I'm a fan of warhammer, I watched it Development, I've played levels 1-40.  I study the game mechanics so I can be a better player.  I'm an average mmo player, I don't devote tons of hours, but when I play I play hard.

I have a long mmo experience, EQ, EQII EVE, Vanguard, WoW.

War is fun, the RvR framework is good, capturing keeps, battling in scenarios, its all fun.  So "what's the flaw?" you ask.  The flaw is that war has worked too hard to remove the downtime historiclly built into mmo's. 

In warhammer it is difficult to meet new people.  I have fond memories of making new friends in past mmo's by dungeon crawling somewhere and chatting while medding up. 

This disorder that takes place in keep sieges is horrible, and its mostly due to mass groups of unorganized people zerging.  Players are trained to not have to wait or be patient for anything in Warhammer.

In most MMO's socialization was fostered by the mechanic of necessary down time.  In Warhammer, the vast majority of players are either happy without it, or don't realize its the missing core of a great mmo. 

Sure some people will reply they are in a healthy guild that works together, and manages to shepard the masses in the RvR zergfests.  I don't doubt such guilds exist.  I certainaly haven't found that guild. 

Long term, what keeps me interested in an mmo is a good balance of gaming and relationships....for me EVE was too little gaming 15-20 flights on autopilot bored me to tears.  Warhammer I fear is too heavy on action and too light on solcialization.

I've been playing with a static group of 2 RL friends...one of them has decided to let his subscription lapse.  This is the first time I've been in an MMO for 6 months and not found a guild for the 3 of us to become an active part of.  I don't know if the game will continue to be a draw after his departure.

I agree meeting people due to the lack of a down time, or even a reason to group outside of RvR is an issue. But this is an issue with all MMO's in the era of WoW.

When I played DAoC you needed to group to get decent exp when PvE'ing. We also had a certain amount of down time between pulls, so it was very social.

In this new era of MMO's I wonder if  a new game with such mechanics can be successful.

Agree with the OP, this was my #1 issue with the game, I would love to come back but I just don't see it happening.

I agree with the OP & would like to add

This game is broken for me cause if your fighting against 3 times more players from the other side in a RvR lake.

It will not rewards the risk with 3 times more XP/RP/Inf.

Overpopulated=More kills and less death=More xp=Level faster= Makes population problem bigger.

If you want to go for the more scotial aspect of the game id roll Order

I can see the OP's pointe but i think that would mostly be a destruction problem and less of a problem on the order side.

But Order has its hole diffrent bunch of problems you wont have on the destruction side.

Originally posted by Griffonage

I'm a fan of warhammer, I watched it Development, I've played levels 1-40.  I study the game mechanics so I can be a better player.  I'm an average mmo player, I don't devote tons of hours, but when I play I play hard.

I have a long mmo experience, EQ, EQII EVE, Vanguard, WoW.

(...)

I've been playing with a static group of 2 RL friends...one of them has decided to let his subscription lapse.  This is the first time I've been in an MMO for 6 months and not found a guild for the 3 of us to become an active part of.  I don't know if the game will continue to be a draw after his departure.

 

I played WAR too, and have similar opinion in some points. I am also kind of experience player, and even if I don't play tons of hours in a row (on the average), I getting deep into it.

I see you played most WoW clones out there, save for maybe LotrO, which is probably one of the best WoWish games. If not the best, at least for me. But you didn't try something different. Check D&D Online if you didn't, or if you did, but long ago. If you're open minded, and expect quality quests / raids, great character customization (not that silly "dressing" like in WoW and WAR, because after all you don't make much choices...), you make love it. Instanced doesn't mean worse, it's just different, with more rewarding, hand crafted quests.

If you played only those games, you'll be amazed how much you can do with your character, that you can't in basically every other MMORPG out there.

One, very basic example:

Here's more: www.mmorpg.com/photo/371285a1-0e4b-4a64-a827-e512ec43913c

Yeah, I'm playing the trial right now and having no downtime is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.  Granted, I'm having a blast with the PVP and the game in general, but I've only added one person to my friends list so far, and that was because he was the leader of a great warband last night taking back our BO's.

I'd say I'm definitely leaning towards subscribing, but I'll keep trying new classes and see if anything else jumps out at me.

I agree and will add that the biggest problem, in addition to what you mentioned, is that WAR is not really an MMORPG at all. It is, at its core, just a multiplayer game with a monthly fee. There is no reason to explore the lands since the rewards are negligible. The PvE quest rewards are total crap, as are most of the PvP quest rewards (I'm not including the RvR merchants in this, since that usually offers the best rewards). There is no economy to speak of and crafting contributes squat to the economy (crafting in WAR is pretty pointless anyway). There isn't even anything that resembles making your character really personalized with what I call the "Barbie Dress-Up" features found in other MMORPGs like LotRO and EQ2 (It would be nice to get special visible trophy lootz and outfit decorations from PvP kills to show off). And player housing to show off the the mounted heads of enemies you killed? Nada. So, in essence, WAR is no more an MMORPG than say Call of Duty, except EA charges $14.99/month for it. Yes, the PvP can be a lot of fun, but when that is all there is to do, even that can get tedius.

I had a small group of RL friends (4) interested in warhammer.  I ended up playing towards the end of closed beta, finding a pretty dedicated and knowledgeable guild, and joining them, getting my RL friends in aswell.

Everybody was pretty dedicated to start with, the more serious players racing to 40 in order to start the endgame.  I leveled, found quirks, enjoyed organized scenarios and outdoor rvr.  I did horrible dungeon crawls while almost constantly discussing different specs and talents with my fellow witch hunters.  I completed quest after quest, and then did some more grouped scenarios and open rvr.  And then I did it again, and again, and again.  Each time, things would become less and less fun. Each time I completed some sort of milestone, I couldn't help but ask "Thats it?"

I honestly just think the game isn't fun.  I know thats a pretty generalized statement because people have fun in many different ways, but in warhammer's case, what was suppose to be fun was really just repetitive and un-rewarding.

Disagree. I play constant Scenario's, (as I love to pvp).

Play enough and you can figure out the good players from the bad. I make several friends this way. You can also just weed that out and PVE for a while. You meet tons of people if you just go out and quest. PQ's especially are an excellent way of doing this.

I'm not sure what down time you are hoping for. I think what you mean to say is, You don't want to stop PVP'ing constantly and bother to get to know the people around you. It's like crack man, just because it's there, doesn't mean you have to do it all the time.

Chill out for a bit and take the game a bit slower. Even if all you do is create scenario premades in regional, it's a great way to get to know folks.

Originally posted by local93bc

If you want to go for the more scotial aspect of the game id roll Order

I can see the OP's pointe but i think that would mostly be a destruction problem and less of a problem on the order side.

But Order has its hole diffrent bunch of problems you wont have on the destruction side.

I've recently rolled an Engineer...I'm lvl 18 and I haven't seen much of a difference on the order side of things yet.  I still think my basic point is true for both sides that the basic game mechanics are anti-social.

---

Originally posted by Griffonage

In most MMO's socialization was fostered by the mechanic of necessary down time.  In Warhammer, the vast majority of players are either happy without it, or don't realize its the missing core of a great mmo. 
Sure some people will reply they are in a healthy guild that works together, and manages to shepard the masses in the RvR zergfests.  I don't doubt such guilds exist.  I certainaly haven't found that guild. 
Long term, what keeps me interested in an mmo is a good balance of gaming and relationships....for me EVE was too little gaming 15-20 flights on autopilot bored me to tears.  Warhammer I fear is too heavy on action and too light on solcialization.

 

---

Well, the majority of MMOs out and past are NON-pvp based. The downtime in that is the basic grouping styles.

In a PvE game, you make smaller groups (six max in most cases) and then you leisurely head off in the direction of your intended exp area or dungeon, usually solo or with no more than two people at a time. There is no mass movement as a group. It's "Ok, otw. Ill see you guys in a sec." Your small group can kill a few mobs on the short way into a dungeon or wait just outside mob's aggro range and discuss strategy because everyone can see the mobs moving about. There is no urgency, so people can socialize. The parties last a few hours usually, so you are spending loads of time with 5 other people and you get to know them.

In a PvP game, you join a warband, or raid group or whatever. There are few small six man groups and most are huge affairs... the bigger the zerg, the better. You all mill about at a warcamp waiting for everyone to show up. You have to move as a warband, or you will keep getting picked off one by one due to the nature of being attacked at any time. There is an immediacy about PvP which puts pressure on people to do everything at warp speed, and not enough communication happens; or way too MUCH communication happens due to 120 chiefs and 25 indians in your warband.

There is no "I'll meet you guys over there in a few." Its "Hey, these Destro guys are picking me off everytime I get close, and you guys aren't helping. Screw this." So there is a mass movement towards the enemy. You can only discuss so much strategy ahead of time, because you don't know exactly what or how many warbands you are facing. So you make a tenative plan, but you cannot get there and simply "observe" the enemy like they are mobs. They are looking at you too. This leads to poorly formulated, hasty plans and things made up on the fly. Someone might have a good idea, but the others are not on Vent and it cannot work. There are way too many people to get to "know" in a 150 vs 150 fight. Or even understand. Or even like to fight with. This is the basic problem with Pvp without a guild as the OP is experiencing. Throw in the fact that the queues in Warhammer city sieges make it likely that when you die, you will not be able to get in and join your guild again but be replaced by a stranger without Vent.. good times.

Many pvp players like instant gratification.. they'd rather have a character with no leveling required.. just make it max level so we can get to work killing other people (Guild Wars smartly recognized this in the typical pvp person, and gave them the option to kill right away at max level without to level up in the storyline). They don't want to grind exp or renown. For most pvpers, the end is where the fun is.. not the trip. They just want to kill other people.. lore is a diversion. The typical PvE player is about the journey, the ends is cool when they see it, but they want story and conversation about the intricacies of the plots. This is not a problem isolated to Warhammer, but PvP in general. There is generally less downtime in any pvp game and less socializing UNLESS you are guilded and yakking on Vent.

The truth is a lot of people don't like the downtime anymore, I started my MMOs with The Realm way back in the day and played, UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, Lineage 2, DDO, etc etc. I for one am kind of tired of long down times.

Does lack of down time necessarily mean a lack of a social structure? No, most of the social structure in this game comes from PvPing. You meet people in scenarios or oRvR that you like how they fight. So you get to know them, and you keep this going until you have a solid group of PvPers that can be organized. There are plenty of guilds out there but most of them are definetly the "we broadcasted a message and a bunch of random people joined" groups. And those guilds are not the least bit enjoyable.

Now this isn't coming from a huge fan of WAR, I do own it and play it but I feel there is plenty wrong with it and am not sure how much longer I will stay subbed. But I did the right thing of joined WAR only for PvP, so I wasn't expecting some rich detailed quest system. I was expecting the PvE part to be just about what it is, and I use it only for leveling my guy. One of the biggest reasons I've given up on so many major titles, like WoW, is the specifically forced grouping to get the items you really need. And forced grouping/major down time while trying to get an epic group together and travel to the location doesn't necessarily build and kind of enjoyable social structure either. I found far more annoying people in WoW then I have in WAR.

The one thing I will give you is that in WAR the region chats tend to either be completly void of chat or all the chat is associated with the group taking oRvR tasks.

Also I don't agree with the person that said that order is more social then destruction. I've leveld up several characters on both sides and in fact have found more enjoyable and social people in destruction. So I would say that's entirely a personal perception people form.

It'd just be nice if WAR had some sort of productive down time even if its completely optional downtime.   Last time I played WAR the only time you took downtime is if you actually wanted to sell something and it took all of 2 seconds then you were back at rinse and repeat.   Games don't need 'forced' down time they just need productive activities for downtime that don't involve battling.  I'd suggest crafting but WAR's crafting is...well the most lacking crafting system I've ever run into.  Even WoW's was better at launch.  

I think by making every type of crafting doable while on the road was a mistake it would of given people some sort of optional downtime to sit around and hang out or atleast spend time in the cities...lick wounds instead of fight fight fight fight fight fight.   

It got old for me especially considering how unorganized everything is and how unhelpful the game is towards newer players.    If you fell behind your guild mates there's no incentive for them to want to help you and most guilds I encountered pretty much won't help you keep up without an incentive thus you end up being in a guild where you mainly play by yourself unless you get lucky and your some pet to a guild leader so everyone jumps to power you.

I have alot of hopes for WAR's future...I just currently don't see myself there the game got stale pretty quick.  They should of focused even less then they did on the PVE side and made the RvR Better and less rinse repeat from the start.  Its a good example for future attempts at RvR type games in the future atleast.

I disagree that alot of people these days don't like downtime.   They may not like downtime while adventuring & battling but they do seem to enjoy alot of other down time.   WoW's loaded with productive downtime activities. (god i hate using it as an example its just the most unverisal one).

I think I met all of my previous guilds in WoW when spending time in a capital city or while waiting in an instance  til it was time to attack the next group of mobs.

I do not remember meeting to many friends in a battleground or during any zergfest-attack on any village!

Heck, I even met my old clanmates in Counter-strike when playing public by first:

Small talking while beeing dead in a public- round.

After that we got to icq/msn and/or forums and finally via Ventrilo/skype/teamspeak.

I almost never ever talked with people during the rounds while being alive! Cause then I had only kill,kill and kill on my mind!

I'll say; downtime aint bad at all when it comes to meet people. Too bad Warhammers downtime isn't good in any way!

If you ask me the biggest flaw of WAR is its skill cap..in PvP games, without a high skill cap, you have a game that grows boring quick when you feel like you'll never get any better unless gear is involved.

WAR is a for button meshers and zergers...and that's the number 1 flaw of WAR.

Originally posted by Sarr
Originally posted by Griffonage

I'm a fan of warhammer, I watched it Development, I've played levels 1-40. I study the game mechanics so I can be a better player. I'm an average mmo player, I don't devote tons of hours, but when I play I play hard.

I have a long mmo experience, EQ, EQII EVE, Vanguard, WoW.

(...)

I've been playing with a static group of 2 RL friends...one of them has decided to let his subscription lapse. This is the first time I've been in an MMO for 6 months and not found a guild for the 3 of us to become an active part of. I don't know if the game will continue to be a draw after his departure.

I played WAR too, and have similar opinion in some points. I am also kind of experience player, and even if I don't play tons of hours in a row (on the average), I getting deep into it.

I see you played most WoW clones out there, save for maybe LotrO, which is probably one of the best WoWish games. If not the best, at least for me. But you didn't try something different. Check D&D Online if you didn't, or if you did, but long ago. If you're open minded, and expect quality quests / raids, great character customization (not that silly "dressing" like in WoW and WAR, because after all you don't make much choices...), you make love it. Instanced doesn't mean worse, it's just different, with more rewarding, hand crafted quests.

If you played only those games, you'll be amazed how much you can do with your character, that you can't in basically every other MMORPG out there.

One, very basic example:

Here's more: www.mmorpg.com/photo/371285a1-0e4b-4a64-a

___________________________________________________________________________________

Sorry but other than vanguard, EQ and eve were out way before WOW, EQII was in developement the same time wow was so how can they possibley be wow clones. When Wow is the biggest clone of all. I play LOTRO and i can tell you it is nothing like wow other than it has the same base game mechanics that all game have that make a game playable.

See to me a clone is an exact copy of the original. That is a defanition of a clone. If we go by your logic of what a clone is then we are all clones of each other cause we all stand on two feet, have two arms, a head and are human. Learn what a clone is before you go saying all games are wow clones. This is the part that really gets to me how people mis represent what is common knowledge. No game is a clone of another game caue no two games are exactly alike.
 

I've been playing WAR for a while now and its been a great experience. i agree that you can sometimes feel like your the only person in the game world, but at other times it can be a huge social fest, especially when there is a big Warband going around. As it has been said in this thread, the game isn't about exploring and questing, its about the PvP. I usually play WAR if i feel like doing some good  PvP or Zerging the destructions keep, but I occasionaly switch over to WoW to do some big instances or hang out with my guildies. I guess WAR just isn't for some people.

I agree with the OP that there is now downtime built into the game, but honestly, haven't we all complained about the downtime in games previous?  You still have downtime, it's just RL downtime, and it's just as easily done out-of-game.  There are some elements that could be added, sure.  Capital cities could be tweaked to offer gathering spots.  Perhaps the xp bonus could be something you build up for free by hanging out in a tavern rather than being logged off.  Perhaps some kind of instanced guild hall exploration mechanism could be developed to show off guild achievements.  There is always room for improvement in a game.

But if you want end-game PvP done right, you can't get much closer than WAR.

If you can look away from the flaws of WAR and don't play it too hardcore, WAR is a pretty good game considering the lack of pvp MMOs now.

Things i like

the classes

scenarios

ORVR

dont like

no economy due to limited crafting choices. everyone have the same crafting.

zones too defined by tiers and world design causing lack of world immersion.

Originally posted by Jackio81

If you ask me the biggest flaw of WAR is its skill cap..in PvP games, without a high skill cap, you have a game that grows boring quick when you feel like you'll never get any better unless gear is involved.

 

WAR is a for button meshers and zergers...and that's the number 1 flaw of WAR.

This dude nailed it...

The best thing about DAoC ... skills wins!

Iv watched videos of 1 person killing small groups of people because of skills aquired through realm points ... you could become "Legendary" to the point ... that everybody would know who you are and fear you... WAR has none of this