Originally posted by Rhoklaw

You say you want another great PvE game, so let me ask you this. What is wrong with the current ones? WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO are all great PvE games. EQ2 has had like 4-7 expansions, WoW has had 2 and LOTRO has just introduced their first major expansion.

I agree. But in a difference sense. I don't want another pvp or pve only game. I want one that is blended into a beautiful immersive world that anyone could do anything they wished and true roleplaying was encouraged. One could be a bounty hunter if one wished. One could be a traveling merchant. Etc.

Granted I started out on EQ and adored how great the PvE was in that game. I have over the years found that its far more entertaining to fight against humans than artificial intelligence. Dark Age of Camelot is a game I've been praising for a long time, despite the fact its on the verge of dying. DAoC did in fact have numerous dungeons, several expansions and you guessed it, realm vs. realm combat.

First thing first. I don't mind PvP at all. The thing is, when its the only thing that's in the game, or that PvP is its selling point it becomes bland rather fast. But to be fair its the same with PvE. The only solution is for developers to do away with these "only" games and mesh the two and create an immersive world. In other words. They need to think outside the box.

Now, I love PvE as much as the next guy, but seriously, once you raid a dungeon, don't you find the mystery after going through it again a little... bland? I can't figure out how anyone can be entertained by playing a MMO version of chess, which is basically what dungeons are. You figure out the boss mechanics from trial and error and you make changes to your tactics till you defeat him.

Right and this is the issue with pve games. When the endgame consists of raiding it will be boring, eventually. What's the purpose of getting that gear? Just to look flashy? How boring. Don't get me wrong, I like working with a group to achieve something. But not when it's the same thing over and over. Why not have a group of devs (with props) and writers script constant events that actually happen in player cities? Have a dragon attack the city and risk burning it to the ground. Hell, the reward would be survival of the town and its resources.

But again, we reach the same conclusion. Devs need to think outside the box instead of repeating tried and true EQ models until they are blue in the face and we all throw up because we are sick of them.

When you fight another human, even if its the same person/character, your battles are never the same. Sure, you know what abilities that player might have, but maybe he has a new trick up his sleeve.

Here is where I respectfully disagree. When you have systems like say.. WoW uses. sooner or later people will use the same moves on you becuase they are the best and that class is the flavor of the month. So there is actually alot of monotony. This is why skill based games with trumph any other in the future. (see mortal online, fpsmmorpg) But that is a separate discussion. :D

Now, if PvE ever evolves to AI that learns from players and builds from it, than yes, PvE will again take precedence over PvP. Until such a time, I don't expect to ever see another EQ type game for some time.

But even so. I think a mmorpg should be SO much more than just PvP all over the place don't you agree? I personally don't want another "battleground" pvp like WoW's battleground instances and WAR's scenarios. Like I said.. there could be sooo much more.

For a moment, from what was said about Darkfall Online mobs having super AI that allowed them to build their own fortresses and even loot killed players and use what they find. I was thinking, FINALLY, someone who knows what they are doing. Then I find out it was not implemented and that wildlife in DFO is worse then it was in Shadowbane.

Really? That's a shame. But you have to give them credit for at least breaking the mold a bit eh? I hear the AI in that game is rough.

Anyhow, let me know what it is about current PvE games that you don't like that you are in need of a new one?

Raiding? Grinding? Bland quests? The fact thats all there is to do? Need I say more? :D PvP mmos are starting to suffer the same thing, nothing really much to do except fight.

Just my two cents. :D

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

You say you want another great PvE game, so let me ask you this. What is wrong with the current ones? WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO are all great PvE games. EQ2 has had like 4-7 expansions, WoW has had 2 and LOTRO has just introduced their first major expansion.

This

With so many new MMOs failing to break any new ground, why not continue to enjoy what we have until something truly new comes along?

I say good ridance.

I for one am glad PvP games are coming back, so many games recently have been geared for a younger audience, and while they are fun and have their moments nothing is like rush you get after fighting someone and being able to claim your prize. every pvp encounter is like a boss raid, cause you never know what sweet gear your going to get next! I played asherons call darktide server and eq1 its brutal, getting ganked at lvl 5. lvling up is much more rewarding. there is so much to lose and so much to gain, its always exciting and keep you on your toes! i know its not everyones cup o tea but its mine and a good pvp game is long overdue. no more battlegrounds or arenas preset castle seiges. let build an empire defend it and take other peoples!

I still have faith in the PvE aspect, my faith is placed in Square Enix's new MMO. An RPG company making an MMORPG thats why I have faith. Keep tuned in at this years June E3. Dont be shocked if its out by Q4 this year either since they have been working on it for a 4-5 years nows. And SE likes to keep things secret until its on the virge of release.  

I often like reading the things you post and this was no exception.  You put some good well written stuff down here and gave me some good food for thought. However I view things differently. You seem to view the old PvE game design as being something that game designers should hold onto while I think it is definately something which should be moved away from........as fast as possible!!
 

Originally posted by popinjay

Looking at all the new MMO releases in the upcoming year, you start to notice a trend. You can see plenty of different kinds of multiplayer games, but the one common theme in them is they all seem to be gearing the endgame towards PvP. Aion, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Spellborn, any of the "comic" Ips, Darkfall (just out), and the list goes on and on with most ending in pvp action.

Actually its more than simply gearing the endgame towards PvP. In several of them PvP action is integrated into the entire game from the beginning and in a few of them it seems the entire concept of "endgame" is becoming obsolete. Darkfall is a prime example of this. There is no daft static unchangeable story that the players must follow as the players are free to do whatever they like so there is no "end" to the game. This is a great thing because it means that developers seem to be finally waking up to the fact that online games should not be about just fighting against the computer. They seem to have realised that they cant just keep making single player games in multiplayer mode and plonking them online. People want more than this. Now they are making games where the players are the real inhabitants and decision makers that decide and shape the game world and the PvE aspect is simply there to add substance to the background of the world.

 

It appears that the overwhelming majority of those games will all start off in traditional MMO style: Start at level 1, do plenty of quests, some token dungeons along the way until you reach endgame. Now where older MMOs used to have people pointed towards raiding for the endgame and some PvP as a sideshow, newer MMOs have people pointed towards PvP as the final culmination, and want to integrate it as the defining element.

For a while I think this will be the case. Over time I expect to see the simplistic "You start at level 1 and finish at level 100" approach become less common as it really is just an outdated approach to game design which has carried over from single player games. In an online game players want to play games with and against each other. Levels only serve to divide and seperate people. They work fine for single player games because it is only the player vs the computer and as the player progresses through the story the computer scales to match the player, but in mmos they always cause unfair situations to occur (eg level 40 crushes a level 10 simply because he has more numbers). Also story driven content in mmos makes very little sense as well because in most cases you simply cannot play the game with each other because everyone is at a different point in the story.

Set stories which never change are for single player games. They dont belong in online games. However dynamic PvE quests which change based on the players actions are a different matter.

Warhammer and Age of Conan is a prime example of where the industry is headed. Although both games did miserably compared to what was expected of them, they both follow a similar formula. PvE is used along the way as a means to level up your guy, with side diversions. Warhammer does offer the "pvp only" path of leveling, but its heavily dependant on population, so most people have been forced to go the PvE route do to low pops at times, but the endgame purpose in not in doubt. Kill other players.

Yeah I agree. Also look at why WAR has not done very well. All the players are seperated from each other because they are forced into seperate "rooms" that are level dependant (eg everyone from levels 1 - 10 in room 1, levels 11-20 in room 2 etc). It is also a linear story that makes the players follow a line from "start" to "finish". If it wasnt a story driven game with PvE quests and levels then players would be free to go and fight battles with each other anywhere they liked. It would actually be a strategic war game with all the roleplaying elements which is what Warhammer is supposed to be about. Instead we have loads of players grinding through a very dull and predictable story just so they can reach the end of the game where the more enjoyable big battles take place........and thats the bit people really want to play.

Conan is more how I see the industry headed than WAR, though. In Conan, you level traditionally with PvE, but with Pvp minigames along the way so you can kill other players. There is enough dungeons to raid so that you don't tire of them, and then a small number of large ones at the end. But if you are in a guild, your guild is probably building or planning to build a keep in the PvP zone, where any other guild can attack your city. So guilds begin building walls to keep invaders out, while adding crafting items inside. Ultimately, your guild will end up with a city that needs defending constantly, which will make your endgame largely PvP based. Raiding will become the "sideshow", much like PvP used to be. You can actually be fooled into thinking Conan is a PvE game because the PvE questing is done so well, and then at 80.. you get an awakening with the mad rush to bolster defenses against other players.

No actually AoC IS a PvE game. The end of the game may very not be that but that "little bit of the game" where you go from level 1 - 80 is the main part of the game. Thats where the developers spent most of their time creating content. Its primarily a PvE experience until you get to the end of the game.

I hope mmos dont follow this route in game design because it totally goes against what online games are capable of. Again developers need to stop focusing on games where the players just play against the computer all the time. Online games should be a drasticly different experience to single player games. Currently they are far too similar by their design......which is understandable because games developers have been used to making single player games for years. Things are changing though as they are gaining the required skill and competence to make online games what they should be.

The types of MMOs in the past that were 90-95% PvE (FFXI, EQ2, WoW, etc) are becoming a dinosaur, as are the people that played them. Just like gamemakers wanted to copy Wow's success, they all seem as though they want to copy this formula of low maintainence endgame content.

When you reach endgame in a game such as this type, the developers now can relax. Why? Because they don't really have to create new dungeons for people to raid anymore. The people themselves will keep each other busy killing one another, over and over and over, in the same zones without noticing there's really nothing new to the table. A special event (Thankgiving Carve-up, or something similarly cheesy-named) will be the only things companies will have to do from that point on. Creativity will take a sharp nose dive because a Skull head trinket you got for killing 100 enemies will be good enough. How hard is that to design?

How hard is that to design? A hell of a lot harder than any PvE endgame content.

You are basicly saying that endgame content focused around PvP requires no effort to make and no level of maintenance and that isnt true. It is actually more open to potential bugs and balance issues and other things because the players have more freedom to do what they like. You seem to be thinking of it as a big empty room where the players just run around bashing each other. Good PvP endgame should have decent PvE content to support it (eg city building, summoning and creation of npc units to send against other players, dynamic world content that changes relating to player actions etc).

Look at PvE endgame content. Is that really any harder to make? The devs just create a big dungeon like they have been doing throughout the entire PvE game. Its basicly just more of the same. It doesnt neccessarily require any more or less maintenance. Like I said a good PvP game will have PvE as well. There is no reason to seperate the two.

 

For younger gamers, this is a very good thing. They were raised on the PvP diet with console games. Most older gamers, who used to love to destroy humans in console and computer type games like Quake, Diablo, Unreal Tournament and such for PvP, then come to MMOs for PvE for a completely different satisfaction.. working TOGETHER with people in raids. Somehow developers have gotten people to pay for content they pretty much were getting for free for years, and happily paying for it. Perhaps this is where the industry was meant to go since inception and I never realized it while playing over the years.

Yeah but also developers are getting people to pay a monthly fee for the same content they have been getting in single player games......because thats all a PvE mmo is. Its a single player game in multiplayer mode. PvP was always free in console games? Yeah well so was PvE.

Also whats this nonsense about younger players being raised on PvP. I hope you are not trying to go down the old "PvP is for kids" route because if you are then you are completely and utterly wrong. Younger gamers play single player and multiplayer games just in the same way that older players do. Games are games. They are not favoured by any particular age group.

Also when you referred to gamers (I will ignore the "older" part because its nonsense) working TOGETHER you seem to be implying that this is what mmos are all about. If you are then you are wrong. MMOs should allow players to work together AND against each other.......although of course this does depend on the setting of the game. If its a game about the inhabitants of Earth repelling an alien invasion and the players can only be humans then a pure PvE approach would make sense.

The only reason people have such a problem with PvP in games is because of the levelling concept which has carried over from single player games. Developers have had a severe mental block about this and seem to find it really hard to find an alternative solution that is more suitable and appropriate to an online game populated by thousands of people. Just because its a roleplaying game it doesnt mean that it MUST have levels in it. Also because mmos have been designed as single player games we end up with people playing them as single player games (in multiplayer mode) so when player conflict arises it annoys people because they think "Heh hang on a minute. I'm busy playing an online single player game here. What do you think you're doing by infringing on MY game. This game is about ME because I am the hero."

I will mourn the passing of the PvE era. I know many on this site and around the industry today will not. Younger games want to kill each other, and companies want to be able to get the dollars that free games like Call to Duty were freeing people from having to spend.

I will not mourn it in the slightest. In fact I will be shoving it out the door and handing it its coat and hat on the way out. PvE is the guest at a dinner party that manages to keep people amused and distracted with mundane jokes and stories but deep down everyone just wishes there was someone more interesting to have around.

It has been long overdue for mmos to move away from the tired and tested PvE approach. It still has its place in mmos and I still think that story driven content has a part to play but I also think that the PvE content in mmos should be a LOT more dynamic and open to player interaction. Players actions should be able to change the outcome of the PvE content which should in turn effect the players in it. Otherwise you just end up with more games like WoW, EQ2, AoC and so on which are just static single player game worlds that the players cant have any influence over. The players are just bystanders in these games and nothing anyone does ever changes anything. By moving away from these PvE focused games developers can start to make dynamic and interesting games where the players can actually have a lasting impact on the gameworld........which is what a PERSISTENT online game world should be all about. Currently these games are persistent in completely the wrong way......as in they never change......at all.

Call of Duty is a completely different experience to an mmo. The online aspect is simply a set of arenas where people shoot each other. There is no "persistent world" to explore or roleplaying elements to get involved in. I want an mmo which combines the good, exciting and competitive gameplay which we see in CoD with an online interactive gameworld and all the roleplaying values we find in mmos.

Also please drop the "younger gamer" comments because its just a load of bollocks. I'm 33 and I was playing Battlefield 2142 earlier. Does that mean I was playing a game for kids? No I didnt think so.

When I want to do PvP from now on, I will look for those games because in most everyway, they are done consistently better with no "class balancing" issues or server downtime, or bugged environments and the whole host of problems.

.......until developers make a decent mmo which actually has good gameplay in it. Gosh! Who would have ever thought of that?! An mmo which you can play just as well as any single player game? Surely not!

Thats the point though isnt it. The online aspects of many single player games are generally better made than most mmos. Thats got NOTHING to do with PvP in a game though as what you are saying applies equally to PvE mmos. It just means that mmos suck.

Bugs, lag and server downtime are always going to be an issue in online gaming. They plague ALL online games not just mmos. Class balancing is also an issue in other non roleplaying games as well ya know. In the Battlefield games the game mechanics, vehicles, weapons and maps were being tweaked for ages before any kind of balance was achieved. However people didnt notice it and complain as much because they were too busy enjoying themselves. However in mmos there is less actual gameplay for the players to get involved in which leaves a lot more time for the players to sit back and think "Hmmm I just clicked on that ability and I can see that the damage output of my dps class is 12.75% lower than the damage output of that tank class. This means that my designated role in the group mechanic is compromised."

As for PvE, it will be a part of the games, but never again will it be the main focus of any new MMO.

I hope so.

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

You say you want another great PvE game, so let me ask you this. What is wrong with the current ones? WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO are all great PvE games. EQ2 has had like 4-7 expansions, WoW has had 2 and LOTRO has just introduced their first major expansion.

I agree. But in a difference sense. I don't want another pvp or pve only game. I want one that is blended into a beautiful immersive world that anyone could do anything they wished and true roleplaying was encouraged. One could be a bounty hunter if one wished. One could be a traveling merchant. Etc.

Granted I started out on EQ and adored how great the PvE was in that game. I have over the years found that its far more entertaining to fight against humans than artificial intelligence. Dark Age of Camelot is a game I've been praising for a long time, despite the fact its on the verge of dying. DAoC did in fact have numerous dungeons, several expansions and you guessed it, realm vs. realm combat.

First thing first. I don't mind PvP at all. The thing is, when its the only thing that's in the game, or that PvP is its selling point it becomes bland rather fast. But to be fair its the same with PvE. The only solution is for developers to do away with these "only" games and mesh the two and create an immersive world. In other words. They need to think outside the box.

Now, I love PvE as much as the next guy, but seriously, once you raid a dungeon, don't you find the mystery after going through it again a little... bland? I can't figure out how anyone can be entertained by playing a MMO version of chess, which is basically what dungeons are. You figure out the boss mechanics from trial and error and you make changes to your tactics till you defeat him.

Right and this is the issue with pve games. When the endgame consists of raiding it will be boring, eventually. What's the purpose of getting that gear? Just to look flashy? How boring. Don't get me wrong, I like working with a group to achieve something. But not when it's the same thing over and over. Why not have a group of devs (with props) and writers script constant events that actually happen in player cities? Have a dragon attack the city and risk burning it to the ground. Hell, the reward would be survival of the town and its resources.

But again, we reach the same conclusion. Devs need to think outside the box instead of repeating tried and true EQ models until they are blue in the face and we all throw up because we are sick of them.

When you fight another human, even if its the same person/character, your battles are never the same. Sure, you know what abilities that player might have, but maybe he has a new trick up his sleeve.

Here is where I respectfully disagree. When you have systems like say.. WoW uses. sooner or later people will use the same moves on you becuase they are the best and that class is the flavor of the month. So there is actually alot of monotony. This is why skill based games with trumph any other in the future. (see mortal online, fpsmmorpg) But that is a separate discussion. :D

Now, if PvE ever evolves to AI that learns from players and builds from it, than yes, PvE will again take precedence over PvP. Until such a time, I don't expect to ever see another EQ type game for some time.

But even so. I think a mmorpg should be SO much more than just PvP all over the place don't you agree? I personally don't want another "battleground" pvp like WoW's battleground instances and WAR's scenarios. Like I said.. there could be sooo much more.

For a moment, from what was said about Darkfall Online mobs having super AI that allowed them to build their own fortresses and even loot killed players and use what they find. I was thinking, FINALLY, someone who knows what they are doing. Then I find out it was not implemented and that wildlife in DFO is worse then it was in Shadowbane.

Really? That's a shame. But you have to give them credit for at least breaking the mold a bit eh? I hear the AI in that game is rough.

Anyhow, let me know what it is about current PvE games that you don't like that you are in need of a new one?

Raiding? Grinding? Bland quests? The fact thats all there is to do? Need I say more? :D PvP mmos are starting to suffer the same thing, nothing really much to do except fight.

 

Just my two cents. :D

I really like everything you said there. I totally agree with every word of it. Count me as a new fan ;-)

---

Originally posted by Sovrath

 Actually you are completely incorrect.
The plethora of PvP games is more about a backlash (though perhaps not so dramatic) to all the PvE games that are out.

---

Well, it's nice to know I'm completely incorrect. I really hate to do anything half baked.

The endgame PvP games that are releasing this year are not coming out as some 'reactionary force to the status quo'. The MMO market has nothing to do with ideologies... its about gaming and what companies think they can sell for the least amount of capital outlay.

Companies know that they can make a PvE based game anytime, but that requires a TON of writing, questing and dungeon designing, artists, etc. This process takes infinitely longer than say, whipping up a "Capture the Flag" scenario in a PvP mmo and is FAR cheaper too. Nothing really tough about maintaining "zone flipping" once the simple mechanic is in place, nor is it revolutionary. You really don't need an immersive world for a PvP player. Design your instance or zone, you can even paint it on and it doesn't matter. It's not like a typical pvper will really look around and go notice how the water or clouds are moving, or think "Wow, those trees are amazing!" They are too busy watching for the zerg. They are not interested in an immersive experience, by and large.

PvP games are coming out because as has been said in this thread, far cheaper and easier to maintain. It gives the company vastly improved return on their investments and further "updates" don't require much manpower.

First off, I didn't really understand if the OP meant WoW PvE "endgame"...4 hour raids...or if he meant story-driven, possibly quest-oriented PvE. Anyways, if he meant the raiding, I don't see why he's promoting it. Very few people actually enjoy it, but in a game like WoW, they're made to enjoy it because that's the best path to the best gear. By all means, if someone comes up with a slightly different template for raiding and doesn't make it mandatory, that's great.

Neon - I think you're right, except I think that the idea of everyone's actions affecting the game world won't appear in MMOs...without instances, of course. MMOs could take an AoC Tortage approach for the entire game I suppose, but still, everyone running around being the "Chosen One" really makes them all the same.

Originally posted by spdkilla

 Personally i think in CoX adding pvp was a mistake on the CoH side as it required massive nerfing of existing char and lots of re-balancing just for pvp.

Completely agree with you

In LOTRO - originally there was no plan for PVP. Than they added kind of PVP called monster play.

They promised that they will never nerf player class to balance PVP.

Yet monster play grew in popularity. And notable PVE class - Burglar - became to powerful. Because its Stealth class.

So it was nerfed...

Now , stealth was never problem in PVE. Its simple gameplay choice. Its fun for people that like it. And its never overpowered in PVE.

But burglars got so nerfed - they fall into least wanted class. Nobody plays them anymore.

And this is how PVP punished players that never wanted PVP and therefore choose PVE game.

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

You say you want another great PvE game, so let me ask you this. What is wrong with the current ones? WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO are all great PvE games. EQ2 has had like 4-7 expansions, WoW has had 2 and LOTRO has just introduced their first major expansion.

Granted I started out on EQ and adored how great the PvE was in that game. I have over the years found that its far more entertaining to fight against humans than artificial intelligence. Dark Age of Camelot is a game I've been praising for a long time, despite the fact its on the verge of dying. DAoC did in fact have numerous dungeons, several expansions and you guessed it, realm vs. realm combat.

Now, I love PvE as much as the next guy, but seriously, once you raid a dungeon, don't you find the mystery after going through it again a little... bland? I can't figure out how anyone can be entertained by playing a MMO version of chess, which is basically what dungeons are. You figure out the boss mechanics from trial and error and you make changes to your tactics till you defeat him.

When you fight another human, even if its the same person/character, your battles are never the same. Sure, you know what abilities that player might have, but maybe he has a new trick up his sleeve.

Now, if PvE ever evolves to AI that learns from players and builds from it, than yes, PvE will again take precedence over PvP. Until such a time, I don't expect to ever see another EQ type game for some time.

For a moment, from what was said about Darkfall Online mobs having super AI that allowed them to build their own fortresses and even loot killed players and use what they find. I was thinking, FINALLY, someone who knows what they are doing. Then I find out it was not implemented and that wildlife in DFO is worse then it was in Shadowbane.

Anyhow, let me know what it is about current PvE games that you don't like that you are in need of a new one?

While the claim that two pvp situation are not 100% the same seems to be true, that is really misleading.  Fights are repetitive which is the real issue.  Repetitive is boring no matter how well you try to sell it as something different every time.  As the pulling something out of the blue it just doesn't sell.  The vast majority of games have a limited set of skills, abilities or "magic" to pull out in a fight to make it that surprising.

The op is right and I've had the same feelings I've had for a long time.  The pve genre as we've known it in the past is dying. 

I like pvp occasionally but for it to be the endgame or focus of a mmorpg reeks of lazy development.  Creating a pve game requires more creative effort than a pvp game. 

For those folks complaining how can someone play a pve game without becoming tired of the same old raids....you can become tired of doing anything in any game.  Alot of people expect a mmorpg to become a second life when a game should never be used in that manner.  So they burn through content in a month then bitch forever after about the same old pve raids.  You have only yourself to blame.  Play in moderation. 

Pvp is mostly running around ganking.  Call it what you will but it all crumbles down into killing someone else for whatever reason.  Who plays pvp games to craft or quest?  Pve games can have far more depth.

I've said this before:  The instant gratification, "I'm scared to install hardware" and "I'm afraid to type", marathon deathmatch console crowd is destroying pc games for the rest of us.

Originally posted by ericbelser

As some others have stated or hinted at, I don't think you are seeing any kind of real trend here.

PvP is popular with devs at the moment for three big reasons...the first and most important of which is that PvP is "content-lite", it takes the *least* dedicated time of any "content" to develop because it is all player driven. The "endgame" raid and zone design of games like EQ and WoW is a huge investment of coder, writer and graphic designer manpower/time and many many studios are "cheaping out" for various reasons.

Secondly, the lack of any good modern pvp-driven MMO made the market niche seem pretty attractive and everyone raced for it. The only reason that niche hasn't been overfilled yet is because most of the games that went for it (AoC, WAR, PotBS etc) failed in many regards. Likewise, many studios are trying desperately to capture the perceived next big "growth market" of MMOs...that of crossover FPS players.

Lastly, perceptions....the *minority* of players who want "sandbox" gameplay and pvp-centric games are incredibly vocal, mostly because they tend to be somewhat jaded/experienced gamers who aren't happily playing something else and so have time to whine and bitch a lot on forums...(Like me :) However, have no illusions here, that is a tiny minority of the MMORPG potential player market, the majority are off happily immersed in questing and PvE in EQ2, Vanguard, WoW, LotRO and all the other currently active and successful MMOs with little to no pvp content.

I dont totally agree that PvP content neccessarily requires less effort to make because it naturally has to involve a degree of PvE content to give players something to participate in. Also because it is more heavily player driven there is more scope for new unforeseen situations to occur which the devs will need to keep an eye on. Its more volatile in other words. In a pure PvE game its pretty much the same journey every time. Yes there is more "content" but that content is actually just the same stuff replicated most of the time with a bunch of text files thrown in to make the lore fans go "Oh wow! What a deep game!"

Otherwise everything in white text seems very insightful to me.

The red text is however a load of bollocks.......unless of course you can produce some facts and figures to back it up. Otherwise its just pure guess work as you have absolutely no way of knowing what EVERY gamer prefers. The whole "PvPers are a loud and vocal minority" is so old. Its that typical put-down that PvE players use to try and make the PvP fans seem like angry raging lunatics and in turn try and make themselves come across as superior, calm and more intelligent players.

The "incredibly vocal PvPers" you are referring to are also the people you play PvE games alongside........and dont say that the majority of the PvE players are happily playing the PvE games currently on the market. A large number of them are on these forums a lot of the time because they are bored to death with what is on offer.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by spdkilla

 Personally i think in CoX adding pvp was a mistake on the CoH side as it required massive nerfing of existing char and lots of re-balancing just for pvp.

 

Completely agree with you

In LOTRO - originally there was no plan for PVP. Than they added kind of PVP called monster play.

They promised that they will never nerf player class to balance PVP.

 

Yet monster play grew in popularity. And notable PVE class - Burglar - became to powerful. Because its Stealth class.

So it was nerfed...

 

Now , stealth was never problem in PVE. Its simple gameplay choice. Its fun for people that like it. And its never overpowered in PVE.

But burglars got so nerfed - they fall into least wanted class. Nobody plays them anymore.

 

And this is how PVP punished players that never wanted PVP and therefore choose PVE game.

Ah but if less people are interested in playing a burglar as a result of being nerfed due to the PvP aspect of the game, does it really matter at all to the players who are only interested in the PvE aspect? The PvE players are effectively immersed in their own personal world in which its them against the computer. Why should it matter to those individuals what other people are doing? In a pure PvE game the actions of the players dont really have any impact on anything anyway. Its effectively just an interactive online book and the "story" doesnt care if there are a million guardians, minstrels, wardens etc and only 10 burglars. The individual can still read the story.

Star wars the old republic sounds like its going to be a mainly pve game with pvp secondary because the devs say thats its going to be a heavily story driven.

I think pvp should be something that happens by chance in the open world like in the middle of doing a pve event and not in some battleground or scenario.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

While you are quite right, you are forgetting SWTOR.

 , a game that is worth of "If anything will dethrone WOW - this will" (And this time for real)

So a game heading towards future industry lead , and its almost completely PVE based

apart that it isnt rly an mmorpg.. and while most of us hoped that it will be new king.. most of us knows now.. thats its gona be online single player game with fees.. i wonder will there be any sort of pvp/pve.. as their combat is .. what they called.. cant recall now.. but it wont work in any 5v1 dungeons or 20 v1 raids.. and i doubt there will be pvp.. apart endless solo dungeons.. on which whole game is based..

Originally posted by Spiritof55

The op is right and I've had the same feelings I've had for a long time.  The pve genre as we've known it in the past is dying. 

Good. The mmo genre needs to wake up and become more interesting. Many people agree that it has become stale and boring.

I like pvp occasionally but for it to be the endgame or focus of a mmorpg reeks of lazy development.  Creating a pve game requires more creative effort than a pvp game.

Really? Are yoy sure about that? How much effort is required to recreate variations of the quest "I need to make some lovely nice boar soup. Please go and kill 10 boars". Creative effort? I dont think so.

For those folks complaining how can someone play a pve game without becoming tired of the same old raids....you can become tired of doing anything in any game.  Alot of people expect a mmorpg to become a second life when a game should never be used in that manner.  So they burn through content in a month then bitch forever after about the same old pve raids.  You have only yourself to blame.  Play in moderation.

I totally agree. However the games are designed to make the players yearn for the next level or the next piece of loot. I think many people play these games more because they are addicted rather than for the enjoyment of playing. Without the shallow character progression in the form of level grinding or the constant collecting of new loot which is actually just the same as the last loot but simply with higher stats to match the players higher level......well......what are you left with? I seriously doubt anyone would bother playing an mmo purely for its gameplay value because without all the "addiction" stuff they are piss poor as actual games. In fact I have never understood how a person can play the same game for years anyway.

Pvp is mostly running around ganking.  Call it what you will but it all crumbles down into killing someone else for whatever reason.  Who plays pvp games to craft or quest?  Pve games can have far more depth.

PvE is mostly running around ganking mobs. Call it what you will but it all crumbles down into killing mobs for whatever reason. Your logic fails. Sorry. At least a player can react to you and go on the offensive. A mob cant even see you unless you stand within a few metres of it......and even then it doesnt always react lol

Who plays PvP games to craft or quest? Well regarding the questing part its a pretty stupid question considering that there arent any games which really incorporate questing and PvP successfully. Who plays PvP to quest? No-one because there arent any games for that.

As for crafting.....well it actually makes MORE sense in a PvP game because you can become a valuable and needed member for your guild if the stuff you make actually gets put to use in a competitive nature. Crafting in most PvE games is useless because mobs usually drop better loot than you can make. If there are no mobs to drop "shiny phat loot" then player crafting plays a vital role in the game and is a LOT more interesting.

I've said this before:  The instant gratification, "I'm scared to install hardware" and "I'm afraid to type", marathon deathmatch console crowd is destroying pc games for the rest of us.

You may have said that before but you really shouldnt say it again as its a really dumb statement.

No they arent. You're just imagining it. The "marathon deathmatch console crowd" you are referring to are the same people you group up with in PvE mmos. You can try and put people into neat little boxes if it makes you feel more secure in some way but they wont stay in them.

Originally posted by Smikis

Originally posted by Lobotomist

While you are quite right, you are forgetting SWTOR.

 , a game that is worth of "If anything will dethrone WOW - this will" (And this time for real)

So a game heading towards future industry lead , and its almost completely PVE based

 

apart that it isnt rly an mmorpg.. and while most of us hoped that it will be new king.. most of us knows now.. thats its gona be online single player game with fees.. i wonder will there be any sort of pvp/pve.. as their combat is .. what they called.. cant recall now.. but it wont work in any 5v1 dungeons or 20 v1 raids.. and i doubt there will be pvp.. apart endless solo dungeons.. on which whole game is based..

Your so wrong, let me guess swg vet?

Originally posted by popinjay 

 

 

Well, it's nice to know I'm completely incorrect. I really hate to do anything half baked.

The endgame PvP games that are releasing this year are not coming out as some 'reactionary force to the status quo'. The MMO market has nothing to do with ideologies... its about gaming and what companies think they can sell for the least amount of capital outlay.

Its also about not directly competing with another company, when  several others have consistantly fail.

 

Companies know that they can make a PvE based game anytime, but that requires a TON of writing, questing and dungeon designing, artists, etc. This process takes infinitely longer than say, whipping up a "Capture the Flag" scenario in a PvP mmo and is FAR cheaper too. Nothing really tough about maintaining "zone flipping" once the simple mechanic is in place, nor is it revolutionary. You really don't need an immersive world for a PvP player. Design your instance or zone, you can even paint it on and it doesn't matter. It's not like a typical pvper will really look around and go notice how the water or clouds are moving, or think "Wow, those trees are amazing!" They are too busy watching for the zerg. They are not interested in an immersive experience, by and large.

I would have to disagree here and point to CCP as the prefect example of how that is not the case. CCP running EVE which is one of the Few PVP MMOs that was designed from the scratch to be heavily PVP player faction vs Player faction warfare has one of the most Expensive Server clusters not in the MMO world, just the world period. They have been pushing very close from joining a list of Server clusters that is dominated by Fortune 500 Companies, Goverments, and Research groups. Be honest is is very Cheap and easy to do PVE. Think its hard go load up some of the custom Neverwinter Nights mods/scenarios, There are several of those that have a far better storyline then anything that blizzard has put out, and were done in less time then it took blizzard to put out any of thier expansions. Its not expensive to run a PVE server where everything and its brother is instanced so it can run on very cheap server hardware.

PvP games are coming out because as has been said in this thread, far cheaper and easier to maintain. It gives the company vastly improved return on their investments and further "updates" don't require much manpower.

The key thing is Cheap and easy to design a Crappy PVP game where everything is based off of some FPS scenario and heavily instanced left and right. A good PVP game requires a lot of money and a solid group of designers to make sure that everything is balanced properly and to continue to expand the options of the players in how they are able to fight thier own wars, and don't think that PVPers don't reognize good immersion as well. Problem is the current group of so called PVP centered games have done everything but be PVP centered games. They have been poorly done PVE game mechanics with the same tacked on PVP game mechanics that are available in PVE games now. When that changes you might see things a bit different.

Originally posted by popinjay

Looking at all the new MMO releases in the upcoming year, you start to notice a trend. You can see plenty of different kinds of multiplayer games, but the one common theme in them is they all seem to be gearing the endgame towards PvP. Aion, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Spellborn, any of the "comic" Ips, Darkfall (just out), and the list goes on and on with most ending in pvp action.

 

It appears that the overwhelming majority of those games will all start off in traditional MMO style: Start at level 1, do plenty of quests, some token dungeons along the way until you reach endgame. Now where older MMOs used to have people pointed towards raiding for the endgame and some PvP as a sideshow, newer MMOs have people pointed towards PvP as the final culmination, and want to integrate it as the defining element.

Warhammer and Age of Conan is a prime example of where the industry is headed. Although both games did miserably compared to what was expected of them, they both follow a similar formula. PvE is used along the way as a means to level up your guy, with side diversions.

 

 

Except for Warhammer, which was mediocre, that entire list is crap, garbage, junk. I wouldn't care if those games had PvP, or PvE, or just PP, so I don't think you can extrapolate a trend from a long list of  crap.

The only decent game on the horizon is TOR, and I don't know if it's going to focus on PvP at all. If it does, cool, but obviously the game is geared towards PvE.

Are you saying you want more raiding end games? If that's what ya want, cool, I hope some developers make 'em for ya. But I'll take RvR and end game PvP over raiding any day. Just not in the crap form you listed.