Today we’d like to continue a new series of discussion features on MMORPG.com, where we post a few thoughts on a particular MMO game related topic, and then ask the readers to weigh in with their opinions by responding in the forum thread or casting a vote in the related poll. Once the poll has been open for a reasonable amount of time we’ll then come back and revisit the topic, summarizing the results of the poll and community discussion. Today's feature will focus on the question of PvP vs PvE and their improtance in an MMO.

Yesterday, I took part in a Voon debate (it’s a voice-based chat system created by the folks at Vivox, You can check it out here) on the merits of PvP vs the merits of PvE in MMORPGs. My opponent, Staci Krause from IGN Vault, took the side of PvE, while I stood up and defended the concept of PvP. I saw a certain irony in engaging in PvP (of the debate variety) over the subject, but maybe that’s just me and my over-used mis-use of the word irony.

In any case, taking part in the debate, making my arguments while my opponent made hers, I thought that this was probably a discussion that we should both be having within our respective communities. The only way to get any real answers, if there are answers to get, is to talk to large numbers of knowledgeable gamers who have strong opinions on the subject. Since few gamers have stronger opinions than the folks here at MMORPG.com, I wanted to bring the debate home to you.

Because I had to come up with a two minute intro, and did so in a relatively short time, I want to present you with what I said. After that, I’ll throw some of the other side’s points at you and at the end, I’ll ask you to vote:

Check out the Poll Feature.

This was a great topic for me to moderate, because I think that all MMOs should have equal parts of both.

There is nothing better than sneaking up on an unsuspecting player and sniping them in the back or mowing them down with sheer strength... or standing firm healing yourself while they rail against your wards and drain all of their power.  And then you nuke 'em good!

Oh.  And questing is fun, too! 

Originally posted by AutumnKiss

This was a great topic for me to moderate, because I think that all MMOs should have equal parts of both.

There is nothing better than sneaking up on an unsuspecting player and sniping them in the back or mowing them down with sheer strength... or standing firm healing yourself while they rail against your wards and drain all of their power.  And then you nuke 'em good!

Oh.  And questing is fun, too! 

Actually I find that cowardly and will avoid doing that if I can as it seems somewhat "less than".

Other than that I love pvp competition and very large battles.

But ganking? Sorry, I'd rather log out and do anything else.

Both PvP and PvE are important, but it really depends on the MMORPG on how you'd go about implementing the rulesets. I find that it makes most business sense to create servers with different rulesets, so that they game caters to everyones preferred playstyle. IF there isn't enough demand for a particular ruleset, you can always transfer peoples characters to a server of their choice and shut that server down. However, some games may not need different rulesets, because the core of the game may only cause it to make sense to have 1 or 2 types of servers.

I think players like variety. There are pure PvE and pure PvP crowds, but I bet most people fall in the middle somewhere. It's good when a game offers full pvp, contested zone pvp, pvp matches, and arena's. Doing this offers something for everyone. Many games have this approach and this approach should be expanded upon. If I was a developer, I'd create 4 rulesets. A PvE server, a RP-PvE server, a Consensual PvP server, and a Open PvP server. I'd also have classes balanced based on server type. It's always a tragedy when PvE is messed with as a result of classes being buffed or nerfed in the name of PvP. Leave classes alone on PvE and RP servers, and balance the classes on the PvP servers.

There have always been two main problems here: pvp needs consequences (for both sides) and there needs to be pve content for those "down" times. Very few games have even come close to getting the balancing act right. In  my opinion, DAoC and EVE are the two which have done the best at this. (PotBS tried and failed miserably)

Explanation of consequences: There *must* be a balance between the risks/gains of the winner and the losses on the losing side. This can be item loss, loot drops, exp/skill penalties or others but there has to be both an incentive for winning and a penalty for losing. Otherwise you end up with a meaningless zergling gank fest.

Also, there must be persistant consequences in terms of territory held, faction standings and the like. Otherwise it ends up lacking direction and meaningful risk. I *want* a guild to be able to establish a "safe commerce" zone or whatever that is relatively protected...but I also want a skilled assasin or large raid to be able to threaten that.

The PvE content *has* to be present for a number of reasons, not least is that you can't PvP constantly. There needs to be a robust crafting system to support/supply the PvP arena, because that draws MORE people into involvement. There needs to be a robust questing/gathering/exploring system with NPC threats, both for things to do and again because it provides a *reason* for PvP. It's much more exciting to fight someone over control of that key mining area than it is to go on roaminggank997 looking for some target...PvE objects give both sides targets.

Hi,

I´ve played some MMO´s and my opinion is that there should be more PvP elements than PvE.

In the beginning it´s more interesting to explore and enjoy the story, so PvE is important, but advancing in the game, it´s getting more and more boring... you know all aspects of AI, monsters, tactics etc. Maybe AddOn´s can bring back the fun, but not for long.

PvP in contrast allways keeps me awake. It´s exciting, funny and you´ve got a real challenge - not just AI. Combined with emotes and some guys with brains, you can have a great variety of ... well... everything. You can even break the rules of the game and cooperate with game set enemies PLUS you can have real role playing - not just a game that calls itself role playing game because you can choose a character. That´s not role playing.

Farming and raiding is not all ...not at all.

I understand that there are players who simply don´t like PvP, so PvE should be there, too. But what´s so great beating the same monster the 100th time? I´ve read some guys searching players for their guilds and shouting around "You have to come to raid every day from 6 PM to 10PM". How can this be fun? All the time raiding... all the same: Just stupid slaying and slashing mobs till your eyes fall out? Come on... there has to be FUN in a game, not just functioning like a computer.

Greets,

'Chazer

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by AutumnKiss

This was a great topic for me to moderate, because I think that all MMOs should have equal parts of both.

There is nothing better than sneaking up on an unsuspecting player and sniping them in the back or mowing them down with sheer strength... or standing firm healing yourself while they rail against your wards and drain all of their power.  And then you nuke 'em good!

Oh.  And questing is fun, too! 

 

Actually I find that cowardly and will avoid doing that if I can as it seems somewhat "less than".

Other than that I love pvp competition and very large battles.

 

But ganking? Sorry, I'd rather log out and do anything else.

What am I supposed to do?  Tap you on the shoulder and ask if I can play my class to its fullest potential first, and would you please make ready?

Each class has its own abilities, and to succeed at PvP one needs to make full use of those advantages.  I play a ranger (a rogue with stealth and range), and in my game of choice, there are ways to counteract my advantages... there are totems that will allow others to see through invisibility and stealth.  So only if they're not paying attention will they not see me coming.

So call it what you will.  But if you get upset because someone gets the jump on you then maybe you need to rethink your strategy, rather than insult the other player.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by AutumnKiss

This was a great topic for me to moderate, because I think that all MMOs should have equal parts of both.

There is nothing better than sneaking up on an unsuspecting player and sniping them in the back or mowing them down with sheer strength... or standing firm healing yourself while they rail against your wards and drain all of their power.  And then you nuke 'em good!

Oh.  And questing is fun, too! 

 

Actually I find that cowardly and will avoid doing that if I can as it seems somewhat "less than".

Other than that I love pvp competition and very large battles.

 

But ganking? Sorry, I'd rather log out and do anything else.

Hi Sovrath :)

While I'm with you, the sneaky role isnt something I can play myself, I do appreciate the players who can be that ruthless. Constantly having to watch my back in a gameworld brings a real sense of danger that AI and gentlemanly combat alone could never do. My real world is safe, I dont want my gameworld to be safe too! Also, my number of wins from that type of scenario is on a par with the number of losses, so I don't agree it is cowardice on the sneak's behalf - they do risk losing and it's a valid roleplay tactic.

Proper ganking - being helplessly outnumbered - is what I find tiring in some games. In others it has more validity as it fits the backstory. So as above, if it's part of the lore/game design intent then I am cool with it.

I never get mad when my character dies in PvP. Maybe I am just not that competitive?

All PvP, and all PvE, isn't created equal.

Frankly, most MMOs to date have pretty mediocre gameplay in a PvE sense.  There might be some amusing mechanics or entertaining storylines but ultimately the kind of gameplay you see in an MMO is far inferior to what keeps people engaged in singleplayer games.  And what kind of PvE gameplay is that?  The Grind.  Raiding parties crush creativity or tactical improvisation in favor of repetative and highly choreographed battles against known, mapped and blueprinted challenges.  That's not adventure - that's synchronized swimming in elven drag.

PvP tends to attract players with attitudes and not often of the good variety.  The conceits built around PvP are often shallow and superficial leading to a ladder and rewards mentality rather than an immersive war approach.  Where are the rewards for preserving your forces or protecting a place of value in any real sense?

Eve Online does do a good job making PvP feel relevant, both the costs and benefits are based on realistic economic factors and territorial control, while also offering up a big enough universe that one can get lost and hunker down to recover from a setback.   It also avoids the Realm vs. Realm problem where factions can be unbalanced and players can get stuck permanently on the losing side.  This is what killed PotBS for many of us.  In Eve you're your own faction and you can switch player corporations and alliances (or create your own) as the situation demands or opportunity presents itself.

Still, I have to think there must be a way to create PvE content that's more immersive and meaningful without forcing PvP into the mix, or at least direct PvP.  The dynamism of PvP, well designed and thoughtful PvP, keeps a game alive, the lines on the map moving and players always have some news or gossip about current events as fellow players are driving them.  However the asshat magnet that direct PvP is drives many players away. 

I suspect the long term solution for immersive and dynamic MMOs will be indirect PvP where players can strategically dictate the course a war or an economy through NPC proxies.  This will ensure the encounters and behavior on the grid will conform to a setting norm and players tend not to get so bent when they don't find themselves getting pissed or spit on after a battle.  It will focus attention on big picture strategic issues while still allowing for tactical, visceral, low level conflicts not directly between players themselves.

This will also solve the PvE problem of dullness and repetition and lack of adventure if PvE actors and modules make up the strategic portfolio of player factions which they can unleash on hostile player factions.

So I guess my answer is both.  However I voted "PvE" because you have to get that right, first, in order to define a setting and set an example for players in terms of behavior.  A game, which is more theoretical than realized at this point, which gets compelling PvE right will find PvP much easier to integrate and will attract players more broadly than a pure PvP game.

We already have those.  They're called RTSes and FPSes.  They don't have the numbers of WoW or even The Sims (offline) for that matter.

Speaking from many years of MMO gaming and after playing over a dozen different titles I have come to the opinion that many representative PVPers are the lowest form of player,, bullies or cyber preadators if you will,,  they dont play to just compete they come to torcher and harass other players depending on the games ruleset. like beating puppies.

most MMOs tend to keep PVP in check with limited zones where ths can occure its generally a simple matter to avoid such sones and still enjoy a mijority of the game  I tend to agree with this approach its simple and effective.

other games such as star wars galaxies do a much poorer job at designing a game environment that doesnt allow  PVP to cause casual players to cancel their subscriptions   such as bio bombing the med bay in anchorhead for faction points over and over  where the enemy rez point is 20 meters from that same med bay.

EVE it currently the EXTREEM PVP  as it is a "free for all" type of PVP  it does have its high security and low security and no security areas  but the areas where pvp normally occures is over 70%!!! even the new expansion they are coming out with is 100% PVP.

EVE is so anti-casual player (PVE or carebears) that and non pvp corperation such as miners or haulers can be war declared  alowing them to be attacked ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE. this FORCES the corperation only a few choices (1) sit in station hoping the war wont be reapplied the next week (2) attempt to "fight back in effect do what the PVPers want you to do (3) leave the corp for a generic NPC corp to escape the war (4) cancel the subscription and find a more compatable MMO (there are no other space MMOs)

What this argument really comes down to is really the ability for every player to be able to choose THE AMOUNT of risk/PVP they are willing to accept as they play,, taking away or limiting this choice makes for some very unhappy palayers.  the best MMOs presurve this choice  such as specific zones  or player declarations some even go as far as having "limited PVP" areas that is non-lethal sort of a shallow end of the pool.

PVPERS especially in EVE cut their own throats because new players in small inexpirenced ships are blasted and killed within seconds, feeling to the new player more like a rape or molestation than "competition" they will even go as far as routinly blowing up unarmed haulers and miners "just because they can"  and CCP cant figure out why so many players croud into the noob/high sec space??? all i have to say is DUH!!!  untill they have a more fair and much less harassing PVP all there going to be is a PVPers nitch game  (their excited to have a peak online users reached of 50k  there normal is like 30k they could easily double that with more friendly gameplay) the PVPers say this will make it like WOW  I definatly dissagree all that it would mean is that you wouldnt be able to harass players that do not wish to participate in your form of gameplay and that i see as a very good thing!

if it was up to me id dumpall those PVPgankers on a seperate PVP server  where they can "compete" all they want! and leave the rest of us to enjoy the game in peace!

I agree that having a safe game world is boring!

I agree that group vs. solo (or other unmatched warfare) is unfair and distasteful.

I agree that PvE needs to be right before PvP can succeed.

I agree that cake is better than pie, and "ninjas vs. pirates" will never be solved as they both rock.

Originally posted by AutumnKiss

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by AutumnKiss

This was a great topic for me to moderate, because I think that all MMOs should have equal parts of both.

There is nothing better than sneaking up on an unsuspecting player and sniping them in the back or mowing them down with sheer strength... or standing firm healing yourself while they rail against your wards and drain all of their power.  And then you nuke 'em good!

Oh.  And questing is fun, too! 

 

Actually I find that cowardly and will avoid doing that if I can as it seems somewhat "less than".

Other than that I love pvp competition and very large battles.

 

But ganking? Sorry, I'd rather log out and do anything else.

What am I supposed to do?  Tap you on the shoulder and ask if I can play my class to its fullest potential first, and would you please make ready?

Each class has its own abilities, and to succeed at PvP one needs to make full use of those advantages.  I play a ranger (a rogue with stealth and range), and in my game of choice, there are ways to counteract my advantages... there are totems that will allow others to see through invisibility and stealth.  So only if they're not paying attention will they not see me coming.

So call it what you will.  But if you get upset because someone gets the jump on you then maybe you need to rethink your strategy, rather than insult the other player.

Uh, hold on there. Read what you wrote:

There is nothing better than sneaking up on an unsuspecting player and sniping them in the back

Now do you see why I wrote what I wrote? You clearly enjoy ganking people. I suspect you play a rogue for the express interest to do just that. And I am not (  ) saying that "I" get upset about being ganked. I am saying that I find it highly distasteful to walk up to someone unawares, get in several shots before he can even find me and then claim a victory.

Small children can do that without a modicum of skill.

To that end, I was once ganked in Lineage 2 by a player several levels lower. I was in PvE gear, playing with sound off and just listing to music.

I say "gf" and he runs by with a "sexay".

So I find him a few weeks later, head toward him and what does he do? He runs. he runs like the sniveling little coward he is. I then kill him (he never even takes a shot) and he goes on a rage of expletives.

So I highly suspect that most people are not role playing their way through ganking. You might but I still consider it a "non-victory" to essentially take away a good  amount of health before they even find you.

Neither is more important than the other, both are vital functions of a robust dynamic MMORPG.

That being said, PvP without a PvE background is merely multiplayer. In an MMORPG, PvP without economy, market, crafting, rp, etc... is pointless. The people who don't necessarily like PvP that much are the people who build the community in which PvP becomes meaningful and fun.

I guess Im getting old. I started MMO in Closed beta for EQ about 5 months before release and have been playing MMOs ever since. Before MMO i played a ton of FPS and still do to some.

Everquest to me was one of the pioneering games for the genre and it was solely PvE. Some of my fondest memories are of 72man Rathe Council raids with no Vent. I tried DaoC for a time and must admit RvR was a lot of fun. I moved to WoW and started PvPing more but to this day, I can take it or leave it.

The part that I have an issue with is when Players can get equal armor/gear from PvP farming(usually solo) that I can get in a coordinated effort and months of raiding PvE. Im all for them having great gear for PvP, but there needs to be a time and place for it. If a PvP player is fighting an AI mob(non-player) in PvP gear it they should get destroyed. Same with a PvE player trying to do PvP with Raid gear. The 2 things should never intermingle.

To this point Blizzard has done a semi good job of that, but still needs a lot more change.

WaR was a primarily PvP game and you see where its going.. Straight in the Toilet. It was fun for the first couple weeks, but then it tanked. 

Games that have had the most success have been primarily PvE games..

I like they way DAoC did there PvP/PvE. Both elements are important, but the fun is where the PvP is at.

Okay, Sovrath... (I detest long quote strings, so I'm going to scale it back now), since we don't know each other I guess I owe you a bit more information about me as a player.

I did not choose my class that I play now... I actually started this character as an Assassin, and was asked to change for raid purposes.

I chose the Assassin because of how the class looked.  Visually.  I had no desire to play PvP, but my guild moved to the PvP server and I went with them because... well... they're my guild.  I am, however, glad I did it, and will never look back.

I by no means consider myself a great PvP player (read: epic fail! ), but if someone wants to fight me I'll take them on.  Win or lose.  Why?  Because it's PvP.  If I don't want to engage in this type of combat, I should just return to PvE.

Because you find it distasteful for a class to use their Dev-given abilities for the purpose intended really only says that you prefer to engage in PvP combat by other means, or maybe deep down you actually prefer PvE but have yet to admit it to yourself.  Regardless, as I mentioned before, in the game I play there are measures that everyone can take to counteract my class abilities.  So only if you're not paying attention can I really get the jump on you.  I like it this way, too... it challenges my skill.  When I do find someone who is not paying attention, I am going to use the abilities I have to gain the advantage. But I do not point and laugh, I do not cackle as I run by, and I will give them ample opportunity to come back and try me again.

We are in agreement about the chickens that "gank" you and then when you come back for them they run, and also will pat themselves on the back for their "superior" capabilities in PvP and call you (or me, or whomever) all sorts of childish names just to further "enhance" their "victory".

I detest dishonorable game play.  I refuse to engage in 1v1 fights with others looking on until after I have watched for awhile to ensure that everyone is following the rules of the agreed upon 1v1 combat.  Sadly, quite often many don't.  And I lose respect for them as players and people.

 PVE games are far and above PVP games. PVP can be fun at times, but what good is a PVP game if you have no one to PVP.

A well developed PVE game will keep the game going.

PVP also tends to bring up a lot of "Class Balance" Issues, that would never be brought up as often in a PVE Game.

Originally posted by AutumnKiss

This was a great topic for me to moderate, because I think that all MMOs should have equal parts of both.

There is nothing better than sneaking up on an unsuspecting player and sniping them in the back or mowing them down with sheer strength... or standing firm healing yourself while they rail against your wards and drain all of their power.  And then you nuke 'em good!

Oh.  And questing is fun, too! 

Ganking is griefing.  Period. 

It's the primary reason I don't bother with most PvP servers.  Toe to toe PvP, I'm all about it.  Endgame PvP content, sure... console fighting games, luv 'em to death.  But nothing says "I get thrown into a dumpster daily in real life" quite like sneaking off to a zone 20 levels below you to backstab noobs.

And since most PvE servers allow all the PvP things I like and make the things I don't impossible, that's where I go.

 My reason behind playing mmorpgs used to be solely for pvp purposes. Ive found at some point in any game, the pvp is quite pointless but pve aspects live on through anything. In pretty much any game from the more hardcore Uo to Lineage 2 to carebear Wow, it is all the same. There is NO penalty to ones actions in game. Sure they put in a silly system built on making people happy. But every good griefer knows his way around the system in any game , by normal means or by exploit. Its annoying and at this point in life i guess i prefer to not deal with it as seldom as it may be.

Robsolf, you're automatically assuming I go to zones 20 levels lower than me?  Don't you think that's a bit unfair?

Sure, I enjoy the benefits of my class.  But so does the healer that can plant their feet and regenerate power every time I hit them.  Or the tank with 30 second buffs that gives them complete immunity to all attacks during that time?  What about the mage with a mana-sieve-style combat art that leeches off you and refills them?

Every class has a benefit.  It's how you play that class... or your character, for that matter... that counts.  And I do not enjoy unfair combat in any fashion.  Period.