Ummm i can play the game and browse the internet i dont need to alt tab the game windowed mode is the size of your internet browser when maximized. So your able to have the game open and check your ffxi wiki or whatever else.

Originally posted by NotArkard

 

I would never openly recommend anyone use any third party tools, as they are against the game's ToS.

It's interesting. People that oppose the windower use other third-party programs themselves, such as the model viewer. The model viewer allows for easy manipulation of DAT files. That's also against the rules. Whether or not you use it for that purpose, you are breaking the rules by using it at all. The same applies to the windower. Not everyone uses it to "cheat." Still, it's against the rules to even have it.

The reason people still use it is because there's no point in using the standard FFXI windowed mode, as it does not allow you to alt-tab. What the hell is the point in having your game in a window if you can't switch to other windows?

DrawDistance does not allow you to see mobs before anyone else, either. Most of the plugins available for the Windower are either harmless or redundant. They do things you can already achieve through game commands.

TParty? Just ask your party members what their TP is currently at. Recast? A recast macro can echo the cooldowns for all your abilities easily. Status timers? Most people already know how long their spells last, and it even says in the chat log when it wears off.

What irks me the most about FFXI's community is their poor grasp on the concept of cheating. Like the people who argued all the recently-banned dupers were not cheating.

So, if I have that straight:

-Duping items = clever use of game mechanics?
-Tabbing out of the game = cheating?

Please.

FYI, only recently you could tab out of FFXI without using the windower. Just sayin'.

-Edit-

As a side note, where do people want to draw the line on the whole third-party debate? Either all third-party applications are okay, or none of them are(including the seemingly harmless modelviewer).

You can alt + tab in window mode when FFXI is the top window. I did it last night to test it out. Are you sure you are running in window mode? You need to go into FFXI Config, click the "Run in window mode" and then apply and restart POL and FFXI. Plus if you couldn't you use your mouse to move to another window just fine. I know I have said you can basically unplug your mouse when playing FFXI, but I don't expect anyone to seriously do it. That is still a tool to use.

And again, if all windower did was allow you to play in a window I would not have a problem with it. It is the addition of all the other plug-ins that are the problem. There is only one legit use for windower and that is to run in windowed mode. That is why SE only implemented their own window mode, because it was the only legit reason. You could have someone on a PS2 be on a computer or a laptop checking quest information while you have a PC player have their box tried up and can't. The window mode quite frankly levels the playing field for the PC user, becuase the console user had the advantage in that aspect.

They did not implement the other plug-ins because they are not supposed to be in the game. You are not supposed to see TP unless you ask someone to tell you. You are not supposed to know the exact distance to stand to use a range attack unless you do it enough that you do it instinctively.

As for the model viewer. I have used it, not in the last what 2 years now? Not to change the .dat files, but to view the .dat files to make my sigs and such some backgrounds. I started by trying to move my character in just the right way and snapping a screen shot quickly. Was quite challeging. Changing the .dat file is against the ToS, I don't think viewing is, but I could be wrong there. I would agree though that .dat editing/swaping is against ToS and .dat removal is cheating, but if you can ever get your buddy's PC, it is funny as hell to see his/her reaction when you swap Colibri dats for Vrtra dats

So draw distance has no effect on mobs? I hear one person say scenery I hear another person say objects. I can't fathom being able to see NPCs sooner and not being able to see the mob standing next to the NPC.

And you don't have it straight. Duping items = exploiting a bug in the game. No one intended for that kinda thing to happen. Presumably it was an clever attempt to save the normal person from falling victum to a greedy leader. The leader could have seen a drop they wanted and just booted everyone that tried to lot. This would have allowed them to keep the pool.

I don't think that being able to see mobs before other players is even possible because you only see what the server tells you is there. YOUR player model is client-side, but mobs, NPCs, and players are all server. That's why it takes a second or two for them to appear when you zone in, and why they sometimes move less smoothly than you do.  The server is set to tell you what is where at certain distances, and that's not something you can really change.

The actual zone, however, is all completely loaded onto your computer when you zone in.

That being said, I never really used plugins for Windower other than that because it makes the game actually look decent for being six(?) years old. Also, the official windower has a bad habit of mucking up game performance, while the normal windower, for whatever reason, makes the game run as well as if it was fullscreen.

I don't think Windower is illegal itself, since windower exist for almost 5 years by now. SE never banned it nor said anything to the "maker" about it.

SE can't ban this software because there are quite a number of people using it.

Personally, i use windower not only to avoid crashing, but also for global IME feature which allow me to talk with japanese players. I have to say translation function is SO bad, that it is off 90% of the time.

TP party is Nice, but it is NEVER correct. In some senses, most of the plug-in are not 100% working either.

Anyway, we all know you are a "Windower" hater icon.

Windower does offer other plug-in like that "cancel" effect thing or better macros tab. So you can change all your armor when you cast a certain spell instead of limiting 3-4 lines.

I never felt it is a cheat, it is just more a support side thing. If you want to argue about cheating seriously, just go on WoW forum and talk about CTraid.

Originally posted by wrongfeifong

Anyway, we all know you are a "Windower" hater icon.

I am not a windower hater as much as a fair play advicator.

Anywho ... if you see how much I rip Windower you should see how much I rip WoW. For the time when I was playing that I didn't use any kind of add-on or plug-in there either (/shock) and they allow it. I rip hard into my friends that play it and use all these add-ons, it is brutal trust me.

Just to sum up everything: If you want to play the game, PLAY THE FUCKING GAME! Not the game that you think it should be because for some reason you think you designed it better, the game that is actually there. The one that the people you pay money to on a monthly basis to play. If you really fel like moding a game go download a ROM and Super Mario Brothers and mob it so instead of a plumber jumping on mushrooms it is a hooker jumping on dildos. I don't really care. When you start to mess with a game that others are also playing simultaniously with you and making it so your experience is better than the guy to your left you are wrong. Ask yourself this: If you didn't have windower at your disposal would you still be playing FFXI? If they took it away from you would you stop playing? If they took your Konami Code away, would you have ever played Contra? 

and by the way ... that poker anaology was damn near perfect. A game in which you inject more tools for you and only you designed to better your enjoyment over others at the expense of the integrity of the game you are defacing.

And to answer brandon's question: If they didn't show HP/MP  ... tough shit. It is the game they give you so play it. And you really really need to check rhetoric:

"If people are too stubborn to realize that the windower absolutely 100% helps you in many many ways that S-E has neglected to do, then that's their own personal fault."

That sounds an aweful lot like: "SE should have fixed the bug that allowed me to dupe items. It is there fault I did this and so it is not cheating" Which is the bullshit that most of those ban people were spewing about in their defense. A dellusionsal responce to an action that they did that attempts to place the blame on other. Kinda like that parent whose child does something wrong placeing blame on a victum because their child is flawless and perfect: "It's your hunbands fault . He should not have been in bed asleep when my child broke into your house and stabbed him to death" (I know ... this is an off-the-wall anaology, but I have heard equally as bad one).

 I'll say it again. It isn't that they are neglecting to put something into the game. It is the fact that it is not supposed to be there in the first place.

You realize WoW promotes addons right? The game installs with an addon folder. In fact, blizzard has fancied addons so much that they take ideas and implement them into development. WoW would never have scrolling combat text or a threat meter, or even an in game voice system, had it not been for their pro-addon attitude.

Addons never add unfair advantage, they just compile information that any normal user has access to.

You shouldn't talk about things you don't understand.

Originally posted by baruser

Addons never add unfair advantage, they just compile information that any normal user has access to.

You shouldn't talk about things you don't understand.

Umm .. .yeah I do know they promote add-ons. I think I said that they allow them. Yup ... I read what I wrote I did say it. Please review, it is a nice read.

But just to use your examples ... a threat meter. Now I don't know exactly what it is ... but I am going to venture a guess that it is some guage that shows the ammount of emnity a creature has towards a player, probably compares it to others in the party or raid. Is that right? Assuming i'm right, are you saying that a tank that is using a threat meter would not have an advantage over a tank that doesn't? So a tank sees his emnity dipping or watching a healers eminty increase and knows he has to spam some moves to get back on top of the emity curve. So this guy doesn't have an advantage over the guy next to him that doesn't have this add on and thus has to rely on instinct and experience to guage his own emnity?

I don't see how you couldn't say that there is an unfair advantage here (again assuming I'm right about the add-on). Or is it the other tanks fault for not using  this tool. This is the kinda thing I rip on my friends about. That they can't keep track of their own emnity enough that they need think to do it for them. I am sure there are plenty of other example that are out there that could prove my point, but since I don't have a vast knowledge of WoW's add-on system I'm at a little of a disadvantage. That isn't an benign as a damage parcer or the abiilty to see the going price of an item on the Auction House.

But you see ... this is all a moot point because as we both have stated now WoW allows this to happen. The issue here is we are in FFXI now where it is not, it is against the Terms of Service that you agreed to each and every time you log into the game. If SE wanted the game to do the things that windower does they would have added them already. As they are not they create an unfair advantage to a player that is not using them (especially apperent, but not limited to the console versons of the game). Anything that goes against these ToS would be considered cheating. So ... I'm gonna have to thrown the later part of your quote above right back at ya.

Bottom line of this argument is clearly: never make MMOs for consoles. Part of what made WoW so popular, I think, is the fact that you could customize your gameplay any way you wanted. Want pink ribbons all over your hotkeys? You got 'em.

You can't even change the damn font in FFXI without having to tear into some .DATs. It's outdated game design, to be honest.

Developers these days(smart ones) realize that game communities CAN make their games better than their own developers. That's why the best games out there are games that can be heavily modded(Fallout 3, Oblivion, Morrowind, etc.). It increases the value of a game a thousandfold. They know if people want to replace Mario with a hooker, they will. So why not just sell them the game, toss the SDK their way, and let them do it?

The future of all gaming, MMOs included, lies within the communities and the additions they provide to the game. A good example is Titan Quest. When IronLore closed down, the community basically took over development of the game. To this day the community still produce patches, fixes bugs, and offers support, even though the company no longer exists.

Whatever decision is made in the end to use third-party tools should be done only after you've had a chance to do your own research. Test these tools out and see if you like them. There's uneducated people on both sides of the third-party tool argument for FFXI, for sure. WoW addons reached the point where they would play the game for you, and so they are an awful example of modding.

Even with all the possible plugins the Windower offers, I don't think anyone can say it automates every function of the game. If you do think that, then you truly have no idea what you're talking about.

made an article about this thread hope you guys dont mind.

http://www.linkshells.com/blogs/2009/2/20/m5024528/Is_windower_illegal/

I think I'll say something you all want to say but nobody has said it.

Icon, shut the hell up. Get a life, stop camping these forums, nobody likes reading your 5 paragraph opinionated pieces of trash. I only read two and I decided to write this. Maybe you need to get laid more; or did your attitude result in your wife cheating on you with somebody who has less of an ego?

kthxbai.

Originally posted by Lienhart

I think I'll say something you all want to say but nobody has said it.

Icon, shut the hell up. Get a life, stop camping these forums, nobody likes reading your 5 paragraph opinionated pieces of trash. I only read two and I decided to write this. Maybe you need to get laid more; or did your attitude result in your wife cheating on you with somebody who has less of an ego?

kthxbai.

Well I'll keep it down to a one paragraph summary then: I'm right.

No one has been banned because of using Windower, iirc.

And for those of you against it (clowns) there are many reasons why Windower is the better choice over S-E's Window mode.

SE's window mode looks horrible, you can't maximize it properly.. even when you make the window maximized you can still see the stupid Windows bar at the top and your taskbar/system tray at the bottom.

With Windower however, you can play in true-fullscreen (no windows bar) and still alt tab... not to mention draw distance, 100x better screenshots and the good ole party TP display.

if SE want people to stop using Windower, they need to enhance their game. Make fullscreen not crash when people alt tab... let PC users increase their draw distance.. and FFS implement DirectX9, not only will the game look 10x better but it will remove all the issues with newer cards.

8 series have soo many problems with FFXI it's not even funny.

Originally posted by Rekuja

No one has been banned because of using Windower, iirc.

And for those of you against it (clowns) there are many reasons why Windower is the better choice over S-E's Window mode.

SE's window mode looks horrible, you can't maximize it properly.. even when you make the window maximized you can still see the stupid Windows bar at the top and your taskbar/system tray at the bottom.

With Windower however, you can play in true-fullscreen (no windows bar) and still alt tab... not to mention draw distance, 100x better screenshots and the good ole party TP display.

if SE want people to stop using Windower, they need to enhance their game. Make fullscreen not crash when people alt tab... let PC users increase their draw distance.. and FFS implement DirectX9, not only will the game look 10x better but it will remove all the issues with newer cards.

8 series have soo many problems with FFXI it's not even funny.

I heard a while back that windower was the cause of some accounts being stolen...

Any truth to that?

No.

Originally posted by Satimasu

No.

I have heard the opposite, direct from people who have been hacked. Apperently there was some plug-in that cause some people problems, not the program itself. Interesting enough that soon after this news is when SE put out its very first mass message saying not to use 3rd party tools.

Yeah, but not the windower itself. I've only heard of the hacking through malware on websites and such. If people were using plug-ins they weren't suppose to, then serves them right (although I don't really approve of any of the plug-ins for the most part).

Originally posted by wrongfeifong

This topic will be remove soon, however, i will tell you.

Yes, any use of third party softwares not offical by SE for use are illegal.

However, i still haven't yet met anyone getting ban using it. Unless you use some "botting" similar features on it.

Just so you know, FFXI has been using a "memory" scan (which violate the user in reality but they won't admit it) on playonline's program.

Windower seem block that scan so they do know you use it.

 

Alot people here will get very extreme saying it is cheating, i on the other hand can't even run FFXI if i don't use it. (as my virus scan will pop the game out every 5 min + minor crashes every 10 min even without virus scan)

your right this topic was removed................../sarcasm

---

Originally posted by Satimasu
Yeah, but not the windower itself. I've only heard of the hacking through malware on websites and such. If people were using plug-ins they weren't suppose to, then serves them right (although I don't really approve of any of the plug-ins for the most part).

---

This is correct. It was a piece of malware found on some popular sites(ffxiah.com, somepage, etc). It wasn't the sites that posted the malware, it just managed to sneak in there.

As always, it was just another case of internet darwinism. Only total dumbasses got their accounts stolen. The internet-savvy didn't.

This may be obvious, but don't download plug-ins from any website other than the Windower's. In fact, don't download the Windower or its plug-ins at all, because it is illegal software. You WILL be arrested.

Originally posted by ic0n67

Originally posted by NotBrandon

So let me get this straight. You're anti-windower I can tell. S-E is worthless at fixing / adding certain things to this game. It's very neglected. Like someone already said, bringing your draw distance up to 200, adding some cosmetic touches to enhance what the game looks like. While I love the game and how it looks, I'd NEVER play with normal draw distance and a lack of tinkering with the registry. Some things are  just icing on the cake, and are not considered "Cheating".

You mention TParty. So you like all your melee randomly popping their sweet macros with <call1>s showing their TP? Yeah, me too, I love it! And on macros, do you do endgame? With gear swapping macros? You're telling me you use the standard 6 line macros for your gear swaps? Come on.

The windower enhances the game in ways S-E will not do. They added their own windower... woop-de-doo. When they add in all these other features that the windower plugins do, then I'll gladly stop using the windower. Just like the other 90% of the population. S-E won't ban the windower, because they would most likely kill their playerbase.

 

TParty: Yup I like talking to people. The idea of the game is interacting with other people. Kinda like how you don't know who has a quest for you or not until you ask. It is supposed to simulate real life, that is the point of ALL of Final Fantasy. Normal people put into a world of extrodinary things. Speaking as a BLM here ... the game was better back in the day when people would worry about TP and try and skill chain b/c it was more fun for me. Skill Chaining is a lot art (at least on Asura) coridinating attack is something that no one does with or without the plug in.

And yes I do endgame. I honestly forget if you were around for beta or how long you were in the game your first time through. Chances are I was doing endgame long before you; remember I'm the old shit. And yes ... all my macros have 6 or less lines in them. (EDIT: come to think of it the most I might have is 5)

The thing you are missing about the whole plug in thing isn't that SE won't put these enhancements in. It is they aren't supposed to be there in the first place. That is why it is cheating. "No really poker would be so much better with 8 Aces. That is why I put 4 others up my sleeve. That isn't cheating" "Baseball would great if eveyone was hitting a homerun so lets juice. That isn't cheating" "Honey you are on the rag this week, and i'm honry so I hooked up with my ex for the night. That isn't cheating" ... get the idea or do I have to come up with more anaolgies to prove my point? If they wanted to add them they would have added them.

Let me see if I got this right. Draw distance. This will increase distance out that your game will see things. So things like buildings, mobs, npcs, players etc that would normally not be seen by me because they are too far away would be seen by you if you are standing right next to me. That's correct right?

Personally I'm proud to do the shit that I can do or the shit that I have done without something assisting me to do so. Quite frankly it starts to boarder on pathetic to need to rely on a a third party tool to play a game.

And just to state the obvious here. PS2/3 and Xbox do not get these plugins. Anything that enhanses the game mechanics to give one person an advantage over another is cheating. A person using windower knows another party members TP or can swap 10 pieces of gear at once, or can look through a wall to see a mob thus it is cheating. If you disagree you are wrong.

Draw distance does NOT increase the extent to which you can see mobs. Only Landscapes.

ONLY LANDSCAPES.

Period.

I suppose you think the IME addon is cheating too, allowing japanese speakers in North America to be able to type in Japanese characters and better communicate with JP.

Obviously SE intended everyone to use Auto translate (or romaji, if u are completely pig headed), to speak to JP, and if you understand Japanese, you should be limited to this mechanic, because using Japanese on an english client is CHEATING.

Wrong.

Just don't talk about using it in game and you'll be fine.