How does that verse prove that God is not effected by time?

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by NeverLand7

Another interesting thing to think about is who is to say God can't learn from us / evovle with us? Most likely because knowledge is merely a battle with the external world and yourself , life is to be lived not conceptualized. You only ""do"" something because you have to or it benefits you , but God on the other hand isn't controlled by time or flesh , so really I suppose ultimately the closest aspect one can become to God is achieving emptiness or a state of nothingness like buddha or the yogis. The only truth is death , bceause ultimately only death will conquer death.

 

Your question stems and only appears to be possible because it is rooted in a philosophical god and not the Biblical God. God knows all things - which can be translated as omniscience. Problem is this - the Bible never uses this term so other passages must be used to prove such a divine feature:

Ps 33:15, Ps 139, Is 29:15, Ez 8:12, Rom 11:33 - 35 ... then include the verses that contain the word 'foreknowledge'.

The clearest example, however, is John 16:30, "Now we can see that You know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

God cannot learn anything. In other words, He will never have a new thought. That means He has always been thinking about you - since eternity past.

/slap greek philosophy

EDIT:

Also, Jesus is God, and He has a frame of flesh - He is human. So, in one regard, God is limited by that frame.

In addition, Scripture does not mention whether or not God is hindered by time. We know there is time in Heaven, as there is music. However, the Scripture says, "Even the highest heavens cannot contain you!"

The solution you said is where gnosticism is born - and Buddhism, when instead, the pathway to experience God is through Jesus as the Scripture says, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

That is sorta like religious racism >_> Nowhere does it say Jesus is the only path to God. How can you say you can't reach God realization / experience through yourself or other religions? Krishna was suppose to be God in human form , who's really to say who's wrong or right? It's like what Bruce Lee says '''Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.''' Christianity works for you and that's great but you really should not try to discredit all other religions because of that. Have you actually experienced God/Jesus in your life , not merely by text but by experience? You seem to be very obsessed with trying to prove that Jesus is the only path and way to God and salvation and I can't really agree with that to be honest. 5 rivers lead to one ocean , each river is a religion and the ocean is God.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by lifesbrink

I won't say anything on whether any god exists or not (I am agnostic), but I will say with perfect authority that humans do not have free will, and thus religious rules are both flawed and the result of other humans.  No god would ever lay down rules on a race that was created.  Purely human in context.

 

Who put you in charge to say what God can and cannot do? Also, free will reigns strong within rules. Law is a great examples. Criminals have freewill to BREAK the laws - its the same principal.

Also, I'd like to publicly apologize to Fishermage. What you believe, in regards to a (sort of) universalism salvation is NOT a heresy. It is, however, from my perspective, a false teaching. I wanted to clarify that because a heresy means that person will go to hell. False teachings *might* not (depending on the teaching).

I'll look into the greek meaning of 'forever and ever', btw too. I'm interested to see what it can mean.

Thanks for the great conversation, fishermage. I appreciate you, despite our disagreements :)

 

What we are engaged in is ancient tradition that is noble, wise, and benefits both of us.

We disagree within the love of Christ, and of each other, as brothers. It is nice to show some of the folks on this site how people can disagree without forcing the conversation to go down in flames.

God Bless.

And therefor, this is one array to point to how Christianity is the correct way. Look at the disagreement of Marvel and Fisher. They clearly was respectful, and presented each other with their material regarding their arguements. There was no name calling, damning or attitudes. If we see more people with this perspective on how to take on an arguement with disagreements, don't you think this is better than what the world presents to us today?

Originally posted by NeverLand7

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by NeverLand7

Another interesting thing to think about is who is to say God can't learn from us / evovle with us? Most likely because knowledge is merely a battle with the external world and yourself , life is to be lived not conceptualized. You only ""do"" something because you have to or it benefits you , but God on the other hand isn't controlled by time or flesh , so really I suppose ultimately the closest aspect one can become to God is achieving emptiness or a state of nothingness like buddha or the yogis. The only truth is death , bceause ultimately only death will conquer death.

 

Your question stems and only appears to be possible because it is rooted in a philosophical god and not the Biblical God. God knows all things - which can be translated as omniscience. Problem is this - the Bible never uses this term so other passages must be used to prove such a divine feature:

Ps 33:15, Ps 139, Is 29:15, Ez 8:12, Rom 11:33 - 35 ... then include the verses that contain the word 'foreknowledge'.

The clearest example, however, is John 16:30, "Now we can see that You know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

God cannot learn anything. In other words, He will never have a new thought. That means He has always been thinking about you - since eternity past.

/slap greek philosophy

EDIT:

Also, Jesus is God, and He has a frame of flesh - He is human. So, in one regard, God is limited by that frame.

In addition, Scripture does not mention whether or not God is hindered by time. We know there is time in Heaven, as there is music. However, the Scripture says, "Even the highest heavens cannot contain you!"

The solution you said is where gnosticism is born - and Buddhism, when instead, the pathway to experience God is through Jesus as the Scripture says, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

That is sorta like religious racism >_> Nowhere does it say Jesus is the only path to God. How can you say you can't reach God realization / experience through yourself or other religions? Krishna was suppose to be God in human form , who's really to say who's wrong or right? It's like what Bruce Lee says '''Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.''' Christianity works for you and that's great but you really should not try to discredit all other religions because of that. Have you actually experienced God/Jesus in your life , not merely by text but by experience? You seem to be very obsessed with trying to prove that Jesus is the only path and way to God and salvation and I can't really agree with that to be honest. 5 rivers lead to one ocean , each river is a religion and the ocean is God.

 

Uh John 14:6 states that Jesus is the only way! You can't experience God through your self because you are flawed by sin. And the Bruce Lee quote, what has he done for the world to have an impact on people's lives? That quote, means, to pick and choose to fit your own personal loathing. I think you would fit in perfectly with this new age teachings. And the back bone of these new age teachings are very pagan and occultic.

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

Originally posted by lifesbrink

I won't say anything on whether any god exists or not (I am agnostic), but I will say with perfect authority that humans do not have free will, and thus religious rules are both flawed and the result of other humans.  No god would ever lay down rules on a race that was created.  Purely human in context.

 

Who put you in charge to say what God can and cannot do? Also, free will reigns strong within rules. Law is a great examples. Criminals have freewill to BREAK the laws - its the same principal.

Not about what God can or can not do.  It is simply about the fact that humans in the end are robots.  Not me, not you, not anyone really can go outside of their programming, a complex array of genetics, personal experiences, and outside influences that shape us to make decisions based on our personality, and the societal norm.  Mark Twain had very similar views on this subject, and hell, even he believed in a god. 

Even your example of criminals is flawed.  Sure, criminals can make the choice to break laws, but they do so based on their personality.  Most people who become criminals as it is, are usually uneducated, or were outcasts.  Take gangs and famous serial killers for examples of that.

For that matter, the idea of laws are flawed, as they change based on cultures and time periods.  We can take the example of incest as an example there, something that was once legal, and now is a big faux pas and very illegal in the US, though I am sure some places still do not outlaw it.  Only some laws tend to be similar to all cultures, such as the idea of murder, but that is based largely on self-preservation inherent to our species.

Feel free to try and refute, though.

Originally posted by lifesbrink

 but I will say with perfect authority that humans do not have free will

what? How do you have the "perfect authority" to tell us this?

T

Originally posted by lifesbrink

 

Not about what God can or can not do.  It is simply about the fact that humans in the end are robots.  Not me, not you, not anyone really can go outside of their programming, a complex array of genetics, personal experiences, and outside influences that shape us to make decisions based on our personality, and the societal norm.

So how exactly are humans robots? A robot is built then programmed to do specific tasks. I realise there have been some leaps and bounds in artificial AI recently but nowhere near the level of what a human brain can LEARN. Yes of course a humans life is a complex series of genetics, outside influences etc which lead us towards what society may percieve to be the right course of action but it is the final decision of whether to do or not do the right course of action that shows we have free will.

As to what you said about criminals and gangs etc well......what about all the monetary fraud which goes on from White Collar Workers from exceedingly good backgrounds who turn to crime.Sometimes just for the buzz.

What about all the people from poor socio-economic backgrounds who rise above there stations to better themselves rather than fall into the endless repetetive cycle of crime and drugs in the ineer cities.

If what you say is true then NONE of these things would have happened because the outside influences they recieve would be pretty similar except some CHOOSE to be influenced in different ways.

Thanks T

Originally posted by lifesbrink

We can take the example of incest as an example there, something that was once legal, and now is a big faux pas and very illegal in the US, though I am sure some places still do not outlaw it. 

Ok. There is pretty much NO society in more than 2000 years that has looked on incest being normal. Yes teh Ancient Egyptians practiced it.

The Inuit Indians have some strange laws/practices regarding family sexual relations/marriage.

BUT All major religions in this world find it abhorrant. Ancient Rome thought it was an offence in the eyes of God and Man. It was explicitly forbidden in an Imperial Edict in AD295.

Can you please tell me where it is practiced legally? where it isn't frowned upon? Where it is even allowed?

Thanks T

You live. You die. There is no compelling evidence that god exists. There is no compelling evidence that god doesn't exist. That's it. Simple logic.

The only time I've ever prayed is to the Poker gods hoping that I hit that flush.

Originally posted by MarleVVLL

How does that verse prove that God is not effected by time?

It means that God is beyond time and all around time. Apart from that, from deuteronomion 33:27, Psalm 90:2,  A' Timotheou 1:17, that specific ability is also there. Malachia 3:6 also mentions that god isn't changing.

 You know what really irks me..  The fact you can ramble on leaves, trees, roots and manage to get a 6 page (depending how many posts you're viewing on one) conversation going.

.....oh, there was a religous aspect in there?  What are you complaining about? I'm sorry to say, but that was a real poor excuse to show why christianity and most religions are flawed, with the roots and the leaves and such.  I thought perhaps I would have the slightest interest in this thread, due to the fact it could have been so controversial, but you just managed to turn something the slightest bit interesting into basically the dumbest attempt to start controversy with a weak ass argument.  Why..... why are there so many posts replying to this poorly thought out comment....

Might as well have just said "Religion sucks" and got the same amount of posts.... laff, I still dont even know why anyone would bother posting something like this if they can HONESTLY give two shits about it....

Originally posted by hvc801

   Why..... why are there so many posts replying to this poorly thought out comment....

 

 

  Bored at work springs to mind

Originally posted by tayschrenn

Originally posted by hvc801

   Why..... why are there so many posts replying to this poorly thought out comment....

 

 

  Bored at work springs to mind

lmao. funny you should mention that.

Which is one of the reasons I had to reply to this thread.  Bored at work, normally I would just close the window, or go to CNN.com, but this "argument" that the OP tried to spring up was just a bad one..

Originally posted by lifesbrink

  Mark Twain had very similar views on this subject, and hell, even he believed in a god. 

Of course, he had to, because he was a mason. And I don't trust masons!

Originally posted by NeverLand7

If man sinned before the creation of Earth when he was with God the problem then is not rooted in his own sin but rather the foundation of himself , God. The classical man is another word for a idiot , he is mechanical he can only think what he is programmed and placed with , he can't go beyond the external world thus he lacks proper thought. You have to look at the foundation , the roots not the branches and leafs , you see , we are the branches and leaves and God is the roots. The whole life of the tree is from God , the roots , yet most religious people are exactly like the mechanical man they only think about the branches and leafs because that is what the eyes see , they don't go deeper , to the roots where the whole of the tree is supported and grown from. If there is a problem with the tree than there's a problem with the roots , not the other way around. Thus we can conclude that the classical ''religious"" man can not go deeper than the outside , he can't go deep enough in his own thoughts to the roots he only see the branches and the leafs , showing ignorance and mechancial tendencies.

       Heh your argument is over before you even finish your first sentence......If you actually took the time to read the first 2 pages of the bible you would know that the earth was created before man.........Also God gave Adam  freedom of choice but forbid him to eat from the one tree to see if he would obey God...... YOu can apply the same principles even in our lives today......Many of us know whats right and whats wrong but when given the choice do we always do what is right???

Man was not created before God. 

Go read genisis again. 

Unless it says man was created before the earth in the bible, quite litterally with minimal paraphrasing that "Man was created before the heavans or/and the earth" you need to stop reading bull shoot theoretical books written by "preachers" and "proffessors".

Almost anything not in the bible is quack when talking about the bible and besides that, is not needed.  

Technically aren't all religions man-made? Technically speaking of course. I mean God told certain people to write stuff down therefore they created the documentation and thus created/formed religion.

Originally posted by tayschrenn

Originally posted by lifesbrink

 

Not about what God can or can not do.  It is simply about the fact that humans in the end are robots.  Not me, not you, not anyone really can go outside of their programming, a complex array of genetics, personal experiences, and outside influences that shape us to make decisions based on our personality, and the societal norm.

So how exactly are humans robots? A robot is built then programmed to do specific tasks. I realise there have been some leaps and bounds in artificial AI recently but nowhere near the level of what a human brain can LEARN. Yes of course a humans life is a complex series of genetics, outside influences etc which lead us towards what society may percieve to be the right course of action but it is the final decision of whether to do or not do the right course of action that shows we have free will.

As to what you said about criminals and gangs etc well......what about all the monetary fraud which goes on from White Collar Workers from exceedingly good backgrounds who turn to crime.Sometimes just for the buzz.

What about all the people from poor socio-economic backgrounds who rise above there stations to better themselves rather than fall into the endless repetetive cycle of crime and drugs in the ineer cities.

If what you say is true then NONE of these things would have happened because the outside influences they recieve would be pretty similar except some CHOOSE to be influenced in different ways.

Thanks T

Lifesbrink's argument doesn't make sense to me either.

How do two people in a garage with a hobby end up starting a computer company that ends up making millions? (HP I think)

How does a lawyer become a President? (Abraham Lincoln)

With Lifebrink's scenario they'd still be trapped in their garage and court instead of being able to achieve another destiny on earth. We'd still be under depotism instead of a more free society now. (democracy)

To be on a path you have to choose walking it.

Originally posted by Briansho

Technically aren't all religions man-made? Technically speaking of course. I mean God told certain people to write stuff down therefore they created the documentation and thus created/formed religion.

Very true.

I agree with your statement 90%, the other 10% is me saying that these religions, lets take christianity for arguments sake and the holy bible.  I believe the bible was written to give man a certain comfort about death.  That there will be salvation at the end or your life.. Then again, we shall never know.

Originally posted by Briansho

Technically aren't all religions man-made? Technically speaking of course. I mean God told certain people to write stuff down therefore they created the documentation and thus created/formed religion.

It depends on how you look at it I suppose.

Is an architect not accredited with the building either or just the construction workers? An architect did build the plans.

God created His plan and the scribes are speading His word.