Originally posted by mrw0lf

I prefer classless for a very simple reason.

I prefer a game that allows only 1 char per server and you cant really have that with classes without people complaining you are limiting play.

Thats why i using a Rock, Paper and the Scissors system would work, giving the player the finger and forcing the player to communicate and teamwork with other players to achive goals

The problem isnt the system(s) used. Its the players.

There is a happy medium, and its been used in many games. That medium is to have the classes, but have skills and abilities to choose from that aren't "required" and where they aren't any more or less powerful, just different.

The problem is, someone would come onto a thread and proclaim their's as the ultimate build, everyone else will follow suit, and over time that somehow becomes the standard of the class.

It doesn't really matter what devs do. The problem is that too many players don't build the character they want to build, they build the one they think they should. Because instead of making fun characters people would rather have the most powerful ones.

Originally posted by merv808

The problem isnt the system(s) used. Its the players.

There is a happy medium, and its been used in many games. That medium is to have the classes, but have skills and abilities to choose from that aren't "required" and where they aren't any more or less powerful, just different.

The problem is, someone would come onto a thread and proclaim their's as the ultimate build, everyone else will follow suit, and over time that somehow becomes the standard of the class.

It doesn't really matter what devs do. The problem is that too many players don't build the character they want to build, they build the one they think they should. Because instead of making fun characters people would rather have the most powerful ones.

Thats also a part of what happens in WoW where a Guild would only take in Holy Healing Priests

Originally posted by merv808

The problem isnt the system(s) used. Its the players.

There is a happy medium, and its been used in many games. That medium is to have the classes, but have skills and abilities to choose from that aren't "required" and where they aren't any more or less powerful, just different.

The problem is, someone would come onto a thread and proclaim their's as the ultimate build, everyone else will follow suit, and over time that somehow becomes the standard of the class.

It doesn't really matter what devs do. The problem is that too many players don't build the character they want to build, they build the one they think they should. Because instead of making fun characters people would rather have the most powerful ones.

IMO It doesn't have to be like that. A well designed and balanced classless system, with the apropriate natural penalties, will ensure there's no "ultimate build" for every situation.

As starman999 said, in the original SWG most people just picked up the character they liked with whatever mix of skills they wanted and enjoyed the freedom of individuality.

Personally I would love a fine classless game with well planned natural penalties.

Originally posted by Tatum

I'd agree with most of whats been said.

Uber builds should only be a problem with combat heavy games.  If theres a true, player driven economy and all the jobs that come with it, you'd have to expect that players will build their characters to fill these jobs.  When it comes to combat, a certain amount of the players are always going to gravitate towards the FOTM builds, even if it's a class system.

Balance the system with natural penalties.  Sure, you can wear that plate armor and cast spells, but there will be a penalty to your casting ability.  Another important balance would be attributes, which I think MMOs have always over looked.  If attributes are important, then it will be hard to make a tank mage type of character because they need certain high attributes to be a good fighter (strength, dexterity, constitution) and other high attributes to be a good caster (intelligence, wisdom, etc.). 

Please CAP the skill system.  Theres no point in even having a progression system if everyone can max out every skill.  Yea, yea, it might take forever, but the veterans will always have infinately more skills than the newer players.

And yes, I'd go for a GOOD class system, but their getting even harder to find.  To be a good class system, you still need options for customization (specs, skills, multi-classing, etc).  What we're seeing now is getting more and more generic and thoughtless.

You dont need a skill cap per se if the game has tactical constraints whereas you cant use all skills at once. Look at eve online for example. EVen though a vet might be to fill many different roles- he casn only fulfill one role at a time. Thus newbies still have a role that is needed.

Vets will be diverse while newbies are specialists

Saying a classless system won't work is like saying collectible card games or Final Fantasy 7s materia system won't work. If you set up your mmo to have a list of skills and make people take only certain ones with them into battle, then it'll work fine. Guild Wars does this, doesn't it?

There is a happy medium though as a previous poster mentioned, and that is having classes, but also allowing for customization within the class. Allow people to add a few abilities from other classes to their build, and you end up with tons of different ways to play, all of which can work. The only problem with this system is that, as people have mentioned, there generally pops up an uber build which people think HAS to be done. This happened a lot in FFXI -- you could choose a subjob, but according to the masses, only a few were worth it. The problem came from a classic example -- the fighter mage.

If someone wanted to be a Warrior/White Mage, most people thought it was a bad idea. Why? Because all of the skills were affected by stats, and the warrior did not have mage stats. So subjobbing white mage wouldn't work, because you wouldn't be good enough of a mage. The problem was that there was only so many armor choices you could get, and none that a warrior could wear would really make you a better mage.

That's why you need to pair a classless system/hybrid system with customization of equipment as well. If the only armor I can get adds strength, then it IS dumb to be a warrior/white mage, because it won't be worth it. You'll be much better as something else. But if you can create armor with any stats that you want, then you can add mage stats to the heavy armor, and you'll be much better.  In this way, the classes are more like suggestions, and you can alter your character any way you see fit.

The crux of the problem is really in healing. Give me a reason not to take healing skills in a classless system. I mean, if I'm a warrior build soloing, it's far more efficient to dump a couple points into sub-par healing abilities than to pack jillions of potions in the wide majority of games. If I'm a caster build, well that's just another spell to add to the pile.

It works in multiclass systems because they can place restrictions on healing, and healing takes up a job slot that could otherwise be used to substantially boost the main job's abilities. But in a totally classless system, 90% of people will be able to heal to some degree.

The reason is that in a game that's classless/hybrid, you should be planning your moves around your group.  I consider it like a collectible card game (although I've never played one, so pardon me if I'm mistaken here).  You have a deck.  You're going out to camp some monsters with 4 buddies.  You all are in a main city (hub) and are determining what to take.  Specialization IS a good thing.  That's why classes exist in the first place.  The problem I have with it is when the game determines what classes there are.  I want to be able to determine my own class.  

Anyways, so you and 4 buddies are there.  What should you take?  Does someone want to heal? Do you all want to take one healing spell and spread the love around?  Each person be responsible for one other?  Maybe have two half healer half warriors?  

If you make monsters that are very different strategically, a classless system allows people to come up with ANY strategy they want.  Make a monster that attacks everyone randomly, regardless of emnity/hate.  How would that work with normal party mechanics?  It wouldn't really -- can't be a tank unless you are taking the damage.  Make a monster that can't be provoked and what happens? 

There are a ton of different strategies you could use -- everyone be warrior with some healing is one simple one.   The fact is I shouldn't be limited by what my job is -- I should have enough skills that I'm adaptable to different situations.

Right now there aren't very many "different situations" in mmo's, so class systems work just fine.  But have different situations would make fighting a lot more fun, and being able to adapt to those situations would be really fun.

You're right -- in a solo mode, everyone would take healing.  But MMOs should be about grouping, and in a group setting, that completely changes.

Except that rarely happens. Everyone in a classless game is expected to have full healing abilities so they can sub in as a backup healer unless there is a real detriment to levelling your healing.

Do you have an example of a game like this?  I've never seen it before, so I can't really talk about the fact that no one does it.

I can say that's their problem -- that's the easiest plan probably, but I'm sure it's not the best way to fight, either.  As a game designer you need to persuade people to try new things.  Give them an incentive for not having all the same skills. 

It all comes down to implementation.  It definitely COULD work, if done right.

Originally posted by Draq

Except that rarely happens. Everyone in a classless game is expected to have full healing abilities so they can sub in as a backup healer unless there is a real detriment to levelling your healing.

I've never seen that to be the case in AC, UO or EVE Online. What MMOs were you referring to?

I do know what you mean by essentially being forced to learn healing.  Like in Ryzom and Link Realms, nobody wanted to group with me when they found out I didn't have a heal, so I couldn't heal or rez if need be.  And I was actually kind of gimped by this since I focused entirely on melee DPS, it made me less valuable, especially at higher levels as I was nearing max on melee skills, everybody else started working on other skills and being more hybridized, but I still only do one thing, so all they have to do is carry multiple sets of gear and fill more roles than I can.  And sure I may do a little more damage than other people but that is all I do, by choice of course, but most groups do not want a person that relies on healing all the time and can't heal or rez others when everyone else can do it.

On a side note, in terms of fun I have found that neither system is defacto more fun than the other I think it depends more on offering good options, rather than just offering more.

I really like this thread, it has a lot of good discussion on a very important aspect of design. I'm still not too sure which way to yet either given that both ideas have merit.

If I break it down in my head it looks like this. 

• The game world offers things to do.
• Characters interact with the game through abilities(attack, chat, move, stealth, etc.).

So the basic idea is how do I offer the skills to the player? In a package(class)? or just let them pick? What are the other ways that a bunch of aspects can be attained? 

What if the abilities were say house building materials?( Wood, metal, doors, windows, chandeliers, sinks, etc. ) Every house wants a door, a couple windows, a roof, a floor, etc.  Here's the foundation of your house so give this (class) to everyone since it makes sense to have them anyway.  Sure some might have really tall houses and some really wide ones but all and all they have the things that make every house a house.

Whats left now? Well, all the things that let you make your house your home.  You like light so add a whole bunch into lights and windows.  You like sleeping so choose a really high level bedroom because you want to expand it later when you can afford more.  When finished you have a house you can call your own, similar in function to others, but made especially for your (play)lifestyle.

Now over time you add on to your house with additions and renovations that make things so much better than when you started. Other people are building their houses and some look the same because they have similar tastes, and some look very different.  All are relevant as houses though.

• Now if you live in a climate where it there are constant earthquakes, it only makes sense to make a house in a specific way. Varied climates = varied homes
• If you 'cap' building, and the cap ends up with all houses being the same because everyone started with the same floorplan then you need to allow people to design their own floorplan. What is the floorplan? It is the ideal mold of your dream home that 'you want to obtain' your own vision. If you want your home to strech across the entire region with 1000 rooms, then the investment will be great, time will be great, but so will the reward if you complete it.
• If parts of your house keep falling apart while you renovate other areas then you might get fed up and just sell your house feeling cheated that you were dealt such a subtle restriction on what you thought was possible, while you now spend time micromanaging repairs just to keep on track.
• Items increase your houses worth, but never undermine its inherent value should they be stolen.
• If someone destroys someones house, and you instantly get another house ad infinitum the value of housing drops greatly.  Houses must eventually fade into history to make room for the new lest your market become overpopulated and stale with mansions taking up all the prime real estate

This is of course has been just as much a new concept to me as anyone who reads this since I just made it up for illustration, but when I think about the analogy, it really has helped me see alot of the critical elements I need to tweak in my own design...

Race will embody my "classes" because it is the 'floorplan/frame' of the house that you get to add to. Anything that a normal physical being could do will be inherent in your race (moving, fighting, running, tending to wounds, basic crafting for survival, etc to varying degrees) And the customizations will be the unneeded but greatly desired elements that prove your specialty like martial feats, spells, research, language, leadership, deception, etc. Horizontal advancement will be the main focus, with a vertical element reward based on formulas involving but not linearly tied to time played.

EDIT: Since I am a proponant of decay in order to defeat the static nature of development, I would add this.

• To keep up repairs on your house and things you've worked hard to build up in the past, you may be able to pay to get the job done.  This way you can still focus on your next project, while not losing value and having to 'grind' through pesky repairs just to bring it back up.

So basically to me this translates to characters having a state of survival needing to be maintained without having to SPECIFICALLY attend to the skill that would naturally decay. Maybe just grouping with that warrior brings back the good old days of when you used to hack and slash your way in the world?...This just gave me another idea on groups :), back to the document...

Originally posted by CactusmanX

I do know what you mean by essentially being forced to learn healing.  Like in Ryzom and Link Realms, nobody wanted to group with me when they found out I didn't have a heal, so I couldn't heal or rez if need be.  And I was actually kind of gimped by this since I focused entirely on melee DPS, it made me less valuable, especially at higher levels as I was nearing max on melee skills, everybody else started working on other skills and being more hybridized, but I still only do one thing, so all they have to do is carry multiple sets of gear and fill more roles than I can.  And sure I may do a little more damage than other people but that is all I do, by choice of course, but most groups do not want a person that relies on healing all the time and can't heal or rez others when everyone else can do it.

On a side note, in terms of fun I have found that neither system is defacto more fun than the other I think it depends more on offering good options, rather than just offering more.

 

Of course they wouldn't want to group with you.  Not having any form of a res or even a small heal would literally have been like saying "I am so much more important than you that I don't need to do anything to build team skills".

Of coarse the game balance so that people who want to specialize is to make carrying spare gear very burdensome, and switching gear burdensome as well:   1- have very hefty requirements for using most skills, the simplest being gear 2- gear itself takes up a lot of space/wieght,  meaning that it's generally a bad idea to carry an extra set of cloths/gear  3- switching gear is a time consuming task and one that requires you to be completely out of combat.

Originally posted by paulscott

Originally posted by CactusmanX

I do know what you mean by essentially being forced to learn healing.  Like in Ryzom and Link Realms, nobody wanted to group with me when they found out I didn't have a heal, so I couldn't heal or rez if need be.  And I was actually kind of gimped by this since I focused entirely on melee DPS, it made me less valuable, especially at higher levels as I was nearing max on melee skills, everybody else started working on other skills and being more hybridized, but I still only do one thing, so all they have to do is carry multiple sets of gear and fill more roles than I can.  And sure I may do a little more damage than other people but that is all I do, by choice of course, but most groups do not want a person that relies on healing all the time and can't heal or rez others when everyone else can do it.

On a side note, in terms of fun I have found that neither system is defacto more fun than the other I think it depends more on offering good options, rather than just offering more.

 

 

Of course they wouldn't want to group with you.  Not having any form of a res or even a small heal would literally have been like saying "I am so much more important than you that I don't need to do anything to build team skills".

Of coarse the game balance so that people who want to specialize is to make carrying spare gear very burdensome, and switching gear burdensome as well:   1- have very hefty requirements for using most skills, the simplest being gear 2- gear itself takes up a lot of space/wieght,  meaning that it's generally a bad idea to carry an extra set of cloths/gear  3- switching gear is a time consuming task and one that requires you to be completely out of combat.

It's not saying, "I'm more important than you," it is saying "I have specialized skills, let's work together with what you have and do something fun."  Everyone doesn't need those skills -- if the group wants to have everyone have those skills, that's one thing.  But there are definitely other strategies you could employ that would work just as well or better.  There should be other things you could do -- maybe a skill to bounce hate off other people, or maybe a different buff, or something like that.  Healing and rezzing shouldn't be required by everyone in a group, and if they are, either the game is flawed, or the people playing it are dumb.

Thats the thing the game doesn't require you to know healing and such for a group to get by, but since you can learn it with no penalty to your other skills everybody does because even if you don't focus in it or recieve a penalty for wearing armor you are better off having it than not. I can see the appeal of having a group where everybody knew how to heal themselves and others because it is useful, but I don't want to pick skills just because they are useful, I pick skills because they make sense in the character concept I made.  And it seems to undermine the concept of a RPG or the reason for using a skill based system if the players are just going to shun the other players that don't have the "required" skills and go for the ones that have them, just like everyone else.  Or indeed why people would want to make characters that all have healing abilities for any reason other than utility

You really don't need to defend yourself, it was an attempt to share what would be going through the other players mind.   Just a matter of not being clear.

Originally posted by duran3d

Originally posted by merv808

The problem isnt the system(s) used. Its the players.

There is a happy medium, and its been used in many games. That medium is to have the classes, but have skills and abilities to choose from that aren't "required" and where they aren't any more or less powerful, just different.

The problem is, someone would come onto a thread and proclaim their's as the ultimate build, everyone else will follow suit, and over time that somehow becomes the standard of the class.

It doesn't really matter what devs do. The problem is that too many players don't build the character they want to build, they build the one they think they should. Because instead of making fun characters people would rather have the most powerful ones.

 

IMO It doesn't have to be like that. A well designed and balanced classless system, with the apropriate natural penalties, will ensure there's no "ultimate build" for every situation.

As starman999 said, in the original SWG most people just picked up the character they liked with whatever mix of skills they wanted and enjoyed the freedom of individuality.

Personally I would love a fine classless game with well planned natural penalties.

 

I completely agree. It doesn't have to be that way... and it definitely shouldn't be.

But even in games where there's not an "ultimate build" someone will act like theirs is and new players will always ask how they should build each of their own characters...(thats probably my biggest pet peeve in MMOs)

The point I'm making is, this: Even if a developer found a perfect classless system, the players would find some way to unbalance it. And too many similar toons running around is the fastest way to do it.

I have been thinking about a good class/skill system for some time now.

Here are some key points i have set down for myslef:

* Any class/skill-system needs support from the entire game. It dosent matter how well balanced your classes are or how well thought out your skillsystem is, its all useless if your game does not support it. For example, healing. If most encounters in the game can be won, with healing from a hybrid class than there is less/no need for a pure healing class (or a player who has focused all their skills on one task -healing). Same goes for DPS. If anyone (no matter their skillset) can do similar amounts of damage, than people who focused only on DPS are not needed. You must have a system that rewards having some pure classes in your group. Being a hybrid, has its charms.

* Playebase has to support your class/skillsystem. As mentioned in an earlier example, if your playerbase expects all players to be able to heal themselves than all your efforts into designing a good class/skillsystem are in vain. So the game has t be designed in a way that let the playerbase know, that being a jack of all trades, will mean your a master of none. For example, you can enforse skill/spell interruption when hit. This will make payers understand that they can not heal and tank at the same time, and no-one can expect them to do it.

* Reward instead of bunish. You want to avoid be-all-win-all combos. You probably dont want a caster with massive health pool and high armor, that is able to summon minions, do area effect damage, use stealth and heal himself and his minions. You couls solve this by dis-allowing heavy armor and magic to excist together or by weakening one if player chooses the other, but thats bunishment and feels very forced and not fun for players. An alternative solution would be to reward players when they make choises you feel are right. For exaple, give a player who chooses heavy armor, shield and devesive fighting skills with the Knight title (and appropriate bonuses). A player who chooses light/holy magic, light armour, staff weapon could be rewarded the priest title. These kind of rewards would give the player some sense of identity, a goal to aim for ('i really want that High priest title, id better not take that fire magic skill now, but invest more in holy magic.') and makes it alot easier for players to explain their build to others.

Originally posted by Thunderhead

Lol sorry, Political Ideologys aside

Well, lets bring it back up, again!

The Classless System, it is the Dream

I had a talk with Ianonmmorpg, on my other thread, and I felt I needed to talk abit about it.

 

I can see from a roleplaying perspective how it would be so elegant and magnificant that we could make a Char/Hero just the way we want, taking a big pool of abillitys and adding those you feel using.

But i submit, that it will lead ppl to obious choices, the wide range of possibillitys will become a limitation, because in the many imaginative situations there would be a wide range of abillitys that, i would not be able to live without. The old saying, why take the hard way when the easy way is much better.

 

Then in the End, we will all end up having the similar abillitys and we will not have reached the goal of freedom, but Iron chain us.

 

In instances, i see problems without the system, but i do also see problems with the system. I suggest a compromise? Something thats halfway there, and halfway away from it?

Well, there is 3 possibilitys ('cept the usual one):

Totaly limitless (you pick all your skills from a big list or you can learn every skill). This system however have some balancing issues or if you have every skill it tends to get a bit too much for most players.

Select your own class skills (Like in RIFTS/Palladium, Runequest and many other Pen and paper RPGs). The easiest one but you need some kind of templete because all people dont want to spend a long time creating their character. It can be pretty well balanced because every class can only select skills from a specific list for that class.

Multiclasses (like Warhammer fantasy roleplaying game) you can have a lot of classes which gives a better mix of skills then in usual MMOs.

I agree that classes at least needs some choices more than the speccs we usually get, to create your own class from scratch however will upset the gameing balance.