Yeah, this is a long post. Mine usually are. QQ.

Please keep in mind that I'm not an MMO developer (even though I usually trick myself into thinking that I am). I don't get paid to think about MMOs. I thought this all up in about as long as it took me to type it up. It's not polished. So before you flip out and say something like "Dude if you can't perfect it, why do you think anyone else could?!"... punch yourself in the balls for wanting to say that and re-read this paragraph until it sinks in.

That aside, this is an example what a raid should be:

Consider, if you will, the mage tower of a powerful lich. That will be our raid dungeon. For the sake of total ownage, it will not be an instance, but instead will exist only once in the game world. However, it wouldn't be something that just anyone can happen across. It wouldn't be marked on some world map with a big name "Crazy Lich's Tower Here: Come Get Phat Lewtz!" It would be magically and otherwise shielded... perhaps it is physically located in some distant, secluded mountain valley... a place you don't find unless you FIND it... so to find it in the first place you might want to have some "explorer" skill that helps to notice overgrown mountain paths and some "mountaineering" skill that helps you to not fall down the freaking mountain when you try to take the overgrown path.

And then even when you find the obscure valley... we're not talking about a goblin chief's hovel! This is a massively powerful lich we're talking about. He's not going to have his tower just sitting there for anyone who wanders by to see, with big pretty banners hanging off the thing and smoke coming out of the chimneys and an open door with a sign on it saying, again, "Come Get Phat Lewtz!" It's going to be totally invisible from beyond a certain distance, and getting close enough to see it will require being partway into a forbidding, magical, monster-infested forest (like the one surrounding that one mage tower in the dragonlance books). Naturally you'll want some spiffy skills to survive a trek through there.

But yeah. Someone found the path. Someone survived the forest and got to the edge of the tower's courtyard. Someone got close enough that the tower is actually visible through the magical haze conjured by the lich. So what? There's probably tons of places that LOOK like this in the game, and the person who spotted the tower doesnt know wtf the place is. And he's just an explorer, anyways. What's he gonna do? Charge across the oddly quiet courtyard and kick in the plain-looking front door? No, no... he's much too seasoned for that kind of foolishness.

So the explorer fella has a friend do some scrying, or uses his "book worm" skill at the local library, or pays a player or NPC to do some digging. He finds out "evil nasty lich" is rumored to live there now. If he did a really good job digging he might find out who that lich was before he became a lich, learn some extra tactic to use against the lich when fighting it, find out that the lich has living descendants, etc.

So now he gets together a crew of 10 to raid the place. (Perhaps there would be similar places that are suitable for smaller groups or individuals... but this isnt the one. Wander in alone and you are gonna get pwned cause this lich is a badass). They spend time getting to the overgrown mountain path, manage to survive walking along the sheer cliffs, push their way through the forbidding forest, and start their way into the "raid."

The raid involves freaking everything. There are magical traps. There are mechanical traps. There are magically and/or mechanically locked doors. There are puzzles. There is story. There is conversation with meaningful choices in it. And, of course, there are fights. Lots of fights. All kinds of fights. There's the lich. There's his living apprentices, aspiring to lichdom. There's his emo death knight/anti-paladin buddy. There's a pissed off demon locked up in the basement. There's all kinds of magical abominations and undead minions. If the party wasn't careful to conceal their intentions while preparing for the raid, they probably even ran into fights before they even got to the tower... and not swarms of big brown bears and enraged deer and rabid wolves. Sure the raid was traveling through a forest... but why would a powerful lich use freaking wildlife to try to wipe out his impending doom?

But to gloss over the fighting - the party manages to best everything. The lich is defeated (not dead, of course... I'll get to that)... his minions exorcised, his apprentices dead, his traps disarmed, etc. Of course the party probably didnt kill everything, or find all the traps, etc. But what now? Did the lich drop 20,000 gold pieces, 6 spell books, dozens of gems, and magical items for all? Maybe a couple sets of full plate mail (which make you faster, stronger, smarter, protect you from fire damage, and can summon the shrine circus for 2 minutes at a time once per hour)? Of course not! The bastard may have had a staff, a book, a magical pack, some rare spell components, some magical scrolls, some protective jewelry, and a few exceptional gems on him.... but other than that? He hid his freaking shit.

His powerful spellbooks (of course in my game casters would be after SPELLS, components, etc, not aforementioned "Ridiculous Armors of Youbecomebetterateverything") are encrypted and magically warded and stashed in libraries and secret passages and magically locked trunks. His gold and platinum and jewels are stashed in a secret room guarded by puzzles and traps (and maybe, if the lich is tough enough, by an enslaved dragon). All the magical items he created when he felt like enchanting instead of slaying and necrophiling are stored here and there. Oh. And also. Who the hell knows what is beyond that ominous, forbidding, sealed portal that was in the top room where the lich was fought?

A party would spend as much time, or more, AFTER they've "cleared" or nearly cleared a dungeon looking for all the rest of the loot as they would fighting through to begin with. Maybe a lot of this post-clearing search would be soloable stuff - puzzles and traps that most anyone can handle if they are going after the right stuff (a "warrior" shouldnt be trying to find the lich's personal library and a "wizard" shouldn't be trying to nagivate a hallway full of mechanical traps to find the lich's gold coffers, etc).

And a party wouldn't HAVE to do all this extra searching. They could just settle for what drops and what they find with a cursory (or no) inspection and then move on. That's fine... because..........

The place isn't an instance. It is still there tomorrow. And when someone finds a hugely awesome tower full of incredible spells and wealth and crap... word travels. Especially if the party didnt use spells to ward against scrying, or cover their tracks leading up into the mountain valley, or weren't whispering when they told that NPC they paid to research "that old, decrepit-looking mage tower up in yonder hidden mountain valley". Etc.

Depending on how many of these steps were taken to protect the info of the tower, more or less time will pass before NPCs start showing up to see what they can do there. They want treasure, too. Or maybe they're rivals of the lich, or his friends. Or maybe other players paid an NPC private eye and he told them, another raid group, about the place and how the first group that was there all ready. Or all of the above.

But maybe the first raid group hired NPCs to protect the place. Fight. Yay! Maybe they are in there still. Fight. Yay! Maybe they all ready cleared the place out. Maybe they left it as is and there is still some treasure to be dug up. Whatever.

And then eventually perhaps the place does repopulate with the original stuff. Maybe a week later or two weeks later apprentices of the lich who were out and about hear that the place has been cleared out and so head in cautiously. They find the lich's "super ultra secret players can never seem to find it" phyllactery and bring him back... and the place slowly starts coming back to (un)life once again.

THAT'S how a raid dungeon should work.

THAT'S how a raid dungeon should work.

I agree 100%.

Originally posted by Shadow786

THAT'S how a raid dungeon should work.

 

I agree 100%.

Fast reader!

10 people? seriously?  A group of 10 people could raid  a goblin hovel, but not some big all powerful lich tower.  Back in the day EQ 75 man raids FELT like a raid.  Like you was just pillaging and plundering around in some big bad guys business.

Originally posted by Shadow786

THAT'S how a raid dungeon should work.

 

I agree 100%.

In theory yes it works, wait till someone tries to impliment it.

I suggest anyone with idea's to find some gamescripts, prefered scripts made before development even started, when people read these some might finaly realize that idea's mean nothing these day, each and every person has idea's when reading them they do look awesome, but the lack of knowledge of actualy developing a game lacks with most who have great idea's, and when people get into the developing part many tihngs that might have sound awesome on paper might turn out horrible ingame, even if it's done to the letter of the script.

So yeah awesome raid on paper..... overal wel written idea's but like I said.................

I like the idea and i like the way you wrote it, but i've no clue if it's feasible at all ingame to create such situations.

It's possible.

Maybe no one has tried yet.

Maybe no one has tried hard enough yet.

Maybe everyone has tried everything and they just haven't figured out quite how to do it yet.

But it's possible.

What isn't?

Originally posted by Reklaw
 

In theory yes it works, wait till someone tries to impliment it.

I suggest anyone with idea's to find some gamescripts, prefered scripts made before development even started, when people read these some might finaly realize that idea's mean nothing these day, each and every person has idea's when reading them they do look awesome, but the lack of knowledge of actualy developing a game lacks with most who have great idea's, and when people get into the developing part many tihngs that might have sound awesome on paper might turn out horrible ingame, even if it's done to the letter of the script.

So yeah awesome raid on paper..... overal wel written idea's but like I said.................

I think I see what you are getting at, but I have some disagreements.

Yeah, I don't doubt that implementing ideas like the ones I put in this thread is a challenge. But I like to think that things like this haven't come to life (and note that I place great emphasis on those three words) like some of us can see them in our minds not because it isn't possible, but because it just hasn't been done yet.

Ideas mean nothing? So the perfect system with flawless scripts and coding but no creative force behind it would just turn out a perfect MMO under their own power then, huh?

Play a PnP game. 

edit:  Or should I say that's what a PnP game should be.

Originally posted by Draklon

I like the idea and i like the way you wrote it, but i've no clue if it's feasible at all ingame to create such situations.

I have little doubt that it is not possible to implement those kinds of ideas in any MMO that's around right now... but that's just because no MMO that's around right now was built to incorporate stuff like this.

I'm sure that these things CAN be done. It's more a question of whether anyone is going to step up and do it.

Originally posted by paulscott

Play a PnP game. 

edit:  Or should I say that's what a PnP game should be.

I do. On a regular basis.

But I want more.

Some day, long ago, I bet someone finished reading a great book and thought "Wow. That was great! I can just see how fantastic it would look in actuality instead of just in my mind."

But then someone else said "Go read another book" because he didn't think there could be a "next level."

It is a nice dream, maybe in a few years.  But for now, I think it is probably a bit too much of a jump from the current, especially the hiding part/finding part.  Though, I do like your treasure idea, the best treasure a dungeon should have, the mob shouldn't be carrying around on their backs ;)

I've always seen a different approach.  I'm not a big fan of the 'zerg' raid mentality, but it can be useful.

Take this as an example (and the numbers could be scaled for difficulty as well).

You and your raid group of x individuals is standing infront of a castle of the enemy king (outlying duke for example).  This duke took over this border territory and defiled the local temple and draws his powers from this defiling (demonologist perhaps).  Standing before you is a completely open pit and a drawn up draw bridge, so how do you get in?  By the use of scouts and theives who are hired (ie, broght along on the raid) to infiltrate the castle and lower the drawbridge for the others.  They have their own little part in this to secure the towers until such time as reinforcements can arrive and have to move around to secure the different entraces and exits.

Also along are members of the 'player side relegion of x', be they paladins or clerics (or both) who once are in have to make their way to the temple inside to remove the defilement and maintain it to weaken the duke.  Also coming are warriors who have the responsibility of securing the barracks to prevent reinforcements from helping the duke.  Mages might be brought in to combat different spell casters the enemy might have, archers to secure the walls and prevent outside reinforcements from approaching the castle.  Then you have the main raid force who's responsibility it is to make their way through the dukes guards to find that he's either escaped (someone didn't do their job) or that he is there with reinforcements comeing (again, a job wasn't done), or he is waiting there with his pet demon, etc.

Now comes the more dynamic part, by taking this castle enough, the players can cause it to switch sides and becomes a new point from which further inland points could be taken (ie, the opening of new raids), or it can fall to the king to strenghten his borders thus bolstering the castle, making it harder to take or even take it back from the player side, thus making other raid inexcessible for the time being.

this is probably a bit more doable with the current mentality of raids, but yet doesn't just use the zerg mentality, each group in the set has to know what to do, has to do it effeciently or the whole thing fails or becomes a much more difficult thought.  Another thing I think is, each raid should be a once dead, you are dead and can not return to the castle until your timer is up (or you are resurected by a clergy member).  This would help prevent the zerg mentality and add a severe bit of challege to the whole deal.

I think the "ideas mean nothing" comment was in relation to people thinking that their ideas are somehow unique.  They're not.  Any idea you have has been mulled over and dissected in brainstorming sessions at any number of development houses.   Its not a slam.  Its just a dose of reality=)

Originally posted by Josher

I think the "ideas mean nothing" comment was in relation to people thinking that their ideas are somehow unique.  They're not.  Any idea you have has been mulled over and dissected in brainstorming sessions at any number of development houses.   Its not a slam.  Its just a dose of reality=)

You really think that in 1980 people were sitting around in their basements talking to each other, saying things like "Dude, wouldn't it be great? Wouldn't it be the sweetest game ever if, like, you took this maze... and you put little dots in it and you moved through the maze to eat the dots while dodging these mean-ass ghosts?! Dude!?"

I don't. But when someone DID come up with that idea and a company bit on it... Tetris. Epic.

Am I being ridiculously optimistic when I think that I have an idea that is truly novel, truly head-and-shoulders above everything else anyone is thinking of right now? Of course.

Do I have absolutely no basis for believing that I JUST MIGHT be the inventor of Tetris for this decade? Nah.

Originally posted by Raston

It is a nice dream, maybe in a few years.

Haha... I wouldn't expect this in the next decade. It's a dream, after all  

Oh wait now that you think about it:  EvE has it with the exploration mechanic.

Wander around to a rarely visted system(lowsec or nullsec), use your fancy probes to find a complex, do some fancy scout work to know what you need to bring to be optimized, then dig up some information on a wiki, then maybe call friends, and finally finish it.

_______

This same mechanic is also getting 10x improved come march 10th with a new probing system and wormholes(which are even closer to what you want).

Originally posted by fischsemmel

Originally posted by Raston

It is a nice dream, maybe in a few years.

 

 

Haha... I wouldn't expect this in the next decade. It's a dream, after all  

perhaps, but with computers, that decade is often cut far shorter due to the ever increasing power of computers.  Think of what has happened with computers in just the past 10 years since EQ became the first 3d (sorry Ultima) MMO...  They ran that game on some cards that wouldn't keep up with onboard PoS cards in today's rigs, let alone a geForce 280.

I think the jump isn't so much in the graphical for your case, it would be the programming logic side that is holding it back, but they are moving that along when you look at the difference in Game AI from EQ to say LotRO.

Originally posted by fischsemmel

Originally posted by Josher

I think the "ideas mean nothing" comment was in relation to people thinking that their ideas are somehow unique.  They're not.  Any idea you have has been mulled over and dissected in brainstorming sessions at any number of development houses.   Its not a slam.  Its just a dose of reality=)

indeed Josher.........
 

 

You really think that in 1980 people were sitting around in their basements talking to each other, saying things like "Dude, wouldn't it be great? Wouldn't it be the sweetest game ever if, like, you took this maze... and you put little dots in it and you moved through the maze to eat the dots while dodging these mean-ass ghosts?! Dude!?"

 1970/1980 yeah in those day's idea's could actualy mean something actualy most with the idea's where also the ones making it real, these day's a idea alone will just not cut it. But never give up on your idea

I don't. But when someone DID come up with that idea and a company bit on it... Tetris. Epic.

 

Am I being ridiculously optimistic when I think that I have an idea that is truly novel, truly head-and-shoulders above everything else anyone is thinking of right now? Of course.

Wel that part I fully agree as you need to stand by your idea regardless what me or anyone else might say about. So it's logical your are optimistic...it's your idea....  oh and I never actually said I didn't like your idea as I do like your idea.

 

Do I have absolutely no basis for believing that I JUST MIGHT be the inventor of Tetris for this decade? Nah.

Originally posted by Raston

originally posted by fischsemmel

Haha... I wouldn't expect this in the next decade. It's a dream, after all  

 

perhaps, but with computers, that decade is often cut far shorter due to the ever increasing power of computers.  Think of what has happened with computers in just the past 10 years since EQ became the first 3d (sorry Ultima) MMO...  They ran that game on some cards that wouldn't keep up with onboard PoS cards in today's rigs, let alone a geForce 280.

I think the jump isn't so much in the graphical for your case, it would be the programming logic side that is holding it back, but they are moving that along when you look at the difference in Game AI from EQ to say LotRO.

That's the thing, ya see. It isn't the computers that are stopping the world from having an MMO with stuff like this in it. There is the technology for this to be done NOW.

And frankly, MMOs haven't come very far in the last 10 years. At least, not in the way I would have liked to see them advance. WoW (and other high-quality MMOs like LOTRO, CoX, Eve) are infinitely more manageable than EQ or UO. That is true. Your character is more easily controlled, your UI is customizable, you have more information about your character and allies and opponents readily available... overall the games just play more smoothly.

But there isn't much more there. It's 75% (or more) the same stuff we were doing in EQ... it just is more polished.

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by fischsemmel

You really think that in 1980 people were sitting around in their basements talking to each other, saying things like "Dude, wouldn't it be great? Wouldn't it be the sweetest game ever if, like, you took this maze... and you put little dots in it and you moved through the maze to eat the dots while dodging these mean-ass ghosts?! Dude!?"

 1970/1980 yeah in those day's idea's could actualy mean something actualy most with the idea's where also the ones making it real, these day's a idea alone will just not cut it. But never give up on your idea

I don't. But when someone DID come up with that idea and a company bit on it... Tetris. Epic.

 

Am I being ridiculously optimistic when I think that I have an idea that is truly novel, truly head-and-shoulders above everything else anyone is thinking of right now? Of course.

Wel that part I fully agree as you need to stand by your idea regardless what me or anyone else might say about. So it's logical your are optimistic...it's your idea....  oh and I never actually said I didn't like your idea as I do like your idea.

 

Do I have absolutely no basis for believing that I JUST MIGHT be the inventor of Tetris for this decade? Nah.

 

I don't think an idea alone was ever enough, really, barring exceptionally good luck like a millionaire coming across your idea and taking a fancy to it.

Ideas are just as important now as ever, I believe. It just so happens that too many ideas are not going far enough. When Tetris was created, it wasn't just a 10% improvement over last year's flavor of the month... it was a revolution. It was a huge leap from the gameplay of its immediate predecessors.

Look at today's ideas, though. There aren't any leaps. When there IS forward movement, it is slow and halting. Few people are changing much of anything - they're just taking the same old game and changing the names and colors and calling it "next generation."

Edit - oh, and I didn't think that you were slamming my idea. But just a heads up to anyone who wants to: don't bother. I can't be disuaded. I'm convinced that I'm a genius and that anyone who disagrees with me is blind to the truth