Originally posted by HYPERI0N

Originally posted by TheGrue

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online

Nuff said.

You may now begin with the "omfg troll!!!eleventyones" 

 

I too agree with Zeropunctuations review of EvE it is a very accurate review of the SINGLE PLAYER side of EvE. 

EVE has a single player side 
 

I haven't read the review, but EVE is clearly not designed for single player play. It's a game, like most, that does have faults, but if your looking for a game that you can play long term and have loads of fun, I don't think there's a better game out there. Just my HO

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Dude, to get 3mill SP takes a couple months anyway. That's not immediately.

It's not even all my words either - the advice that Caldari or Gallente players are set for lvl 4's at 3mill SP are all over the official Eve forums, and the noob guides.

The agents wont be moved to low-sec either. They are increasing low sec rewards, not reducing the rewards from anywhere.

The only changes they stated that may happen to lvl 4 missions is they may add the improved AI to them at sometime, in which case they will be increasing rewards due to the difficulty.

I havent asked for the game to be made easier either. I simply brought up money issues for new players. I dont know why you go from us having a somewhat-friendly discussion, to this post where you are being condenscending and attempting to talk down to me and putting words in my mouth. I never once said that I want the missions to be made easier. Did you forget that you asked me what money issues new players have? I simply explained why it is not an easy time, and that it is a grind to be able to afford an adequate ship for level 4's if you are limited on skills.

3 mil is a minimum to be able to do missions which are easy. Do these guides say to use rigs ?

I never said it was fact they would be moved. In fact I said it was my opinion, my opinion is never given as fact from me.

You have asked for the game to made easier with all the extra skill training which is not needed. Money issues are a whole other thing and all I can say to that is that there is no money issue for new players. If you can't make money it's because you are losing money somewhere, probably by putting all your money into to ships you cant fly well enough yet  ?

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Dude, to get 3mill SP takes a couple months anyway. That's not immediately.

It's not even all my words either - the advice that Caldari or Gallente players are set for lvl 4's at 3mill SP are all over the official Eve forums, and the noob guides.

The agents wont be moved to low-sec either. They are increasing low sec rewards, not reducing the rewards from anywhere.

The only changes they stated that may happen to lvl 4 missions is they may add the improved AI to them at sometime, in which case they will be increasing rewards due to the difficulty.

I havent asked for the game to be made easier either. I simply brought up money issues for new players. I dont know why you go from us having a somewhat-friendly discussion, to this post where you are being condenscending and attempting to talk down to me and putting words in my mouth. I never once said that I want the missions to be made easier. Did you forget that you asked me what money issues new players have? I simply explained why it is not an easy time, and that it is a grind to be able to afford an adequate ship for level 4's if you are limited on skills.

 

3 mil is a minimum to be able to do missions which are easy. Do these guides say to use rigs ?

I never said it was fact they would be moved. In fact I said it was my opinion, my opinion is never given as fact from me.

You have asked for the game to made easier with all the extra skill training which is not needed. Money issues are a whole other thing and all I can say to that is that there is no money issue for new players. If you can't make money it's because you are losing money somewhere, probably by putting all your money into to ships you cant fly well enough yet  ?

Every fitting list you find for Ravens or Domis say to use rigs. Even the ones on the official website.

wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Raven_(Fitting)

wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Dominix_(Fitting)

With your last paragraph, your bringing up something we discussed in a completely different topic and subject, and using it out of context. The topic your mentioning was a discussion about the current "new player experience" versus the new one in the coming expansion. Faster skill training until 1.6 mill sp is something CCP IS implementing. So if you have a problem with the game being "made easier", your problem is with them. All I think should be done differently in that is they should not remove the 2-3 level 4 and 5 skills from the starting templates because that will make the players first couple weeks less enjoyable - that is all. Obviously, CCP does not think that being able to get to a measly 1.6 mill faster is "making the game easier".

You even said it yourself, "Money issues are a whole other thing", so I dont know why you would bring that subject up here where it is completely out of context. We were discussing money issues in this topic - look up a few posts and youll see yourself questioning me about what money issues new players have, because you did not believe there was a grind, so I gave you examples.

With that said, there is no way for a "new player" to know the difficulty of a level 4 mission without trying it. Once a player realizes they can pop on a full fitting that CCP themselves recommends for level 4's, of course they are going to think they are skilled enough for it. Even if they are further then the recommended skills, it will still be a learning curve, and they will still lose a few ships in the process.

Which is where the grind I was talking about is. It's approx 150mill+ to afford those ships in the first place, which is a grind, on top of the standing grind which is even harder for many people who dont even know the social skills exist. Plus they are going to have to take risks and likely lose ships in the process before they know they can handle all the level 4 missions - which is typically 50mill+ a pop due to rigs - even more depending on which ship you use.

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Dude, to get 3mill SP takes a couple months anyway. That's not immediately.

It's not even all my words either - the advice that Caldari or Gallente players are set for lvl 4's at 3mill SP are all over the official Eve forums, and the noob guides.

The agents wont be moved to low-sec either. They are increasing low sec rewards, not reducing the rewards from anywhere.

The only changes they stated that may happen to lvl 4 missions is they may add the improved AI to them at sometime, in which case they will be increasing rewards due to the difficulty.

I havent asked for the game to be made easier either. I simply brought up money issues for new players. I dont know why you go from us having a somewhat-friendly discussion, to this post where you are being condenscending and attempting to talk down to me and putting words in my mouth. I never once said that I want the missions to be made easier. Did you forget that you asked me what money issues new players have? I simply explained why it is not an easy time, and that it is a grind to be able to afford an adequate ship for level 4's if you are limited on skills.

 

3 mil is a minimum to be able to do missions which are easy. Do these guides say to use rigs ?

I never said it was fact they would be moved. In fact I said it was my opinion, my opinion is never given as fact from me.

You have asked for the game to made easier with all the extra skill training which is not needed. Money issues are a whole other thing and all I can say to that is that there is no money issue for new players. If you can't make money it's because you are losing money somewhere, probably by putting all your money into to ships you cant fly well enough yet  ?

 

Every fitting list you find for Ravens or Domis say to use rigs. Even the ones on the official website.

wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Raven_(Fitting)

wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Dominix_(Fitting)

With your last paragraph, your bringing up something we discussed in a completely different topic and subject, and using it out of context. The topic your mentioning was a discussion about the current "new player experience" versus the new one in the coming expansion. Faster skill training until 1.6 mill sp is something CCP IS implementing. So if you have a problem with the game being "made easier", your problem is with them. All I think should be done differently in that is they should not remove the 2-3 level 4 and 5 skills from the starting templates because that will make the players first couple weeks less enjoyable - that is all. Obviously, CCP does not think that being able to get to a measly 1.6 mill faster is "making the game easier".

You even said it yourself, "Money issues are a whole other thing", so I dont know why you would bring that subject up here where it is completely out of context. We were discussing money issues in this topic - look up a few posts and youll see yourself questioning me about what money issues new players have, because you did not believe there was a grind, so I gave you examples.

With that said, there is no way for a "new player" to know the difficulty of a level 4 mission without trying it. Once a player realizes they can pop on a full fitting that CCP themselves recommends for level 4's, of course they are going to think they are skilled enough for it. Even if they are further then the recommended skills, it will still be a learning curve, and they will still lose a few ships in the process.

Which is where the grind I was talking about is. It's approx 150mill+ to afford those ships in the first place, which is a grind, on top of the standing grind which is even harder for many people who dont even know the social skills exist. Plus they are going to have to take risks and likely lose ships in the process before they know they can handle all the level 4 missions - which is typically 50mill+ a pop due to rigs - even more depending on which ship you use.

Every game has a grind.

Eve happens to have a Isk grind which isnt bad after a month or two and it has a standing grind which you can either totally avoid or fleet with friends and get through standing faster.

The standing needed for a jump clone is a crappy grind imo, since I hate having to do mission for any other reason but to make isk.

Also I don't think CCP is making anything easier by giving new players 100% learning until 1.6 million. these new players have 0 learning skills and only 50k Sp. sure they can specialize sooner but its still just as hard to figure out what the hell you actually need to train.

Also imo if your flying a god damn BS into level fours with only 3 million Sp, I love you. Because you guys are the newbs with shit skills that i love to blow up.

I had some asshole in a Domi with Tech I drone skills using tech I heavy blaster beg for his ship before I blew him up lol.

Personally I wouldnt touch a BS until I was fully training 6 months, New people in eve seem to rush to big ships way too fast. Oh well I could use more newb targets good luck.

At this point whatever, i really don't care anymore. Ill just leave it at this.

What CCP is doing is fine, I have no problems with it and nor do I see it as making things easier. I only said that sped up training on top of current starting sp is a bad idea for the reasons I have posted. I talked about this because it was brought up.

Ok fine the wiki says to use rigs, go ahead and follow the guide because you cant think for yourself. Risk that 60 mil in rigs, you lost them oops too bad, risk vs reward remember. Risk of trying to power level so to speak through the game.

150 mil is not that much to make and you still ignored all the ways I said to make money out of missions.

A player might not know the exact difficulty of a level 4 but they can get a good idea of what to expect with the mission guides. Seriously can the player learn anything on their own ? Or heaven forbid you get a 2nd player to help out. Eve is a somewhat friendly game to solo players but solo players cannot do everything well right away.

And to be truly honest you should have learned how to deal with threats preventing you from warping out when you get in trouble then maybe you really shouldn't be doing level 4s.

We clearly have a difference of opinion on how fast a player should be skilled up and has enough cash to do level 4 missions the way that you want to. In all seriousness level 4s are way to lucrative for the low risk they have. It is easy for 2 people working together to make a bil between them in a week. A friend and I did it casually in a less than optimal setup.

Thank you Z3R01 for agreeing that 3mil sp on a bs even with rigs is too low for level 4s. I don't really care what the guides say. Some of the easier sure but not the hatrder ones. Even high sp players have to warp of missions sometimes unless they are flying something like a faction fitted raven

I have a hate/love relationship with EvE.

Graphics: they're fine and fit-to-purpose. I use the classic client after having been burnt by the premium graphics one. I was one of those poor suckers who lost their boot.ini. After I fixed that, I did manage to get premium graphics running but found it hard to run two accounts at the same time on the same computer.

Sounds: fine.

UI: fine. Annoying that there is still some lag with simple operations like moving stuff from one container to another (like a jetcan into my cargo hold). Annoying that the market can still lag.

Gameplay: I love the character progression in EvE. The way the skills are set up is one of the best things about the game. I love how you can customise your character to whatever you want. Yes, you do have to follow set paths if you want to be a mission runner for example, but  you can tweek your skills after a certain point to give your character other things to do. You can be a mission runner but also a fleet tackler, for example, or someone who gathers intel. What I don't like is how incredibly boring a lot of EvE's gameplay is. I don't mind travelling, though I find that I end up reading while I am actively warping to 0 (I never use autopilot... ever). While it may seem bad that I can read and travel at the same time, or read and mine or whatever... EvE is an appealing game to play when you still want to progress a character in a game but have other stuff to do. The downside is that it doesn't make EvE that particularly engaging or adrenaline-pumping most of the time. Sure, PvP will get adrenaline going since you can lose your ship, pod and lots of other stuff, but EvE isn't all about PvP combat. If I didn't have corpmates to talk to, books to read, etc., EvE would be extremely boring. Operations are fun, but even then there is a hell of a lot of waiting around to do. This game is definitely not ever going to satisfy any need for immediate action. So people will have to find that experience else-where. For short-term and medium-term action, EvE is not it, but for long-term action it is. That means spending a lot of game-time docked with many windows open planning things out.

Community: this is the bit I hate the most overall. I have corpmates I've known for several years in EvE. We've helped each other over the years... there are quite a few good and nice people in EvE. But from my experience there are a very large amount of buttholes too. I'm not talking about scammers and griefers: I can deal with both of those (scammers are usually polite and there hasn't been a griefer yet I've haven't outsmarted). I'm talking about those who feel they can cop an attitude: smacktalkers and people who constantly tell others that the way THEY play the game is the right way. The former, I usually block if they keep at it, whether I'm the target of the smacktalk or not. After so many years of being on the internet, I have very little patience anymore of people using their anonymity to insult and attack others. But with the latter, quite often they are my own corpmates or alliancemates. I am so utterly sick of people giving me 'advice' I don't want or need. I don't know if they do it thinking that a woman can't pilot a ship in EvE without being babied or what... but quite often the guys doing it have a fraction of the gametime I have.

Overall, there is something about EvE that keeps me coming back but it's not a game I can play just on its own. I need to have a more 'cookie cutter' MMO to keep me entertained. EvE is therefore a luxury I indulge in when I feel that urge. Needless to say, I've taken many breaks.

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

At this point whatever, i really don't care anymore. Ill just leave it at this.

What CCP is doing is fine, I have no problems with it and nor do I see it as making things easier. I only said that sped up training on top of current starting sp is a bad idea for the reasons I have posted. I talked about this because it was brought up.

Ok fine the wiki says to use rigs, go ahead and follow the guide because you cant think for yourself. Risk that 60 mil in rigs, you lost them oops too bad, risk vs reward remember. Risk of trying to power level so to speak through the game.

150 mil is not that much to make and you still ignored all the ways I said to make money out of missions.

A player might not know the exact difficulty of a level 4 but they can get a good idea of what to expect with the mission guides. Seriously can the player learn anything on their own ? Or heaven forbid you get a 2nd player to help out. Eve is a somewhat friendly game to solo players but solo players cannot do everything well right away.

And to be truly honest you should have learned how to deal with threats preventing you from warping out when you get in trouble then maybe you really shouldn't be doing level 4s.

We clearly have a difference of opinion on how fast a player should be skilled up and has enough cash to do level 4 missions the way that you want to. In all seriousness level 4s are way to lucrative for the low risk they have. It is easy for 2 people working together to make a bil between them in a week. A friend and I did it casually in a less than optimal setup.

Thank you Z3R01 for agreeing that 3mil sp on a bs even with rigs is too low for level 4s. I don't really care what the guides say. Some of the easier sure but not the hatrder ones. Even high sp players have to warp of missions sometimes unless they are flying something like a faction fitted raven

Dude, I told you already, I have 3 characters that are more then skilled enough for missions. Why are you still trying to talk down to me like I am having trouble?

You claim "you only talked about the SP because it was brought up", but you were the one who brought it up - you contradict yourself because you just want a reason to keep flaming.

"Seriously can a player learn anything on their own?" Learning it on their own is exactly what I mentioned players have to do in my post. Again, just trying to be condescending.

You try to talk like people are out of their mind to mission with Rigs, when if you look at BattleClinic - the most popular site for Eve fittings - every single BS mission fit has rigs in them. Considering that, what information do you think 90% of the players out there are going to get when they first get a BS?

I didnt ignore you about how to make money in level 3's, you ignored the fact that I told you doing everything you listed only results in 5mill per mission (excluding LP reward).

About threats that keep you from warping - its easy to say you know how to deal with them when your experienced, but if you are a new player you are going to be using eve-survival.org to try to gauge how hard a mission is. It's not the new players fault when it tells them kill a Gisti Hijacker to trigger the next spawn, so they avoid the Hijacker and kill the Defilers - and due to wrong information trigger a 2nd spawn which is too much to tank and cant escape due to scramblers.

You shouldnt have even asked what kind of grind new players have if you were going to talk down to them for following new player guides and official information from the Eve wiki which they have stated is part of the new player experience for the expansion. You asked what grind noobs have, I told you, and now your trying to turn it around and trash talk? Find someone else to flame becuase your just looking like a condescending jerk. I havent even used any Eve guides at all in years since I was a new player. Your stooping down to not only being condescending to me, but also insulting everyone who uses guides that CCP has on their official site which is focused on those new players?

Originally posted by TheGrue

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online

Nuff said.

You may now begin with the "omfg troll!!!eleventyones" 

I hope you don't seriously take Yahtzee's reviews to heart

He hates on every game he "reviews," that's his shtick. It's like snarky satire - I thought everyone knew this by now. He's payed to completely rip popular games apart / play devil's advocate - or did you just honestly think he hates every single AAA game?

Originally posted by anakinsella

Originally posted by TheGrue

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online

Nuff said.

You may now begin with the "omfg troll!!!eleventyones" 

 

I hope you don't seriously take Yahtzee's reviews to heart

He hates on every game he "reviews," that's his shtick. It's like snarky satire - I thought everyone knew this by now. He's payed to completely rip popular games apart / play devil's advocate - or did you just honestly think he hates every single AAA game?

The trolls will believe anything if it could be used as fuel for the fire.

When they link that dude I know they have virtually nothing left. Eve is a great game and the trolls are running out of shit to talk about.

Eve is the only mmo that requires you to use your brains, some people play mmos so that they dont have to use theirs.

Do you have avatars in which to get outside of your ship and walk around with now?  When I tried out the game, that was my biggest issue with it.  I didn't want to "be" a spaceship.

Try back just before christmas time, that's when the Ambulation expansion is scheduled to launch.

I am curious though as to what exactly being able to walk around on stations is going to do for you game wise that isn't already there ? Do you only want to own and run a station bar or shop ?

Don't get me wrong, I think Ambulation will be a great atmospheric tool for the game and look forward to it. It will open up some new career options but it really won't change the game that drastic. Is being an actual 3d character rather than a ship that much of a psychological impact ? Most of the time in any other 3d character mmo you end up looking at your toons ass 99% of the time anyways.

Yea, it makes a big difference...for me anyway, I wasn't speaking for anyone but myself.  It's the same reason why when I have a 3D humanoid avatar, I don't play girl characters.  It's the same reason many don't play games that have 2D graphics, but incredible storylines...aesthetics matter.  And for me, the aesthetic of being a ship just doesn't sit right. 

Someone mentioned being worried about a newbie getting into a corp because they didn't have any experience or very low skill level. There is a corp for you. It is called EVE University.  It is a corp but one dedicated to teaching the hows, whys, and wherefores of the game. Everything from best ways to mine to pvp. Many players have gone thru the classes that Eve Uni holds and then gone on to other corps. Many move on to my corp,  The Graduates, formed by former EVE Uni teachers and students.

I never belonged to Eve Uni, didn't even know about it, but sure wish I had.  Had to learn things the hard way.  Joining Eve Uni and learning from experience players and doing things with players of your skill level AND getting some pvp experience AND THEN joining a 0.0 corp, it is just the best way to go I believe.

EVE isn't for everyone but everyone should at least give it a fair trial.

Originally posted by DKKOberon

Someone mentioned being worried about a newbie getting into a corp because they didn't have any experience or very low skill level. There is a corp for you. It is called EVE University.  It is a corp but one dedicated to teaching the hows, whys, and wherefores of the game. Everything from best ways to mine to pvp. Many players have gone thru the classes that Eve Uni holds and then gone on to other corps. Many move on to my corp,  The Graduates, formed by former EVE Uni teachers and students.

I never belonged to Eve Uni, didn't even know about it, but sure wish I had.  Had to learn things the hard way.  Joining Eve Uni and learning from experience players and doing things with players of your skill level AND getting some pvp experience AND THEN joining a 0.0 corp, it is just the best way to go I believe.

EVE isn't for everyone but everyone should at least give it a fair trial.

 

hey dkkoberon im in EVE uni and its been the best decission i have made in eve since i started playing in late 07, this corp is the best place to be if you feel lost in the vastness of the eve universe.

BTW looking to join the graduates at some point :P

Thought i would add my 2 cents,

Ive played almost every MMO since  UO. And right now im playing EVE and im loving it and wish i started earlier!

Its as complicated as you want to make it - its a game you learn and keep learning, there are so many paths to take and the choice is yours.

I will add though i tried it twice 1 year apart then 7 months later gave it another crack and worked it all out!