Aye GrayGhost79, even if I sound a bit negative (and used the "half baked" thing) I am going to give Darkfall a fair chance.

I have been following the Leaks and I have liked the pace of Aventurine fixing/changing some things as testers asked and gave feedback. So I will stick with it a few months to see at what pace they improve/fix/polish it.

To tell the truth I think that if they just had skipped that "family/proffesional beta" thing 6 month ago and started a Closed Beta, like the actual one (with invites to followers), the game would be miles ahead of what it is now. 5000 followers will always be faster and more accurate (with numbers, charts and complex calculations) pointing design flaws (Like for ex. Spell damege) and giving good solutions to them, than a bunch of profesional testers that are there for the the monthly $ and not looking for years of playing (and enjoying) the game they are Beta testing.

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Shoju

Originally posted by Darkstar111      

 The Best Darkfall could hope for is 20% of Wows playerbase

Darkfall will be lucky to get 1% of the number of subscribers that WoW has.  And even  that is being very generous.  I would be very surprised if after the 3 month period the number of paid subscriptions numbers any more than in the tens of thousands.  And if is the case, then you can kiss any chance of US servers goodbye.

Although, I am still expecting Aventurine to drop the bomb and tell everyone that they are all going ot be playing on EU localised servers.

 

Do u like surprises ?

 

Darkfall is a solid game its stable and it includes features many many players have been asking for for years.

Dont buy into the haters propaganda, nobody will care about a few points missing of an outdated list when Darkfall has all the major and key features ppl wanted securely in place.

 

If u do not believe that a good, solid, pvp-centric MMO with full loot has a chance in this market, then ok, that is ur opinion.

But if u believe that Darkfall has some inherent flaw that will somehow turn its own niche against itself then u are completly off base.

 

Darkfall does what its set out to do, and those that like this will play it.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

Very very few people think open FFA PvP is the main MMO attraction. THe mainstream atm is casual quest driven PvE, WoW is living proof of that.

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Shoju

Originally posted by Darkstar111      

 The Best Darkfall could hope for is 20% of Wows playerbase

Darkfall will be lucky to get 1% of the number of subscribers that WoW has.  And even  that is being very generous.  I would be very surprised if after the 3 month period the number of paid subscriptions numbers any more than in the tens of thousands.  And if is the case, then you can kiss any chance of US servers goodbye.

Although, I am still expecting Aventurine to drop the bomb and tell everyone that they are all going ot be playing on EU localised servers.

 

Do u like surprises ?

 

Darkfall is a solid game its stable and it includes features many many players have been asking for for years.

Dont buy into the haters propaganda, nobody will care about a few points missing of an outdated list when Darkfall has all the major and key features ppl wanted securely in place.

 

If u do not believe that a good, solid, pvp-centric MMO with full loot has a chance in this market, then ok, that is ur opinion.

But if u believe that Darkfall has some inherent flaw that will somehow turn its own niche against itself then u are completly off base.

 

Darkfall does what its set out to do, and those that like this will play it.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

Very very few people think open FFA PvP is the main MMO attraction. THe mainstream atm is casual quest driven PvE, WoW is living proof of that.

I think there is a differnce between MMO-gamers and mainstream audience.

An MMO-gamer would be a person who has played other MMOs before world of warcraft, while there are plenty of ppl whose only MMO is wow.

The mainstreams has it, they are a much larger audience them MMO-gamers, or even just gamers, after all there is a reason why Wii-fit was the most sold game of 2008.

But among the gamers, and specifically among the MMO-gamers there is a large following for a more serious consequential pvp MMO.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by BaconJA89

 

  All I am saying is that, from a historical perspectives, it seems as though old school gamers may finally have a medium through which to challenge WoW, which has dominated the genre for so many years. 

-John

Yes allof what fifty So called Old School gamers are rising up to challenge Twelve Million WoW players that consists of the biggest most diverse demopgraphic in any gaming genre....ever.

Put the crack pipe down Grandpa. 

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Maelkor

I have been playing MMO's since the time they were free MUD's on college terminals as text. I have 0 interest in darkfall and will never play it myself. Not because i believe the game to be a crappy game but that the game features themselves hold no interest to me. I dont think this game will revolutionise anything or change anything. At  most it will garner a few hundred k subs do moderately well and provide another niche for one segment of the MMO market to have fun in. Nothing wrong with a game if it accomplishes that.

 

 

I disagree, when ultima online failed at controlling its own playerbase and was forced to cop out with a fellucca/trammel solution the rest of the development community took this as a sign that Free for all pvp does not, and cannot work in MMOs.

Furthermore they assumed that people would not want it.

--snip--

I'm sorry, Ultima Online did not fail at controlling its playerbase.The playerbase failed to be able to control(police)  themselves like the developers have said time and again. Hence the "Social Experiment" moniker.

When Trammel was introduced, the people that didn't care for the pvp/pk environment left Felucca and never came back. Why should they? They didn't care for that "rush" of having to look over their shoulder constantly. They now had the game that they wanted to play. We now had "Carebears".

"But Trammel ruined the game!!!"

This has been screamed for many years now, and to be honest, is nonsense. Trammel left Felucca to the people that wanted to PvP, with very few changes(lanscape mostly). Sure, Factions never really panned out, but there was still guild warfare. But yet, the Felucca folks weren't happy. Hmmm, why is that? It's exacly the same game that it was before the split. Why were they not happy?

The years go by, UO has tried every carrot-on-a-stick approach to get more people in Feluuca, and guess what happened? Nothing has worked. There has to be something else. Wonder what it is?

Felucca has degenerated to a few Champion Spawn contolling guilds on each shard, and the few diehard pvp folks hanging around the Yew moongate looking for someone to flag/flag on. Other than that, nothing. Why?

Then you have Seige Perilous shard. FFA, full loot, do as you please shard with a completely different ruleset. It's the "hardcore" shard of UO. Guess what? It probably has more players on it than most of the regular shards. In other words, it's dead. Again, why is this?

I think all the questions above can be answered simply with a couple of  words. Care to take a guess?

I'm sorry, but I realy can't see Darkfall as anything more than a 3D Seige Perilous, as the game is now.

If that is what AV has worked on all these years for, then great. Go Go Darkfall!!

Personally, I doubt that it is.

Originally posted by Respit

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Maelkor

I have been playing MMO's since the time they were free MUD's on college terminals as text. I have 0 interest in darkfall and will never play it myself. Not because i believe the game to be a crappy game but that the game features themselves hold no interest to me. I dont think this game will revolutionise anything or change anything. At  most it will garner a few hundred k subs do moderately well and provide another niche for one segment of the MMO market to have fun in. Nothing wrong with a game if it accomplishes that.

 

 

I disagree, when ultima online failed at controlling its own playerbase and was forced to cop out with a fellucca/trammel solution the rest of the development community took this as a sign that Free for all pvp does not, and cannot work in MMOs.

Furthermore they assumed that people would not want it.

--snip--

I'm sorry, Ultima Online did not fail at controlling its playerbase.The playerbase failed to be able to control(police)  themselves like the developers have said time and again. Hence the "Social Experiment" moniker.

 

When Trammel was introduced, the people that didn't care for the pvp/pk environment left Felucca and never came back. Why should they? They didn't care for that "rush" of having to look over their shoulder constantly. They now had the game that they wanted to play. We now had "Carebears".

 

"But Trammel ruined the game!!!"

This has been screamed for many years now, and to be honest, is nonsense. Trammel left Felucca to the people that wanted to PvP, with very few changes(lanscape mostly). Sure, Factions never really panned out, but there was still guild warfare. But yet, the Felucca folks weren't happy. Hmmm, why is that? It's exacly the same game that it was before the split. Why were they not happy?

 

The years go by, UO has tried every carrot-on-a-stick approach to get more people in Feluuca, and guess what happened? Nothing has worked. There has to be something else. Wonder what it is?

 

Felucca has degenerated to a few Champion Spawn contolling guilds on each shard, and the few diehard pvp folks hanging around the Yew moongate looking for someone to flag/flag on. Other than that, nothing. Why?

Then you have Seige Perilous shard. FFA, full loot, do as you please shard with a completely different ruleset. It's the "hardcore" shard of UO. Guess what? It probably has more players on it than most of the regular shards. In other words, it's dead. Again, why is this?

 

I think all the questions above can be answered simply with one word. Care to take a guess?

 

I'm sorry, but I realy can't see Darkfall as anything more than a 3D Seige Perilous, as the game is now.

 

If that is what AV has worked on all these years for, then great. Go Go Darkfall!!

Personally, I doubt that it is.

 

Aye,

Most people tend to forget that the split was due to player demand. Players got tired of the whole gank fest and pvp exploiting (false flagging in others spells as an example). EA's solution was to give both bases each a world to play in (Fel for the pvp crowd, Tram for the rest).

Thus came UO: Renaissance.

Felucca ended up becoming a ghost town while Trammel flourished. Trammel didnt ruin the game as most PvP'ers would want you to believe. What ruined the game for them is they didnt have people to gank. Ganking each other was fun for a while but just wasnt the same.

My favorite claim has to be that the only reason people went to Trammel and didnt stay in Felucca was due to housing space...

So let me get this straight.

Darkstar, you're the one that dictates who's a gamer and who's not? And which are the "worthy" games? Give me a break.

If people play Wii fit or anything, it's none of your business really. It's their money, their choice.

Even if most of us dislike WoW it is still a game and the only genre it can be classified is MMORPG, now for sub genre and the likes, we can clearly separate WoW's aspects compared to Darkfall's in two very different categories.

The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments, with EQ and WoW. The latter game brought a huge number of people to the genre, and because of it's financial success most developers try to mimic it's formula (nothing new), but that's for another thread.

My point is, this kind of "real gamers" babble won't get the discussion anywhere, really.

Originally posted by Routver

So let me get this straight.

Darkstar, you're the one that dictates who's a gamer and who's not? And which are the "worthy" games? Give me a break.

If people play Wii fit or anything, it's none of your business really. It's their money, their choice.

Even if most of us dislike WoW it is still a game and the only genre it can be classified is MMORPG, now for sub genre and the likes, we can clearly separate WoW's aspects compared to Darkfall's in two very different categories.

The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments, with EQ and WoW. The latter game brought a huge number of people to the genre, and because of it's financial success most developers try to mimic it's formula (nothing new), but that's for another thread.

My point is, this kind of "real gamers" babble won't get the discussion anywhere, really.

Really? then how do u explain that the biggest wow servers are the PVP ones not the PVE ones?

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Routver

So let me get this straight.

Darkstar, you're the one that dictates who's a gamer and who's not? And which are the "worthy" games? Give me a break.

If people play Wii fit or anything, it's none of your business really. It's their money, their choice.

Even if most of us dislike WoW it is still a game and the only genre it can be classified is MMORPG, now for sub genre and the likes, we can clearly separate WoW's aspects compared to Darkfall's in two very different categories.

The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments, with EQ and WoW. The latter game brought a huge number of people to the genre, and because of it's financial success most developers try to mimic it's formula (nothing new), but that's for another thread.

My point is, this kind of "real gamers" babble won't get the discussion anywhere, really.

 

Really? then how do u explain that the biggest wow servers are the PVP ones not the PVE ones?

 

-Darkstar

 

 

Same thing with AoC. More on the PvP than the PvE. Least thats how it was for a good while, may have changed but I doubt it.

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Routver

So let me get this straight.

Darkstar, you're the one that dictates who's a gamer and who's not? And which are the "worthy" games? Give me a break.

If people play Wii fit or anything, it's none of your business really. It's their money, their choice.

Even if most of us dislike WoW it is still a game and the only genre it can be classified is MMORPG, now for sub genre and the likes, we can clearly separate WoW's aspects compared to Darkfall's in two very different categories.

The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments, with EQ and WoW. The latter game brought a huge number of people to the genre, and because of it's financial success most developers try to mimic it's formula (nothing new), but that's for another thread.

My point is, this kind of "real gamers" babble won't get the discussion anywhere, really.

 

Really? then how do u explain that the biggest wow servers are the PVP ones not the PVE ones?

 

-Darkstar

 

 

By the fact there still is no risk for playing on those servers? You don't lose anything when a player kills you in WoW.

Originally posted by Respit

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Maelkor

I have been playing MMO's since the time they were free MUD's on college terminals as text. I have 0 interest in darkfall and will never play it myself. Not because i believe the game to be a crappy game but that the game features themselves hold no interest to me. I dont think this game will revolutionise anything or change anything. At  most it will garner a few hundred k subs do moderately well and provide another niche for one segment of the MMO market to have fun in. Nothing wrong with a game if it accomplishes that.

 

 

I disagree, when ultima online failed at controlling its own playerbase and was forced to cop out with a fellucca/trammel solution the rest of the development community took this as a sign that Free for all pvp does not, and cannot work in MMOs.

Furthermore they assumed that people would not want it.

--snip--

I'm sorry, Ultima Online did not fail at controlling its playerbase.The playerbase failed to be able to control(police)  themselves like the developers have said time and again. Hence the "Social Experiment" moniker.

 

Really? Thats what u jump at? Semantics ?

U dont see that the ultimate responsebility lies in the developers?

And since they had to rearrange such a massive feature of the game with the renesciance expansion it shows that the original feature was a failure.

Playerbase policing itself is only a factor to the degree the game designers allow.

As for the rest of ur post, I get that u dont agree that a pvp-centric MMO with ffa and full loot is a good idea, well Darkfall is here to try to prove u wrong.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by todeswulf

Originally posted by BaconJA89

 

  All I am saying is that, from a historical perspectives, it seems as though old school gamers may finally have a medium through which to challenge WoW, which has dominated the genre for so many years. 

-John

 

Yes allof what fifty So called Old School gamers are rising up to challenge Twelve Million WoW players that consists of the biggest most diverse demopgraphic in any gaming genre....ever.

 

Put the crack pipe down Grandpa. 

 

I would really like to see a chart of this subscription demographics between active players/inactives players and gold sellers. When AOL gave out their 20 bucks deal for unlimited internet access  the entire USA join not that they all could log in at the same time nor they could stay long enough per call as it is said unlimited access per month and not per call.  I played wow for awhile most of the time I solo and when I group I wished I hadn't been in it and seeing how no one in group new what they were doing as well as all thought they were hot and uber with their elite armor yet no had no idea of group interaction. Sometimes I felt like a hired assasin go kill this one kill this many... The quest felt like random things to do. Oh an the continous and repeticious asking to pvp from people that new that they were gonna win. I really don't want to play a copy of EQ but I would like to find a game that the play style is a like where people burn time to learn their play style not go kill or do x quest and be 80 in 2 weeks.

Favorite memories is to go on PoKnowledge and see full of poeple selling kei,virtue or doing a massive buff spell.. now a days PoK is just another empty zone as eq has way too many xpansions..

I have seen many post like this wow has millions of subscribers .. my question is how many are actually active and not goldspammers as every time I check my email is wow gold spammers I get.

The problem is this.. Most "old school" gamers I know are now adults. They don't have time to spend all day in an imaginary world filled with all their friends. They do enjoy it, as do I, so they still need their fix. Said gamers will not get their fix in games that take the "old school" approach. Not saying that this isn't needed in the genre, but quite frankly it's always going to be a niche game with such time commitments in place.

I myself desire a game that offers more then WoW. I miss the old days in FFXI when it took actual time to get where I was going. The limitations of travel, amongst other things, offered up more social elements to gameplay. The instant gratification is what feels so different about games like WoW. It does detract from the community as well. Players no longer need to rely on each other for so many things. This in itself is why the game has been so successful (the blizzard brand name certainly helps too). This, in essence "ruins" the genre in the eyes of the player nostalgic for something more "pure". Unfortunately, it is needed... just because I'm grown up and don't have the time to commit to these games like I did then doesn't mean I don't want to play too :P

That being said, I know plenty of "old school" gamers who play WoW. Old EQ/FFXI/DAoC vets who miss their old games, but have jobs/wives/kids/bills that require attention. They don't always enjoy it, I often hear players talking about the "old days" in EQ fondly on vent, but they are still here playing WoW. They do it because they found other people that feel the way do and like to play the way they play. They play together and enjoy each others company. And they don't have to commit every minute of their free time to do so.

New school, old school, it's all relative to your point of view. The revolution you are waiting for may not be the one you expect. Just don't be disappointed if things dont turn out like you thought they would :)

PvP servers in WoW are for people bored with scripted battles and who want to one hit kill lowbies, I guess.

As was said already by other people in here, there's no risk involved. Unless you count 30 seconds running back to your corpse as a risk.

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Respit

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Maelkor

I have been playing MMO's since the time they were free MUD's on college terminals as text. I have 0 interest in darkfall and will never play it myself. Not because i believe the game to be a crappy game but that the game features themselves hold no interest to me. I dont think this game will revolutionise anything or change anything. At  most it will garner a few hundred k subs do moderately well and provide another niche for one segment of the MMO market to have fun in. Nothing wrong with a game if it accomplishes that.

 

 

I disagree, when ultima online failed at controlling its own playerbase and was forced to cop out with a fellucca/trammel solution the rest of the development community took this as a sign that Free for all pvp does not, and cannot work in MMOs.

Furthermore they assumed that people would not want it.

--snip--

I'm sorry, Ultima Online did not fail at controlling its playerbase.The playerbase failed to be able to control(police)  themselves like the developers have said time and again. Hence the "Social Experiment" moniker.

 

 

Really? Thats what u jump at? Semantics ?

Semantics? You're reaching there.

U dont see that the ultimate responsebility lies in the developers?

Pardon me, but I thought we were discussing a "sandbox" environment. My bad...

And since they had to rearrange such a massive feature of the game with the renesciance expansion it shows that the original feature was a failure.

Yes. Original developers have stated so. Thus, the "Failed Social Experiment".

 

Playerbase policing itself is only a factor to the degree the game designers allow.

Well, what is more "sandbox" than setting up the basics (factions, alliances, races) and letting the populace loose? Sounds like full player policing to me. As far as I know, that model hasn't worked yet.

Good Lord, you guys are screaming bloody murder because of a few Guard Towers, it would be total chaos if the developers tried to do anything else to "police" the "sandbox".

 

 

As for the rest of ur post, I get that u dont agree that a pvp-centric MMO with ffa and full loot is a good idea, well Darkfall is here to try to prove u wrong.

Nope, you gathered the wrong thing, sorry. Apparently you missed what I was driving at.

I truly believe that that type of game can exist.

Unfortuantely, in it's current state, Darkfall is not that game.

 

-Darkstar

 Mine,,,

You failed to address the question I put forth as to why the PvP populace of UO was/are still unhappy since the UO:R split.

There was/is only one difference.

Take a guess. You seem intelligent enough.

Originally posted by jacobuj

The problem is this.. Most "old school" gamers I know are now adults. They don't have time to spend all day in an imaginary world filled with all their friends. They do enjoy it, as do I, so they still need their fix. Said gamers will not get their fix in games that take the "old school" approach. Not saying that this isn't needed in the genre, but quite frankly it's always going to be a niche game with such time commitments in place.

I myself desire a game that offers more then WoW. I miss the old days in FFXI when it took actual time to get where I was going. The limitations of travel, amongst other things, offered up more social elements to gameplay. The instant gratification is what feels so different about games like WoW. It does detract from the community as well. Players no longer need to rely on each other for so many things. This in itself is why the game has been so successful (the blizzard brand name certainly helps too). This, in essence "ruins" the genre in the eyes of the player nostalgic for something more "pure". Unfortunately, it is needed... just because I'm grown up and don't have the time to commit to these games like I did then doesn't mean I don't want to play too :P

That being said, I know plenty of "old school" gamers who play WoW. Old EQ/FFXI/DAoC vets who miss their old games, but have jobs/wives/kids/bills that require attention. They don't always enjoy it, I often hear players talking about the "old days" in EQ fondly on vent, but they are still here playing WoW. They do it because they found other people that feel the way do and like to play the way they play. They play together and enjoy each others company. And they don't have to commit every minute of their free time to do so.

New school, old school, it's all relative to your point of view. The revolution you are waiting for may not be the one you expect. Just don't be disappointed if things dont turn out like you thought they would :)

So very true.

I love seeing posts where they talk about how "old-school" Darkfall is and how great it will be to play an "old-school" game again. The thing is, the community isn't old-school anymore...they are just old. (I am referring to me here too). I started playing MMO's in my early 20s. Now I am in my early 30s. Like many who cut their teeth on UO and EQ, we have moved on from 10-14 hour marathon gaming sessions to shorter play periods while having spouse-agro, kid-agro, pet-agro and any of the other 1 million things that might keep us from playing.

In other words, many who are "old-school" and would love a game like Darkfall simply will not have the time for it anymore. This is why MMO's have gotten easier. Its not because they have dumbed them down, or anything like that, it is because their market has changed. If EQ, as it was in the early 2000s, launched today, it would be a miserbale failure. Sure, there are people out there who want an old school, harder game, but the big question is this: Is it enough of a population to sustain a MMO for the long-term financially?

This is the big question for Darkfall. Will their be enough subs to keep the game going? And I do not mean at launch, or in 3 months but in the yeara down the road? Perosnally, I am afraid that there will not be. I think the gaming population has changed. HAD Darkfall launched in 2003 or so, then sure.  But today, games are easier sure, but in reality, difficulty in an MMO is all about time committment. Will people have enough time to committ to Darkfall? Will it be enjoyable? How will people react to getting ganked and related behaviors?

And the BIGGEST issue of all is this: If there are not enough subs around 6-12 months down the road, and AV needs money, then what happens? They either will close the game or....guess what......make the game easier so it will appeal to more subscribers. However, this in turn will alienate the hardcore fans.

And ultimately this is why I am waiting until the US release of Darkfall (and by then, we will know how good the game really is). I firmly believe Darkfall will have a major identity crisis in the 6-12 month period after release. There will not be enough CONTINUAL subscribers (who pay month to month) and AV will need to do something to make the game appeal to more people and to draw in more players and revenue. So they will either change a lot of the hardcore PVP rules or make a PVE server or something. This, of course, will cause massive drama and a lot of issues (and one of the reasons I have advocated for a PVE server from the beginning - it allows AV to maximize their potential subscription base without alienating their hardcore pvp'ers) but everyone assures me that there will be enough hardcore PVP'es around that there is no need to worry. However, I counter with sub numbers in hardcore games right now and servers with FFA rulesets currently (they tend to be low populated). Ultimately, we will see but if I was a small indie dev company like AV, I would do everything in my power to make the game appeal to as many people as possible to insure your financial security down the road. I guess only time will tell.

Originally posted by safwd

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

...................

Yeh from what I saw the UI is HORRIBLE and the PVP looked really crap.  Badly animated, it was slow and boring and had poor effects and half the time they were running away from eachother.


Sure people don't like the cookie cutterness of WoW but I bet you after launch people will soon realise what are the best things to fight with and just use them over and over and then that game will be cookie cutter too. One guy always said fights come down to just how many pots or whatever you have....... sounds liek the boring fights of Jedi with how many Holocrons they have.

Darkfall is not the sandbox game we've been waiting for.

Please don't buy the game until it has released and the final word is on it.

I cant argue with most of what you said.
 

But you did say WoW is a non-linear world and i just have to LOL all over that one.
I dont think i ever heard the term Linear World in MMOs until WoW came out. WoW invented linear in MMOs. And also quest grinding for that matter.

Wow, uhm....no....just no.  People act like WoW was the first modern MMO (meaning MMO, in the form that they now predominantly exist).  WoW didn't invent "linear" gameplay, nor did it invent "quest grinding."  U.O. had plenty of quests (although it had much MORE than JUST quests) and EQ (the ORIGINAL, not EQ2) came LONG before WoW and definitely had MANY of the things WoW gets "blamed" for already in place, including a hugely addicted "raider" populace, LOADS of "quest grinding" (why do you think it was called EVER QUEST), and the same "gear grind" we see today as well. 

What WoW DID that seems to have pissed so many people OFF is to take all of those things, add a sense of whimsy, make it more light-hearted, take itself less SERIOUSLY, add hand rendered graphics to the CGI and make it more "cartoony" and not try to be so serious, attempting to imitate real life, and BLAMMO.....a lot of more "traditional" MMO players "hated it."  Oddly enough, it still managed to become the behemoth of today's MMOs and make the term "MMO" a common household word.

Pffft.  Puhleease.  It's popular to hate the biggest thing out there.  And regardless of how much people on the forums here love OR hate WoW, we are a TINY TINY TINY part of the gamer population of the world. 

The same can be said for Darkfall.  Some will love it, some will hate it, and at the end of the day all that matters is that YOU are playing a game that YOU, personally, LIKE.  The company that manages to cater to the "likes" of the most people.....wins the race.  Pure and simple.  And guess what?  People who post on MMORPG.com (or any other gaming forum, for that matter) are a MINORITY, not a majority of gamers.

Originally posted by Waterlily

I hope Darkfall does well and I really should wish all the games that try to bring some challenge into MMO good luck, especially PVP or former UO players.

I'm a pure PVE player though, EQ was never about PVP, so Darkfall will fall short for me. Maybe Tera Online will bring some good PVE back to mmo, I don't know.

Play it before you think you will not like it, you have to play it just for the PvE experience it is excelent. JUst watch the horizon for the PvPers.

Honestly I have focused on PvE and crafting in the Beta and have to say about 2 weks ago I started killing people. Hey I have lost 10 sets of armor I have 20 in the bank, lots of skills melee ranged and magic all progressing nicely. And this with half the features disabled.

The PvE is excellent you should try it, even sneaking towards the ork capital from human lands, was fun in itself just to see the ork starter areas. Just the mission to get there was real fun , chased by mounted orks , orks on foot. Killed Zombies/ Skeleton Warriors, Giant skeleton an a salamander group on the way. And also took on a Hill Giant pure joy.

Hehe and then as I thought I had made it an ork got me with his bloody pike. All in all 2,5 hours of pure fun I cannot remember when this last happened and the world is large enough to do what you want. So for all the nay sayers i cannot help but laugh.

Originally posted by Darkstar111

The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments,

 

Really? then how do u explain that the biggest wow servers are the PVP ones not the PVE ones?

 

-Darkstar

Where's the risk on WoW pvp servers? Oh yeah there virtually is none

You have made the common mistake many people do, equallying pvp to risk when the two are actually different things. And even risk it's self is leveled.

While there is a huge real appetite for pvp there is not such a huge one for risk and higher the risk the less people that are interested

Highest possible risk in an MMO is probably perma death, except for the odd nut job no one would play a game with this

Then you have full loot, here there are more people interested, but they are still a small minority

Then you have time lost risk which is what WoW has and as it has proven it what majority want

It’s basically the whole Risk vs Reward debate that went on for years in UO and simple fact is any game that gets that balance wrong will not do very well at best, flop totally at worst

Respit said something very interesting

"The years go by, UO has tried every carrot-on-a-stick approach to get more people in Felucca, and guess what happened? Nothing has worked. There has to be something else. Wonder what it is?"

What’s so interesting it he is actually wrong, one thing they tried did work at getting tons of people to go to fel, the famous publish 16 just before AoS

They introduced reward with the champ spawns and it’s scrolls and they reduced risk by removing majority (but not all) of item drops on death in dungeons only. Ton’s of people started going to fel, first for the champ spawns but from that launching pad they started expanding outside the dungeons and soon fel was starting to fill up with people (many who had never stepped foot in fel before) so fast that house prices in fel actually started to be higher than ones in Tram, even the broken factions system started to see activitity again

Sadly then Tom Chilton decided to do AoS with it’s itememazation, full insurance and bank balance pvp and it all went to pot again

But one thing P16 did prove, if you ease people gently into risk and entice them with rewards to go even further soon they will take the plunge on their own into even a full loot system. Even WoW followed this system with their land layout from safe lands to contested, but unfortunately because they are an item based game they had to keep the highest achievable risk very low

Until we have a skill based, non item based, pvp MMO that learns the right lessons from P16 we will not have massively successful mmo of the genre and until we have one of those majorty of MMO’s will continue to follow the WoW template
 

To be honest I see Darkfall making less of a dent in WoW playerbase than AoC and WAR has made.