It's exactly how I said.

You get 'kill xy gobbos' quests and you - sorry - CAN kill mobs to level your skills (since how would you spar with anyone if you're alone)...

The tank/heal/dd-system as was critizised is, in its very essence, a system of PvE. Instancing, questing, dungeonrunning, raiding (like 20 people vs. a AI-controlled boss), things like that.

DFO does not have this (and probably won't need it, time will tell), so DFO is not a very good example of alternative PvE. In fact it's only an example of 'close to no' PvE at all...

Or the other way around, a tank/heal/dd-system does only apply in PvE situations, PvP is a different party alltogether

M

Originally posted by Meridion

It's exactly how I said.

You get 'kill xy gobbos' quests and you - sorry - CAN kill mobs to level your skills (since how would you spar with anyone if you're alone)...

The tank/heal/dd-system as was critizised is, in its very essence, a system of PvE. Instancing, questing, dungeonrunning, raiding (like 20 people vs. a AI-controlled boss), things like that.

DFO does not have this (and probably won't need it, time will tell), so DFO is not a very good example of alternative PvE. In fact it's only an example of 'close to no' PvE at all...

Or the other way around, a tank/heal/dd-system does only apply in PvE situations, PvP is a different party alltogether

M

Ahhhh!

I have always wondered what the "tank/healer/dps" thing was all about. PvE!

But, we do PvE in DF without "tank/healer/dps" all the time agenst dragons, giant golems and monster....it took one group three hours to fight one dragon! So i still dont get the whole mentality that you need a "tank" to do PvE. Its very alien and strange thought for me to say you need one?

I really like this thread now.

It can be done, simply dont put classes in the mmorpg. Make whatever weapon you have equiped at the time define your class in the game. If you equip a bow you are an archer, if you equip a dagger you are a Rogue or a Thief, change to a spear and you are a Knight or a Lancer. There is room in the industry for this kind of innovation to come. I hope a game like this soon hits the market. As well as games that are smart enough to make currency non tradable to get rid of the RMT problem for good.

- "Looks at monster hunter series"

MMO without a tank - Can it be done?

For me yes it can be done, as a matter of fact in all the MMORPG's I have played I never made use of the holy trinity atleast not when I made groups, joining one was different as I notice that most seem to rely on the holy trinity, for me it's much more challenging  going into a dungeon/instance without the holy trinity. And I also agree on that system being far to old to still be used these day's.

What I would like to see "in the future" is similar or even better AI then what we see with singleplayer games, I mean at the moment playing FEAR2 and yeah thats the type of AI I would love seeing one day in a MMORPG, but fully know the tech is not there yet to impliment such a AI in a MMORPG....one day my friend.....one day it will be there........

Originally posted by Reklaw

MMO without a tank - Can it be done?

For me yes it can be done, as a matter of fact in all the MMORPG's I have played I never made use of the holy trinity atleast not when I made groups, joining one was different as I notice that most seem to rely on the holy trinity, for me it's much more challenging  going into a dungeon/instance without the holy trinity. And I also agree on that system being far to old to still be used these day's.

What I would like to see "in the future" is similar or even better AI then what we see with singleplayer games, I mean at the moment playing FEAR2 and yeah thats the type of AI I would love seeing one day in a MMORPG, but fully know the tech is not there yet to impliment such a AI in a MMORPG....one day my friend.....one day it will be there........

This system is already getting translucent and watered down. the iron rule of the holy trinity is long gone, with hybrid and skillable classes in most games...

Even in very traditional class-based-PvE games like LotRO, more than one class can be a 'tank', more than one class can heal if needed and a very broad range of classes can damage and CC.

Still, this system bears as many downsides as it has upsides.

A class system with the holy trinity allows people to _know_ what they can't and can do. you can choose to play a hybrid class if you want to be a hybrid, or you can choose to be a specialized class.

The argument that is - often rightfully - brought up against class-systems is that people are not really free to develop and are fixed to one playstyle unless they create alts; While this is true, it is also something that can be very satisfying: You play a role, everyone knows what you do, doesn't expect you to do anything else, you have your job and you can focus on doing it right. Additionally, if you have classes in a PvE game, you can be sure that the encounters you'll face are pretty much balanced towards the abilities a balanced group setup has; 

It eventually depends on what you want; In a game with fixed classes only so much can go 'wrong', everything is a LOT more plannable, where at the same you buy this controllability with the loss of a huge amount of freedom.

I myself am playing games on both sides of this bench, and I'm enjoying my ride in LotRO as much as the unpredictable fleet fights in EvE...

M

It's really a question of balance.

A 'tank' is one end of the survavibility vs dps specturm while a 'glass cannon' DPSer is the other end.  A tank character traditionally trades high damage output for survivability.  The character can last a long time when being hit by a mob but lacks the serious damage to kill the mob quickly.  A 'glass cannon' on the other hand can't last in the fight long but can finish it quickly through massive damage output.

The basic condition of a winnable fight is that you reduce your opponent's health proportionally more than the opponent reduces your health (ie you kill him before he kills you).  When it comes to bosses or elite fights the equation will favour the mob in a one-on-one fight.  However, the group combined will kill the mob before it kills the group.  A smart AI would then reduce the group in such an order that it would flip the equation back in its favour (ie kill the low armor DPS and healers first)  The only way to beat that encounter would be to bring characters so powerfull that no 'kill order' would ever save the mob.   It would be a pure attrition fight.

So unless you make every character a 'tank mage',  the trick is to design a fight where the players can negate a smart AI that is going to hone in on the most dangerous players first.  You probably have to tone down the damage outputs of mobsto prevent one-shot kills on players to account for hte fact that players simply will not be able to react as fast to an unpredictable computer opponent.

In the days of the turn base RPG, the warrior went to battle with the best armor and weapons from quest rewards or what you can afford in the town store, dozens of health potions, and a couple of area effect special attacks, the healers and mages more or less the same plus tons of mana potions.

Now taking WOW as example you as the warrior go to battle with medium to crappy armor and weapons, health potions with waiting periods and almost zero special attacks, the healer most of the time just stand on one spot waiting to heal (I think he or she is sacking the cooler) saving precious mana, the mage like to run to the front lines throwing his fire ball, both of them without a decent magic wand or mana potions (to expensive in the AH)

Yeah something is wrong

PvP is in fact the battle between the grinders (almost play like 6 to 12 hours in weekdays and almost non stop in weekends and the holidays, grinding like crazy areas and instances looking for those special items) and the casual player (maybe between 2 to 4 hours a day if real life let you and almost zero grinding), purple or epic versus green.

Originally posted by daarco

It does not have "aggro" or "tanking" skills. Dont even know what that is. There are spells and skills that will help the health to recover a bit faster. And a healing spell will effect everyone in the AoE, both friends and foes (manual aimed, no auto targeting).

But mobs will taunt you to attack them : )

 

 

Edit: whow whow! What did you say about if there is skills, its the same as classes?? So if i take some crafting, riding, sword, archery, healing, magic missile, and skinning skills......im a healer??? What??

Yes, if you take healing skills, you are indeed a healer.  And if you take a ton of heavy armor and defensive skills that allow you to take a huge beating from multiple mobs, and other skills that allow you to taunt mobs into attacking you, you're a tank.

The answer is Yes, Darkfall and Tcos are mmos with out defined tanks.Every class is a hybrid in most case.People can take up the role of tanks and possibly specialize to be a tanks but the game encounters are designed around tanks drawing aggro and healer spamming heals.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by daarco

It does not have "aggro" or "tanking" skills. Dont even know what that is. There are spells and skills that will help the health to recover a bit faster. And a healing spell will effect everyone in the AoE, both friends and foes (manual aimed, no auto targeting).

But mobs will taunt you to attack them : )

 

 

Edit: whow whow! What did you say about if there is skills, its the same as classes?? So if i take some crafting, riding, sword, archery, healing, magic missile, and skinning skills......im a healer??? What??

 

Yes, if you take healing skills, you are indeed a healer.  And if you take a ton of heavy armor and defensive skills that allow you to take a huge beating from multiple mobs, and other skills that allow you to taunt mobs into attacking you, you're a tank.

So if you take healing, weapon, magic skils/spells.....but never use the healing skill....what are you then??

It doesnt make sense for me. Just because you have skill, it doesnt mean you will use it. I would just have it as "First Aid" in emergencies.

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by daarco

It does not have "aggro" or "tanking" skills. Dont even know what that is. There are spells and skills that will help the health to recover a bit faster. And a healing spell will effect everyone in the AoE, both friends and foes (manual aimed, no auto targeting).

But mobs will taunt you to attack them : )

 

 

Edit: whow whow! What did you say about if there is skills, its the same as classes?? So if i take some crafting, riding, sword, archery, healing, magic missile, and skinning skills......im a healer??? What??

 

Yes, if you take healing skills, you are indeed a healer.  And if you take a ton of heavy armor and defensive skills that allow you to take a huge beating from multiple mobs, and other skills that allow you to taunt mobs into attacking you, you're a tank.

 

So if you take healing, weapon, magic skils/spells.....but never use the healing skill....what are you then??

It doesnt make sense for me. Just because you have skill, it doesnt mean you will use it. I would just have it as "First Aid" in emergencies.

Who cares how you label yourself?  The whole point of this thread is about PVE group combat mechanics, not about the classes vs. skill trees issue.

If presented with a number of potential targets you may choose who to engage, however you must be able to define a difference between them to make a logical choice. We assume you can do this based upon what they look like or their physical position. Melee combat will typically be against the first rank of troops, thats why they're there, to fight first. So you need collision. Also turning you back on your enemy or even trying to run past them without presenting any defence should be considered a terrible mistake, so you need it easier to damage targets not actively defending themselves. This also links to disadvantages for trying to engage multiple opponents, it should be harder to be offensive and even a little harder in defence, hence enemy will find advantage in swaming you. Just trying to hold the line should be possible at least for a little while, various shunts and slams (not to mention trips) will also be very handy. In short your warriors regardless of their own damage absorbtion techniques should be able to provide a skirmish screen for your squishies. These warriors can use manoeuvre or heavy armour, fast kills or lots of getting in the way, as long as they keep the enemy busy. Additional enemy troops should be trying to infiltrate the first rank in order to engage your rear area while you try to keep your screen in place, this is about not having a hole develop either due to a 'man-down' or pushbacks and followups. When you are fighting one side or the other will either be choosing to back away or is being pushed back, if their opponent wishes to press on then they may follow. This can lead to either the enemy pushing a hole in your line due to their sucesses or you own guys stepping out of formation as they foolishly pursue an enemy. Assuming you keep the line intact then your guys at the back should be safe although they may need to act as a reserve force to fill in any gaps or assist a warrior having a bit of trouble. With advantages for outnumbering your foe its possible for even weak melee fighters to lend a hand and help swing combat, they may assist the most offensive warrior in his defence (stalling the enemy attack) and so free him to engage the enemy on his own terms (the enemy attack is soon routed). The enemy may try to outflank you, this is more an issue of terrain and group numbers, and further increases the tactical requirements of the engagement, i.e. backing away the whole team so that you can make use of the narrow pass to prevent flanking.

Yeah, bin the 'tank with aggro', get tactics instead.

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by rikilii

Yes, if you take healing skills, you are indeed a healer.  And if you take a ton of heavy armor and defensive skills that allow you to take a huge beating from multiple mobs, and other skills that allow you to taunt mobs into attacking you, you're a tank.

 

So if you take healing, weapon, magic skils/spells.....but never use the healing skill....what are you then??

It depends on the game and the circumstances, but usually an idiot.

I found this video of group PvE without tanks. The last two minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z62YZ_UBMc  From DF (i know you hate it, but its for the discussion).

Originally posted by daarco

I found this video of group PvE without tanks. The last two minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z62YZ_UBMc  From DF (i know you hate it, but its for the discussion).

I dont hate much mate.
 

The vid is from a self confessed noob so its not as revealing as perhaps it could be, but it would appear that its a matter of active defence for whoever the mob attacks and everyone else hands out slaps. I'm not convinced that would constitute fun for everyone, but it would appear to be closer to my own thinking, a wider range of defensive tactics (rather than block with shield) would give a subtle improvement (but as these guys are noods that might follow later). The example given shows an outnumbered enemy being hacked upon from all sides and so I'd personally like to see this being a much faster take down, also I'd like to see how the PCs cope when out-numbered.

Its the close quarter crowd control element that most people expect to see from a Tank (and hopefully the ability to absorb punishment), it would appear from the vid that the guys haven't yet discovered any ability to draw the enemy upon a given 'target' character. The mob attacks who 'it wants', and to be honest I see this as perfectly reasonable, but in order to prevent it from degenerating into a simple free-for-all I'd want to see some method of applying tactics.

I assume DF has collision and so a 'shield wall' would work, and once the mob has decided its opponents you can once again fall upon them, but if your outnumbered then I wonder how that will work out for you, will the mob attempt to take on the entire party or just those at the front? Is the only tactic simply a case of running off and comming back when they've locked onto someone else (as shown)? Not so fond of that as a requirement of combat. Sure a party deciding to withdraw due to unforseen strength of opposition, but individuals running backwards and forwards relying on the AI letting them disengage rather than punishing them for biting off more than they could chew, no, I dont like that.

I guess we need to see what abilities are hidden for now until folk have unlocked more skills, are we expecting a lot of hidden abilities?

Very interesting thoughts.

The manual aiming and lack of controlling the mobs can make combat very chaotic. So its up to the players themselves to take control. I would also want to see more formations in combat. But i have discover its very hard to get other players to listen to you (lol). Everyone wants to do it his/hers own way.  I guess we wil see more formations later (the game is one week old).