Originally posted by xSh0x

PvE is static, while PvP is dynamic.

 Amazingly enough someone just summed it up in a few words!   the PVE vs PVP debate is always going to be a flashpoint that ignites many players. I find that for me alone, it really depends on my mood. Do I want to pvp or just smack around AI?

Originally posted by Sortran

Originally posted by xSh0x

PvE is static, while PvP is dynamic.

 

 Amazingly enough someone just summed it up in a few words!   the PVE vs PVP debate is always going to be a flashpoint that ignites many players. I find that for me alone, it really depends on my mood. Do I want to pvp or just smack around AI?

Sometimes I find PvP to become stagnant and static, just as much as PvE. When I get into really hard PvE combat situations, I can get an adrenaline rush just as much as if I am being ambushed in PvP.

Personally i prefer PvP a bit over PvE. However when it comes to balancing, PvE is the winner. Overalll it seems close to impossible to make a fun, balanced, and completely functioning PvP-MMORPG. The ultimate MMORPG (in my opinion) should really have playerdriven content (PvP), but it needs PvE as well to some extent.

Oh, and pie is sooo much better than cake... seriously!

My posts are usually too long,so i will try a shorter approach :D.

The reason PVP does NOT work while coinciding with PVE is VERY simple.It is about respect for your fellow player.Look at what bothers PVE'rs,they don't like Kill Stealing or being over camped,why? lack of respect for your fellow players.

PVP is all about not caring what your fellow player wants to do,it is going to be up to you to decide,screw them. A game is not a complete MMORPG unless it has complete content outside of just PVP,so how do they co exist? they don't.

Say a player or many players only have an hour that day,or perhaps it is just a day,they decide to dedicate to harvesting and crafting?Well anyone can see how a non stop PVP could ruin the game for these players,showing no respect for what they want to do on that day,all that matters to that PVP player is that they get to kill someone.

When PVE'rs decide to kill ,everyone involved in that group have the same goals and they also agree on what to kill or where to kill,so it is people getting along [for the most part].PVP is all about not caring anything about your opponent,you don't care less if you are getting along,your only goal is to kill them.

This is all without discussing hardcore PVP in a game,witch in essence ,is just an even more lack of repsect for your fellow player.One of the biggest reasons PVP does not work ,is the VERY poor designs i have seen out there.So if you cannot over come the simplest hurdles,making a flawless design would be hopeless.

The closest thing to PVP done properly was in UT99[minus the goofy stuff],i jst cannot see how it could work in a MMORPG.Well it can't i know this,because MMORPG'rs like to go for gear and get gear that gives advantages,and have lots of choices for gear,true PVP is about player skills not gear,so they do not match.

I don't find anything at all wrong with pvp focused games but a game without a strong pve element is a failed game  which may not necessarily be the case if it is the other way around having said that and competing in pvp very little any dev that cuts themselves off from this market is foolish to say the least.

While i'm mainly a pve player, i cannot imagine playing on a server where i dont need to be at least a little worried about other players... It just gives you that extra emotion you need. I however agree that without pve, a game simply does not interest me, and i rather play an fps for that...

Because of all that I chose PvE with a little PvP option.

In all honesty I would love a full PvP game with some consequence (I'm an long time defender of stackable items loot, but that's another story), but unfortunately the "pure" pvp players make that impossible. A previous poster wrote about the lack of respect, and that is really the core of the question... Dev's cant simply make full pvp games, because there is NOT enough respect amongst player base...

Its the old "if you dont like it go to pve server blah blah blah...". In pvp enviroments you usually get that sooner then later. I find myself manytimes thinking that some people play not to test their skills, but simply to make other people mad, and ruin their game.... I would think its a simple matter of common sense... If i see an "enemy" player arround, i may feel like attacking it. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I even want to gather some materials, and I do fight for the spot. But enough is enough, its common sense, and the main thing to remember should be "my freedom ends where your freedom starts".

By all this rumble you already understood that more often then i would like, I get jumped but some player (??) that does nothing else then keeping at it until i get tired and go play with my kid... I get my face kicked anyway, but those kicks i enjoy ;)

I will always prefer a server with pvp rules, but i will keep dreaming for a more respectfull player base....

Oh well, game societies are a reflex of our own real society, that makes us wonder why our world is as it is, hey?

I'd consider ... both.

Though PvE is great content for the leveling process and playing with friends, PvP helps in end-game content; City of Heroes for example (pre i13), was fun to have a bit of PvP action when you have a few minutes to spare.

Voted: Equal Parts PvP and PvE.

Though to point out the obvious, every MMO contains both, and both are inherently equal elements. Without the Environment (PvE) you have a colorless and empty infinite abyss. No history, no direction, no techniques and skills, and no purpose. Without the Players (PvP) you do not have a MMO. PvE is responsible for building a world worth existing in. And PvP is more than killing someone; it's any type of competition between players.

The logic crap aside, I prefer hybrids where neither is an exclusive focus. If I feel like bashing mobs over the head for four hours, I want to do that undisturbed. If I want action and excitement, I want to just walk through a door and start slaughtering people; not AI, but actual players, who are unpredictable.

I guess that means I prefer zoned PvP games, because I like the two separated and completely at my own option, depending on my current state of mind.

Also I'm quite antisocial and don't like guilding.

Well I have to say PvE. Put simply, well thought out PvE will lead to better PvP. As far as classes, skills, areas, ect. It all starts with PvE in my opinion.

The option I wanted to choose wasn't there, I had to choose the one I thought closest represented how I feel.  I think that for most MMORPG's that PvE is most important.  But I don't think that PvP should be some sort of afterthough thrown in just to say the game has PvP. 

I actually wrote an article on this a few months back.  I think that PvP is the fuel that drives the body of PvE Endgame.  I think that unless you have a game with ever-contiuing content updates, players being able to battle against each other gives reason for acquiring nice, shiny, gear at maxed out levels.

What it boils down to is :
Everyone plays the game for their own reasons.

If you are PVEing, doing your quests, killing monsters, etc. you are not ruining the game for someone else.

In an open pvp (gank) scenario, that's precisely what you're doing. In fact, a lot of the "pvp kiddies" play for this very reason - to ruin someone else's time.

PvP can be a large part of an MMO and be completely fine - as long as it does not interfere with players ability and desire to play the game without participating in it. This means no super-leet pvp rewards, no pvp only skills/items, et cetera.

This is why separate ruleset servers tend to work best.
These two groups of people are never going to agree.

On one hand, group A wants to play the game.
Group B wants to interfere with group A from playing the game.
This cannot work. Separate them. Either by server, or by zone, or by ruleset.

Asheron's Call had a system where you had to 'go red' and then you could attack/be attacked by others who were red and anyone not interested didn't have to bother. That was fine.

DaoC has separate zones for PvP, as well as some skills that could be gained by going up the PvP levels, but most of these were geared toward PvP.

The 'crafters and such' to support an economy are not going to work hard only to be ganked by a bored Group B persona and lose their hard earned items. They'll simply play another game in which that isn't possible.

Nerfing a game's PVEability to balance PVP is unacceptable as the PVE, the story, should always take priority. Thats the RPG in MMORPG.

If you just want to gank people all day and not quest, level up, build your character, then I point you to the many many available FPS games.

Hi, i'm new to these forums but started playing mmorpgs with ultima online and I was hooked. I liked the danger of leaving town and you might get done, and then when I got more experienced I enjoyed the thrill of killing people and taking their stuff. Im a loner I prefer the ranger type hiding and when a group has taken a beating from npc's I strike as I did in shadowbane which I loved. The only trouble is that I would go unpunished, now I look back to the wild west in america and think that the rules there would be great for an mmorpg, safe in towns and if you kill then you get a reward dead or alive on your head. Then you would have posses hunting you for gold.

I find PvP and PvE both are very important aspects of any MMO. Depending on the game the only thing I don't like about PvP in MMO's is open PvP anywhere, because usually what you'll find is a bunch of higher lvl players ganking on all the low lvl's ruining any experience or time that player will have playing the game. Of course that depends on the player some will either quit, or work their way to the top and strike those down who got in their way before. The only other thing that comes to mind is item malls in games. I don't have anything thing against them I use them a lot myself, but what I find in a lot of them are items and other things such as gear that will completely overpower any player willing to pay for it. Which I think really ruins the aspects of PvP. I think if PvP is going to be implemented into a game that it should be fair for all players. Those that use the item malls and those that don't, because we all can't afford to pay for the items with RL cash or we don't have to option or ability to purchase items from the item depending on where your from. I find nothing wrong with PvP as along as it's fair for all players and if there are some safe zones or other limitations to the PvP aspect so you don't have to worry about have your player ganked right after creating it.

First i will say I'm one that enjoys both elements equally.  But it all depends on how well each element is done.  And I feel that games should cater more to One or the Other, not Both.  Fury was a bad example in my opinion.  it was a poorly designed game period.  Get a company like Sega to run a purely "total war" type mmo that is purely PVP and you'd see a total different ballgame.

One of the best games to date that i've seen juggle both elements the best has been Guild Wars hands down.  How they managed to pull it off i have no idea... but it's the rare breed for sure.

If you plan to have a good MMO that caters to both you better have all your ducks in a row so to speak before you even begin coding.  if not then both elements end up half baked and it ends up sucking in many ways.

Considering most companies don't have the resources like Blizzard or Bioware have, then they should most likely stick to one or the other.  and put 100% of their resources into making the game great instead of "just good enough".

Plus it really helps to not be so "serious" when it comes to the overall design.  being innovative in the mechanics of the game which add fun elements that you can continue to enjoy the game help a ton.  ie. working as a Blacksmith or Bartender in Fable 2 and  Skill chains in Final Fantasy XI etc...

Anyway, that's just my 2c.

I find PvP dull and uninteresting, it always feels like the cheap option in a MMO. That being my preference I look for the games with the best PvE, which generally is those that focus on PvP as little as possible.

brenth is spot with EVE - put the Pvp'ers on a seperate server and I'd be back to play EVE in an instant LITERALLY! - loved it - played it for over two years - left because of gankers.

Developers who think they will succeed where ALL others have failed at attempting to merge the two play styles into a single MMO environment are naive at best and foolhardy at worst.

It has been proven time and again they don't work together and only by isolating them on separate servers will you please everyone bar those whose enjoyment is garnered through the distress of other players. It is these players that will at the outset divide the games community and ultimately diminish and destroy it.

Do your homework before embarking on such an endeavor.  Look at the competition, learn from it - those who flourish have done so because they separated them - those who don't are either dying slowly, growing at levels measured on one hand (EVE), or have become a memory.

As for EVE - I too would re-subscribe if they used separate servers for pvp and pve.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by AutumnKiss

This was a great topic for me to moderate, because I think that all MMOs should have equal parts of both.

There is nothing better than sneaking up on an unsuspecting player and sniping them in the back or mowing them down with sheer strength... or standing firm healing yourself while they rail against your wards and drain all of their power.  And then you nuke 'em good!

Oh.  And questing is fun, too! 

 

Actually I find that cowardly and will avoid doing that if I can as it seems somewhat "less than".

Other than that I love pvp competition and very large battles.

 

But ganking? Sorry, I'd rather log out and do anything else.

Agreed, randomly being killed by some idiot while I was in the middle of opening a chest as part of a quest, was why I went from loving the game, to uninstalling and vowing never to play again with 'World of Kung Fu'.

I'm sorry, but unlimited PvP is just wrong if you have other activities in a MMO. I don't particularly like having a crafting attempt fail because some turd thought it would be funny to plant an axe in the back of my head, either.

I think that MMOs should always go for a faction set up like warhammer or WoW does, and then mix together PvP with PvE which i "THINK" warhammer has tried to do, i didnt get enough of a chance to play it to its fullest though. But i think a good set up would have a good number (being the larger majority) of quests should be to carry out tasks out in the field while the opposing team tries to do the exact opposite, that way instead of fighting monster AI your fighting other people. The others should be against things that are scripted to feel like epic confrontations like slaying an AI dragon with friends for example. But thats just my thoughts.

Interesting the diametrically opposed opinions that have come to light.

Interesting too that those of us who DETEST PvP UNDERSTAND that others like it and simply think that it should be separated off from those who hate it.

Those who like ganking, griefing and 1-1 combat  DO NOT CARE to understand anyone else. "It should be balanced", "It should be included" - bleh.

Get the picture - there are far more people who dislike PvP and PK'ers enough that they choose a PvE server where PvP and PK is a controlled or optional part of the game. This is born out by how many games have more PvE servers than PvP and how many people are active on PvE servers over PvP.

Get a clue - we don't like it, we don't want it forced down our throats, and we vote with our $$ and our presence - or lack thereof.

Just because the MINORITY is very vocal, as they are in game forums when they call for the nerfing of every other class except their own, this loudness on their part does not mean that they are the bringers of dollars to the table.

Game makers see it happen all the time. Open a game people come, the game becomes unplayable because of the idiots, people leave.

Stop listening to the idiots and look where that money was coming from. Then follow the money.

A fifth grader can figure that out.