Originally posted by happytklz

FUN objects in a GAME!!!???  For SHAME!!!  

I demand utter seriousness and consistency from my made-up-world, by Zeus!! 

Next thing you know OTHER game companies may focus on playability and fun, and then where will we be? 

Sounds like we would be in a world with so many fun games to play we would have to invent some sort of time machine to have time to play them all.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

In another thread I've proven the Britney Spears analogy with Wow fails....

Drawing out the khaki marker again.

....Simply because World of Warcraft was the FIRST mmorpg that was such a gigantic commercial succes. The King of its MMO generation in generating that massive amounts of supporters/players in the western society.

Elvis is considered the King of Rock 'n Roll because of this.

The Beatles are considered the Kings of 60's Pop Music.

Being called the king of anything doesn't really matter.  I could mention Budweiser, the "King of Beers", even though one could easily compile a list of other beers being just as good (or even better) without making a claim to such a title.

If anything, I find such titles pretentious; besides, the monarchy hasn't exactly been a model for good behaviour or even enlightened rule, but it doesn't really matter to this discussion.

Wow = the equivalent of 30.000.000 sold copies in the western world each year (5.000.000 X 6 bi-monthly subscriptions).

That's by far the MOST succesful single game of the last 30 years in the COMPLETE video game industry. No other game "sells" the equivalent of 30.000.000 copies in the western world EACH year.

Unlike other posters on this forum, I'm not going to dispute any figure you're posting regarding the number of subscribers this game has.  Because, ultimately, that is of no importance. WoW outsells every MMO out there, that much is known and impossible to dispute; the closest was far distant, and it was Runescape, which you can play for free.

Britney Spears is just another commercial singer who doesn't have this impact in only one branche of the pop music.

I agree with your assessment of Britney's career, but the traditional assumption is that she retains some form of popularity. However, I think that in her case, much of the criticism levelled at her regards her personal antics (because artistically she's impossible to distinguish from any other starlet with a passable voice, blond hair and D cups). It never ceases to amaze me that some so-called music connoisseurs tend to forgive Amy Winehouse for equally (or worse) reprehensible behaviour, on the grounds that her songs have artistic merit, as though her art couldn't be separated from personal attitude, and that therefore she ought to be forgiven in the name of art. 

Anyway, it doesn't have to be Britney; it can be any popular artist with an awful critical reputation, regardless of their personal life -- make it Celine Dion or Madonna if you want.  The name doesn't really matter, as long as that singer sells while being derided by critics.

---

Ignoring these facts and just speak of "pffff just another million" is being based on pure subjective personal reasons which do not bring any contribution to the explanation of that success... and so ... are IRRELEVANT. Certainly not if you haven't experienced the game at all. No Raid expreience, No BG's experience, etc.

Ah, so we're back to that; I'll never be more than "Mr. Level 46" to you, eh?  Well, that also is irrelevant here.  The question has moved beyond that a while ago.  Now it is: Does "popular" mean "good"?  Your answer is apparently yes; mine is no.  Could be about Britney, McDonald's, WoW, the Prime Minister of Japan, cheesecake, whatever.

Stating "some" like it and "some" not,... is stretching the truth in an extremely odd way because that "some" stands for the single most "sold" video game ever for the last 30 years. And by sold it is clearly stated "value in $$" in our western cultural society.

You can't start pretending that the "some" who don't like WoW are actually imaginary.  I'm real allright, as are a few of the negative posters in this thread, and as have been gamers I've met in previous games who would post on those game forums how they hated WoW.  Maybe we're a minority -- so what?  Does it prevent you from sleeping at night to know that some people don't like WoW? Why must the victory be complete?

I'm pretty sure you're gloating about Warhammer closing 2/3 of its servers, for reasons that have nothing to do with Warhammer (I stopped playing that game a long time ago, so I don't really care).

And again, it's just that tyranny of the majority rearing its ugly head again every time you post about this.

 If that equivalent of 1 billion dollars yearly revenu means ... you can deny it by having a banner of 'lies just plain lies", It shows indeed that as a last resort Wow haters refer to ...the Goldwin law (without knowing of course) and so just loose the discussion.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a quote by Mark Twain, who attributed it to the British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli (without corroboration, so it's assumed it's a Twain original).  The point being that you can make statistics say anything. I'm pretty sure you have encountered opinion polls where the question (or the choice of answers) was so twisted as to allow only one reasonable result?

How amazing also that you should invoke Godwin to claim a win on a technicality, instead of bothering to address the question.  "You lost! You lost! Godwin said you lost!" Do you know how childish that sounds?

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Vetarnias

However, we get the more apt comparisons to McDonald's or Britney Spears, and they are just ridiculed.  Wasn't it to be expected that someone would bring out the Godwin card sooner or later, when every suitable point comparison had been dismissed and derided by the WoW fanboys? 

But McDonald's is a valid example.  Any nutritionist will tell you that it's schlock (unless you go for the salad cop-outs, but how many McD's patrons actually do that?), yet the McDonald's-WoW comparison has been ruled out a priori by the fanboys.  The salient point, however, needs to be addressed: "Popular" does not mean "good", and popularity does not make a "bad" product "good" for no other reason than because it is popular.  This is tyranny of the majority at its basest -- "50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong".  The fact that there are 50 million of them is no guarantee that they are right -- I'm guessing that this was the point of the Hitler signature.  However, I don't subscribe to the opposing elitist view that says Elvis must be bad because 50 million fans love him.

 

The McDonalds and Britney Spears analogy are fundementally flawed.

Answer this: 

If wow = mcdonalds then what does [for exmample] Conan = ??? or any other mmo?

Fine dining?  Steak dinner?  Moms home cooking? Why isn't every other mmo compared to a fast food chain since they are all fundamentally the same?  What makes them the nutritional sound meal of awesomeness?

Gaute Godager said steak.  I once said elsewhere I'd compare AoC more to Red Lobster -- fast food that pretends it is somehow above that.  At least WoW doesn't claim to be something it isn't; still doesn't excuse what it is, though.

Would you compare tic-tac-toe to grand theft auto and think that was a valid comparison?  Both are games just like the above is both about food.

At least tic-tac-toe doesn't set off moral red flags in my head, like GTA does.

You never see the comparison treated between similar products like burger king, because as "bad" as mcdonalds is, your nutritionist would tell you BK is far worse.  Now the subject is about hamburgers as if it relates to video games.   See how unrelated that is?

I have no idea about BK versus McD.  But the subject is about taste -- McDonald's isn't bad, but you don't need Morgan Spurlock to tell you that you shouldn't build your diet around it, and it's the general idea that they've sold I don't know how many gazillions of burgers that really matters.

I will refrain from saying WoW is in bad taste, although those pop-culture references in the game nearly tip it over.

Maybe just because 2 items share one similar feature they don't make representative comparisons to each other.

 

Why not just make any analogy that has the mildest similarities and pretend it has merit on a discussion of video games.   Why not call wow cancer since so many people die from that. 

 

People only use these types of analogies to associate wow to something that has a negative stigma in todays society and then act as if that stigma applies equally to wow.  Mcdonald is tagged with obesity and unhealthy life styles.  Briteny for her crazy dramatic blowups or people thinking she is anything more than an ENTERTAINER aimed at teenagers.  It is always some comparison to something in society that has a negative aspect associated with it, like hitler.

For the purpose of the analogy to be effective, the comparison point HAS to be negative.  Otherwise it doesn't work, for the purpose is to demonstrate that something can be popular while being bad.  Hitler being the extreme example, unless someone would like to claim that anything good came out of him.

You never see anyone compare wow to google, ipods or something else that has the same level of popularity in their respective fields, but have a cool image associated with it.  It really is just plain nonsense to make such comparisons. 

For the record, Google's near-monopoly in the search-engine market is worrisome, and I've always been wary of anything that came out of Apple. Just saying.

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by Vetarnias 

So there is no universal standard in the case of a game by which to judge it -- no, not even popularity, or critical reception.

 

I disagree.

There are plenty of examples in history of things that have been chosen as "best" by popular vote. The American system of belief is dependent almost totally on the opinion of the majority. And in a way, that's a problem, and not a new one either.  Tocqueville wrote about that in the 1830's when he visited the United States. We (among many other countries) even select our President by it, which is arguably one of the most important decisions to be made. Then what do we make of Hayes vs. Tilden, or Bush vs. Gore?  Loser gets more votes, but the other guy becomes President. (And I'm coming from a country where 38% of the votes or so will get you an ironclad majority government, so we're subjected to that all the time.)

People have an unconscious obsession with finding the very best, by whatever definition. When there is no objective way to decide, we revert to opinion. Since individually our opinions are irrelevant to each other, a statistical analysis is used. It could be argued that the statistics are skewed since WoW has reached a "critical mass" (which is, that many of the people playing it are only playing it because it is popular) but it's the best and only method we have to decide what is "best," by any definition. The only critical mass I'm willing to consider, as far as a game is concerned, is the one that is required for a game to be fully functional, e.g. how many people are needed for the economy, RvR, etc. to work. Since the majority like playing WoW over other games, it's statistically the one most likely to be enjoyable to any one specific person, and therefore the "best." If popularity were the only measurement of quality, then it would be so.  But it's essentially meaningless, like who wins American Idol -- such as that guy I remember reading about a few years ago, who advanced to the finals (or semifinals, not sure) because he was a soldier at the time of the Iraq war.  Nothing to do with his voice -- he was reportedly mediocre -- and everything to do with his uniform.  Popularity means absolutely nothing because it is affected by so many other factors; is a blockbuster film better than an indie film that only played in the arthouse circuit?  That's really what we're talking about here.

It's nice to have an actual debate about this though, and see some real, intelligent responses instead of the usual "LOL PHAIL" garbage we see around here.

WoW being original, and about fighting the evil within? Fanbois even you are not that deluded. Warcraft copied WH IP and there's no arguing that. Damn, original Warhammer FRP had a campaign called The Enemy Within which i've played when i was a kid... It was about how easily corrupted humans were by evil forces like Skaven and Chaos.It took players on an epic journey through the Old World.

So saying that WoW is about fighting evil within and other bullshite is so funny...

It's about grinding gear without which you're nothing, easy quests and raids a gaming equivalent of McDonald's. Kids and trailer park people entertainment...

it is really amazing.  i never knew that playing a videogame put a person in a category of maturity in comparison of a person playing another 'video game'. so basiclly under this way of thinking me and people i know in real life who play this game just because we might 'like  it' are without a doubt bad, horrible people to you.

i have stopped playing wow many times from complete bordom. big surprise huh? also i find alot of the people i encounter to be totally annoying and rude...even childish. do u think for a second that makes everyone playing a child just because its not hard to find brats?

there are somany things i am unhappy about with wow that its foolish to start. because its just a game. none of them will ever be perfect. and from what ive looked at i cant find any better mmo for me and my gf and others.

i also will not play a mmo with only humans. i find that plain and not worth paying a sub for. im drawn to dark elfs and i might add Wow has the most suited dark elves for myself that ive come across in any video game. moon worship. druids. its away from the normal ' sacrafice to the dark goddes' type dark elf setting. so unfortuantly wow has that hold on me. ive loved Night elves for years since Wc3 and i only started playing Wow because of them. so here is one example of a person who isnt playing because its popular or because i thinks it perfect because i obviously dont. i dont even care for raiding not because i find the killing boring(thats the fun part) but becaue i hate hearing people in vent ramble on as if anyone really gives a %$#@ about what they are saying.

and im not trying to fight with the wow haters. just asking why its neccesary to generalize over something as trivial as a video game. also. if  wow is so bad then what other fantasy setting mmo with dark elves do any of you suggest me try? and nothing older than wow i might add. ( i tried - eq2 - vangaurd - war-)

be an adult please and if u reply to this try to actually suggest something maybe.

Originally posted by Omyicanfly

I saw a screenshot recently of something that looked like a motorcycle...

please tell me that's not a new kind of mount???

 

Yes.  Stupiest thing I've ever seen.  But I'm more of a fan of high fantasy, not the hodgepodge mess that has become Wow (ie. Blizzard has borrowed from about every fantasy/sci-fi IP out there).

Originally posted by Isaralas

Originally posted by Evasia

Originally posted by Omyicanfly

I saw a screenshot recently of something that looked like a motorcycle...

please tell me that's not a new kind of mount???

 

 

They implement what the 11millions kids wants, its satisfying the customer:P

 

Calling the Warcraft playerbase kids is real mature right?

I'm sure it statistically correct thought.  Based on my 3 years of playing (on and off) the vast majority of players fall in to two categories:  they are kids or they act like kids.

My reaching this conclusion has nothing to do with my level of maturity.  It is what it is.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

World of Warcraft has its own unique place in the Fantasy Lore setting just like any other Fantasy IP.

 

Please point out one single thing that makes the World of Warcraft IP unique from other fantasy IPs.

One thing...

Originally posted by Omyicanfly

I saw a screenshot recently of something that looked like a motorcycle...

please tell me that's not a new kind of mount???

 

This is why I hate Gnomes, Im starting up WoW again because I miss my family on there. I always seem to come back to this game, even though there are Parts I dislike about the game.  But I wish there was a way to kill off all the gnomes in this game I think Azeroth would be a better place without gnomes.

Originally posted by Thradar

Originally posted by Zorndorf

World of Warcraft has its own unique place in the Fantasy Lore setting just like any other Fantasy IP.

 

Please point out one single thing that makes the World of Warcraft IP unique from other fantasy IPs.

One thing...

Fantasy motorcycles...

Originally posted by chinchilla32

Motorbikes, helicopters, aeroplanes and submarines.

Amazing what greed will do to a game company.

um WoW's genre is Fantasy/Steampunk so how the hell does greed come in to play. It fits perfectly into the lore.

 I played WoW for quite sometime and enjoyed my stay there,well at least to start with,the thing that got me wasnt the endless gear grind or the cartoon graphics or indeed the follow the yellow brick road gameplay.

What got me was the community,it got worse and worse and for me at least if the community is lacking than so is the mmo,near the end of my stay I could not believe how bad it got and was quite happy to leave...I guess to the op yes it did turn out to be a freakshow.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

 

It is always nice to see that a title like :

Is WoW like some kind of freak show MMO now?

always brings in  ... the same boring Wow hating trolls, like flies to shit vomit.

Losing such a fine leitmotif would be a shame.

And always the same boring laughable arguments which have nothing to do with a ... good game.

I'm getting the distinct impression that you don't even bother to read them, once you've figured out where they fit in the grand "with us or against us" scheme of things.

Perhaps most of these guys just deserve products like DF, WAR, AoC, TR, Hellgate,....

At least we're being offered alternatives.  And for one am willing to seriously consider them.  If they fail, let it be on their own merit (or lack thereof), not because their name doesn't happen to be World of Warcraft.

And now I see you've been dissing EVE Online, which IS successful.  Your grounds for doing so? "Oh, but you can't walk out of your cockpit."  Nothing more.  Is there any MMO that you would allow to co-exist with WoW, or must they all be stamped out to satisfy the WoW Moloch and its high priests such as yourself?

But anyway, since you've been discussing that as well in The Pub (you know, where you said the WoW haters dwelt), I think I'll post a reply over there too.

----

To the one that still believes the 15 year old made up lie that Warcraft just copied the WH ttuniverse....

First read some novels on Warcraft Lore before spreading lies.(70.000 pages to read to make it up).

A pity that Mythic fucked up with War Lore. I can't look at my painted miniatures anymore, without thinking of the clunky mess Mark Jacobs made of it. (same with Mark of Chaos btw).

 

Originally posted by Zorndorf

 

It is always nice to see that a title like :

Is WoW like some kind of freak show MMO now?

always brings in  ... the same boring Wow hating trolls, like flies to shit.

And always the same boring laughable arguments which have nothing to do with a ... good game.

Perhaps most of these guys just deserve products like DF, WAR, AoC, TR, Hellgate,....

----

To the one that still believes the 15 year old made up lie that Warcraft just copied the WH ttuniverse....

First read some novels on Warcraft Lore before spreading lies.(70.000 pages to read to make it up).

A pity that Mythic fucked up with War Lore. I can't look at my painted miniatures anymore, without thinking of the clunky mess Mark Jacobs made of it. (same with Mark of Chaos btw).

 

And like a big fly to a steaming pile of shit, Zorndorf rallies to protect the oh so precious game he adores :D

Like 3 topics on frontpage of MMORPG.com are replies of Zorndorf in defense to WoW. lol

But before you start your usual rant, I'm sure you're informed that Warcraft lore was a project created after things went sour between Blizzard and Games Workshop on a deal to make a game on Warhammer lore....right? :P

It's not a copycat per se, but you can't deny that it did not deviate far from the "original" lore Blizzard intended for their games...

So in fact Warhammer DID come before Warcraft no matter what you may believe. Success tho is another issue :D

You may like your WoW but WAR etc. ain't bad. Maybe not for you but I know several people who quit WoW for WAR and never came back.

To each his own right?

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by zspawn

Originally posted by Zorndorf

 

It is always nice to see that a title like :

Is WoW like some kind of freak show MMO now?

always brings in  ... the same boring Wow hating trolls, like flies to shit.

And always the same boring laughable arguments which have nothing to do with a ... good game.

Perhaps most of these guys just deserve products like DF, WAR, AoC, TR, Hellgate,....

----

To the one that still believes the 15 year old made up lie that Warcraft just copied the WH ttuniverse....

First read some novels on Warcraft Lore before spreading lies.(70.000 pages to read to make it up).

A pity that Mythic fucked up with War Lore. I can't look at my painted miniatures anymore, without thinking of the clunky mess Mark Jacobs made of it. (same with Mark of Chaos btw).

 

 

And like a big fly to a steaming pile of shit, Zorndorf rallies to protect the oh so precious game he adores :D

Like 3 topics on frontpage of MMORPG.com are replies of Zorndorf in defense to WoW. lol

But before you start your usual rant, I'm sure you're informed that Warcraft lore was a project created after things went sour between Blizzard and Games Workshop on a deal to make a game on Warhammer lore....right? :P

It's not a copycat per se, but you can't deny that it did not deviate far from the "original" lore Blizzard intended for their games...

So in fact Warhammer DID come before Warcraft no matter what you may believe. Success tho is another issue :D

You may like your WoW but WAR etc. ain't bad. Maybe not for you but I know several people who quit WoW for WAR and never came back.

To each his own right?

 

Wrong about the blue. Dead simply wrong. A myth. If you knew anything about pre Blizzard and early Blizzard projects you wouldn't say this.

All I know is, Warhammer came first.  WoW was second and, according to some book I read through Google Books, was directly inspired by the Warhammer lore.

I will just say, however, that regardless of who came first and how much can be considered legitimate appropriation, Warhammer respects its own setting.  World of Warcraft, with all its Haris Piltons, doesn't.  It regards itself as one huge joke and doesn't really deserve to be taken seriously.

Ultimately, it just reminds me of an old lawsuit I used to hear about, some novelist suing the producers of Falcon Crest for allegedly plagiarizing her idea of a family saga set in a vineyard.  Falcon Crest won.  How?  By demonstrating how everyone had been using the same cliches for years -- Falcon Crest, the novelist's book, and previous examples even.  In other words, they demonstrated that what they had been doing was routine crap just to show they could have copied someone else's routine crap by accident, because everybody was writing routine crap based on the same old formulas.

Just shows that fantasy settings can pretty much be traced back to Tolkien, and that most of them are, well, routine crap.

>>>> Source and reference please. You won't find anything official on that. Not from GW, not from Blizzard.

And besides we are talking computer games here.

You may like WAR, but as seen by the 75% closing servers (which were FULL and LOCKED at the end of September), it seems you are not followed by most fellows.

The problem is ... a game needs to better than "ain't bad".

A new mmorpg needs to be EXCELLENT and a push further UP compared to WotLK.  What you guys just do NOT realise is that a" new world" to play in ... is NOT a basis for a game.

And you're blaming EVE for not allowing you to step outside the cockpit... No matter what the strengths of that game are.  WoW is raising the bar, true.  But if you're intent on making a case of how much money one needs to put into a game to compete with WoW, I say stop this damn madness now.  I want to be able to look around and find quasi-indie and niche MMO's out there that don't sell their soul to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which is what a game with WoW's price tag would have to do in order to be financially successful.  That's why part of me hopes that PotBS and Darkfall, made on small budgets with skeleton crews, will be successful after all.  And that's why another part of me couldn't care less about your damn flying mounts and helicopters, because it's the kind of POINTLESS eye candy that drives up the necessary budget for a game.  If you want to turn such trivialities into key elements of game design that other games have to include just to compete with WoW (with you presumably declaring them failures anyway), I have no other choice but to object. 

Yours is the mentality that gave us the plotless Hollywood blockbuster, all special effects and zero originality, with a brain-dead story to boot.  And it's dangerous.  But it's just more of the same tyranny-of-the-majority claptrap I've come to expect from you.

The game has to be BETTER than 'ain't bad". Because no one needs a 'ain't bad" copy of something we already have. Oh yes to play a bit and try it for a few sessions, but it "ain"t working that way.

Any opinion is valid. But everyone agrees War did NOT walk like the way that Paul guy talked.

And why didn't it?  Barnett and Jacobs are quite low in the credibility department these days. But the real irony is that I remember reading all too often how WAR did not look enough like Dark Age of Camelot... and too much like WoW.

In other words, too much like your beloved WoW to attract and keep people. That was the big mistake Mystic made.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Vetarnias

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Wrong about the blue. Dead simply wrong. A myth. If you knew anything about pre Blizzard and early Blizzard projects you wouldn't say this.

All I know is, Warhammer came first.  WoW was second and, according to some book I read through Google Books, was directly inspired by the Warhammer lore.

I will just say, however, that regardless of who came first and how much can be considered legitimate appropriation, Warhammer respects its own setting.  World of Warcraft, with all its Haris Piltons, doesn't.  It regards itself as one huge joke and doesn't really deserve to be taken seriously.

Ultimately, it just reminds me of an old lawsuit I used to hear about, some novelist suing the producers of Falcon Crest for allegedly plagiarizing her idea of a family saga set in a vineyard.  Falcon Crest won.  How?  By demonstrating how everyone had been using the same cliches for years -- Falcon Crest, the novelist's book, and previous examples even.  In other words, they demonstrated that what they had been doing was routine crap just to show they could have copied someone else's routine crap by accident, because everybody was writing routine crap based on the same old formulas.

Just shows that fantasy settings can pretty much be traced back to Tolkien, and that most of them are, well, routine crap.

>>>> Source and reference please. You won't find anything official on that. Not from GW, not from Blizzard.

And besides we are talking computer games here.

You may like WAR, but as seen by the 75% closing servers (which were FULL and LOCKED at the end of September), it seems you are not followed by most fellows.

The problem is ... a game needs to better than "ain't bad".

A new mmorpg needs to be EXCELLENT and a push further UP compared to WotLK.  What you guys just do NOT realise is that a" new world" to play in ... is NOT a basis for a game.

And you're blaming EVE for not allowing you to step outside the cockpit... No matter what the strengths of that game are.  WoW is raising the bar, true.  But if you're intent on making a case of how much money one needs to put into a game to compete with WoW, I say stop this damn madness now.  I want to be able to look around and find quasi-indie and niche MMO's out there that don't sell their soul to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which is what a game with WoW's price tag would have to do in order to be financially successful.  That's why part of me hopes that PotBS and Darkfall, made on small budgets with skeleton crews, will be successful after all.  And that's why another part of me couldn't care less about your damn flying mounts and helicopters, because it's the kind of POINTLESS eye candy that drives up the necessary budget for a game.  If you want to turn such trivialities into key elements of game design that other games have to include just to compete with WoW (with you presumably declaring them failures anyway), I have no other choice but to object. 

Yours is the mentality that gave us the plotless Hollywood blockbuster, all special effects and zero originality, with a brain-dead story to boot.  And it's dangerous.  But it's just more of the same tyranny-of-the-majority claptrap I've come to expect from you.

The game has to be BETTER than 'ain't bad". Because no one needs a 'ain't bad" copy of something we already have. Oh yes to play a bit and try it for a few sessions, but it "ain"t working that way.

Any opinion is valid. But everyone agrees War did NOT walk like the way that Paul guy talked.

And why didn't it?  Barnett and Jacobs are quite low in the credibility department these days. But the real irony is that I remember reading all too often how WAR did not look enough like Dark Age of Camelot... and too much like WoW.

In other words, too much like your beloved WoW to attract and keep people. That was the big mistake Mystic made.

 

And so with the last sentence ... we're back to square ONE, aren't we?
Actually, I was very explicit that it was what other people said of WAR.  I for one never played Dark Age of Camelot, so I can't comment on whether WAR was a travesty of that game, or anything else.  As for WAR itself, I stopped playing after a week (and up to level 8, I think, though I played on two servers and might have been higher on the other) because of performance issues, so while there are a few elements of WAR I can instinctively comment on (the pointlessness of the economy, or the problems with public quests). So I'm not exactly going to the bat for that game.  I don't particularly care for WAR, but I'm just happy it's out there to offer an alternative to WoW if anyone seeks it.

And also, when I played WAR (immediately after release), I had yet to play WoW.  So when I saw people write that it looked like WoW, I could not corroborate what they were saying.  It was only when I started playing WoW that I saw that those people were right.  Same cartoony art.  Same pointless economy.  Same overreliance on instancing. (WAR's public quests at least were a nice idea, if flawed in application).

You only played one lvl 46 character in Wow and you want the same credibility in analysing its "merits" against "raiding", PvP play, end game crafting, economy, ...

And I still wonder HOW in God's name. You have NO idea what Lake Wintergrasp is like, NO idea what the higher Battlegrounds are all about, NO idea of how important hi level crafting is for Raids, how much FUN it is to do achievements in secondary professions and how the game feels in its total end game concept...

Your famous lvl 78 friend who acted as an info source .... didn't even enter Lake Wintergrasp (seen on his amory).

Glad to know he's famous.  And by the way, we're chatting right now, and he's telling me that he indeed try Lake Wintergrasp.  In his words, "it was overwhelmingly unbalanced".  He thinks you might reach that conclusion because he doesn't have the Wintergrasp Victory achievement; that's because he never won it.

 Problem is ....War didn't even TOUCH the beginnings of Wow's concepts. But you wouldn't even know Mr lvl 46....

A focused PvP game with LESSER fluid controls and responsiveness, with LESSER massive battles 10 times a day...,with NO tank to tank battles, with NO destructable Keeps,  with NO options for Arena competitions, not even a duel option.

Ooops, but I am forgetting you didn't even see those things in Wow also and still want to trash it in about EVERY post you make.

First level up and do some of the end game, then come back and discuss.

Just to be told at every negative comment anyone might make: "11.5 million +1"? No thanks.

Your problem is that your source of info is NOT yourself in the end game of Wow. You actually believe the nonsense  Wow haters spread on mmorpg.com. So HOW would you even know War was anything but Wow in its end game....

I thought you had me down as a WoW hater... Now I'm just being fooled by them?

As I've said before, I'm not swallowing any of that "hardcore" claptrap about Darkfall.  All they want is a steady supply of sheep, and nothing else -- and if you're not in a large "hardcore" guild, there's no chance in hell you will achieve anything in that sort of game.  But WoW isn't my cup of tea.  I find the setting disappointing, not because it's standard but because it doesn't take itself seriously.

But it goes beyond that. You're forcing me to like this game, while playing whack-a-mole with every other game on the market right now. Conan, WAR, Darkfall, now EVE, you name 'em. This I find beyond annoying.

Originally posted by Zorndorf 

 Edit: That's why a lot of your arguments are strange to me... Helicopters and other flying mounts just for "the eye candy"???. You know it takes TRIPLE amount of resources to even make a FULL 3D "flying over "world than it takes a semi 3D/2D world with "blocking terrain" between the zones everywhere? The end game quests in WotLK are fully integrated with those flying mounts, they are designed to be played with flying mounts. Calling out such design decisions "trivial". Wow, so we could go back to Pac Man then. Because that one "ain't bad" either.

And just a comment on this, which you added while I was typing my previous reply.

That is precisely my point:  Adding flying mounts takes up so many resources -- just for such a feature -- that it dramatically increases the cost of an MMO if you're expecting every new one to have this feature.

In case you haven't noticed, there's this little thing called a recession right now.  Anything which drives up the cost of MMO's at this time is a bad thing to me, because it just means that less MMO's will be made if this level of sophistication is expected.

I have said elsewhere I was perfectly satisfied with graphics from 2004, which would have meant my 2007 computer would have been able to play them, unlike Conan or WAR (the first was choppy, and the second crashed all the time).

And if I may add: Games like Pac Man and Tetris endure for a reason, namely, good design.  Good design requires serviceable graphics at best, and don't need bells and whistles such as flying mounts.  Mount & Blade is another example made on a relatively small budget. And I could also mention Dwarf Fortress, which clearly has major points going for it despite its god-awful interface. Pac-Man and co. will still be played in 20 years?  WoW?  It's just eye candy.  The design -- the bone structure -- is barely adequate.

Things such as flying mounts will kill off the indies if they are seen as a necessity in every new game.  It will force every new publisher to aim for the lowest common denominator.  And I for one don't want that.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Vetarnias

I am not forcing you to love Wow.

Then why all the references to the magic figure of 11,500,000?  Just see this post of yours, for instance.

I am forcing you to stop spitting opinions about 95% of  gaming content you didn't even try.

If this is true, that I've seen only 5% of the game, ask yourself this: Why did Blizzard turn the lower levels into the most boring of journeys?  If I'm not having fun at every step of the way, why am I bothering to play at all?

You didn't do Raids, you didn't do BG's, you didn't do the new open world PvP, you didn't do end game crafting.

Raids = larger dungeons. BG's are just another instance.  Oh, I saw open world PvP, gank gank gank.  That's what it was.  In all its gratuitous and meaningless splendor.  I crafted my dose of inanities.  Endgame crafting just means the usual mad race for ingredients, and not even for profit I'd wager, if you want to take part in raids at all.

You don't even know what phasing is. Hell you only experienced one class to level 46. That's the prologue of a book.

Phasing is just a larger instance.  Meaningless once you step out of it.  The only meaningful thing is one that affects the entire server and all its players at one given time.

End game comments no one can make at lvl 46. So if that bothers you soo much, well stop posting without credibility.

And get rid of that silly banner "Lies all lies". Yep it is all a lie. Blizzard has its revenus coming from illegal Columbian Drug deals --- everyone knows that.

Perhaps reading less on mmorpg.com forums would help.

 

WoW has...

Dragons, Aliens, Ghosts, Zombies, Werewolves (Worgen), Undead, Magic, Reincarnation, Resurection, Water-Walking, Shape Shifting (druid/shaman), Magic Carpets, etc.,..

And, out of all of that, the things people look at to label the game as 'freak show' are 'motorcycles' and 'gyrocopters'?

Seriously? 

The Aliens/Draenei should've brought some bad ass space ship/futuristic mounts with them.  Instead... they have 'elephants', more or less.  Where is their advanced technology now?  I guess they gave it up to be totem slinging Shaman?