of the above. I dont think its that huge a deal, but its been made one by people who had been reading eula which basically say "we can do whatever we want" from the get go and I guess not bothering to believe what they read. Thus one has to take responsibility for consciously ignoring a situation in the first place if you choose to click yes to such a contract repeatedly and keep at it and take your chances so be it, but you can't then scream foul when they actually abide by the terms of their contracts. In other situations one would refuse to agree to such a contract if one felt insecure but for some reason in this case when two parties are agreeing to the contract (which you are buy cliccking accept) one party is screaming foul. Games change like the wind I can't think of a single company that has not drastically changed their game now and taken the risk or is thinking of taking the risk. As a consumer one has to take some responsibility for the here and now and the correct action to take if you feel that this situation is one where you are being ripped off is to not click yes and walk away speedy fast and wait for change. Not hang around for like 2 years playing a game and cry foul after repeatedly clicking yes saying you were not expecting it, buying expansions ahead of time even clicking yes some more and then being upset afterwards?
Which games have changed their core like SWG has? More than once I might add.
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs. |
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3/22/09 2:59:21 AM#62
Well its like this, you can play or not, kinda is messed up, ever hear of someone returning a game because they didnt agree? The only thing that really makes me mad, is all the SOE stole my kitten stuff. LA never got any blame in all this from fanatic fanboys, when they mess up SWTOR are you going to be blaming Bio-ware? 100$ says they will blame the messanger everytime meaning SOE and next on the plate will be Bio-ware, the devs said it, its pretty hard to develope a game with a fanbase. Just because Freeman and the rest made the NGE doesnt make them more guilty for ruining the game, me I blame Julio Torres and Nancy you read to much from LA. Because they ordered another major change to the game, and they approved it. |
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3/22/09 3:16:36 AM#63
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
I will try a bit harder to explain why I dont think this is an issue of people being held hostage. I have stated awhile back now that I think most EULUA's are in fact illegal. Probably almost a year ago now, but in knowing that something is basically illegal before you get into it (the part of "buyer beware") we are all or should all have figured out by the time your an adult. There is still a choice in that this is the entertainment industry and the choice is to seak mmorpgs (not just swg I think all eula's are basically illegal which is why I cant stand seeing threads point out problems about all games targetting only one game as the problem is never gonna be fixed if you dont ask that ALL of them be looked at) as a source of entertainment of play offline games or heck go outside. If you can't deal with the fact that your basically seaking something with sketchy guidelines to start with be it this game or any other game (even WoW or EVE omg..) then as an individual capable of taking responsibility for your wallet and going in with eyes wide open then you need to either a) seak to take the risk and if it comes back to bite you in the butt 6 months later when they change something so be it or b) walk away At the present time those are the only choices one has until the system matures. It takes years for things to change so for now as an adult you have to accept it and do one of the above. I dont think its that huge a deal, but its been made one by people who had been reading eula which basically say "we can do whatever we want" from the get go and I guess not bothering to believe what they read. Thus one has to take responsibility for consciously ignoring a situation in the first place if you choose to click yes to such a contract repeatedly and keep at it and take your chances so be it, but you can't then scream foul when they actually abide by the terms of their contracts. In other situations one would refuse to agree to such a contract if one felt insecure but for some reason in this case when two parties are agreeing to the contract (which you are buy cliccking accept) one party is screaming foul. Games change like the wind I can't think of a single company that has not drastically changed their game now and taken the risk or is thinking of taking the risk. As a consumer one has to take some responsibility for the here and now and the correct action to take if you feel that this situation is one where you are being ripped off is to not click yes and walk away speedy fast and wait for change. Not hang around for like 2 years playing a game and cry foul after repeatedly clicking yes saying you were not expecting it, buying expansions ahead of time even clicking yes some more and then being upset afterwards?
Which games have changed their core like SWG has? More than once I might add.
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs.
yeah actualy you need to like read what i say as for "distortion of reality" if you want to use words like that then your just using the backhanded insult crap. An insult is still an insult so realize that you just did exactly what you blame others for. YOu know archangel at this point I lump you with all the rest of the crusaders who just can't get over the past. You dont read anything said here unless it suits your purpose. Here is a newslash look up the words "NGE and WOW" and you will find articles likening the change of the WoW combat system to the Sony NGE and questions asked like "why did blizzard get away with it and sony not". Sad truth is you have blinders on. I have not found any games where they have not had to implement revamps as they age from adding level systems to totally open sandboxes (no I'm not talking about SWG I'm talking about another game) to complete combat revamps (again I"m not talking SWG I'm talking another game) you refuse to acknowledge that the grass is not any greener on the other side of the street and sit here piling all the woes of the gaming industry on one single company that is operating EXACTLY the same as any other company around .
Let me know when you want to actually have a discussion because right now your disguising your hate for a single company attempting to call it a discussion in general but not all at the same time. Make up your mind do you want to discuss games? or simply be like everyone else here and insult present day players and accuse everyone of defending a company for actually stating an opinion on gaming in general. If your not interested in it please say so and I wil just let you go on your crusade and ignore you like all the rest. |
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3/22/09 3:52:39 AM#64
Originally posted by BullseyeArc1
I personally can't wait for the bioware mmo to be released. It will prove once and forall that LA and bioware and any other holy grail company you can think of with regards to the supposed saviours of the SWG gaming community is just as greedy if not moreso then LA has been with the SWG game. They are attempting to design a game that will appeal mainly to kotor fans the artwork and everything about the game screams that. KOTOR fans are for the most part offline casual gamers (somewhat like oo the blizzard offline games) and F2P and online card TCG's are all the rage. I would bet good money its got a RMT system in place and that not long after a card game is invented to go along with the rest of it. I doubt reality will hit some of the regular posters here though. They will probably stil be hiding from the truth of the situation which was that gaming was changing and companies changed with it. |
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Originally posted by BullseyeArc1
Nancy surely seemed to give the impression that reading and complexity are bad. As for Julio, I was never a fan of the way he seemed to market the game. I especially didn' tlike the way he threw current players under the bus (imo) during interviews. Although SOE invented, pushed and implemented the NGE (and other unwelcome changes), LEC certainly had a role to play. Most people I know don't deny this. However, it's SOE that often gets defended by spurious logic and/or insults (not by posters like you btw, which is very refreshing). As a result, I think they get the bulk of responses. Also, Smed seems to have this habit of saying one thing to players and then doing the opposite, and not just in SWG. I think he's his own worst enemy in this regard. He also seems to claim to learn things and then turn around and do them again. So, people listen to him, have a faint hope that their MMO of choice could improve, and then watch as the next buzz-kill is implemented amid the protests of his players. |
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Originally posted by ummax
Which games have changed their core like SWG has? More than once I might add.
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs.
yeah actualy you need to like read what i say as for "distortion of reality" if you want to use words like that then your just using the backhanded insult crap. An insult is still an insult so realize that you just did exactly what you blame others for. YOu know archangel at this point I lump you with all the rest of the crusaders who just can't get over the past. You dont read anything said here unless it suits your purpose. Here is a newslash look up the words "NGE and WOW" and you will find articles likening the change of the WoW combat system to the Sony NGE and questions asked like "why did blizzard get away with it and sony not". Sad truth is you have blinders on. I have not found any games where they have not had to implement revamps as they age from adding level systems to totally open sandboxes (no I'm not talking about SWG I'm talking about another game) to complete combat revamps (again I"m not talking SWG I'm talking another game) you refuse to acknowledge that the grass is not any greener on the other side of the street and sit here piling all the woes of the gaming industry on one single company that is operating EXACTLY the same as any other company around .
Let me know when you want to actually have a discussion because right now your disguising your hate for a single company attempting to call it a discussion in general but not all at the same time. Make up your mind do you want to discuss games? or simply be like everyone else here and insult present day players and accuse everyone of defending a company for actually stating an opinion on gaming in general. If your not interested in it please say so and I wil just let you go on your crusade and ignore you like all the rest.
I really don't think you understand many of the comments I make. You then seem to project negative meanings onto them, that simply aren't there. For instance, now you're accusing me of being hateful and insulting. It's also clear that you don't understand my comments about EULA and contract law. It's clear that you don't see the difference in magnitude of game changes in SWG versus WoW. You also don't seem to see the difference between how the changes were implemented. You also seem to make statements and then later deny doing so, or perhaps forget what you said for some reason. It's clear that whatever our differences of opinion, they can't be resolved using simple communication. I think that's unfortunate, but it seems to be realistic. Ignoring me probably isn't a bad idea. As I've read through this thread, however, I'm even more convinced that some (probably a few) players are vulnerable to what I've highlighted as "identification with the aggressor" though. It seems that offences are excused, explained away and blamed on players. It seems that some players also think that all MMOs are the same and will treat them with equal disdain. All I can say is that I've played three MMOs since this one, and the quality and customer service between the other companies and SOE was like night and day to me. It was very refreshing. So, there is life outside of SWG, and it seems to be a lot more hassle free and entertaining imo. For those that are unwilling or unable to see this for some reason, I respectfully choose to leave them with their worldview.
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3/22/09 12:29:16 PM#67
This is possibly the most worthless debate I've seen on these forums yet. Comparing people in a life and death struggle to mmo subscribers? get a grip. So some people like the current game? There's no more analasys required other than to say that they like something the vast majority don't like, no different to any other facet of human nature. ...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought. |
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3/22/09 3:01:54 PM#68
Originally posted by efefia
actually this thread does prove one very important fact. ARGUING ABOUT THE GAME IS LOADS MORE FUN THAN PLAYING IT. |
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3/22/09 4:07:13 PM#69
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Which games have changed their core like SWG has? More than once I might add.
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs.
yeah actualy you need to like read what i say as for "distortion of reality" if you want to use words like that then your just using the backhanded insult crap. An insult is still an insult so realize that you just did exactly what you blame others for. YOu know archangel at this point I lump you with all the rest of the crusaders who just can't get over the past. You dont read anything said here unless it suits your purpose. Here is a newslash look up the words "NGE and WOW" and you will find articles likening the change of the WoW combat system to the Sony NGE and questions asked like "why did blizzard get away with it and sony not". Sad truth is you have blinders on. I have not found any games where they have not had to implement revamps as they age from adding level systems to totally open sandboxes (no I'm not talking about SWG I'm talking about another game) to complete combat revamps (again I"m not talking SWG I'm talking another game) you refuse to acknowledge that the grass is not any greener on the other side of the street and sit here piling all the woes of the gaming industry on one single company that is operating EXACTLY the same as any other company around .
Let me know when you want to actually have a discussion because right now your disguising your hate for a single company attempting to call it a discussion in general but not all at the same time. Make up your mind do you want to discuss games? or simply be like everyone else here and insult present day players and accuse everyone of defending a company for actually stating an opinion on gaming in general. If your not interested in it please say so and I wil just let you go on your crusade and ignore you like all the rest.
I really don't think you understand many of the comments I make. You then seem to project negative meanings onto them, that simply aren't there. For instance, now you're accusing me of being hateful and insulting. It's also clear that you don't understand my comments about EULA and contract law. It's clear that you don't see the difference in magnitude of game changes in SWG versus WoW. You also don't seem to see the difference between how the changes were implemented. You also seem to make statements and then later deny doing so, or perhaps forget what you said for some reason. It's clear that whatever our differences of opinion, they can't be resolved using simple communication. I think that's unfortunate, but it seems to be realistic. Ignoring me probably isn't a bad idea. As I've read through this thread, however, I'm even more convinced that some (probably a few) players are vulnerable to what I've highlighted as "identification with the aggressor" though. It seems that offences are excused, explained away and blamed on players. It seems that some players also think that all MMOs are the same and will treat them with equal disdain. All I can say is that I've played three MMOs since this one, and the quality and customer service between the other companies and SOE was like night and day to me. It was very refreshing. So, there is life outside of SWG, and it seems to be a lot more hassle free and entertaining imo. For those that are unwilling or unable to see this for some reason, I respectfully choose to leave them with their worldview.
I see another doctor in the house welcome to the looney bin take a seat, but dont tell people that your different. You just use larger paragraphs. I certainly understand what you say you simply dont like to read what others say and like everyone here you need at least one person to disgree with in order to argue. Since we both agree that elua's are probably not particularly legal then it stands to reason that they all are not legal in the gaming industry. I know exactly what happened with WoW and other games and I know why people put up with changes now and didn't then. It simple really beyond words ... people are now used to changes and have learned that if they want to play a game they choose one and go with it and that nothing lasts forever. Anyhow open your eyes its all around you and if you want change (and it appears you do) then your going to have to say something about the entire mess. You choose not to look that is your problem however anyone that has witnessed what other companies do and are doing will confirm what has been said and have in fact confirmed it on these boards for you and others who try to deny that it happened elsewhere. However each time conveniently I might add you ignore the posts and move to other threads and close your eyes tightly so that you can continue to hate just one company and post only in these forums as opposed to the general forums where people might actually disagree with you or discuss things with you. What YOU want is everyone to pat you on the back and tell you your right so sit down and pour your troubles out (again) and tell everyone around you that this is normal what you do and then turn around and tell those who call you on it crazy so as to make yourself feel better. I find it funny , but this is oo so seroius to you how you lost your loved on 3 years back and have not gotten over it.. and here we sit every day with archangel making sure that no one ever forgets. Unfortunately for you at this point no one cares and no one even knows swg or nge with the exception of the 5 or so people that clamour around here in these hollow boards of nothingness. I know what your doing so at least be kind enough to admit it to yourself. You dont want to discuss gaming you want to discuss GAME one game with one name called SWG but you dont really want to discuss that either you want everyone here to say your right every time and want to use words like delusion to "discuss". Well lets be darned sure here your not discussing you have placed a label on others cause you dont think like they do and they dont think like you. Have at it as it seems you have nothing else to do with your time and you do seem to enjoy hashing and rehashing the same 3 points over and over again with no new points of view to deal with I mean that would require that you think which you dont want to do. You just want to posts your essays and have everyone tell you how great they are. Okay for you and others here
Yes archangel your right and I pat you on the back for your magnificent incite the same one you post every week on these boards. The same incites you have posted repeatedly for 3 lonng years. Now that you too have judged a player base and posters using words like "delusional" I can say what others have said to you and others OMG get over it already and move on this is not normal. Bye (I will be back in 6 months to point out your still here saying the same thing you said the last time I was here. ) happy post grinding I hope you find a new and better hobby one day but I doubt it you seem perfectly happy having the same conversation every single day of your life. lol |
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3/22/09 6:15:12 PM#70
*Wall of Text crits you for 8831 points of damage*
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Originally posted by ummax
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs.
yeah actualy you need to like read what i say as for "distortion of reality" if you want to use words like that then your just using the backhanded insult crap. An insult is still an insult so realize that you just did exactly what you blame others for. YOu know archangel at this point I lump you with all the rest of the crusaders who just can't get over the past. You dont read anything said here unless it suits your purpose. Here is a newslash look up the words "NGE and WOW" and you will find articles likening the change of the WoW combat system to the Sony NGE and questions asked like "why did blizzard get away with it and sony not". Sad truth is you have blinders on. I have not found any games where they have not had to implement revamps as they age from adding level systems to totally open sandboxes (no I'm not talking about SWG I'm talking about another game) to complete combat revamps (again I"m not talking SWG I'm talking another game) you refuse to acknowledge that the grass is not any greener on the other side of the street and sit here piling all the woes of the gaming industry on one single company that is operating EXACTLY the same as any other company around .
Let me know when you want to actually have a discussion because right now your disguising your hate for a single company attempting to call it a discussion in general but not all at the same time. Make up your mind do you want to discuss games? or simply be like everyone else here and insult present day players and accuse everyone of defending a company for actually stating an opinion on gaming in general. If your not interested in it please say so and I wil just let you go on your crusade and ignore you like all the rest.
I really don't think you understand many of the comments I make. You then seem to project negative meanings onto them, that simply aren't there. For instance, now you're accusing me of being hateful and insulting. It's also clear that you don't understand my comments about EULA and contract law. It's clear that you don't see the difference in magnitude of game changes in SWG versus WoW. You also don't seem to see the difference between how the changes were implemented. You also seem to make statements and then later deny doing so, or perhaps forget what you said for some reason. It's clear that whatever our differences of opinion, they can't be resolved using simple communication. I think that's unfortunate, but it seems to be realistic. Ignoring me probably isn't a bad idea. As I've read through this thread, however, I'm even more convinced that some (probably a few) players are vulnerable to what I've highlighted as "identification with the aggressor" though. It seems that offences are excused, explained away and blamed on players. It seems that some players also think that all MMOs are the same and will treat them with equal disdain. All I can say is that I've played three MMOs since this one, and the quality and customer service between the other companies and SOE was like night and day to me. It was very refreshing. So, there is life outside of SWG, and it seems to be a lot more hassle free and entertaining imo. For those that are unwilling or unable to see this for some reason, I respectfully choose to leave them with their worldview.
I see another doctor in the house welcome to the looney bin take a seat, but dont tell people that your different. You just use larger paragraphs. I certainly understand what you say you simply dont like to read what others say and like everyone here you need at least one person to disgree with in order to argue. Since we both agree that elua's are probably not particularly legal then it stands to reason that they all are not legal in the gaming industry. I know exactly what happened with WoW and other games and I know why people put up with changes now and didn't then. It simple really beyond words ... people are now used to changes and have learned that if they want to play a game they choose one and go with it and that nothing lasts forever. Anyhow open your eyes its all around you and if you want change (and it appears you do) then your going to have to say something about the entire mess. You choose not to look that is your problem however anyone that has witnessed what other companies do and are doing will confirm what has been said and have in fact confirmed it on these boards for you and others who try to deny that it happened elsewhere. However each time conveniently I might add you ignore the posts and move to other threads and close your eyes tightly so that you can continue to hate just one company and post only in these forums as opposed to the general forums where people might actually disagree with you or discuss things with you. What YOU want is everyone to pat you on the back and tell you your right so sit down and pour your troubles out (again) and tell everyone around you that this is normal what you do and then turn around and tell those who call you on it crazy so as to make yourself feel better. I find it funny , but this is oo so seroius to you how you lost your loved on 3 years back and have not gotten over it.. and here we sit every day with archangel making sure that no one ever forgets. Unfortunately for you at this point no one cares and no one even knows swg or nge with the exception of the 5 or so people that clamour around here in these hollow boards of nothingness. I know what your doing so at least be kind enough to admit it to yourself. You dont want to discuss gaming you want to discuss GAME one game with one name called SWG but you dont really want to discuss that either you want everyone here to say your right every time and want to use words like delusion to "discuss". Well lets be darned sure here your not discussing you have placed a label on others cause you dont think like they do and they dont think like you. Have at it as it seems you have nothing else to do with your time and you do seem to enjoy hashing and rehashing the same 3 points over and over again with no new points of view to deal with I mean that would require that you think which you dont want to do. You just want to posts your essays and have everyone tell you how great they are. Okay for you and others here
Yes archangel your right and I pat you on the back for your magnificent incite the same one you post every week on these boards. The same incites you have posted repeatedly for 3 lonng years. Now that you too have judged a player base and posters using words like "delusional" I can say what others have said to you and others OMG get over it already and move on this is not normal. Bye (I will be back in 6 months to point out your still here saying the same thing you said the last time I was here. ) happy post grinding I hope you find a new and better hobby one day but I doubt it you seem perfectly happy having the same conversation every single day of your life. lol
/politely refuses to dance :) |
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3/23/09 11:59:21 AM#72
Jesus these wall of text are taller than the Eifel tower! SWTOR: sub ended, no thanks to Georg Zoeller! |
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3/23/09 12:08:03 PM#73
Even when I need the break, I keep going back to City of Heroes/Villains because of its combat system, it's the closest there is to pre-CU's combat system (lock target, queue attacks, non-diminishing chance rolls, etc.) plus the game has decent support from devs & customer services and they release free content at least twice a year. Tabula Rasa had excellet customer service, probably the best I've seen but unfortunately that game didn't live for long. The current combat system in SWG is so disheartening, I can't even stand it and they continue to change/nerf something with it.
SWTOR: sub ended, no thanks to Georg Zoeller! |
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Originally posted by efefia
I agree with you on this, believe it or not. In my experience, 99% of people that still play and even defend the game do so simply because they enjoy their experience and their community. I don't think it's helpful at all to put these folks down, and some are my good friends. At the same time, I have seen a few things that have given me cause to reflect with concern on some of the social dynamics in MMOs. I have seen people develop what appears to be a strong emotional/social dependence on an MMO. I thought that it's possible that the MMO becomes more of a need than a luxury, and then when this need is threatened people may react defensively. I've wondered if this dependence could even lead to some people defending the MMO and the service provider at the expense of good reality testing. I've wondered if people would blame themselves and other gamers for poor treatment by the service provider. I've wondered if people would even become aggressive themselves in doing this. Frankly, I have seen all of these hallmarks from a very few SOE defenders, and it's led me to wonder exactly what's going on there. I've just finished visiting another forum where someone defending their MMO of choice provided their address to another poster along with an invitation to come and settle their difference through violence. This, in my opinion, is most certainly identification with the aggressor, quite literally. Having said that, I think it's important to highlight that "identification with the aggressor" is not only found in life and death struggles. I actually highlighted that much earlier in the thread. People can do it in peer groups for instance. Ever see someone put themselves down to try to gain the favour of a powerful peer group? I have, and that's the same principle at work. The principle is simply most evident when the stakes are the highest, which is why I used such a scenario as an example. All in all, if anyone finds him or herself aggressively defending an MMO at the expense of good reality testing, and at the expense of someone else's dignity, I think it doesn't hurt to take a step back and see what the hell is going on under the hood so to speak. |
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Originally posted by sookster54 My customer service experience in CoH was also excellent. Once when an NPC wouldn't follow me, I got a CSR to correct the problem within 10 minutes of submitting a ticket. The person was very friendly and helpful. When I had the same problem in SWG, I frankly never got a response to my ticket. After about 6 months, there was a general post on the dev forum saying there were plans to address the issue; SOE eventually deleted the entire quest line. Problem solved I guess lol. Quite frankly, these are simply concrete examples of a different level of service. I hear similar good things from friends about EVE, WoW and Lotr. There is usually the odd horror story too, but it's a matter of degree. No game or service provider is perfect, but there are noticeable differences in my experience, and apparently in the experience of millions of other players that stick with the game that seems to have the most polish. Games also change, but once again this is a matter of degree. Was the core system ripped out and replaced as it was in SWG, twice? (some would argue 3 x) Also, there are differences in communication. Are players given fair warning about upcoming changes? Are the changes left on test for days, or a month or more? Do the changes add to the game or take away from it? Does player feedback influence the upcoming patch or doesn't it? If it does, how much so? I think it's good reality testing to recognize that all games and game companies are not equal when these questions are answered. Some seem to have a better track record than others. I think if people can recognize this, it opens up more positive options. I also think it holds the service provider accountable for some level of quality. Sometimes I get the impression that some SOE defenders would like everyone to believe that all MMOs have just as many bugs and issues, revamps, and poor customer service. If everyone sucks, why look for a better option? The trouble with this approach is that in my experience, it's simply not true. If anyone checks the rating/comments section of this site regarding the various games, I know I'm not alone in this assessment.
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3/23/09 12:55:59 PM#76
Been reading around the Flurry forums (where I transferred my characters to) and there seems to be lots of people leaving the game lately, most of them are saying it's due to the spy patch killing pvp and nothing left to do in pve. During the reactivation period I was bored to death with pve and did run some instances, they were tedious and involves routine (doing the exact same thing over and over).
SWTOR: sub ended, no thanks to Georg Zoeller! |
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3/23/09 1:02:15 PM#77
Just thought I would pop in and say that I believe that mental disorders such as variations of Stockholm Syndrome seem to be present in and almost made more accute in the mmo world. Well thought out dialogue from different parties on this thread. <Mod Edit> If you have any questions about this forum's moderation please contact community@mmorpg.com. Thank you.
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3/23/09 2:32:42 PM#78
Player Edit. No thanks. I rarely practice efforts of futility.
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3/23/09 3:45:37 PM#79
Originally posted by sookster54
Kauri forums are dead. I wonder if this post will get deleted? -------- "SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor |
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Originally posted by kefkah
I agree on the "well thought out dialogue." I especially appreciated those that pointed out that most people defending a game simply enjoy it and/or their community. I happen to agree with this too, and I think it was important to highlight. At the same time, it's become even more clear to me that some (probably very few) people in an MMO may defend it very aggressively. Sometimes this involves insults, rationalizations and blaming players for the game's problems. Is the game so important that they feel a need to defend it at the expense of accuracy and someone else's dignity? I'm not sure if that's the reason frankly, but I think it's very ugly. |
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