Originally posted by Josher

Vanilla WOW had an acceptable death penalty.  It did sting back then when money wasn't flowing like candy.  A light or worthless death penalty is WAR.  When you use it as a method of travel is when it becomes a nuisance rather than a deterent.  EQ's death penalty was not only annoying, it was a kick to the nuts.  People who tolerated a penalty that could result in hours of lost playtime are simply masochistic or just bored and have nothing better to do with their time.  It didn't make the game harder.  It made it more time consuming.  Time consuming isn't difficulty.  Killing 1000 pigs in a group without moving instead of 30 pigs solo doesn't make the game harder.  It just drags out the experience, because we all know EQ didn't have content.  It just had grinding.  Lots and lots of grinding and sitting down between fights which even made downtime a grind.  That changed through the years, but it shifted when Blizzard came into the picture.

Old MMOs were awesome for THEIR TIME when there was little to compare them to.  They're not awesome now.  Much like DOom was great in its day, but pales compared to today's FPSs.

Having no in game map didn't make the game harder.  It made it annoying and tedious.  Killing 20000 pigs to level didn't mean you had intelligence.  It meant you had patience.  Camping a spawn didn't take brains once you got the group together.  It just required monotonous repetition for hours.  Having no quests didn't mean it took more skill to level.  You don't HAVE TO do any quests in WOW.  You can go randomly kill mobs if you want. 

I just don't find fun in games the artificially stretch out the time it takes to accomplish something.  Theres a limit.  No one wants it handed to you, but you shouldn't have to treat it like a job either.  EQ had to be played like a job.  You HAD TO dedicate hours at a time to accomplish anything.  Many hours.  Not fun.

Don't mistake nostalgia with good gameplay. 

 

 

 

And here is the root of the whole problem. What does the amount of time it takes to do something matter when you are talking about games that are not supposed to have an ending?
 

Oblivion has an ending, once you get to a certain spot you have won the game. MMOs are not supposed to have a "You won" so why does it matter how long it takes to accomplish things (withijn reason).

And people like to say how EQ forced you to spend so much time and that is just not true. EQ didnt force you to do anything you didnt want to do. I played for 4 years straight and never was forced to play any longer then i wanted to. I certainly wasnt a die hard player, i was in the military at the time and had a wife and kids. I never was forced to run a 7+ hour raid because i chose not to run them. I played how i wanted to play, sure i was not able to get every piece of loot in the game with my play style but i never ran out of things to do.

The people who complain that EQ made you play too much are those who wanted everything the game offered but were unwilling to put in the time it took to get some of those things. That wasnt me though, i just dealt with the fact that i would never get a drop of Naggy, i didnt whine about it.

This is a great read and I have put my two cents in. I just wanted to point out that I couldn't believe I read this right here though :

"because we all no EQ didn't have content"

That I think is the first time I have ever heard that. I have read tons of forums logged a ton of EQ hours and well if anything I thought it was MOSTLY common knowledge that EQ has a staggering amount of content. Infact a daunting amount of content.

Look I played the hell out of EQ and also I took my fair spin of WOW 2 years maybe a little more. So I know both games. Its pretty obvious you do not have the EQ experience that alot of us other players have that also have WOW experience also :) You can argue that but everything in your post screams your basing your arguments on things you read.

Also its obvious that you are younger. I won't belittle by callind you a kid but I can tell you are younger because you have the ....Everyone should get an equal share of the pie...and its ok you did your best here is your reward for trying... type mentality. The self entitled generation of why should I be punished for my actions! Its cool its not your fault its the way you where raised. Also want to point out not labeling a whole generation but ALOT of  you of the younger generation have this mentality.

Its cool it looks like alot of us come from a different gaming time than you and experienced EQ and WOW. This isn't nostalgia speaking at least on my end its the fact in my opinion I have no doubt today MMO's are easier, less rewarding, less social and with less features fluff  w/e and  well sucky comapred to the MMO's I started on.

Originally posted by beeker255

This is a great read and I have put my two cents in. I just wanted to point out that I couldn't believe I read this right here though :

 

"because we all no EQ didn't have content"

 

That I think is the first time I have ever heard that. I have read tons of forums logged a ton of EQ hours and well if anything I thought it was MOSTLY common knowledge that EQ has a staggering amount of content. Infact a daunting amount of content.

 

Look I played the hell out of EQ and also I took my fair spin of WOW 2 years maybe a little more. So I know both games. Its pretty obvious you do not have the EQ experience that alot of us other players have that also have WOW experience also :) You can argue that but everything in your post screams your basing your arguments on things you read.

Also its obvious that you are younger. I won't belittle by callind you a kid but I can tell you are younger because you have the ....Everyone should get an equal share of the pie...and its ok you did your best here is your reward for trying... type mentality. The self entitled generation of why should I be punished for my actions! Its cool its not your fault its the way you where raised. Also want to point out not labeling a whole generation but ALOT of  you of the younger generation have this mentality.

Its cool it looks like alot of us come from a different gaming time than you and experienced EQ and WOW. This isn't nostalgia speaking at least on my end its the fact in my opinion I have no doubt today MMO's are easier, less rewarding, less social and with less features fluff  w/e and  well sucky comapred to the MMO's I started on.

 

Very well said.  The "Next Gen" MMOs are missing something and the older players know it and the newer players are learning.  IN MY OPINION its because the new games lack the kind of communities that EQ and OU had during there haydays.  One of the main causes is the easy style of gameplay and more soloable content.

Originally posted by safwd

And here is the root of the whole problem. What does the amount of time it takes to do something matter when you are talking about games that are not supposed to have an ending?
 

Oblivion has an ending, once you get to a certain spot you have won the game. MMOs are not supposed to have a "You won" so why does it matter how long it takes to accomplish things (withijn reason).

And people like to say how EQ forced you to spend so much time and that is just not true. EQ didnt force you to do anything you didnt want to do. I played for 4 years straight and never was forced to play any longer then i wanted to. I certainly wasnt a die hard player, i was in the military at the time and had a wife and kids. I never was forced to run a 7+ hour raid because i chose not to run them. I played how i wanted to play, sure i was not able to get every piece of loot in the game with my play style but i never ran out of things to do.

The people who complain that EQ made you play too much are those who wanted everything the game offered but were unwilling to put in the time it took to get some of those things. That wasnt me though, i just dealt with the fact that i would never get a drop of Naggy, i didnt whine about it.

If you attach TIME SPENT PLAYING with fun then thats your perogative.  I never raced while playing a MMO.  Its pointless.  What was I racing to?  BUT, If its overly repetitive with little reward for all that time spent, then its just not fun.  EQ, in its prime was just grinding mobs or camping dungeons or grinding mobs WHILE camping in dungeons.   DAOC was simlar.  How many hours did you have to stand in one spot and kill trees in your 40s?  YES, on a basic level WOW was grinding too, but you'd be ignorant  to say it felt the same.  Questing and exploring was NOT the same in WOW as it was in previous MMOs.  Not by a long shot.  It felt fresh.

If EQ, even in its current state was more fun than WOW, then millions would've went to EQ.  It had more expansions, more EQ-like "content".  But that didn't matter.    If your PC could play WOW, you could play EQ.  People would've played WOW for a month, HEARD about how awesome EQ was and jumped ship, kind like many vets said would happen 4+ years ago.  As we know it didn't happen.  Very few, if its even measurable looked at WOW, said "This is boring" and ran off to go play DAOC, EQ, UO, SWG, and so on.  It didn't happen because those older MMOs played as old as they were.   They felt old, even for people new to the genre.  

EQ was certainly harder and more unforgiving and time consuming.  Its a fact.  But it did NOT make it more fun.  If it did, well....people ALWAYS congregate towards games they find fun to play.  WOW is fun, regardless of its ease.  WOW did have its difficulty.  It still does.  Its just not rammed down your throat.  You have to want to take on the tougher challenges which is another reason why people prefer it.   Thats why millions play.  Its not advertising.  Its not a name.  Its not because its the only option, LIKE when EQ came out.  Its because Bliizard took all the good bits and made a more enjoyable game for MOST people.  Not all people.  Most people.   If you're bitter, well, thats your problem.   MMOs aren't just for nerds and shut-ins anymore like in the 90s and early 2000s.  I know that pisses people off, but hey, thats life.

Theres a reason the only people who prefer older MMOs are the ones who started playing them in their prime.  Theres a reason kids today don't talk about how amazing the NES was.  You stick them in front of it after playing their XBox360 or PS3 and what kind of reaction do you think they'll have?  Although, WOW is kind of an older MMO now, and nothing that has come out after it has been better.  Its going to take Blizzard to actually revitalize the genre they've inherited.

Originally posted by Josher

EQ, in its prime was just grinding mobs or camping dungeons or grinding mobs WHILE camping in dungeons.  

Lol.

EQ is this:

www.youtube.com/watch

L2Play an learn to appreciate the world around you when you play. Smell the flowers, watch your guild grow. Make friends, discover new lands, watch your city grow and your faction fight. You're not in a world unless you want to be.

Maybe you didn't belong in Norrath but if all you saw was grinding then you didn't look far enough because I know it's about more than just killing mobs. Killing mob wasn't the reason I logged into EQ.

Players made EQ.

Originally posted by Josher

because we all know EQ didn't have content 

haha, you must be joking

Here you go:  everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zlvlchart.html 400 zones to explore.

Originally posted by beeker255

This is a great read and I have put my two cents in. I just wanted to point out that I couldn't believe I read this right here though :

 

"because we all no EQ didn't have content"

 

That I think is the first time I have ever heard that. I have read tons of forums logged a ton of EQ hours and well if anything I thought it was MOSTLY common knowledge that EQ has a staggering amount of content. Infact a daunting amount of content.

 

Look I played the hell out of EQ and also I took my fair spin of WOW 2 years maybe a little more. So I know both games. Its pretty obvious you do not have the EQ experience that alot of us other players have that also have WOW experience also :) You can argue that but everything in your post screams your basing your arguments on things you read.

Also its obvious that you are younger. I won't belittle by callind you a kid but I can tell you are younger because you have the ....Everyone should get an equal share of the pie...and its ok you did your best here is your reward for trying... type mentality. The self entitled generation of why should I be punished for my actions! Its cool its not your fault its the way you where raised. Also want to point out not labeling a whole generation but ALOT of  you of the younger generation have this mentality.

Its cool it looks like alot of us come from a different gaming time than you and experienced EQ and WOW. This isn't nostalgia speaking at least on my end its the fact in my opinion I have no doubt today MMO's are easier, less rewarding, less social and with less features fluff  w/e and  well sucky comapred to the MMO's I started on.

 

This is really at the heart of the matter.  When my kids were playing youth sports, everyone would get a trophy no matter the outcome of the event.  The "wisdom" was that you didn't want to scar their self-image by not rewarding them.  Also, the parents would get upset if their child didn't get rewarded, and there is no wrath like that of a parent scorned!  Now that I have grandchildren, I see this unfortunate trend continuing.  We have learned nothing from our past mistakes.

I see the "entitlement generation" mentality in R/L most every day.  People (not just kids) feel like they should have anything they want when they want it, do anything they want anytime they want to, just because they are "entitled"  to it.  After all, society has told them they are the most important person in the world and the universe revolves around them.  And that is the problem with MMOs today.

Today's MMOs tell the player "In our game you can do anything you want to, how you want to, and we'll give you every reward available in the game; all you have to do is just show up and complete a few simple tasks."  Therefore, people expect to have their desires satisfied with the least amount of effort.

I played both EQ and WoW, and frankly became bored with WoW quickly because it just didn't challenge me.  There is no denying that WoW is spectacularly successful, but I think that is more of a reflection of the generation playing the game than the quality of the game.  It is more attuned with the "little risk-large reward' mentality that is so prevalent today.

Ion

EDIT:  speeling korrections

Nostalgia aint what it used to be...

Most MMO's don't have tough puzzles any more, for example, because as soon as it gets solved it ends up on a site like YouTube, wowhead, alakhazam etc.etc.

Ergo most MMO's are simplistic clickfests to please the ADD or "gamer with job".

Strangely the Internet makes MMO's possible, but also in a way damages the MMO scene.

Originally posted by Fibsdk

Im hearing that the old grinding of EQ is no good but the new questing of WoW is much better. So it was a grind when you went out and decided that sitting at this camp and killing 50+ Orcs is the best exp i can get at this level, but it is an epic quest when some guy with a ? over his head tells you he wants you to go kill 50+ Quillboars. The grind is the exact same. The insane exp and leveling speed of WoW is what makes it seem less grindy then EQ, not the mob smashing.

 

There is a different. In EQ, you kill only ONE mob for the entire level because that is the BEST EXP per effort. That is NO LONGER true for WOW because the mob with the best exp CHANGES with the quest.

Thus, you get to travel over to DIFFERENT places and killing DIFFERERNT mobs for the same level. Thus, you can get see and experiences different things. And we haven't got into different types of quest ... like boss fight where you fight only ONE special mob and then move on.

Quest grinding has a LOT more variety than single mob grinding.

And WOW *is* much better, and a lot more fun. I played both games. EQ is a lot more boring compared to WOW.

Originally posted by chinchilla32

Nostalgia aint what it used to be...

Most MMO's don't have tough puzzles any more, for example, because as soon as it gets solved it ends up on a site like YouTube, wowhead, alakhazam etc.etc.

Ergo most MMO's are simplistic clickfests to please the ADD or "gamer with job".

Strangely the Internet makes MMO's possible, but also in a way damages the MMO scene.

 

You play MMO for puzzles? If you want puzzles, go back to adventure games.

Most MMORPGs are hack-n-slash like Diablo and it is about killing, power-ups and cool loot.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Fibsdk

Im hearing that the old grinding of EQ is no good but the new questing of WoW is much better. So it was a grind when you went out and decided that sitting at this camp and killing 50+ Orcs is the best exp i can get at this level, but it is an epic quest when some guy with a ? over his head tells you he wants you to go kill 50+ Quillboars. The grind is the exact same. The insane exp and leveling speed of WoW is what makes it seem less grindy then EQ, not the mob smashing.

 

 

There is a different. In EQ, you kill only ONE mob for the entire level because that is the BEST EXP per effort. That is NO LONGER true for WOW because the mob with the best exp CHANGES with the quest. But wait, now you also have to loot 20 gizzards..that is the difference!! that is what makes WoW beat EQ!!.

Thus, you get to travel over to DIFFERENT places and killing DIFFERERNT mobs for the same level. Thus, you can get see and experiences different things. And we haven't got into different types of quest ... like boss fight where you fight only ONE special mob and then move on.

Quest grinding has a LOT more variety than single mob grinding.

And WOW *is* much better, and a lot more fun. I played both games. EQ is a lot more boring compared to WOW.

Yes after you kill 10.000 boars you now get to go to a different location and kill 10.000 turtles. Great example bud. The only new thing you experience is a new npc witha new name telling you to kill lots of something else. But wait now you also have to loot 20 gizzards!!. That's why WoW is better!!.

EQ gave you a reason to create full groups. In WoW you have 4 quests for an instance. Once you complete those quests then it's back to soloing. WoW is 'THE' solo MMORPG of them all. Not why i play MMORPGS. Get a particular hard quest you can do by yourself? you ask somebody to help you. When you are done it's back to soloing again.

Originally posted by Fibsdk

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Fibsdk

Im hearing that the old grinding of EQ is no good but the new questing of WoW is much better. So it was a grind when you went out and decided that sitting at this camp and killing 50+ Orcs is the best exp i can get at this level, but it is an epic quest when some guy with a ? over his head tells you he wants you to go kill 50+ Quillboars. The grind is the exact same. The insane exp and leveling speed of WoW is what makes it seem less grindy then EQ, not the mob smashing.

 

 

There is a different. In EQ, you kill only ONE mob for the entire level because that is the BEST EXP per effort. That is NO LONGER true for WOW because the mob with the best exp CHANGES with the quest. But wait, now you also have to loot 20 gizzards..that is the difference!! that is what makes WoW beat EQ!!.

Thus, you get to travel over to DIFFERENT places and killing DIFFERERNT mobs for the same level. Thus, you can get see and experiences different things. And we haven't got into different types of quest ... like boss fight where you fight only ONE special mob and then move on.

Quest grinding has a LOT more variety than single mob grinding.

And WOW *is* much better, and a lot more fun. I played both games. EQ is a lot more boring compared to WOW.

 

Yes after you kill 10.000 boars you now get to go to a different location and kill 10.000 turtles. Great example bud. The only new thing you experience is a new npc witha new name telling you to kill lots of something else.

EQ gave you a reason to create full groups. In WoW you have 4 quests for an instance. Once you complete those quests then it's back to soloing. WoW is 'THE' solo MMORPG of them all. Not why i play MMORPGS. Get a particular hard quest you can do by yourself? you ask somebody to help you. When you are done it's back to soloing again.

I am not a fan of all these solo play mmo's, If i wanted to play solo id put in a ps3 or 360 game. which has 100X better solo content.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by chinchilla32

Nostalgia aint what it used to be...

Most MMO's don't have tough puzzles any more, for example, because as soon as it gets solved it ends up on a site like YouTube, wowhead, alakhazam etc.etc.

Ergo most MMO's are simplistic clickfests to please the ADD or "gamer with job".

Strangely the Internet makes MMO's possible, but also in a way damages the MMO scene.

 

 

You play MMO for puzzles? If you want puzzles, go back to adventure games.

Most MMORPGs are hack-n-slash like Diablo and it is about killing, power-ups and cool loot.

No Most games period are about puzzles/problem solving.  Quests/Missions are nothing more the problems that the player must find the solution too.

Killing, power ups and cool loot are the reward for solving the problem.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Fibsdk

Im hearing that the old grinding of EQ is no good but the new questing of WoW is much better. So it was a grind when you went out and decided that sitting at this camp and killing 50+ Orcs is the best exp i can get at this level, but it is an epic quest when some guy with a ? over his head tells you he wants you to go kill 50+ Quillboars. The grind is the exact same. The insane exp and leveling speed of WoW is what makes it seem less grindy then EQ, not the mob smashing.

 

 

There is a different. In EQ, you kill only ONE mob for the entire level because that is the BEST EXP per effort. That is NO LONGER true for WOW because the mob with the best exp CHANGES with the quest.

Thus, you get to travel over to DIFFERENT places and killing DIFFERERNT mobs for the same level. Thus, you can get see and experiences different things. And we haven't got into different types of quest ... like boss fight where you fight only ONE special mob and then move on.

Quest grinding has a LOT more variety than single mob grinding.

And WOW *is* much better, and a lot more fun. I played both games. EQ is a lot more boring compared to WOW.

There is a problem wit your logic.  In EQ1 you grouped to go out and exp an you could find a good spot and camp it or you could explorer the zone while killing mobs.  EQ prompted group play where as WOW prompts mostly solo play till the "end game".  

I am not saying EQ is better then WOW or WOW is better then EQ.  What I am saying is that EQ was more reward for myself and others.   I got more enjoyment out of hearing that "Ding" in EQ then I ever did in WoW.  

EQ never showed you where to hunt or if you could even kill the MOB, so people were forced to explorer, take great risks and were reward in finding the best camp spots.  There was no mini map showing the location of the uber cave system to explore.  NO you random found them, and then gathered a group to go explorer it.

WoW you only go to the spot that your quest tells you to go, you kill the mobs you need and head back to get another quest.  EQ you HAD to explorer to find stuff to kill and sometimes you found raid mobs and wiped.

Originally posted by Fibsdk

I really do not see how putting in a severe death penalty makes content harder. That's because you don't understand a few simple concepts. That's ok i am here to explain it to you. If there is a severe penalty in dying like having to retrieve your corpse with your gear where you died +losing exp means raids that take 4 hours to complete suddently can take 10+ hours with corpse recovery. Time most people don't have. There is no try again later. If you can complete a raid in 4 hours because you end up as a ghost outside the instance upon dying vs having to do corpse retrival for 30+ people taking 10 hours then already there is a direct correlation between a steep death penalty making content harder. If you can keep rushing a boss right after dying then naturally this makes an encounter easier

I really do not see why a player deserves respect for being max level in EQ or WoW.  All it means is that you know how to level a character in the game.  Respect is earned by how you interact with other players and what level you are and what raids you have done is only a minute part of that.  Beyond that you are really getting into 'epeen' territory. I agree you shouldn't respect somebodys level. I never have. You respect people on how well they play the game and how well they play their class. in EQ there were players able to pull off the impossible in groups like locking down 10+ mobs while fighting 5. Something maybe 1% off the playerbase would be able to pull off. They used an incredible amount of multitasking abillity keeping it cool where others would surely panic. Those things is what i respect. If that person acts like an ass to the rest of the community they still get the respect of being an awesome players. Many jerks have gotten admiration from the masses from being stellar players but assholes in personalities.

The 'real' game in WoW is the journey.  It is simply that people make the mistake of trying to judge their accomplishments by how much of the game they 'beat' and not how much fun they hade.  I have had so much fun in WoW leveling characters to 60 and beyond that I did it nine times. 100% agree there. The journey is what matters to me. Not the end game. Once i reach the end game i also reach the end of my interest.

I fully agree that a good MMORPG will teach players how to play smarter but dying in a RPG is part of the learning process and putting silly penalties on it is just going to stiffle creativity. Wrong. If you have no penalty you don't care about dying pure and simple. People should care about dying. people only become smarter if there is a slap on the wrist for making a mistake just as there would be in real life. If people didn't feel pain from sticking their hands into open fire they would do it more often.

Personally I just do not get the 'risk makes the reward sweeter' attitude.   The reward is in accomplishing a task, beating a challenge or helping other people.  It should be irrelevant whtehr you had to gamble to get there. You must be one of the very few people on this planet there doesn't love something extra because they had to fight harder for it. There is no difference in this regard when it comes to the cyber world winning pixels.

 

So what you are saying is that heavy death penalties make raid take longer but not actually harder.  So it is actually just an endurance challenge. 

'Rushing a boss right after dying' only makes the encounter easier if you learned from your previous mistakes.  If you did not learn then you are just running head-first into a wall over and over.   It's not like a boss mob is gonna go and say "well you tried killing me 5 times today and failed each time so I will just roll over and die on the 6th try".    Adding extra downtime between tries is not gonna make the encounter any easier or harder.

I am not against having any death penalties in a game.  However, I am against harsh penalties like XP loss or corpse recovery runs.  The encounter where you died is not gonna get any easier just because you get to try it again after a minute rather than an hour.   You either learn from your mistakes or you don't.  If someone insists on sticking their hand in the fire then they are not gonna stop doing that just becasue we make them wait longer before trying again. 

I most definetly enjoy things that I worked harder for.  I just do not see how gambling on the outcome is going to increase the challenge.  If I want to climb a mountain, it will not get higher just becasue I bet someoen $1000 that I could do it.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by chinchilla32

Nostalgia aint what it used to be...

Most MMO's don't have tough puzzles any more, for example, because as soon as it gets solved it ends up on a site like YouTube, wowhead, alakhazam etc.etc.

Ergo most MMO's are simplistic clickfests to please the ADD or "gamer with job".

Strangely the Internet makes MMO's possible, but also in a way damages the MMO scene.

 

 

You play MMO for puzzles? If you want puzzles, go back to adventure games.

Most MMORPGs are hack-n-slash like Diablo and it is about killing, power-ups and cool loot.

 

That whooooooshhhh is the sound of it going right over his head.  Might as well leave it alone, you are down to the ones that dont get it.

Haha, This is my first post here I think, but I just had to comment.  For one I agree with everyone here about old mmo's being better and new mmo's being dummed down.  However I really wanted to respond to this guy who thinks that harsh death penalties should be abolished.

For one, the fact that you seem so concerned about them, helps to show why they work.  You hate the fact that the penalty is harsh and it "annoys" you so much, so your more likely to avoid making stupid decisions that will get you killed.  Also if your the type of player that hates the penalty so much that you quit, then you help to rid the game of someone who obviously doesn't want to be challenged or cant learn from their mistakes, or perhaps worst of all is the type of person that would quit if the going got tough.

More importantly, harsh death penalties mean that players who do poorly do not advance (or at least advance at a much slower rate).  This keeps them from repeating their same mistakes over and over because if they were to do that, they would actually decrease in level.  If they did continue to die by making the same mistakes over and over again, their level would likely reflect where they should be in the game.  Its not perfect, but for the most part it weeds out the bad players or forces them to learn.  At the same time it allows good players to be able to group with people that most likely had to go through a similar proccess that they did to reach their level.

In any case, although corpse runs and death penalties in EQ and other games were considered harsh, they really wernt the end of the world.  They did hurt of course, but any player who didnt want to "waste time" or had any friends, could get a rez or someone to summon their corpse and all that. 

The bottom line, is that I have no problem with the newer crop of MMO's, although they are not for me.  I'm looking for a challenge, as well as a world to explore, not something that feels like a game for children with add.  As far as WOW goes, you guys need to relax.  We are essentially upset that there are no real modern mmo's for us to play and enjoy.  So relax and don't take it personaly when we criticize WOW or the elements of modern MMO's that we dislike.  You have a ton of MMO's to choose from and plenty of people to play them with you.  The reason why we (oldschool mmo people) seem to be whining, or often talk badly about your games, is that there is not much for us to play and all the new MMO's seem to cater to the no risk all reward type of mentality.

Adding extra downtime between tries is not gonna make the encounter any easier or harder. Of course it does. If time does not permit you to complete the task then that makes it harder. I would think that would be pretty obvious. If you screw up twice and don't have enough time for a third try then you failed. If you have time to  try the mob 5 - 6 times the chance of success increases. The mob isn't suddently stronger because you have to retrieve corpse on a mob that's pretty obvious. If you thought that was my argument then maybe you should look at what a timesink actually does instead of trying to figure out my point.

I am not against having any death penalties in a game.  However, I am against harsh penalties like XP loss or corpse recovery runs.  The encounter where you died is not gonna get any easier just because you get to try it again after a minute rather than an hour.   You either learn from your mistakes or you don't.  If someone insists on sticking their hand in the fire then they are not gonna stop doing that just becasue we make them wait longer before trying again. Of course you are against harsh death penalties. You are a casual player wanting instant gratification. The easier a game is for you and the less time you have to spend doing something is what matters to you. That's fine. Nobody is going to win any argument here about what your prefered playstyle is. It would be pretty stupid of me to tell you that what YOU should want in a game. Having said that yes a mob does get easier to defeat if you can kill it trying 20 times within one minute as opposed to 3 times during an hour. Again the mob is not any stronger or weaker but the chance of success is what counts as hard or easy. Since people don't have unlimited time it is a pretty good factor if something is easy or hard. If i can wash the floor in 1 minute it was an easy job. If it would take me 10 hours it would have been a hard job. You seem to think i claimed mobs would instantly become harder ..no the encounter and chance for success would be

I most definetly enjoy things that I worked harder for.  I just do not see how gambling on the outcome is going to increase the challenge.  If I want to climb a mountain, it will not get higher just becasue I bet someoen $1000 that I could do it. I don't quite understand your gambling analogy. If there is a random factor in anything then naturally things become harder. I can't see how you can logically claim different. If an item has 10% chance to drop then that would be harder to get than an item that has 90% chance to drop. If i had to work all summer mowing lawns to afford a pocket bike as opposed to having a mom and dad buy it for me then naturally i will appreciate that pocket bike more. You will be surprised to know most people feel this way.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Fibsdk

Im hearing that the old grinding of EQ is no good but the new questing of WoW is much better. So it was a grind when you went out and decided that sitting at this camp and killing 50+ Orcs is the best exp i can get at this level, but it is an epic quest when some guy with a ? over his head tells you he wants you to go kill 50+ Quillboars. The grind is the exact same. The insane exp and leveling speed of WoW is what makes it seem less grindy then EQ, not the mob smashing.

 

 

There is a different. In EQ, you kill only ONE mob for the entire level because that is the BEST EXP per effort. That is NO LONGER true for WOW because the mob with the best exp CHANGES with the quest.

Thus, you get to travel over to DIFFERENT places and killing DIFFERERNT mobs for the same level. Thus, you can get see and experiences different things. And we haven't got into different types of quest ... like boss fight where you fight only ONE special mob and then move on.

Quest grinding has a LOT more variety than single mob grinding.

And WOW *is* much better, and a lot more fun. I played both games. EQ is a lot more boring compared to WOW.

 

There is a problem wit your logic.  In EQ1 you grouped to go out and exp an you could find a good spot and camp it or you could explorer the zone while killing mobs.  EQ prompted group play where as WOW prompts mostly solo play till the "end game".  

I am not saying EQ is better then WOW or WOW is better then EQ.  What I am saying is that EQ was more reward for myself and others.   I got more enjoyment out of hearing that "Ding" in EQ then I ever did in WoW.  

EQ never showed you where to hunt or if you could even kill the MOB, so people were forced to explorer, take great risks and were reward in finding the best camp spots.  There was no mini map showing the location of the uber cave system to explore.  NO you random found them, and then gathered a group to go explorer it.

WoW you only go to the spot that your quest tells you to go, you kill the mobs you need and head back to get another quest.  EQ you HAD to explorer to find stuff to kill and sometimes you found raid mobs and wiped.

You could do all those things in WOW as well.  Named elite mobs and outdoor bosses were there.  You had to search for them though.  Some quests prompted you, but whats wrong with an NPC telling you about a menace to investigate or some cool dungeon?  WHy is that such a problem for people?  You didn't HAVE TO read the quests you know.   WOW always promoted grouping up and exploring dungeons.   There are quite a bit of them before you hit 60 or 70 or 80.  Its where all the best rewards were.  You weren't forced to do an equation to figure out the best EXP/hr.   Thats the beauty of WOW and how it changed the whole SPAWN camping concept.   You were always on the move.  It was fun.  Group and have fun OR solo and have fun.  You had an actual choice.  Soloing in EQ was torture.   It was that or group up for a very long time in one spot.  Even in dungeons, you sat in a spot and waited for the spawns.  YES, that changed eventually, but too little too late.

Remember, if there was something like WOWhead back in 99, the whole concept of exploration in EQ wouldn't even exist.   Every inch would've been drawn up and posted as soon as the first person explored the area.  Its not like BLizzard forced you to use the map in WOW.  You never had to hit "M" and disabling the min-map took , oh 10 seconds.  YOu smart EQ vets should've been clever enough to know that=)  YOu could've made you death penalty harsher too by dropping some gold on the ground or even some gear, but I imagine your didn't.  WHY?  Because the game didn't force you to do it.  Given the choice, you prefered the easier way.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by chinchilla32

Nostalgia aint what it used to be...

Most MMO's don't have tough puzzles any more, for example, because as soon as it gets solved it ends up on a site like YouTube, wowhead, alakhazam etc.etc.

Ergo most MMO's are simplistic clickfests to please the ADD or "gamer with job".

Strangely the Internet makes MMO's possible, but also in a way damages the MMO scene.

 

 

You play MMO for puzzles? If you want puzzles, go back to adventure games.

Most MMORPGs are hack-n-slash like Diablo and it is about killing, power-ups and cool loot.

No Most games period are about puzzles/problem solving.  Quests/Missions are nothing more the problems that the player must find the solution too.

Killing, power ups and cool loot are the reward for solving the problem.

Apparently most people fail to understand what "MMORPG" stands for.

MMO means that it should not only allow for the interaction of hundreds if not thousands of players simultaneously, it should ENCOURAGE it with incentives to interact whether it be for crafting, grouping, or just for fun.

RPG means an in-depth, customizable character that you are constantly progressing and achieving new heights with.  These new generation of gamers only seem to care about meaningless purple text that will be out-dated before they can blink.  Character customization comes in many forms, gear should not be the only focus since gear can come and go but the character will still remain.

Perhaps this is the mentality of a gamer who began with less restrictive, no "class" defining gameplay in Asheron's Call, but what I don't understand is someone who would NOT want more freedom in their game.  For what it is, WoW is a decent online game with a chat room (ala D2 which was great) but to me it is far from an MMO -OR- RPG.  It's average in both of those respects.