Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

Macroing is "available", and that's quite a difference. Those of you who won't do it out self rightousness, be my guess, but the fact is, everything gets maxed, sooner or later. If you take the long road or the express one, the end result is the same, in the end it doesn't matter.

From the developer's point of view (and bottom line) the difference means months of subscription money.

When people max out in a very short time in an MMO, they leave. They get the carrot in a week or a month, then..no more carrot. Until an expensive to develop expansion is released.

 

So a developer develops and sells a game in which they hope ppl sit in front of the computer for months pushing the same button?  Hmm quite an ingenious developer, and we are supposed to respect them?

...erm...Yes. That is exactly what MMO devs want. Obviously, no MMO has you hitting one button...except MACRO games, where you assigned a bunch of binds to one key. Like this one apparently(?).

I never said to respect them, I'm saying that any game with shortcuts to the top, will have players reaching the top in a very short time. That, is poison to a subscription based game.

Originally posted by kedoremos

Now that Adventurine has said it's okay to macro away from guard towers, don't worry, by the time you get into the game, everyone who pre-ordered will have max. magic skills.

I'm not trolling, actually. I am exaggerating a little but I've seen the evidence myself: people are open about the fact they're macroing their skills. Hell, over half of the people in one of the polls I saw were people saying they do or will macro.

Don't even think about getting into a debate with me about what a macro is vs. a bot or anything. That's a waste of time and you know it. In a game where you can skill yourself by simply pressing a button under cover of safety with very little chance of dying, the intricate differences between 'macro' and 'bot' are moot at best.
 

As a frame of reference, I pre-ordered and I can play the release game right now.

Also: there is nothing in the game that kicks you for being AFK. You heard me right: you can AFK level your Rest, Run, or Swim without using anything other than the DFO client.

These are serious issues.

The fact a game mechanic enables or inadvertantly encourages macroing..not the developers or the creators of the company... but the mechanics itself speaks volumes how little thought out this system is.

People are brainwashed into thinking that these highly educated people able to create an MMO can't make fatal mistakes you really don't have to look further than Shadowbane. Great concept and very interesting classes. A thief that can actually steal items from players..how awesome. The only problem is people spent insane amount of "gold" and man hours to build these great cities only to have them burnt down in one night when the guilds were asleep. Once that started to happen people left in very big numbers. The result?. A free game with an annual character wipe. They had to make it free because the whole system they created was extremely flawed. I am seeing some of the same trends in DFO as well. it may never end the way of Shadowbane but i see more similarities than differences

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

Macroing is "available", and that's quite a difference. Those of you who won't do it out self rightousness, be my guess, but the fact is, everything gets maxed, sooner or later. If you take the long road or the express one, the end result is the same, in the end it doesn't matter.

From the developer's point of view (and bottom line) the difference means months of subscription money.

When people max out in a very short time in an MMO, they leave. They get the carrot in a week or a month, then..no more carrot. Until an expensive to develop expansion is released.

 

So a developer develops and sells a game in which they hope ppl sit in front of the computer for months pushing the same button?  Hmm quite an ingenious developer, and we are supposed to respect them?

 

...erm...Yes. That is exactly what MMO devs want. Obviously, no MMO has you hitting one button...except MACRO games, where you assigned a bunch of binds to one key. Like this one apparently(?).

I never said to respect them, I'm saying that any game with shortcuts to the top, will have players reaching the top in a very short time. That, is poison to a subscription based game.

I agree, its like reading a hint book when playing the old day RPGs, you know the story, the know the plots, the twist, you know the linear shortest route to the end of the plot, you have no intention of exploring going thru the pains, dying trying and so on.  It becomes a movie.

But my point is, why should I subscribe to a game so designed as DF? In which my main source of entertainment is grinding skills before I feel strong to go out and fight?  In PVE games, i start low and the mobs in that zone are in proportion.  In DF i start low and I face fully geared and skilled gankers right upon first log in.  Is this a game worth subs?  If not there is no poison.

If the developers cannot make a game I enjoy, they failed.  Not my fault.  If people does not enjoy the way the developers intend ppl to play, the developer need to relook at their design philosophy.  They want to force ppl to grind so they can earn sub money?  This is just short of robbery.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

Macroing is "available", and that's quite a difference. Those of you who won't do it out self rightousness, be my guess, but the fact is, everything gets maxed, sooner or later. If you take the long road or the express one, the end result is the same, in the end it doesn't matter.

From the developer's point of view (and bottom line) the difference means months of subscription money.

When people max out in a very short time in an MMO, they leave. They get the carrot in a week or a month, then..no more carrot. Until an expensive to develop expansion is released.

 

So a developer develops and sells a game in which they hope ppl sit in front of the computer for months pushing the same button?  Hmm quite an ingenious developer, and we are supposed to respect them?

 

...erm...Yes. That is exactly what MMO devs want. Obviously, no MMO has you hitting one button...except MACRO games, where you assigned a bunch of binds to one key. Like this one apparently(?).

I never said to respect them, I'm saying that any game with shortcuts to the top, will have players reaching the top in a very short time. That, is poison to a subscription based game.

 

I agree, its like reading a hint book when playing the old day RPGs, you know the story, the know the plots, the twist, you know the linear shortest route to the end of the plot, you have no intention of exploring going thru the pains, dying trying and so on.  It becomes a movie.

But my point is, why should I subscribe to a game so designed as DF? In which my main source of entertainment is grinding skills before I feel strong to go out and fight?  In PVE games, i start low and the mobs in that zone are in proportion.  In DF i start low and I face fully geared and skilled gankers right upon first log in.  Is this a game worth subs?  If not there is no poison.

If the developers cannot make a game I enjoy, they failed.  Not my fault.  If people does not enjoy the way the developers intend ppl to play, the developer need to relook at their design philosophy.  They want to force ppl to grind so they can earn sub money?  This is just short of robbery.

That was the problem UO faced back in the day before the split. Players would start an account and step out into the world only to get ganked and looted. The game went from a fun sandbox game to the virtual equiv of dropping a bar of soap in a prison shower. People who tried it said "F this" and went somewhere else. Those who played stayed in town macroing their skills up so they could at least walk out of town and have a fair chance at making it down the road.

They then split the world in two at the request of the playerbase (though the whole hardcore pvp crowd wont admit this part) so those who didnt want to have anything to do with PvP could play the game without getting ganked by the rofltards (rofltard was a name given to most griefers due to them killing you and spamming 'ROFL!')

Also the skill system was revamped due to players and macroing. Gaining skills got easier to do without macros, but by then it was too late and macro'ers were just able to max up faster than before (13 hours to GM)

To fyrewall, no more quoting, I reply here.

I have my share of UO days, when we all start exploring (on a slow modem lol) and lack to hell.  When we have to walk up to talk to someone by regional say, only to have him walked away when I finally got my say typed out.  Lags lags lags.

It was fun till ganking becomes the norm.  It was over for me.  Ever since that I do not want to be part of any ffa pvp fest, as the bad players drive out the good players (good as in community sense, not in gameskill), and all ffa pvp servers can retain are gankers.

DF looks like another weak attempt to pool gankers.  Won't last long if that is true as the gankers leave when there is no one to gank but themselves.  Its just so much fun dueling while hoping for a newbie to log on.  Other pvp games at least got some form of PVE to waste time, from what I hear, DF got nothing.

If the developer cannot provide some miraclous recovery fast, they will sink when the hype dies.  Tabula Rasa anyone?

Originally posted by Orthedos

To fyrewall, no more quoting, I reply here.

I have my share of UO days, when we all start exploring (on a slow modem lol) and lack to hell.  When we have to walk up to talk to someone by regional say, only to have him walked away when I finally got my say typed out.  Lags lags lags.

It was fun till ganking becomes the norm.  It was over for me.  Ever since that I do not want to be part of any ffa pvp fest, as the bad players drive out the good players (good as in community sense, not in gameskill), and all ffa pvp servers can retain are gankers.

DF looks like another weak attempt to pool gankers.  Won't last long if that is true as the gankers leave when there is no one to gank but themselves.  Its just so much fun dueling while hoping for a newbie to log on.  Other pvp games at least got some form of PVE to waste time, from what I hear, DF got nothing.

If the developer cannot provide some miraclous recovery fast, they will sink when the hype dies.  Tabula Rasa anyone?

Ganking can actually be mitigated somewhat by offering other things to do for players. A huge part of this is traditionally guild based activities, but those unaffiliated with a guild would still get their jollies ganking.

Generally people start ganking once they get bored and don't have any compunction to partake in other content. Sadly, a gankfest game quickly spirals because the community becomes very hostile. While organized, city-involved PvP can most often build a community, even through conflict and rivalry.

Now, in a competition-oriented game like Darkfall, the ability to gain skills quickly using macros is bad for the game. That's my opinion at least.

Originally posted by Orthedos

To fyrewall, no more quoting, I reply here.

I have my share of UO days, when we all start exploring (on a slow modem lol) and lack to hell.  When we have to walk up to talk to someone by regional say, only to have him walked away when I finally got my say typed out.  Lags lags lags.

It was fun till ganking becomes the norm.  It was over for me.  Ever since that I do not want to be part of any ffa pvp fest, as the bad players drive out the good players (good as in community sense, not in gameskill), and all ffa pvp servers can retain are gankers.

DF looks like another weak attempt to pool gankers.  Won't last long if that is true as the gankers leave when there is no one to gank but themselves.  Its just so much fun dueling while hoping for a newbie to log on.  Other pvp games at least got some form of PVE to waste time, from what I hear, DF got nothing.

If the developer cannot provide some miraclous recovery fast, they will sink when the hype dies.  Tabula Rasa anyone?

Aye.

The whole point behind Darkfall was to be what UO was before the split. The devs didnt like how Felucca killed the game for PvPers so they started working on Darkfall in 2001. They planned out the game, the concepts etc.

What they didnt get was that the game they were building is based on a system that nearly killed another game. They tried to work around this by claiming the game will appeal to a niche submarket, which it will. The sad part is that that niche market is a parasitic playerbase and needs to feed off those who dont gank/pvp. Without them it is felucca all over again and will in a short time become just as vacant as Felucca did. The devs will realize that in order to save the game they will need to make changes, and they will end up alienating those who are still playing in hopes of getting fresh blood into the game.

Great concept. Was fun in Beta. Totally broken on release, as servers could not handle real population loads, there were huge numbers of bugs, and central concepts had not been tested on a large scale and ended up being an epic fail when they were (city building and control worked fine when they wiped beta servers regularly).

Specifically, how is Darkfall going to handle zerg guilds dominating all of the capturable cities? I've seen nothing about this, probably because there is nothing that's been tested. Maybe I missed something on the web site and forums, which I could check if they had forums that worked. Seriously...how hard is it to have working forums?
 

About their programming:

When the noob programmers over at Adventurine learn the difference between aspx and php ,they might be able to fix their website and server(s).   *cough*

Only fools use php when they know they will have alot traffic. I have lost all of the little respect I had for these devs.

asp.net for payment gateway

Go back to school!

Originally posted by kedoremos

Don't even think about getting into a debate with me about what a macro is vs. a bot or anything. That's a waste of time and you know it. In a game where you can skill yourself by simply pressing a button under cover of safety with very little chance of dying, the intricate differences between 'macro' and 'bot' are moot at best.

Exactly.

I'm so sick of the "hardcore" trying to justify and argue macroing vs. botting. Just, no - you're cheating the system....end of story.

Originally posted by Fibsdk

 

of "gold" and man hours to build these great cities only to have them burnt down in one night when the guilds were asleep. 

Minor correction:

In shadowbane the siege mechanics give the defender  a window within which to choose a siege time. It would be impossible to broadside a city while the guild is asleep (unless they are just being negligent). Most guilds will have several days advance warning after a bane circle is activated outside their city.

Originally posted by Shard101

 

About their programming:

When the noob programmers over at Adventurine learn the difference between aspx and php ,they might be able to fix their website and server(s).   *cough*

Only fools use php when they know they will have alot traffic. I have lost all of the little respect I had for these devs.

 

 

asp.net for payment gateway

Go back to school!

That's just total BS man. I have maintained both php and asp(x) websites for over 8 years.

Aventurine just have no clue how to properly host a high traffic website and forum. Period!

That's entirely different.  vBulletin is one of the most popular used professional forum tools and even that they cannot keep up and running lol. 

----------

Back on topic:

The game seems to be already doomed from the start if they going to allow legal macro'ing.

No sane player is ever going to be put up with that and turn their back at DFO instantly.

But then again.... no sane player is even gonna buy DFO. So I guess we can just leave it by that.

Macro'ing is just cheating. Period! Non debatable!

I wonder whatever happened to the people about actually playing the game? 

What's the point to macro all your skills to max? What you gonna do? Just PK noobs 24/7 and spam the chat channels how L337 you are??

Seriously.... what's the point in playing an MMO if you are not even slightly interested in the core gameplay feature? Namely progressing your character.

It's just pathetic and one big joke! 

Originally posted by Guillermo197

Originally posted by Shard101

 

About their programming:

When the noob programmers over at Adventurine learn the difference between aspx and php ,they might be able to fix their website and server(s).   *cough*

Only fools use php when they know they will have alot traffic. I have lost all of the little respect I had for these devs.

 

 

asp.net for payment gateway

Go back to school!

 

That's just total BS man. I have maintained both php and asp(x) websites for over 8 years.

Aventurine just have no clue how to properly host a high traffic website and forum. Period!

That's entirely different.  vBulletin is one of the most popular used professional forum tools and even that they cannot keep up and running lol. 

----------

Back on topic:

The game seems to be already doomed from the start if they going to allow legal macro'ing.

No sane player is ever going to be put up with that and turn their back at DFO instantly.

But then again.... no sane player is even gonna buy DFO. So I guess we can just leave it by that.

 

Macro'ing is just cheating. Period! Non debatable!

I wonder whatever happened to the people about actually playing the game? 

What's the point to macro all your skills to max? What you gonna do? Just PK noobs 24/7 and spam the chat channels how L337 you are??

Seriously.... what's the point in playing an MMO if you are not even slightly interested in the core gameplay feature? Namely progressing your character.

It's just pathetic and one big joke! 

Macroing per se is not a big issue.  In SWG we can queue attacks.  Macroing is just another step in that direction.  In WoW, instead of lining up 6 buttons and pressing them in order, we sometimes weave some combos into a macro and save some finger motions.
 

Macroing to max skill is a reflection of how poor the game is designed.  If your character's skill levels up naturally as you do your regular normal stuffs, there is no point to macro.  Say in EQ, after every level ( OK DF has no level, but here I am just illustrating a game design ), you get to level up you whatever skill ( say 1hand sword ) by 5 points.  So a lvl 5 player will have sword skills from 20 (just leveled) to 25 (after maxing).  This 5 point difference is not going to break the game, and by normal fighting you will easily max to 25 before next level.  So there is no point to macro.  You do your normal things and you get your skills maxed.

In DF, well enuf has been said.  You have to swing and swing, to level up.  YOu have no character levels, you can go straight to skill max, and max skill vs starter skill means hell and heaven.  So if you pvp will you pvp with max level or starter zero level?  Macroing to max skill becomes the obviouis way out.

This also comes to another related issue.  There is nothing to do in this game but pvp.  Kill someone or be killed.  Everything irrational makes sense when we realised that the dev is making an empty box in which we walk in naked and tried to beat the crap out of each other. Everyone walks in, expecting to be a hero, but finding that all he has is a naked character, so what do they do?  Macro, speed hack, all that can be done to try to be a hero.