Originally posted by CactusmanX

I wouldn't go the directional route, they never work as well as they sound and usually turn into spastic flailing.  Especially when you have to block in a particular direction, like in MOunt and Blade, it is just easier to dodge.

I would use something simple like using mouse button 1 and mouse button 2 for primary and secondary, ctrl to block, one block fits all, and use the R, F and C keys and the 1,2,3,4 keys for specials or combine shift and any of those keys to add different attacks you can string together in combos

Plays more like fighter at this point but I think you have more control over what you can do this way.

This is also a very, very good idea. This is what devs should be doing now until the above comes public.

Originally posted by ghstwolf

IMO precise weapon manipulation pretty much requires a whole new approach to input devices.  That is unless your goal is a "simple" system that uses guards/stances and predetermined swing and strike points from each (still a lot more advanced than most games).

I'm a bit more ambitious than that, I'd look for nearly full locomotive controls.  Think Wii on crack: a gyro on each hand, an elbow angle detector, and a multi-directional shoulder monitor.  That just covers the arms, I'd also want a fairly complex foot pedal assembly that would cover movement and ideally (as much as some people hate the idea) voice recognition for spell casting.

The gyro and elbow detector are fairly simple (largely off the shelf parts fairly simple to design) as would be the fool control (2 4-way pedals on a beam+ a beam angle sensor).  The shoulder is much harder but I'm guessing there is a cleaver person that could handle it (in a comfortable and universal fit manner).  I see Voice recognition as ready today, as long as the "magic words" are distinct from each other (we don't need the game to recognize every word, just spell triggers).

Now the problem is no one would play such a game (no matter how cool the game really was).  All those input devices would be $2-300 to buy (easily), and the nature of the controls would place something of a time limit on how long a play session could be.  It would also add time to "suit up" to the login which again is an annoyance to some.

I was thinking Eye-Toy.

Oooo that would be simple you just need to train your program to reconize two points on a sword and from there you can figure out it's exact position, angle, and whatever.   Then toss in some body position reconization to get those.

Well simple compared to everything else.  

Originally posted by magiix

How do you can be done a  full manipulation of the sword ??? Go

Assuming we're using the good ole keyboard & mouse, I would do it in First Person with mouse/cursor system that allows you to draw out your swords attack/guard path|pattern of motion.

Originally posted by techlord

Originally posted by magiix

How do you can be done a  full manipulation of the sword ??? Go

 

Assuming we're using the good ole keyboard & mouse, I would do it in First Person with mouse/cursor system that allows you to draw out your swords attack/guard path|pattern of motion.

First , Actually i thought about it but still can't imagine the whole image ... Even if it would be hard but good , that would be enough as i think ...

Second , i still don't know how the slow motion would be part of the online game  ... If you are used to kill a monster with 10 secs so actually you wasted 10 secs from the Game day ( say it would be 6 hours )  >>10 secs(real) =  10secs(game) , so in slow motion with 3X you will kill it with 30 secs , so when you go back to the realtime gaming you would have wasted in real 30 secs but should just have wasted 10 secs in the game which isnt ...cuz the game couted 30 secs with the realtime .

With the Wii? It's not that different from those tennis games. ;) The Wii (like mostl) consoles can't support an MMO though, or not like a PC. So you're likely to get limited to offline rpg's, with quite crappy gfx (the Wii isn't a graphical monster :D), but great gameplay.

Get developing! If you want (to make) a game like that! It should be possible with the current technologies, but will take a long time to get it right. And even longer if you never even did anything like that (no, website design doesn't get close).

Originally posted by magiix

Originally posted by techlord

Originally posted by magiix

How do you can be done a  full manipulation of the sword ??? Go

 

Assuming we're using the good ole keyboard & mouse, I would do it in First Person with mouse/cursor system that allows you to draw out your swords attack/guard path|pattern of motion.

 

First , Actually i thought about it but still can't imagine the whole image ... Even if it would be hard but good , that would be enough as i think ...

Second , i still don't know how the slow motion would be part of the online game  ... If you are used to kill a monster with 10 secs so actually you wasted 10 secs from the Game day ( say it would be 6 hours )  >>10 secs(real) =  10secs(game) , so in slow motion with 3X you will kill it with 30 secs , so when you go back to the realtime gaming you would have wasted in real 30 secs but should just have wasted 10 secs in the game which isnt ...cuz the game couted 30 secs with the realtime .

LOL. I'm talking about animation path/pattern of motion for arm-to-sword movement, not, slow motion or bullet time. One could also omit arm/sword animations in favor of fancy particles and texture effects. 

Originally posted by erandur

With the Wii? It's not that different from those tennis games. ;) The Wii (like mostl) consoles can't support an MMO though, or not like a PC. So you're likely to get limited to offline rpg's, with quite crappy gfx (the Wii isn't a graphical monster :D), but great gameplay.

Get developing! If you want (to make) a game like that! It should be possible with the current technologies, but will take a long time to get it right. And even longer if you never even did anything like that (no, website design doesn't get close).

Console-based MMO's are not that far away.  From my perspective, MMOs appear to be the only games keeping `PC` Gaming alive. I would speculate this has more to do with a complex interface requiring a keyboard. Console have keyboards too (I have a bluetooth keyboard for P3). Complex interfaces can be solved with Voice Chat, Voice Commands, and simplified GUIs or other I/O Devices.

In many aspects console I/O devices are more interactive (ie Wii Remote & Nunchuck) which is really disappointing considering the versatility of a PC. Playing Wii Sports with my girlfriend is extremely fun. Wii offers interactive controls and local multiplayer experience that very difficult to find in a PC title. IMHO, it will not be long before consoles start taking over MMOs with better interactivity and local multiplayer features.

Consoles cant beat PCs for versatility, they have the simplicity bonus (and seldom show blue screen) but it will always be easier to 'upgrade' your PC and so gain that little more 'power'.

So why haven't we got Wii controls for our PC? I guess someone has, they just aren't widely available (yet), as soon as they've been built around the copyrights and we've some ported games then we'll be swinging our new mouse around at our PC. Lets face it the Wii is inovative, but is seriously underpowered, the difference between the Wii and PS3 versions of "Force Unleashed" is considerable. With a PC based Wii controller you can run as powerful a game as you can buy a graphics card (etc) to handle.

And a wii style controller would be a nice way of handling a sword.

Consoles still have a long way to go! They claim to have good networking, but it's just not made for networking. I'm just going to give you an example of why it won't work...

Let's say, they are finally able to get decent networking on consoles. Networking -> virusses, there's no doubt about that, everything can have virusses. Don't claim that Macs are failproof, I've seen plenty of macs going down in 20 minutes. ;) So you'll get virusses, malware, possibly even pop-ups while gaming. :D What would you need to solve that? A virus scan, possibly some other software, all the same category.
But, a console with a keyboard, improved networking, virus scanners, etc. Would require it to have some normal memory, instead of just visual memory. Probably a better processor, as RAM is useless without a decent processor. Guess what you'll have in the end? A wannabe computer, which can't be upgraded when it gets old.

Also, Computer games might see a serious boost in performance with DX11. It's still under heavy development, but you'll be able to use your VRAM for normal work, and use your RAM for games (RAM barely gets touched atm). The only Console which might have that, is the Xbox 360 (or by then, 720). And since the current Xbox doesn't even have DX10... And XNA (the most used Xbox development 'platform') doesn't have any plans on going any higher than it is now.... ;)

So don't worry, if DX11 lives up to its expectations, the PC might have its comeback very soon. ;)

Originally posted by erandur

Consoles still have a long way to go! They claim to have good networking, but it's just not made for networking. I'm just going to give you an example of why it won't work...

Let's say, they are finally able to get decent networking on consoles. Networking -> virusses, there's no doubt about that, everything can have virusses. Don't claim that Macs are failproof, I've seen plenty of macs going down in 20 minutes. ;) So you'll get virusses, malware, possibly even pop-ups while gaming. :D What would you need to solve that? A virus scan, possibly some other software, all the same category.
But, a console with a keyboard, improved networking, virus scanners, etc. Would require it to have some normal memory, instead of just visual memory. Probably a better processor, as RAM is useless without a decent processor. Guess what you'll have in the end? A wannabe computer, which can't be upgraded when it gets old.

Also, Computer games might see a serious boost in performance with DX11. It's still under heavy development, but you'll be able to use your VRAM for normal work, and use your RAM for games (RAM barely gets touched atm). The only Console which might have that, is the Xbox 360 (or by then, 720). And since the current Xbox doesn't even have DX10... And XNA (the most used Xbox development 'platform') doesn't have any plans on going any higher than it is now.... ;)

So don't worry, if DX11 lives up to its expectations, the PC might have its comeback very soon. ;)

Viruses are a possibility. However, just like the hardware and software, development for consoles isnt `opened` like PCs.

For me, as a game developer, the issue isnt PC vs Console, its developing a game for widest audience. I already anticipate a very small niche market developing my MMO for the PC. As the consoles claim more PC gamers, I fear that niche may be reduced to zelch.

Originally posted by techlord

Originally posted by erandur

Consoles still have a long way to go! They claim to have good networking, but it's just not made for networking. I'm just going to give you an example of why it won't work...

Let's say, they are finally able to get decent networking on consoles. Networking -> virusses, there's no doubt about that, everything can have virusses. Don't claim that Macs are failproof, I've seen plenty of macs going down in 20 minutes. ;) So you'll get virusses, malware, possibly even pop-ups while gaming. :D What would you need to solve that? A virus scan, possibly some other software, all the same category.
But, a console with a keyboard, improved networking, virus scanners, etc. Would require it to have some normal memory, instead of just visual memory. Probably a better processor, as RAM is useless without a decent processor. Guess what you'll have in the end? A wannabe computer, which can't be upgraded when it gets old.

Also, Computer games might see a serious boost in performance with DX11. It's still under heavy development, but you'll be able to use your VRAM for normal work, and use your RAM for games (RAM barely gets touched atm). The only Console which might have that, is the Xbox 360 (or by then, 720). And since the current Xbox doesn't even have DX10... And XNA (the most used Xbox development 'platform') doesn't have any plans on going any higher than it is now.... ;)

So don't worry, if DX11 lives up to its expectations, the PC might have its comeback very soon. ;)

 

Viruses are a possibility. However, just like the hardware and software, development for consoles isnt `opened` like PCs.

For me, as a game developer, the issue isnt PC vs Console, its developing a game for widest audience. I already anticipate a very small niche market developing my MMO for the PC. As the consoles claim more PC gamers, I fear that niche may be reduced to zelch.

You, as a game developer, must have heard of XNA! ;) It's made by Microsoft, and supports both the xbox360 and PC. Publishing the game for PC is free, but requires you to publish it yourself. For the xbox360, MS charges $100/year, so you can upload everything to the Xbox Marketplace. Where all the xbox owners can go, and download/buy your game.

BTW, feel free to PM the link to your MMO project, i'm interested to see how others' work. :) I'm already working on 2 small indie MMORPG's, and I love other people's work. :D

Hi erandur,

Yes I'm aware of XNA. However, I've been developing my MMO Server/Client for the past two years with DarkBASIC Pro for Windows. Perhaps, when I complete the DBP Client, I will pursue development of a XNA Client. You can check out my work in progress here. I'm interested in checking out your projects as well.

I can't recommend XNA, especially not if you're trying to make a PC game. XNA was made for xbox, so using it on PC has 'some' disadvantages. That, and it's goign to get dated quite fast. :) I've heard that it isn't support DX10, and probably won't support DX11.

Anyway, I'll leave that choice up to you, I personally don't really like it, but I did spent €100 on books about it. :) Anyway, I don't have anything to show.. yet. I'm working on an MMO by the same company of fallen2020 ( http://www.fallen2020.com/Index.html ). But I'm working on a fantasy MMO they're making, I find fantasy models easier to make. :D
I already looked at your project a while ago, and I like the concept. :) Although it's always a bit early to say if a game is good/bad untill you played it. ^^
 

good old Die By The Sword

www.fileplanet.com/11123/10000/fileinfo/Die-By-The-Sword 

Originally posted by blotz

good old Die By The Sword

www.fileplanet.com/11123/10000/fileinfo/Die-By-The-Sword 

I don't know blotz if people would still like to see something like this ( i think not) ... It was good at it's time ^^

of corse  the game's time is over  ( since many years allready ) ... it is direct x 3 or something

but i have never seen anything with more "controll" over sword movement

as far as i remember you could even record a move and use it  as a special 

Heres an example of how think of an easy to do weapon manipulation.

Situation: your character is face to face with a single enemy. Both are in a defencive stance. Strafing around each other, looking for a good opening. Your in a first person view (maybe) you press your mouse and draw a few lines on your screen. As you release the mouse button, your character will attempt to follow these lines with his swords. For example your drew a Z. As you execute this more your char will lunge forward and swipe the sword from the left to right, than down diagonally and than sweep the blade from left to right again, but aiming lower. If your enemy was guarding his left (your right) than you probably connected with your hit. If your enemy was ready with a parry you probably failed to make a full Z.

This kind of system would probably be quite easy to make. It would give the player some more time to plan their strikes ahead and make sword combat something more than just a mouse-button-mash-fest.

Originally posted by artacq

Heres an example of how think of an easy to do weapon manipulation.

Situation: your character is face to face with a single enemy. Both are in a defencive stance. Strafing around each other, looking for a good opening. Your in a first person view (maybe) you press your mouse and draw a few lines on your screen. As you release the mouse button, your character will attempt to follow these lines with his swords. For example your drew a Z. As you execute this more your char will lunge forward and swipe the sword from the left to right, than down diagonally and than sweep the blade from left to right again, but aiming lower. If your enemy was guarding his left (your right) than you probably connected with your hit. If your enemy was ready with a parry you probably failed to make a full Z.

 

This kind of system would probably be quite easy to make. It would give the player some more time to plan their strikes ahead and make sword combat something more than just a mouse-button-mash-fest.

A more elaborate description of what I described in post #24. Great minds think alike!

Draw Lines (straight & curve) that represent slash/wield strikes. The MB is held down during the `slash` and released upon completion.

Other possibilities include:

Draw Paths for movement using freeform, splines, etc. The MB is used to drop waypoints/spline points along the path.
 

Mouse moves Cursor along X/Y. The MB is used to generate a Burst (instant Line Of Sight Damage) or Projectile when pressed/released.

Draw Symbols (Runes) that activate Spells. The MB is held/release to draw symbols. When the symbol is completed (via Digital Character Recognition) then the spell is activated.

I like your visual presentation of examples techlord. I'm not sure I can picture what you mean with Blasting, thought. What I'm thinking (in the case of using swords) is to press and hold the attack button while making a swinging motion. When you move the mouse quickly your sword would make a quick swipe but you could also swing slower (holding the mouse button down longer) and make swing stretch forward into the opponent for a more powerful attack. But relating to ballistics of say a cannon you could use the arc of the swing motion and the speed for distance.