Originally posted by Die_Scream

Prolly because no other games have full loot at all.

www.wurmonline.com

Originally posted by Gorilla

Originally posted by pprllo

Now, the question is: was it really THAT easy ? Is Full Loot enough to make tons of people have fun even when the rest is just the shell of the game ? Did Aventurine find the "Press here to make money" button of the MMORPG market ?

 

For me no. Full loot I can take of leave, I quite liked AC (darktides) insurance system. DF is pants, but people are having fun (which is cool). A well crafted game with carefelly implemented systems (a game that has been designed rather than shopping list of virtually identical skills) could be a major success. The devs of Fallen Earth and Earthrise must be pleased and excited.

 

Earthrise maybe, not Fallen Earth. FE is more PvE based than PvP based. PvP is going to be optional, and I doubt VERY much that they'll do any kind of item looting.

Originally posted by utopium

Originally posted by Mr_Hand

 Check your math!

 

ok, 12 months * $15 = $180 per customer per year.

50k * $180 = $9000k = $9m.

Triple checked the math, if I'm wrong I'll officially withdraw from the internet and then ask to be submitted to a home for the elderly.

Epic fail! 

Because we are only the first week into the game..! Coincidentally, there is NOT 50k players, there isn't even 20k players... but 20k is a reasonable figure to use.

So,

20k * $50 = $1 million in box sales.

Subscription renewal: 20k * $15 = $300k per month income

NOW..    what is the monthly cost of running Darkfall?  As a reference, Mythic had said it cost them over $300k/month just for bandwidth, since Aventurine doesn't have that many players, I would suspect it somewhere around $50k /month.

Then, Aventurine has to lease on the server farm, which is easily another $50k /month (probably mcuh higher).

Then add 30 Employess making just 4k/month =  $120,000 /month

Building lease, power, utilities, insurance...     $5,000 /month ..??

Thats $75,000 a month in profits... that bearly pays the interest on a $12 million loan!

First, banking isn't entirely global. There are 2 cities for each race that have banks linked and you can't use the banks of other races safely. Furthermore, I don't think the guild banks are linked to the global system, but I could be wrong. If they are, they need to be either cut off from the use of other guild banks, or from the global system entirely. 

I also don't agree that a auction system should be implemented. That will stifle trade further removing the need to directly accociate with crafters and their guilds.
 

Originally posted by Mr_Hand

 

Epic fail! 

Because we are only the first week into the game..! Coincidentally, there is NOT 50k players, there isn't even 20k players... but 20k is a reasonable figure to use.

 

-- You were the one who said the game wasn't sustainable on a 20-50k subscriber base. I chose the higher figure as a starting point to see where that would leave us.

So,

20k * $50 = $1 million in box sales.

Subscription renewal: 20k * $15 = $300k per month income

 

 

NOW..    what is the monthly cost of running Darkfall?  As a reference, Mythic had said it cost them over $300k/month just for bandwidth, since Aventurine doesn't have that many players, I would suspect it somewhere around $50k /month.

Then, Aventurine has to lease on the server farm, which is easily another $50k /month (probably mcuh higher).

 

-- This is where it gets interesting how many players their servers can hold. We need some kind of educated guess, but if you're paying $50k lease plus 50k bandwidth for 20k users, you're clearly doing it wrong.

Then add 30 Employess making just 4k/month =  $120,000 /month

-- This would be significantly higher than the average salary in Greece. There are likely "release bonuses" for the employees, but your suggestion is certainly not conservative. Whether or not they actually have 30 employees at this time also seems like an open question to me.

Building lease, power, utilities, insurance...     $5,000 /month ..??

 -- From what I've heard, property isn't actually all that inexpensive in Athens. This sounds conservative, but it's likely not a biggie anyway.

Thats $75,000 a month in profits... that bearly pays the interest on a $12 million loan!

What interest? AFAIK, the CEO has footed the investment himself, so any interest cost is just transferring money from one pocket to the other. He's barely looking at a fantastic ROI, but when does he pull the plug? 20k subs is clearly a worst case scenario, but 50k might be passable depending on actual server costs.

Originally posted by pprllo

Did Aventurine find the "Press here to make money" button of the MMORPG market ?

Gosh, to go this deep in the human-mmorpg relation whit a single question, is like asking yourself(whit a clear conscience), the meaning of life itself. 

The only un-biased subject capable of answering yours, truly, are those playing it...

Originally posted by pinkdaisy

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Prolly because no other games have full loot at all.

 

www.wurmonline.com

You forgot EVE. 

---

Originally posted by pprllo
I'm sitting here and wondering ... Let's look at the real features of this game right now ...
- Crafting sucks.
- There's no economy.
- Combat system is "meh".
- AI is broken.
- World is empty.
- City building is "meh". 

---

Every word here is bs. Crafting doesn't suck, economy is starting to work, combat system is great, AI ok, world isn't empty and city building works as intended... So just stop to say of things you know nothing about...

---

Originally posted by girlgeek

---

Originally posted by pinkdaisy

---

Originally posted by Die_Scream

 

Prolly because no other games have full loot at all.

---

 

 
www.wurmonline.com

---

 
You forgot EVE. 

---

 
EVE doesn't have full loot. You can't take your enemy's ship intact.
 
 
 

---

Originally posted by Kshahdoo

 

 

---

Originally posted by pprllo
I'm sitting here and wondering ... Let's look at the real features of this game right now ...
- Crafting sucks.
- There's no economy.
- Combat system is "meh".
- AI is broken.
- World is empty.
- City building is "meh".

 

---

Every word here is bs. Crafting doesn't suck, economy is starting to work, combat system is great, AI ok, world isn't empty and city building works as intended... So just stop to say of things you know nothing about...

---

Just because you disagree with something it doesn't make it BS. Their opinions are just as valid as your own. I suspect I'd find my opinion lies somewhere between the two of yours. Personally I think "works as intended" is the saddest thing you can say about a game feature. City building should be one of the most enjoyable non-combat features of the game. It's a concrete representation of you ability to put your stamp on the world, except it's not it's just an exercise in prefab grinding.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 
EVE doesn't have full loot. You can't take your enemy's ship intact.
 

With T3 ships, you can basically ransom the player for the ship to spare the skill loss occuring from destroyed ships. So yes, you can have full loot.

And otherwise too, it's basically full loot, because other player loses ship & fittings & cargo completely par insurance which accounts to nothing with T2 ships.

Originally posted by rageagainst

AV, i would imagine, was trying to do the same thing, since the game barely has any content atm. The problem is that there's a HUGE amount of hype surrounding the game and thus everyone WILL judge the game on the shell it is currently, and they won't have the opportunity to grow like EvE because they will simply end up like Vangaurd, their content may eventually grow and make the game amazing, but everyone already made up their mind on the game (partly b/c review sites ALWAYS make their final judgement at the launch of a mmo, even though, for the mmo, its only the beginning), so subs keep falling until the game becomes unprofitable.

Sorry but I don't agree with the "AV was not trying to hype the game up", they have been doing interviews left and right and their whole web site is hyping the whole game as UO's second coming..but better

And that last bit is probably what created so much negativity, if you pay attention you will start notice is most of the "haters" are Ex Uo'ers (and some old EQ'ers) who believed what AV were actually going to make what they promised (see website) and that basically translated in UO, with the major mistakes undone and graphics and game play updated by about 6 years

But where was actually delivered was little more than FFA FPS masquerading as a PvP MMORPG, designed by people who were probably moongate noto ganking kiddies who thought 5vs1 (them being the 5) was the ultimate definition of skill and the most (all the) fun you could have in UO

Now if they had sold the game as what it basically was at release, some would have cheered and played and majority would have just ignored it and gone on with their lives (like happens with many many other games)

As it is now though, many want the game to fail, because

Some due to anger at being mislead for so long

Others because they feel DFO will now kill any chance of a real new UO type game being created because really the very best DFO can hope for is a couple hundred sub's and that in today's MMO market is considered a failer. And because DFO linked it's self to UO the market will view the UO game type as a route to failer, ignoring the fact that what DFO's similarities to UO are at the very best skin deep

And others just because so many DFO fanboys are just plain old useless prick's who's definition of "owning at board pvp" is "Carebears" "go back to you" "pussy's" and so forth…which coincidently was pretty common for the moongate ganking types I described above
 

Originally posted by spector75

Originally posted by Mr_Hand

Originally posted by utopium

Originally posted by fellestra

 Then this game was designed to fail from the beginning. They CANNOT keep afloat with 20-50K subs.

I realize that business and math are foreign to most of you trollbois on here but the economics of running a business show that these numbers are not reasonable.

What's the current interest rate on a 10 mil business loan? Whats the terms on said loan? What ROI does the average investor expect to make? What are the overhead costs of a business with 30 some employees? If you don't have a feel for those numbers then you don't have a clue about what it takes to survive in business, and why AV can't last at the 20-50K level.

 

50k subs * $15 a month = $9m + initial sign up fee. If you feel this is insufficient to keep up with capital costs and an underpaid (meaning greek) staff, please show your work.

 

Check your math!

 His math is correct figuring he is working on a yearly scale. However what he fails to take into account is that the game spent so it would look more like -100m + 9m per year + box sales and YEARS before they came out of the red at 50k subs. And i can only imagine the amount owed per year that passes on a 100m dollar loan has gotta be pretty big.

 

i must cut in here, the devs said that it took nearly 10m euros in that greek TV interview to make DF. that's not even close to 100mil$, more like 1/10th of it. Though NIETHER OF YOU took into consideration the cost of running the servers and paying the staff for the year, so yeah its possible for them to be viable with 50k people, though to get out of the red faster than 2 yrs, they would need more. And I believe there are atleast 100k blind fanbois that will fund the game, don't y'all agree (i say blind fanbois, b/c thats what you are if you buy the game in the beta state it is in)

duble post

Originally posted by harmonica

I thought this thread was going to be about my girlfriend.

Just the title of the thread.  ;-)

Originally posted by Kasmos

Originally posted by pprllo

I'm sitting here and wondering ... Let's look at the real features of this game right now ...

- Crafting sucks.

- There's no economy.

- Combat system is "meh".

- AI is broken.

- World is empty.

- City building is "meh". 

- Macroing and exploiting is rampant.

I haven't tried crafting so I don't have much of an opinion, but my guildmates who are straight crafters say they love it. Guess it doesn't suck as much as you may think.

There's no economy? The game has been out for LESS THEN A WEEK! What kind of economy do you think is going to develop in that short amount of time? /facepalm

Combat system is not "meh", it's the best damn system on the market right now. Again, most people I meet in game and all, yes all of my guildmates agree with this. That's 80+ people in game right now playing hours a day, that are absolutely in love with the combat system. Could it get better? Absolutely. Is it better then any MMO out on the market right now? Absolutely.

Some AI is broken, not all, and not most.

World is NOT empty. For christ's sake, has the genre been that watered down that having to go out and look for mobs is a sign of a world being "empty"? I find mobs ever 3 minutes or so of walking. You have to search for them, it's not like you just go out and go, "Oh, new zone, awesome, here's some bears for the next square 300 meters, oh and look, once you cross this imaginary line, now there's flying attacking butterflies!"

City building is supposedly awesome. The game is too young for really anyone to have tried it yet, but I am dying in anticipating for my guild's first siege.

Yes, macroing and exploiting ARE rampant right now. All all your "negatives", that's the only one I'll agree with.

he doesn't played the game. You arguing with someone who formed his opinion out of the blue to put it nicely..he just extracts the negative parts out of reviews and ignore the positive and repeat the negative like a parrot..would you argue with a parrot ?

News Flash:

Breaking obvious yet apparently not news.  Just because you dont like it and WoW is the game for you, doesnt mean it fits everyone.  just move along, or are you but hurt that you cant get in?

Now, back to your regular programming of constant trolling of a forum you supposedly dont want to play.

---

Originally posted by zymurgeist
 

---

Originally posted by girlgeek

---

Originally posted by pinkdaisy

---

Originally posted by Die_Scream
 
Prolly because no other games have full loot at all.

 
 
www.wurmonline.com

 
You forgot EVE. 

---

 
 
EVE doesn't have full loot. You can't take your enemy's ship intact.
 
 
 

Originally posted by Kshahdoo
 

 

Originally posted by pprllo
I'm sitting here and wondering ... Let's look at the real features of this game right now ...
- Crafting sucks.
- There's no economy.
- Combat system is "meh".
- AI is broken.
- World is empty.
- City building is "meh".
 

---

Every word here is bs. Crafting doesn't suck, economy is starting to work, combat system is great, AI ok, world isn't empty and city building works as intended... So just stop to say of things you know nothing about...

---

 
Just because you disagree with something it doesn't make it BS. Their opinions are just as valid as your own. I suspect I'd find my opinion lies somewhere between the two of yours. Personally I think "works as intended" is the saddest thing you can say about a game feature. City building should be one of the most enjoyable non-combat features of the game. It's a concrete representation of you ability to put your stamp on the world, except it's not it's just an exercise in prefab grinding.

---

No "their opinions" aren't as valid as mine because I'm playing the game and "they" aren't...

Originally posted by pprllo

I'm sitting here and wondering ... Let's look at the real features of this game right now ...

- Crafting sucks.

- There's no economy.

- Combat system is "meh".

- AI is broken.

- World is empty.

- City building is "meh". 

- Macroing and exploiting is rampant.

But:

- Huge, well-designed, seamless world.

- Skill system.

- Full Loot

- Full L00t !

- Fool Lewt !!

- F00L L3WT !!!

Even if you look at all those "cool stories", it's either about exploring some place or looting some jerk.

And people are actually loving it !!!

Now, the question is: was it really THAT easy ? Is Full Loot enough to make tons of people have fun even when the rest is just the shell of the game ? Did Aventurine find the "Press here to make money" button of the MMORPG market ?

So, 7 cons, and 3 pros ( 4 repeated ).... The only reason to play DF is for full loot?  Really?  Thats it?

Originally posted by Cereo

Originally posted by Z3R01

well if were talking longterm i think everything you brought up in your post will be fixed.

Pve mobs should be fixed with more added into the game and AV would be retarded to not add things like optional missions, dungeons and boss mobs.

The trade system is a limitation, but I think even with the system they have people will still need the gear crafters make and if crafted shit is in demand you have an economy on a basic level.

Bugs and exploits will take time to fix.

And the other things like sub par combat are all subjective. the combat looks like a FPS game tbh. This type of combat in a MMO wont appeal to everyone.

 

Marks in red:  "Will be...", "should be...", "would be...", "will take time..."

Having faith in this is kind of silly. You paid to play the game now. AV took 8 years to make this game, when do you expect a realistic timeframe for a small indie company to fix TONS and TONS of problems, many of them (like macroing) a foundation of the game? If you think soon, you're dreaming. If you say "you just need to have patience", then I really feel bad for you as a consumer. The worst part is some of you want so desperately to get that old feeling back of UO and company that you'll tell yourself almost any lie to get that old school feeling back again. :/ I know how that feels, but c'mon now...

Well said.

This has been my point all along. This just smacks of SWG. Think about it, this game just kind of released and theres 7-8-9 years of bullshit spewed by AV, I'm not sure how anyone could pay money to another Smedley.

Great thread this. Loads of valid points being made and the first couple of pages I read was without any trolling and that is f'ing unprecedented here, haha :D

Good points being:

"Look at AoC. Look at WAR! Everyone was loving the game and had a blast at launch!We all know what happened at the end if the first month for both games!"

a.k.a.

"honeymoon factor"

answered by:

"True, but Darkfall is currently the Big Fish in a small pond. Both those game you mentioned above are guppies in well, an ocean. Darkfall doesn't require nearly as many subs as AoC or WAR to be labled a success".

I agree with the last remark, with the addition that Darkfall has to share that pond with EVE but the EVE fish resides around two million lightyears straight above said pond so there won't be much competition between them, if you catch my drift.

It is true however, that AV is hellbent on keeping the game up and running and to keep improving it; Darkfall = Aventurine, Aventurine = Darkfall. Other, OWNED studio's are much more likely to drop a game. Not because it isn't proffitable, but having those devs work on a next title will bring them much more revenue. That is how the financial folks of the big game companies think; BIG 'instant' profits from box sales rather than meager ones, spread out over the years.

Unless, ofcourse, they hit the 'WOW' bulls eye of mass appeal and have truly big amounts of money rolling in from subs which is what all the big companies aim for; hence the expensive IP's such as Starwars, Startrek, Warhammer and Conan and hence the way in which they all try to serve both PVE'ers and PVP'ers and by doing so, screw it up, or end up with a mediocre game, for both groups.

Next to that  they always seem to forget about immersion, for instance in world design, the cornerstone of any rpg, and throw it in as an afterthought. ... it just doesn't work that way. Interesting thing is that AV did the exact oposite with DF: make a game for a particular group; pvp'ers who value as much freedom as they possibly can get and try to make the most out of it.

"When EVE launched I played it for a couple of months and left due to boredom. It was only after about half a year when the player run economy was flowing that the games long term potential really started to shine for me and a lot of other people. Fighting is only so fun unless you have something to fight for, and resources are only interesting in fighting over if there is a market and liquid cash available so you can gain from them".

A very valid point as well and this could very well be similar with Darkfall. So the million dollar questions are: Is Darkfalls gameplay fun enough to last into the player-run-world fase of Darkfall. And if it does, is that sandbox 'end' game which DF offers, interesting enough to keep players in for the long run? We have yet to see. It is very hard to make comparisons with other 'failed' or disapointing titles such as Tabula Rasa, AOC and WAR since it is such a different formula.