You sound like someone who made up their mind before posting this thread what your conclusion would be. So what's the point of responding to your thread?

I suppose you don't go to the movie theatre to watch movies, because eventually the good ones will be on TV anyway.

If no one pays people for the work they do, why would they ever do the work? Think about it.

I have to say your logic is a bit flawed. The reason I play MMO's is because of all of those things you mentioned that aren't reasons.

Sure that are some good Co-Op games, great quest games, great pvp type of games. However they all lack one major thing I can't do all of these things in one of the games with a large amount of friends at any time of the day or night. Sure, even in a MMO things can be come limited during off hours. They also offer some of the best co-op capabilities in really any game out there without having to pvp in the games co-op mode. Also most other games do not encompass a good in-game chat system to talk with your friend if you are not in the same area and still be aware of your surroundings and not take away from the emphasis of the fantasy world.

There are better questing games, however how many of those great games with awesome quest offer good multiplayer support in a secure environment. I like to see my characters progress indefinently or to at least some point where the rewards take so long to get and become more trivial in comparison to the amount of time it takes to get them. This does not have to mean they are worthless if you are still having fun then it is worth it.

Another reason though is that many of the games that do come out with good co-op opportunities that are worth playing do not come out on the computer. Although I have all the system the computer is still the gaming system of my choice that and I can't aim worth crap with a xbox or ps3 controller.

That's the jist of it. There is more I could add it would help my argument other than allowing it to become much more clear.

Originally posted by FolbyOrb

You sound like someone who made up their mind before posting this thread what your conclusion would be. So what's the point of responding to your thread?

I suppose you don't go to the movie theatre to watch movies, because eventually the good ones will be on TV anyway.

If no one pays people for the work they do, why would they ever do the work? Think about it.

Would you go to the movies if the cinema charged every film viewer an additional £5 to "cover the cost" of the people running the cinema, even though you know that this should already be included in the original ticket price? Sure you could afford it but would it sit well with you knowing that the extra £5 is simply an extra fee being charged simply because they can and not because its warranted? Or how about being charged £5 to enter a pub on the pretence that it covers the cost of wear & tear on the pubs furniture?

I dont think this thread is neccessarily about whether the OP or anyone else can afford the cost because abviously a monthly fee isnt going to make anyone bankrupt. Its really more about whether the monthly fee is neccessary considering that other mmos dont charge extra (some have a one off fee and others are free) and also the quality of single player games (which often come with a multiplayer option) is often vastly superior to what we are seeing in most mmos. These P2P mmos dont really seem to offer much more than the other types of games in quality.

Very few mmos are actually made to a high standard and it has become common practice to release them in a heavily incomplete state and yet still charge a monthly fee while they finish making them. As the years go by people are beginning to accept this more and more. When an mmo releases these days with giant gaping holes in its content, huge amounts of bugs, missing features, extremely shoddy gameplay and badly thought out game mechanics (eg WAR) people just say things like "Oh well all mmos have problems at the start" and "This mmo has potential". Then several years later when the game STILL has loads of bugs and various other problems people say "Ah but no mmo is perfect. Mmos are always evolving" even though the actual game itself hasnt evolved at all and is essentially still the same game that it was on its release date. How does a static unchangeable gameworld that provides the exact same gaming experience to every individual player evolve anyway? The answer is that it doesnt. The devs might add new monster spawns, new zones and starter areas, nerf classes etc but this isnt "evolving".......this is called "making a computer game". Its the same process the game goes through before it gets released except that with mmos the process continues while people pay for it. The devs are making the game up until the release date. The only difference in this process is that after the release date the servers are opened to the public and the devs get paid extra money every month to continue making the game.

However Guildwars is a great example of the efforts of a fair company. They dont charge people for the privelege of taking part in the "evolving creation process" of their game. They just charged a straight fixed fee like any other computer game and continued to maintain, fix and tweak it just like any decent games company should do. Then as they work on extra expansions they charge for them seperately as individual products while at the same time still continueing to work on their original game. I dont hear about them going bankrupt or not being able to pay their staff. I really dont think that the wages for the staff of a P2P mmo come anywhere near the amount of money they rake in each month from subscription fees. The work they do is certainly skilled work but their costs arent THAT high.

WoW has 11 million subscribers each at roughly £10 a month. You dont seriously think they need this money to cover their costs do you? Pay them for the work they do? Sure......but these companies are totally taking the piss and its becoming common practice which I dont think is right at all.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by FolbyOrb

You sound like someone who made up their mind before posting this thread what your conclusion would be. So what's the point of responding to your thread?

I suppose you don't go to the movie theatre to watch movies, because eventually the good ones will be on TV anyway.

If no one pays people for the work they do, why would they ever do the work? Think about it.

 

Would you go to the movies if the cinema charged every film viewer an additional £5 to "cover the cost" of the people running the cinema, even though you know that this should already be included in the original ticket price? Sure you could afford it but would it sit well with you knowing that the extra £5 is simply an extra fee being charged simply because they can and not because its warranted? Or how about being charged £5 to enter a pub on the pretence that it covers the cost of wear & tear on the pubs furniture?

I dont think this thread is neccessarily about whether the OP or anyone else can afford the cost because abviously a monthly fee isnt going to make anyone bankrupt. Its really more about whether the monthly fee is neccessary considering that other mmos dont charge extra (some have a one off fee and others are free) and also the quality of single player games (which often come with a multiplayer option) is often vastly superior to what we are seeing in most mmos. These P2P mmos dont really seem to offer much more than the other types of games in quality.

Very few mmos are actually made to a high standard and it has become common practice to release them in a heavily incomplete state and yet still charge a monthly fee while they finish making them. As the years go by people are beginning to accept this more and more. When an mmo releases these days with giant gaping holes in its content, huge amounts of bugs, missing features, extremely shoddy gameplay and badly thought out game mechanics (eg WAR) people just say things like "Oh well all mmos have problems at the start" and "This mmo has potential". Then several years later when the game STILL has loads of bugs and various other problems people say "Ah but no mmo is perfect. Mmos are always evolving" even though the actual game itself hasnt evolved at all and is essentially still the same game that it was on its release date. How does a static unchangeable gameworld that provides the exact same gaming experience to every individual player evolve anyway? The answer is that it doesnt. The devs might add new monster spawns, new zones and starter areas, nerf classes etc but this isnt "evolving".......this is called "making a computer game". Its the same process the game goes through before it gets released except that with mmos the process continues while people pay for it. The devs are making the game up until the release date. The only difference in this process is that after the release date the servers are opened to the public and the devs get paid extra money every month to continue making the game.

However Guildwars is a great example of the efforts of a fair company. They dont charge people for the privelege of taking part in the "evolving creation process" of their game. They just charged a straight fixed fee like any other computer game and continued to maintain, fix and tweak it just like any decent games company should do. Then as they work on extra expansions they charge for them seperately as individual products while at the same time still continueing to work on their original game. I dont hear about them going bankrupt or not being able to pay their staff. I really dont think that the wages for the staff of a P2P mmo come anywhere near the amount of money they rake in each month from subscription fees. The work they do is certainly skilled work but their costs arent THAT high.

WoW has 11 million subscribers each at roughly £10 a month. You dont seriously think they need this money to cover their costs do you? Pay them for the work they do? Sure......but these companies are totally taking the piss and its becoming common practice which I dont think is right at all.

Neonwire, you and I come from different countries, but our thinking process is exactly the same. Some people call us jaded, while others might say we've seen the light, had the veil lifted, snapped out of it, or some other cliche phrase that refers to us not being gullible anymore. I stand by and agree with everything you've said so far. Kudos to you for explaining things better than I can.

As for the rest of the posters here. If I haven't personally responded to your thread, it's not because I didn't read it. I've read every post in this thread so far. I haven't responded to those that repeat what others have said, because I've replied to every point at least once. So you can read the whole thread if you want, to get all my replies, otherwise thanks for keeping the conversation going.

I realized I got off topic without even knowing it, because the two things are related it seems. But Neonwire is right. The thread is about what makes MMO's worth $15/mo, when other games do similar or better for free. The answer it seems is nothing. MMO's aren't worth $15/mo, they just are because people are sheep and will pay it. There are many justifications as to why people pay the subscription fee and no one can argue those, because it is a cheap form of entertainment and fun is subjective. But in the end, whether you admit it or not, the MMORPG you're playing isn't giving you anything that you couldn't get for free elsewhere. The only exceptions are those MMORPG's that offer complete freedom, which most people call sandbox games, even though not all sandbox games has complete freedom.

I think that MMO's are the most inexpensive social hobby a person can have.  I'm fine with paying $15/mo for something I enjoy doing rather than, say $15 a night bowling or something like that.

Originally posted by nate1980

*WARNING!!! This thread will require you to read everything and engage in deep thought and conversation. If you cannot do this, then you're wasting your time*

To avoid responses concerning my experience in the genre, I've been playing any and all MMO's since 2001.

So down to the topic at hand. What makes MMORPG's worth $15/mo when no other genre charges that amount?

* It's not the quests, because single player games offer much more complex quests. Some games even offer the players the ability to change the game world with their decisions.

* It's not the group play, because there are numerous examples of single player games allowing a Co-op mode for their games.

* It's not the PvP, because there are numerous single player games offering the ability to PvP against others in a multiplayer mode.

* It can't be the chat, since anyone can IM others or join chat rooms for free.

What is it exactly about MMORPG's that hasn't been done for free, that makes it worth your money. Really think about this. Many people admit to doing large grinds whose only goal is to keep you subscribing. In my opinion, it's illogical to pay extra money to get the same gameplay you can get for free. If you have a logical reason why MMO's should charge a subscription, please reply with it. But before you do, ask yourself if that reason has been given for free elsewhere.

In my opinion, the only distinguishing feature is that MMO's allow you to be a hamster. "Give me $15 and I'll let you jog on this treadmill for 30 days," says the MMO company. Keep in mind that while quality may justify a product having more value than something of lesser quality, a game mechanic of good quality alone doesn't justify a subsciption if someone else offers it for free.

First of all, not all MMO even have monthly fees, if you don't want to pay anything, play Guildwars instead. It is as good as most MMOs at least.

Secondly: Only you can decide what you think a game is worth to play. I do agree that MMO companies probably makes more money than solo player ones (no way that they are paying that much money for customer support and bandwith, they are probably taking at least half every month in profit) but I still think it is well paid money, it is about 4 Guiness for me at the pub (also a good investment) for many hours fun.

A solo game might give you more fun for each dollar but I don't pay some more to get more fun. I like MMOs. Of course once Guildwars 2 comes out I might give up on monthly fee games all together since it will hopefully delivers the same things as the rest as good for no monthly fees at all.

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away a company named Blizzard created a phenom called Diablo.  This RPG took the world by storm and offered gamers a game that was a raw version of MMORPG's to come.  It had multiclassed, skill based characters, loot, quests, mobs, social grouping, and many other elements of the modern MMO.  It however lacked one important part; MASSIVE.  Diablo was limited to a small online group in a controlled environment.  It also contained many bugs and exploits that unbalanced the players and made everyone a virtual game god.  Along came Ultima online, and finally the MASSIVE was added to the MORPG.  I remember a friend of mine trying to sell me on the game by saying "There's no cheating because your character is saved on their server. You can't twink a toon."  A game like this requires much in the ways of server maintenence, upkeep and the like.  Hence, the monthly fee was created.  We pay to keep the servers alive and well.  And, to keep in spirit with the MASSIVE in MMORPG's, revenue keeps the designers working to create new and exciting content.  Many free to play games have been released, but I have yet to find one that equally compares to the quality of the pay as you play counterpart.  Until they catch up, I'll fork up my 15 dollars.

if interacting with other people in a game is like a hamster on a treadmill.

Then why post here, you should write you opinion in a txt file and save it on your desktop.

Read it every morning and feel good with yourself.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by robbykl1415

Originally posted by nate1980

*WARNING!!! This thread will require you to read everything and engage in deep thought and conversation. If you cannot do this, then you're wasting your time*

To avoid responses concerning my experience in the genre, I've been playing any and all MMO's since 2001.

So down to the topic at hand. What makes MMORPG's worth $15/mo when no other genre charges that amount?

* It's not the quests, because single player games offer much more complex quests. Some games even offer the players the ability to change the game world with their decisions.

* It's not the group play, because there are numerous examples of single player games allowing a Co-op mode for their games.

* It's not the PvP, because there are numerous single player games offering the ability to PvP against others in a multiplayer mode.

* It can't be the chat, since anyone can IM others or join chat rooms for free.

What is it exactly about MMORPG's that hasn't been done for free, that makes it worth your money. Really think about this. Many people admit to doing large grinds whose only goal is to keep you subscribing. In my opinion, it's illogical to pay extra money to get the same gameplay you can get for free. If you have a logical reason why MMO's should charge a subscription, please reply with it. But before you do, ask yourself if that reason has been given for free elsewhere.

In my opinion, the only distinguishing feature is that MMO's allow you to be a hamster. "Give me $15 and I'll let you jog on this treadmill for 30 days," says the MMO company. Keep in mind that while quality may justify a product having more value than something of lesser quality, a game mechanic of good quality alone doesn't justify a subsciption if someone else offers it for free.

I think honestly that its that MMO's take all those things and put them all together.
 

I think that also its the thought of us doing all these things in a seamless world with thousands of other players.

I think that those two things really draw most people into the MMO field IMO.

 

Yeah absolutely thats what draws people towards playing mmos. Its what hooks people into them.

But the original topic of the thread was "What makes all of this worth a £10 monthly fee?" when there are games around which offer these things for free.

Thats what I am saying to OP is that when you put all those things together plus the ever changing world with expansions and the fact that they still have to pay the staff and keep servers up, all those things together and you get the monthly fee that we pay.

And the bottom line is that we pay it and as long as we pay it they are going to keep charging us.

I mean why wouldnt they?

Tl:dr

To the OP;

Running servers where hundreds, if not thousands, if not tens of thousands of ONLINE connections connect similtaniuously causinh a huge demand on server bandwidth and stability.

Its pretty simple to understand if you have ever played first person shooters.

Lets take unreal tournament 2004 for example (my favorite fps).  They released a demo which millions of people downloaded.  That demo had many servers which many people played.  THEN the game was actually released, and the demo servers came down to 2 from possible hundreds.  Suddenly, those that were playing the demo online and were having a grand old time were left with a problem, either buy the game and play instantly, or keep on playing the demo and have ridiculous waiting periods.

Of course the smart players bought the actual game.  What did these players find when they bought the game?  There were only 2 servers sponsored (paid for) by Ataris (Unreal tournament creator) and the other 2 were just demo servers that everybody had previously played on and had a limited map selection.

ALLLL the other servers were player paid for.   Running servers is expensive.

If it offers enough gameplay to justify it.  The average PC or console game, new, goes for $50-60.  Good FPSs I finish in around 10-15 hrs.  Same for action games.  Something on the opposite spectrum like Fallout3 or Total War can get me closer to  60-80 hrs+.  A MMO however, easily nets me 100s of hours of entertainment.  Thats worth it to me, if its a quality MMO that is.  Most MMOs are NOT worth any fee at all, which is why I don't play most of them past the beta.

Any MMO will HAVE TO do better than WOW for me to spend a dime.   The polish and presentation better be equivalent or I'll just feel like I'm wasting money.  MMOs are no longer a basement genre, so they can't get away with what they could back with EQ, DAOC or AO.  They can't do what Funcom did with AOC.  They can't pull a Darkfall or Vangaurd.  I don't stick around for what could be and I'm ALWAYS an early adopter.  If the beta isn't release worthy, it won't see my money.  I'm not so forgiving anymore.

Originally posted by nate1980

Originally posted by vinceh

Originally posted by nate1980

Originally posted by vinceh

Originally posted by nate1980

 

 

 

 

 

But in reality, players on the other side of the map don't effect you at all. Only people close to you could arguably effect you, and that's because they are competing for the same spawn, assiting you kill a mob, or are trying to kill you or you them.

As for your last question, I'd prefer that, but that is too simple of an answer to a complex question. It takes millions of people to support one family (ie. create and sell clothes, food, housing, water, entertainment), whereas way back when one family could survive on their own and do fine. If the people I knew and cared about had the ability to help each other survive, then yes I'd like to live in a world with just us. There are some really good people in the world that I don't know and would like to know, probably, but there are many times more bad people. In a MMORPG, it's even worse. The likely-hood of running into a random person that gives a shit about you is close to nil. In modern MMO's, getting two people to even exchange words in-passing is almost nil as well. So like I said, what people do in a MMO doesn't matter, since the majority of people don't care, and those that claim to care, don't ever actually try to communicate with those outside of their little circle.

You just kicked yourself in the balls with that.  In reality, players on the other side of the map DOES effect you.  Different games offer different types of effect, but an example would be them grinding the same mob as you on the other side of the map, thus increasing their chance for loot.  This in turn changes the ecnonomy of the game slightly.  Another example would be some group decides to gank a good buddy of yours in another area, so YOU decide to run over there and help him.  This is totally situation and could not be as realistic as an AI implementation. 

That's the point, you would like to, but ultimately you can't.  Which is basically like saying:  Sure, I would love to play a single player game without a monthly fee that offers what MMOs can give me, but in actuality, it's not feasible.

You can't argue about good/bad people on the internet.  It's completely situational on the type of game you play, when you play, and HOW you play.  Maybe you're just angry because you keep remaking alts on WoW and leveling them up in the Badlands on weekends.

Lastly, if YOU cared about the MMO, then what people do in the MMO will matter, and you will care.  It doesn't mean you're going to care about the person, but what he does or what effect he has on the game as a whole.  These mini-interactions make up a huge system in which you have no choice but the co-operate with.  This is called the competitive scene, whether you decide to play a PvP based game, PvE based game, or a crafting based game.  Like I've stated before, MMOs only give you the illusion of choice.  But this illusion is enough to make people pay $15/mo.

Originally posted by Josher

Any MMO will HAVE TO do better than WOW for me to spend a dime.   The polish and presentation better be equivalent or I'll just feel like I'm wasting money.  MMOs are no longer a basement genre, so they can't get away with what they could back with EQ, DAOC or AO.  They can't do what Funcom did with AOC.  They can't pull a Darkfall or Vangaurd.  I don't stick around for what could be and I'm ALWAYS an early adopter.  If the beta isn't release worthy, it won't see my money.  I'm not so forgiving anymore.

Wow, touchy?

You are never, ever going to be playing a MMO again, are you? If the beta isn't release worthy? A beta is to test whether or not it is release worthy.

Originally posted by nate1980

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by FolbyOrb

You sound like someone who made up their mind before posting this thread what your conclusion would be. So what's the point of responding to your thread?

I suppose you don't go to the movie theatre to watch movies, because eventually the good ones will be on TV anyway.

If no one pays people for the work they do, why would they ever do the work? Think about it.

 

Would you go to the movies if the cinema charged every film viewer an additional £5 to "cover the cost" of the people running the cinema, even though you know that this should already be included in the original ticket price? Sure you could afford it but would it sit well with you knowing that the extra £5 is simply an extra fee being charged simply because they can and not because its warranted? Or how about being charged £5 to enter a pub on the pretence that it covers the cost of wear & tear on the pubs furniture?

I dont think this thread is neccessarily about whether the OP or anyone else can afford the cost because abviously a monthly fee isnt going to make anyone bankrupt. Its really more about whether the monthly fee is neccessary considering that other mmos dont charge extra (some have a one off fee and others are free) and also the quality of single player games (which often come with a multiplayer option) is often vastly superior to what we are seeing in most mmos. These P2P mmos dont really seem to offer much more than the other types of games in quality.

Very few mmos are actually made to a high standard and it has become common practice to release them in a heavily incomplete state and yet still charge a monthly fee while they finish making them. As the years go by people are beginning to accept this more and more. When an mmo releases these days with giant gaping holes in its content, huge amounts of bugs, missing features, extremely shoddy gameplay and badly thought out game mechanics (eg WAR) people just say things like "Oh well all mmos have problems at the start" and "This mmo has potential". Then several years later when the game STILL has loads of bugs and various other problems people say "Ah but no mmo is perfect. Mmos are always evolving" even though the actual game itself hasnt evolved at all and is essentially still the same game that it was on its release date. How does a static unchangeable gameworld that provides the exact same gaming experience to every individual player evolve anyway? The answer is that it doesnt. The devs might add new monster spawns, new zones and starter areas, nerf classes etc but this isnt "evolving".......this is called "making a computer game". Its the same process the game goes through before it gets released except that with mmos the process continues while people pay for it. The devs are making the game up until the release date. The only difference in this process is that after the release date the servers are opened to the public and the devs get paid extra money every month to continue making the game.

However Guildwars is a great example of the efforts of a fair company. They dont charge people for the privelege of taking part in the "evolving creation process" of their game. They just charged a straight fixed fee like any other computer game and continued to maintain, fix and tweak it just like any decent games company should do. Then as they work on extra expansions they charge for them seperately as individual products while at the same time still continueing to work on their original game. I dont hear about them going bankrupt or not being able to pay their staff. I really dont think that the wages for the staff of a P2P mmo come anywhere near the amount of money they rake in each month from subscription fees. The work they do is certainly skilled work but their costs arent THAT high.

WoW has 11 million subscribers each at roughly £10 a month. You dont seriously think they need this money to cover their costs do you? Pay them for the work they do? Sure......but these companies are totally taking the piss and its becoming common practice which I dont think is right at all.

 

Neonwire, you and I come from different countries, but our thinking process is exactly the same. Some people call us jaded, while others might say we've seen the light, had the veil lifted, snapped out of it, or some other cliche phrase that refers to us not being gullible anymore. I stand by and agree with everything you've said so far. Kudos to you for explaining things better than I can.

As for the rest of the posters here. If I haven't personally responded to your thread, it's not because I didn't read it. I've read every post in this thread so far. I haven't responded to those that repeat what others have said, because I've replied to every point at least once. So you can read the whole thread if you want, to get all my replies, otherwise thanks for keeping the conversation going.

I realized I got off topic without even knowing it, because the two things are related it seems. But Neonwire is right. The thread is about what makes MMO's worth $15/mo, when other games do similar or better for free. The answer it seems is nothing. MMO's aren't worth $15/mo, they just are because people are sheep and will pay it. There are many justifications as to why people pay the subscription fee and no one can argue those, because it is a cheap form of entertainment and fun is subjective. But in the end, whether you admit it or not, the MMORPG you're playing isn't giving you anything that you couldn't get for free elsewhere. The only exceptions are those MMORPG's that offer complete freedom, which most people call sandbox games, even though not all sandbox games has complete freedom.

I salute you for starting up a very good thread. It has given me plenty of food for thought.......as you can tell from my long rambling rants.

Basicly the responses that defend the monthly fee of mmos from other people in this thread boil down to this.......

1. Its fun

2. Mmos cost more to run

3. I can afford it

4. I am used to it and so is the rest of the herd

Obviously something being fun is not an excuse for charging extra money. A monthly fee should be charged in relation to any extra work or effort involved. I personally find mmos today to be extremely boring and limited (WAR is at the top of my list in that regard at the moment). Does that mean I can pay a smaller monthly fee than everyone else because my enjoyment levels arent as high as other people who are easier to please?

Mmos do also cost more to run......but they definately dont cost as much as people seem to think. These mmos rake in HUGE amounts of money every month which MASSIVELY exceeds their costs. Even WAR which is a pretty terrible game must rake in roughly half a million pounds each month. Obviously server upkeep costs, wages and additional costs cant possibly come anywhere near that much each month. Effectively these P2P mmos are getting profit which is equivelent to reselling the same game constantly for years. Even the worst mmo ever made in history will make more money than the best single player game ever made. A P2P monthly fee doesnt encourage gaming companies to make better games. It does the complete opposite because they know that they will make a massive profit even if the game is crap and they also know that they dont even have to finish making the game because people will continue to pay for it no matter what state its in. They know that the standards people expect are now extremely low. In other words they know their target audience are all suckers which are now addicted to online gaming. They will give them money for anything that works regardless of its quality.

They also know that people can afford it. I can afford it too. However while so many people are gladly handing over their cash every month to these companies regardless of the state of the product, the quality of these mmos is going to continue to be extremely low. This really pisses me off because I want to play a really good mmo and yet for years there havent been any that meet my standards. Instead we keep seeing extremely poor games coming out that satisfy the easy to please masses but do nothing for anyone with half a brain.

People have become used to all of this. Now it has become standard practice to charge extra money each month for games that really arent very good. The enjoyment factor is increased due to the fact that people can talk to each other. Human interaction is being relied on as a source of entertainment in place of good gameplay. People arent paying extra money because the games are good. They are paying extra money because they enjoy socialising. Again the games companies know this. It doesnt matter if the mmos themselves are bad because people will feel drawn to them for social reasons. This happens in work environments too. Even the worst jobs in the world can be made bearable if you have good people around you to share the strain of it all. This is what is happening with mmos as well. Most of them are terrible games and yet people are able to enjoy them because of the human interaction.......remove the chat channels and people will see how awful these mmos actually are.

Originally posted by Mackerni

Originally posted by Josher

Any MMO will HAVE TO do better than WOW for me to spend a dime.   The polish and presentation better be equivalent or I'll just feel like I'm wasting money.  MMOs are no longer a basement genre, so they can't get away with what they could back with EQ, DAOC or AO.  They can't do what Funcom did with AOC.  They can't pull a Darkfall or Vangaurd.  I don't stick around for what could be and I'm ALWAYS an early adopter.  If the beta isn't release worthy, it won't see my money.  I'm not so forgiving anymore.

Wow, touchy?

You are never, ever going to be playing a MMO again, are you? If the beta isn't release worthy? A beta is to test whether or not it is release worthy.

So basicly what you are saying is that because his standards are high and he only wants to pay money for decent mmos, he will never end up playing any mmos because they are all low quality products. Yeah that sounds about right to me. I take my hat off to the guy for being sensible, sticking to his principles and refusing to give money to people that dont deserve it. Why should he pay money for unfinished badly made products anyway?

All he is saying is that mmos should be good games when they are released, not half finished with shit loads of bugs, missing features and badly implemented game mechanics. We shouldnt have to wait for years after they have released to become decent.

Actually when I now see a release date for an mmo I know that it isnt really the release date. Its just the date where the games company starts taking peoples money to play test its product. Its always at least an extra year or two until the game actually reaches its REAL release date where it is a game worth paying money for.

Boobies?

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out why so many people play WoW. There are tons of free or micro games out there that are so much better.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by FolbyOrb

You sound like someone who made up their mind before posting this thread what your conclusion would be. So what's the point of responding to your thread?

I suppose you don't go to the movie theatre to watch movies, because eventually the good ones will be on TV anyway.

If no one pays people for the work they do, why would they ever do the work? Think about it.

 

Would you go to the movies if the cinema charged every film viewer an additional £5 to "cover the cost" of the people running the cinema, even though you know that this should already be included in the original ticket price? Sure you could afford it but would it sit well with you knowing that the extra £5 is simply an extra fee being charged simply because they can and not because its warranted? Or how about being charged £5 to enter a pub on the pretence that it covers the cost of wear & tear on the pubs furniture?

I dont think this thread is neccessarily about whether the OP or anyone else can afford the cost because abviously a monthly fee isnt going to make anyone bankrupt. Its really more about whether the monthly fee is neccessary considering that other mmos dont charge extra (some have a one off fee and others are free) and also the quality of single player games (which often come with a multiplayer option) is often vastly superior to what we are seeing in most mmos. These P2P mmos dont really seem to offer much more than the other types of games in quality.

Very few mmos are actually made to a high standard and it has become common practice to release them in a heavily incomplete state and yet still charge a monthly fee while they finish making them. As the years go by people are beginning to accept this more and more. When an mmo releases these days with giant gaping holes in its content, huge amounts of bugs, missing features, extremely shoddy gameplay and badly thought out game mechanics (eg WAR) people just say things like "Oh well all mmos have problems at the start" and "This mmo has potential". Then several years later when the game STILL has loads of bugs and various other problems people say "Ah but no mmo is perfect. Mmos are always evolving" even though the actual game itself hasnt evolved at all and is essentially still the same game that it was on its release date. How does a static unchangeable gameworld that provides the exact same gaming experience to every individual player evolve anyway? The answer is that it doesnt. The devs might add new monster spawns, new zones and starter areas, nerf classes etc but this isnt "evolving".......this is called "making a computer game". Its the same process the game goes through before it gets released except that with mmos the process continues while people pay for it. The devs are making the game up until the release date. The only difference in this process is that after the release date the servers are opened to the public and the devs get paid extra money every month to continue making the game.

However Guildwars is a great example of the efforts of a fair company. They dont charge people for the privelege of taking part in the "evolving creation process" of their game. They just charged a straight fixed fee like any other computer game and continued to maintain, fix and tweak it just like any decent games company should do. Then as they work on extra expansions they charge for them seperately as individual products while at the same time still continueing to work on their original game. I dont hear about them going bankrupt or not being able to pay their staff. I really dont think that the wages for the staff of a P2P mmo come anywhere near the amount of money they rake in each month from subscription fees. The work they do is certainly skilled work but their costs arent THAT high.

WoW has 11 million subscribers each at roughly £10 a month. You dont seriously think they need this money to cover their costs do you? Pay them for the work they do? Sure......but these companies are totally taking the piss and its becoming common practice which I dont think is right at all.

Would I go to the theater if I thought they asked me to pay unjustified, additional charges? No.  If I felt they were justified? Probably.

Considering the topic of discussion, I take it you and the OP feel the $15 per month charge is unjustified.

If the theater told me that if I came back next month to see the movie at their theater they would show additional footage that would reveal more of the story, would I go back? I might, if I was interested.

I never implied that the thread was about what the OP could afford. I have no idea what he/she can afford.

Since you and the OP like to mention the "free" MMOs so much, would you care to explain, in detail, the differences between P2P MMOs and F2P MMOs. Afterall, "free" to play MMOs (also known as microtransaction) tend to take in more money per player per month than P2P MMOs. AFAIK.

The state MMOs are released in has nothing to do with whether or not they are worth $15 a month or not. MMO crappy and buggy at realease worth $15 a month? Probably not until they get it fixed. MMO polished and mostly bug free a year after release worth $15 a month? Probably.

Single player game that runs like a Power Point on the many uses of Dog Crap worth $50. No. Same single player game patched to working state later worth $29.99? Maybe if it offers more than a weekend's worth of gameplay.

Saying Guild Wars is an MMORPG is akin to saying Diablo II is an MMORPG.

You're argument about evolution of a game is semantics. I'm not interested in arguing semantics.

I will only say this as far as evolution goes. I've joined guilds in MMOs where most of the people in the guild are about the same level. Say level 40 in a game that has a level cap of 70. There might be 20 to 30 members in that range. Over time, we all reach level 70 and then begin the end game content. If that's not evolving, I don't know what is. And that has nothing to do with the developers making a computer game, friend. That right there is worth about $5 of my $15 a month. Because I don't know of one single player game that can give me that experience. Maybe you or the OP can offer up a suggestion.

Your notion of "making a computer game" by adding to it makes no sense, either. So why do single player games make me pay for the expansions that are just "making a computer game?" Aren't those just new zones, new monsters, nerfs to overpowered stuff? God damn it, you're right! The expansions should be free!

Well, wait. If adding stuff to the game, such as zones, and monsters, and such should be free, because "that's just making a computer game," then why the hell are they charging me for the thing in the first place? I mean, they only "made a computer game!" What the hell, right? It should be free.

See what I did there?

How convenient that you would choose World of Warcraft, the most ridiculously successful MMO of all time to say, "Oh, I think they're making enough money, don't you?" Very brave of you.

Since I've already accounted for five dollars of my fifteen dollars a month, I'll offer up some of the reasons for the other ten.

1. I don't know of any single player games where I can go into a trade channel and work out a trade for some item I need or some item I want to sell.

2. In a single player game that has multi player, the server is owned by some individual. My gameplay is decided by that individual. Maybe I play the same map over and over and over and over again and again and again until I rip my eyes out. In an MMO, where the entire world is available to me, I can go wherever and do whatever I want.

3. I don't know of any single player games that have events. Holiday or otherwise.

4. I don't know of any single player or F2P games that allow me to sit in town with my "I got it first" item and show it off.

5. Gordan Freeman is Gordan Freeman. My rogue is different from my shaman who is different from my hunter who is different from other faction rogue who is different from my disciple who is different from my force blader...etc.

Each of those is prolly worth $2 each. And I haven't even mentioned arenas or Keep Sieges or...

Does anyone really need a pole to tell them if a game is worth 50 cents a day or not. It either is or isnt.

I would say the main thing that is worth the $15/month is the constant stability and patching of the client, and how frequently the game content is updated for free.

If you have to pay for every little thing released, and on top of that the client/server is very unstable, it isn't worth the mula

And a million other personal preferences, but those are pretty global if you ask me.

When a thread become this long, with some of the poster writing a whole novel of a reply then i just can't sit down and read it all. So my opologies if this has already been mentioned over and over again.

What's worth $15 a month for me is

1. Anti Cheat/Bot/Gold Spammer messures that is constantly monitored/updated and regulated by a live team

2. Live server support in case servers become unstable or shut down unexpectedly

3. free content updates

4. live Ingame issue support in case my phat lewt dissapears or i have any issues at all while playing

5. Constant bug ironing and balance fixes that even polished games needs. There are so many variables that it is impossible to 100% fix through betas, unless you want to keep a game in a 4 year long beta in which case it will be graphically obsolete upon release.

6. The game just have to be extremely entertaining for me to want to sit down and play anywhere between 4-8 hours in one sitting and still wish i could spend another 24 hours doing so. Assuming my body could take it. That to me is worth 15$ a month. It would even be worth $25 a month. The problem is you have to go back 10 years when EQ and DaoC were new and fresh where i could justify paying that much money. Todays MMO are crap hardly worth the BoX price they are sold on