"This genre will fail"

Yes. I feel the same about the Internets

I think OP's angst can boiled down to a couple of simple things.

When MMO's started out the developers worked very hard to create virtual worlds, and it drew in a certain portion of the gaming community, (geeks if you will) but a large portion of consumers avoided them for the very same reason. (among others, including accessability)

Slowly but surely, Dev's realized if they made MMO's more like 'games' and not worlds, more players would be willing participate.

WOW was merely the finalist in a long line of games that kept trying to be more causal consumer friendly, appealing, and their large fanbase today shows that it must have worked.

But you can't out-wow WOW, and too many Devs since then keep trying to 'improve' on WOW when in fact, it really can't be if you stay true to their forumula, they have it nailed.

To really succeed, someone's going to have to go off the trail.  Not sure going retro is the right thing, one of big complaints against Vanguard was that it was too retro in areas (timesinks) that modern players dont like, such as long travel times, punative death penalties and corpse runs, and time consuming crafting.

I remember back in the day riding 20 minutes one way to my favorite leveling spot every day, and sometimes traveling even further to get to a decent RVR area.

We tolerated it back in the day, but now that we've tasted the forbidden fruit of easier gaming most don't want to go back.

Everything was so much more fun when we geeks had our games for ourself. Now its so causal so I have to cry everytime I play an Wii game.  And I do as well remember strange doings before wow, like an real life an such, but things wasnt so bad before that. That journey you made for some level grinding was maybe boring then but is wow+quest helper the way to go? I dont think so.  Just becuse its so much easier and attracts more pepole it dosent have to be the greatest thing made (just like mcdonalds, sorry had to do that).  

And Vanguard had alot of good ideas that was trashed and sadly became an clone with a diffrent skin.

But you are right when you wrote about the developers that worked hard to create virtual worlds to attract some type of pepole. I want them back so they can produce a time killer that attracts my geeky nerve. Like a steampunk fantasy mmo :)

MMO's face many challenges that other games don't.

The biggest are: no ending, persistency, players playing at different paces.

Those are just a few I could list about one hundred.

Personally I think someone needs to rethink the MMORPG from the ground up. They are still just graphical MUDs, but MUDs have small communities and active GMs, making roleplay much more viable.

Lets face it MMOs suck. And the best way to make a great MMO is to not make a MMO. Make a great single player game, then slowly add multiplayer components until it becomes an MMO. That's what I would do.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I think OP's angst can boiled down to a couple of simple things.

When MMO's started out the developers worked very hard to create virtual worlds, and it drew in a certain portion of the gaming community, (geeks if you will) but a large portion of consumers avoided them for the very same reason. (among others, including accessability)

Slowly but surely, Dev's realized if they made MMO's more like 'games' and not worlds, more players would be willing participate.

WOW was merely the finalist in a long line of games that kept trying to be more causal consumer friendly, appealing, and their large fanbase today shows that it must have worked.

But you can't out-wow WOW, and too many Devs since then keep trying to 'improve' on WOW when in fact, it really can't be if you stay true to their forumula, they have it nailed.

To really succeed, someone's going to have to go off the trail.  Not sure going retro is the right thing, one of big complaints against Vanguard was that it was too retro in areas (timesinks) that modern players dont like, such as long travel times, punative death penalties and corpse runs, and time consuming crafting.

I remember back in the day riding 20 minutes one way to my favorite leveling spot every day, and sometimes traveling even further to get to a decent RVR area.

We tolerated it back in the day, but now that we've tasted the forbidden fruit of easier gaming most don't want to go back.

 

I often have to remind people that MMORPG's are just games and should be approached the same way as you approach other games, within reason. That's why I feel the need to remind people what the term MMO-RPG means. MMO is what defines the genre; what makes it unique compared to another genre. RPG is just the sub-genre of the MMO. RPG could easily be replaced with RTS, FPS, Action Adventure and etc with their own varying degree of success. So to be clear, I'm concentrating on the MMORPG games, not the other sub genre's.

So, I approach the MMORPG genre the same way I would the RPG genre, with a couple exceptions of course to account for the uniqueness of the genre. As I've stated already, I look for good character custimization, and an interesting advancement system. That really is what makes the RPG genre unique in itself. Being able to play and communicate with others, and having your character saved in a persistent world for a FEE is what makes the MMO genre unique. So combine the two terms, and you have a game that allows you to create your own character look, customize his abilities through advancement, while being able to communicate and play with other people in a persistent world, if you pay monthly for the privelage.

Many people say you can't out-wow WoW. Well, that's like saying you can't out-WoW the Ultima series, the Final Fantasy series, the KoToR series, Mass Effect, Fable, Elder scroll's etc etc. The truth is that all of these games are in the same genre and offer similar gameplay, yet we still buy them without bitching or moaning and we enjoy them. So why can't the MMORPG genre have similar gameplay in every MMORPG, since RPG's have similar gameplay and are successful? I think the only valid argument is because of the subscription fee.

The subscription fee is what it all comes down to. In regular RPG's, people are willing to buy future releases, even though they are like past releases, because it's better than playing the old game over and over again. You get to experience a new world, maybe a slightly different take on the character creation and advancement system. But the games are pretty similar. The games evolve not so much by altering core gameplay features from previous titles, yet they evolve by creating better graphics, animations, and by introducing one or two new features that has never or has rarely been put in an RPG before. Normal RPG's could release every 3-6 months and possibly less and still be bought up, because people would rather try out these new games than play the old ones. So why are MMORPG's so different?

They are different, because the community chooses to approach the two genre's differently. You can pay for a subscription to a MMORPG until the next one releases, but people choose not to. It's not really because the new games are a copy of the old games, because people prefer to play through new stories and play new characters rather than stick with old characters or replay content. It could be the friends you make in that older game your playing that's keeping you there. That's a possibility. Another possibility is that the new games are actually subpar or doesn't evolve the genre forward, the way single player RPG's tend to do.

So I don't think MMORPG's necessarily have to go off the beaten trail, because the history of other genre's show us that people will buy new games that aren't much different than an older game, to experience new content.

Regarding your last point, about introducing outdated game mechanics, I have to agree with you on that. If a company created a 2d single player RPG, it probably would fail. It's no different in the MMORPG genre when a game like Vanguard implements old MMORPG mechanics, such as death penalties and other time sinks. I don't think this is a bad thing either. The genre evolved from being a game only "no-lifes" can play, to a genre that any person can play instead of watching T.V. or whatever it is they do in the evenings, and actually achieve something meaningful. Making games more accessible doesn't mean they have to make them tedious though. Doing chores for NPC's that no hero in their right mind would ever do, doesn't constitute a great gameplay experience and that's what the genre has devolved to. So the genre is evolving in accessibility and graphics, but is devolving in other areas.

I'd like to take a moment to name of some positive improvements in the genre in the last few years. Some notable achievements and evolutions in the genre since WoW include world phasing (ie. LoTRO & GW); twitch combat (DDO); refined PvP system (WAR), refined arena pvp (GW); companion characters (GW). I'm sure you all can name quite a few more. I'm personally looking forward to SW:ToR for a MMORPG that has evolved into be more of a RPG than previous games. I do think it "may" hurt the MMO part of the genre, but the way the community has devolved into, that can't be a bad thing (for me).

Originally posted by astrob0y

Everything was so much more fun when we geeks had our games for ourself. Now its so causal so I have to cry everytime I play an Wii game.  And I do as well remember strange doings before wow, like an real life an such, but things wasnt so bad before that. That journey you made for some level grinding was maybe boring then but is wow+quest helper the way to go? I dont think so.  Just becuse its so much easier and attracts more pepole it dosent have to be the greatest thing made (just like mcdonalds, sorry had to do that).  

And Vanguard had alot of good ideas that was trashed and sadly became an clone with a diffrent skin.

But you are right when you wrote about the developers that worked hard to create virtual worlds to attract some type of pepole. I want them back so they can produce a time killer that attracts my geeky nerve. Like a steampunk fantasy mmo :)

I heard an older gentlemen (super geek, old school) at Gamestop (a customer) talking about how he's excited for the Firefly MMORPG to release in 2009. I haven't heard anything about a Firefly MMORPG, but if what he says is true, that may be exciting.

Originally posted by GreenChaos

MMO's face many challenges that other games don't.

The biggest are: no ending, persistency, players playing at different paces.

Those are just a few I could list about one hundred.

Personally I think someone needs to rethink the MMORPG from the ground up. They are still just graphical MUDs, but MUDs have small communities and active GMs, making roleplay much more viable.

Lets face it MMOs suck. And the best way to make a great MMO is to not make a MMO. Make a great single player game, then slowly add multiplayer components until it becomes an MMO. That's what I would do.

You may be right. Lots of businesses out there have to rebuild their business processes (how they operate) from the ground up, and the result (including new information systems) is a higher profit and customer satisfaction.  What spurs this change? Competition. It'll probably be aspiring developers (still in school) that do this, but someone has to bite the bullet and revolutionize the genre if it's to get exciting again. Or at least evolve the genre at a faster pace, especially considering how long it takes to develop a MMO and even play it.

In reference to the differences between MMO's and RPG's, check out my really long above post. Sorry about the length, but I'm the type of person who is a deep thinker and can talk a lot.

Originally posted by Clippe

I agree with the OP's points too, but I doubt that the MMORPG genre will ever die out. I've played plenty of MMOs and plenty of games from other genres, and my best gaming memories are without a doubt from playing MMOs. Games like CS have their charm but there's nothing like playing an open PvP game with a good guild, that's what gaming is all about for me. Sure, there are plenty of asses in MMOs, but I guess that's just the way of the internet, and if you don't know how to avoid them you might be better off just selling that computer :P

I agree as well.

Originally posted by Stormwave1

Unfortunately, I completely agree with all of your points. I'm not sure if it will mean the death of the genre, but it certainly needs something different before it dies off.

I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ1 first launched.

The first MMORPGs were for a more niche market, but when the larger companies realised the amount of money that could be made, lots followed suit. Resulting in much higher production games, which also means more of a financial risk. The answer to that was to attract the casual market, as it's much bigger, which is exactly what WoW did (and is still reaping the benefits of). This resulted in a huge watering down of many features though, like travelling, communicating, role-playing.

Most people play MMORPGs now just to get to the next level. There is no slow pace option anymore. I tend to walk around, explore, talk to people, help people out, etc, but this just results in me getting left behind, and being called a "n00b" etc. I do also hate the way every single quest, levelling possibilities, maps, skill sets are studied to death, and unless you follow an exact path you are "gimped". There is also no exploration, no hidden secrets that nobody else knows, absolutely nothing unique. It has also resulted in the genre becoming a lot easier, there is no real penatly for death in any MMORPG any more, meaning there is no tension when you get in trouble, just die and respawn. Everything is also handed to you, every quest has map points, so much information you never have to think, sometimes even shortcuts to get there to prevent the "tedious" task of enjoying the world.

I used to spend hours on EQ just sitting round talking, or walking from place to place for fun, playing games, or exploring. None of that exists anymore, it's just grind, grind, grind and when you get to the top level, moan that theres nothing to do.

EVE is a nice alternative to this generic formula, but I'm giving up on MMORPGs for now. Hopefully FML will be fun :)

It wont mean the death of the Genre, games in general are getting to easy, to uninspired to simplistic, even mmorpgs are just kill this and go get that...the genre just like gaming in general for the majority is turning to  kids as their main income. Fine, that means that the only change we will see is the population of many mmorpgs will be mostly kids, along with most games will be marketed to kids.

I'm sorry OP, but the genre is doing everything but failing.

Oh sure, you might not like it, but the fact is you are just not aware enough of history. Seriously.

All this has happened already and will always happen.

It happened with music and movies and literature. But gamers like yourself can't seem to connect the dots. You guys need to really start looking at the bigger picture. It's quite amazing even if you don't have an appreciation for it.

Quite frankly, I would love to go inside your life and look at your taste in music, movies and literature.

Are you an avid blues or jazz or classcical fan? Do you horde movies from the 30's and 40's becasue they are different than today? Well, if so then you full on know how those specific genres are more niche than what is being played in popular venues today. If not then perhaps you are part of the popular culture and are the antithesis of what has gone before, what started it all.

Sorry but most if not all music I hear on the radio is dull, same old key signatures, same 4/4 and sometimes (gasp) 3/4 no interesting modulations or harmonic movement. But it is what it is and I smile because I full on know that history is just playing itself out like it always has.

MMo's have moved into the mainstream and are here to stay. They might not be what you like (and no reason they should nor should you have to like it) but they are fast becoming very acceptable if not as of yet, "mainstream".

Originally posted by Sovrath

I'm sorry OP, but the genre is doing everything but failing.

Oh sure, you might not like it, but the fact is you are just not aware enough of history. Seriously.

All this has happened already and will always happen.

It happened with music and movies and literature. But gamers like yourself can't seem to connect the dots. You guys need to really start looking at the bigger picture. It's quite amazing even if you don't have an appreciation for it.

Quite frankly, I would love to go inside your life and look at your taste in music, movies and literature.

Are you an avid blues or jazz or classcical fan? Do you horde movies from the 30's and 40's becasue they are different than today? Well, if so then you full on know how those specific genres are more niche than what is being played in popular venues today. If not then perhaps you are part of the popular culture and are the antithesis of what has gone before, what started it all.

Sorry but most if not all music I hear on the radio is dull, same old key signatures, same 4/4 and sometimes (gasp) 3/4 no interesting modulations or harmonic movement. But it is what it is and I smile because I full on know that history is just playing itself out like it always has.

MMo's have moved into the mainstream and are here to stay. They might not be what you like (and no reason they should nor should you have to like it) but they are fast becoming very acceptable if not as of yet, "mainstream".

 

I'm sure the OP is aware of history.  His point was that it was failing in the eyes of the RPG community.  Not  in the eyes of the "Accept that the world likes to make things shitty and history proves this" community.

Persistent online virtual worlds are the future of all entertainment.

Originally posted by Stormwave1

Unfortunately, I completely agree with all of your points. I'm not sure if it will mean the death of the genre, but it certainly needs something different before it dies off.

I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ1 first launched.

The first MMORPGs were for a more niche market, but when the larger companies realised the amount of money that could be made, lots followed suit. Resulting in much higher production games, which also means more of a financial risk. The answer to that was to attract the casual market, as it's much bigger, which is exactly what WoW did (and is still reaping the benefits of). This resulted in a huge watering down of many features though, like travelling, communicating, role-playing.

Most people play MMORPGs now just to get to the next level. There is no slow pace option anymore. I tend to walk around, explore, talk to people, help people out, etc, but this just results in me getting left behind, and being called a "n00b" etc. I do also hate the way every single quest, levelling possibilities, maps, skill sets are studied to death, and unless you follow an exact path you are "gimped". There is also no exploration, no hidden secrets that nobody else knows, absolutely nothing unique. It has also resulted in the genre becoming a lot easier, there is no real penatly for death in any MMORPG any more, meaning there is no tension when you get in trouble, just die and respawn. Everything is also handed to you, every quest has map points, so much information you never have to think, sometimes even shortcuts to get there to prevent the "tedious" task of enjoying the world.

I used to spend hours on EQ just sitting round talking, or walking from place to place for fun, playing games, or exploring. None of that exists anymore, it's just grind, grind, grind and when you get to the top level, moan that theres nothing to do.

EVE is a nice alternative to this generic formula, but I'm giving up on MMORPGs for now. Hopefully FML will be fun :)

Sounds like the problem is YOU and not the games.

No. Seriously. There is as much to see and do in WoW as there was in EQ. There are as many hidden little corners of the world. As many little things to find or get or learn that few others have found, gotten, or learned. Yeah... there is more of a focus on leveling no than there used to be. But that is only overall. It does't HAVE to be that way for you unless YOU want it to be.

You're just fooling yourself. You say that there is nothing secret anymore and that everything is analyzed on third party sites and stuff, as if that wasn't going on in EQ. It was. You just either didn't realize it or were oblivious to the fact because you were different then.

I was reading some posts.  And I also agree I feel like im playing a single player game with the need to group.  Single player game meaning you have to follow a line (example quest line) or else you get left behind with either equipment, or experience.

I remember the Asherons Call days where a patch that had a new quest took the community sometimes WEEKS to figure it out!  There were no quest NPCs that told you where to go and what to do.  I remember people devoting hours, days, weeks to figuring out a quest line.

And then there were no instances it was a group of people got together in hopes that there was nobody in the dungeon.

I miss that.  Your character wasnt a class, it was what you made it to be.  

I do think this made the game really hard.  I still feel Asherons Call is one of the hardest games ive played.  If you died in the obsidian plans at lvl 25 because your were exploring you had to get help to get your stuff back.  You would hopefully get help from your Patron and guild.

Yet another instance in why I will probably never understand why some people play MMO games and do this to themlselves

Anytime something is boiled down to tedious and uninteresting, that's clearly a strong indication that it's probably time to just move along. I've mentioned this in various conversations with friends and on forums many times over, but if the bulk of a genre is something you don't find fun in, why do people insist that they remain doing it? Is it some dark pact made years ago that some are locked into playing games they don't care for else a loved on is tortured and they face financial ruin?

Honestly, we can all interperet what an MMO 'should' be. But as I see it, it comes down to three viable options. First, find the game that caters to what you enjoy about MMO games and play it. Damn the shortcomings, just get to the 'serious business' of playing the chosen game and enjoy the hell out of it. Second option, gather the required revenue, education, and team to create a world with your vision in mind. If you have come up with a new, and exciting universe with something different and appealing to what you believe the majority of the playerbase would like, then you stand to be quite successful. Option three? Stop playing the games you don't like playing. If the current generation of MMO games are not appealing to your sense of what you find fun, why on earth persist with something you no longer enjoy, for any reason?

The second post-point is that the community just.. sucks. Again, if it's something you have a personal dislike for, why be a part of a community you have no interest finding your place in and focusing on the enjoyment of the possibilities, rather than simply moving on to something new? If I had had such contempt for the MMO community, I'd simply just play wih the regular crew of people I've formed bonds with over the years of MMO gaming, and really limit on talking to people that feels like explaining physics to an 8 year old with down syndrome (no denying they're out there; you just have a choice whether to be immersed with it or not). There are quality people in the community out there, and I really don't believe that your only viable option is to either have a stable, all-inclusive "mature" community, or else you're forced to solo and become completely anti-social. There is absolutely a middle ground, and have been fortunate enough to experience that personally. If you approached things from a different perspective, you may have a completely different experience.

The third point struck me as probably the most strange.

In a post where I feel you're overanalyzing a few points and coming to some pretty absolute conclusions, you mention that overanalyzing is.... bad.

Look, I hope that you eventually find a game or community where your perceptions are changed and you find nothing but a really great time playing games. I truly wish that. I am actually sorry that you've found the genre of MMO gaming to be nothing more than a money-sucking cycle with people being the core reason for it's ruin. If I felt the same way, I'd definitely be ready to move on to something else. Hopefully, whatever you decide to do, you have a better feeling about it.

Until the day comes, if it does, that my experience goes down the path as yours, then I'll certainly join you. As for now, I am enjoying MMO games, and see no end in the future.

Best of luck to you,

K~

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

I know it's a bold statement, and no, I don't have a crystal ball. Maybe the genre won't "technically" fail, but the genre is failing for me and probably for most. Here is why:

Not when the market is still growing into the 10+ to 20M users range. You don't like it != others don't.

There are many fun MMORPG out there.

You're  just jaded like the rest of us.   So many games and so much disappointment.    I would still be playing SWG pre-NGE if SOE hadn't screwed it up or Planetside if SOE had really done more for the game instead of neglecting it.   God if I had the money I'd buy the rights to Planetside and rework it and then re-launch it.    Game is just the bomb!

i think the genre was dieing by your froms from around 2004-2008 but i think its coming back because we are starting to see alot of different games come out with fresh ideas most of which wont be very mainstream though.

Originally posted by ianubisi

Persistent online virtual worlds are the future of all entertainment.

Sure, when they become porn.

When I read the title I went "oh jeesh".

But you make some decent points and I tend to agree with all of them. Especially the third point. The analyzation of everything.

Like I said in my theorycrafting thread, it has (in my opinion) a more negative aspect to MMO's than positive. The creation of ready made guilds before the game even hits the shelves is worrying too. It tends to exclude newcomers to the game or even the genre.