Originally posted by NeverLand7

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by NeverLand7

You see? Nothing , a half an inch between victory and defeat.  www.youtube.com/watch  9:00- 10:00

 

This is exactly why your thinking is clouded. You let a tv device with a movie playing it from hollywood tell you what you want to believe! Lol. So you think this movie is creditable? Alright here's a video for you. Just thought you might find it interesting.

 

www.youtube.com/watch

 

Lol Relax dude ;) I was just joking around and trying to lighten up the thread a little from the previous discussion that was taking place.

I am sorry. I apologize. This is why I hate text conversations. There is no emotion!

I am not a religious person myself.  This is a personal choice.  However, I do believe there are good things about being religious.  I think religion can give people more faith in life, especially when things are not going well.  Religion can offer support in life.  But I also believe that being religious is a personal choice.  Because you believe in a religion, you should not force others to believe it too, and let people do their own choice.  And this is also applicable to non religious people.  I think, people should be free to believe or not believe in the religion of their choice, as long as this involve not hurting anybody (including yourself).

clinical research studies

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

Just because Paul had disagreements with others in the early Christian movie in no way implies that he hijacked the religion

Sorry guys i realise this was a typo. But what a typo. I WANT to see that film.

Now showing at Cinemas near you "The Early Christion Movie" Starring Mel Gibson !!!!

Thanks T

Originally posted by tayschrenn

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

Just because Paul had disagreements with others in the early Christian movie in no way implies that he hijacked the religion

Sorry guys i realise this was a typo. But what a typo. I WANT to see that film.

Now showing at Cinemas near you "The Early Christion Movie" Starring Mel Gibson !!!!

Thanks T

LOL. Yeah, the word there should have been "movement."

Originally posted by lab0rat

I am not a religious person myself.  This is a personal choice.  However, I do believe there are good things about being religious.  I think religion can give people more faith in life, especially when things are not going well.  Religion can offer support in life.  But I also believe that being religious is a personal choice.  Because you believe in a religion, you should not force others to believe it too, and let people do their own choice.  And this is also applicable to non religious people.  I think, people should be free to believe or not believe in the religion of their choice, as long as this involve not hurting anybody (including yourself).

 

clinical research studies

I agree. I think religion is personal and should be kept out of laws and politics and classrooms. And should not be used to make laws and political decisions. If we are to truly have freedom of religion in this country then people need to start staying out of each other business and let them make their own decisions. The day we force religion into laws and classrooms is the day we just shoved a massive dagger into the first amendment.

Personal responsibility should be more encouraged and people should stop using religion as an excuse or scapegoat for their mistakes/problems. What would our country be like if everyone was forced to follow one religion? Is that what our forefathers wanted when they were laying down the groundwork for our country? And please don't bible thump on me, I judge people on their actions not their knowledge of scripture and their personal interpretations of it with how they think other people should act. Practice what you preach.

Originally posted by Briansho

Originally posted by lab0rat

I am not a religious person myself.  This is a personal choice.  However, I do believe there are good things about being religious.  I think religion can give people more faith in life, especially when things are not going well.  Religion can offer support in life.  But I also believe that being religious is a personal choice.  Because you believe in a religion, you should not force others to believe it too, and let people do their own choice.  And this is also applicable to non religious people.  I think, people should be free to believe or not believe in the religion of their choice, as long as this involve not hurting anybody (including yourself).

 

clinical research studies

 

I agree. I think religion is personal and should be kept out of laws and politics and classrooms. And should not be used to make laws and political decisions. If we are to truly have freedom of religion in this country then people need to start staying out of each other business and let them make their own decisions. The day we force religion into laws and classrooms is the day we just shoved a massive dagger into the first amendment.

Personal responsibility should be more encouraged and people should stop using religion as an excuse or scapegoat for their mistakes/problems. What would our country be like if everyone was forced to follow one religion? Is that what our forefathers wanted when they were laying down the groundwork for our country? And please don't bible thump on me, I judge people on their actions not their knowledge of scripture and their personal interpretations of it with how they think other people should act. Practice what you preach.

What is your standard of right and wrong? How do you decide what is good and what is not good?

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by Briansho

Originally posted by lab0rat

I am not a religious person myself.  This is a personal choice.  However, I do believe there are good things about being religious.  I think religion can give people more faith in life, especially when things are not going well.  Religion can offer support in life.  But I also believe that being religious is a personal choice.  Because you believe in a religion, you should not force others to believe it too, and let people do their own choice.  And this is also applicable to non religious people.  I think, people should be free to believe or not believe in the religion of their choice, as long as this involve not hurting anybody (including yourself).

 

clinical research studies

 

I agree. I think religion is personal and should be kept out of laws and politics and classrooms. And should not be used to make laws and political decisions. If we are to truly have freedom of religion in this country then people need to start staying out of each other business and let them make their own decisions. The day we force religion into laws and classrooms is the day we just shoved a massive dagger into the first amendment.

Personal responsibility should be more encouraged and people should stop using religion as an excuse or scapegoat for their mistakes/problems. What would our country be like if everyone was forced to follow one religion? Is that what our forefathers wanted when they were laying down the groundwork for our country? And please don't bible thump on me, I judge people on their actions not their knowledge of scripture and their personal interpretations of it with how they think other people should act. Practice what you preach.

 

What is your standard of right and wrong? How do you decide what is good and what is not good?

I'll go with Ron Paul on this one. "People have a right in a free country to make important decisions on their own lives. If they want to make mistakes they can, just don't come running to the Govt to be bailed out or taken care of if they get sick. I believe in freedom of choice in all that we do as long as the individual never hurts anybody else."

Originally posted by Fishermage

I never said that Christianity was the source for all that is good in the world, but if you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I started out by saying IF we go by the reasoning I was following, then everything good that any Christian has ever done anywhere is the product of Christianity.

Well then I must appologising for believing you were so stupid as to beleive that all good including all science was due to Christ.

It may or may not be the case, but I was giving my opponent his argument and taking that bad argument to its logical conclusion.

My pont is that religion has nothing to do with whether people are good and bad. In fact, that's just what Christianity says.

I agree.

Anyway, your parade of horribles is just that -- a parade of horribles, still arguing with the same weak argument, forgetting that the very scientific method comes from Islam and was codified and perfected by Christians. If science is good, then you have Christ to thank for it.

Oh, hang on a minute... "If science is good, then you have Christ to thank for it.", erm. Didn't you claim not to say this near the top of this post...

It was in the Christian world that modern science arose, so while you may want to continue with your parade of horribles, of course leaving out that the entire story of the advancement of science occurs WITHIN the Church.

Well if you need the whole story that's more than I imagine most will be bothered to read. Lets just have...

Islam maintained (as I think we agreed above) pre-roman science as romans had killed off most of it in Europe and the bits they kept, fell into the dark ages when rome was repeatly sacked, and the western empire simply fizzled out. The very little that remained was indeed kept by the church, not surprising as they were pretty much the only ones who could read, and the monks had more time for it .. not a bad life quiet contemplation and study :) Then with the development of the printing press (yep a good one for europe), the centre of science crossed the Mediterranean as european text was easier to print, hence muslim world science emptied into europe and the rest, as they say was history.

Are we thanking Islam for our modern science, or do we only give ribbons to the guy currently at the front... yes I say currently. History is not over, times not finished, empires do rise and fall (ask rome). So who knows what will happen next.

Personaly I'd like to hope we can build a happy civilisation were it doesnt matter which religion you are, I hoped we could get there in the course of these posts, but I've noted that 'Christianity is the only truth', has been stated all too often. No wonder other posters are throwing mud.

And please to imply someone is a leftist-marxist just because they question the validity of any religions claims... what next, witch hunts?

Sorry, by the way, that you completely misundestood my post. I reread it however and I was quite clear in what I was doing.

Not so sure that I did (given above)

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by Briansho

Originally posted by lab0rat

I am not a religious person myself.  This is a personal choice.  However, I do believe there are good things about being religious.  I think religion can give people more faith in life, especially when things are not going well.  Religion can offer support in life.  But I also believe that being religious is a personal choice.  Because you believe in a religion, you should not force others to believe it too, and let people do their own choice.  And this is also applicable to non religious people.  I think, people should be free to believe or not believe in the religion of their choice, as long as this involve not hurting anybody (including yourself).

 

clinical research studies

 

I agree. I think religion is personal and should be kept out of laws and politics and classrooms. And should not be used to make laws and political decisions. If we are to truly have freedom of religion in this country then people need to start staying out of each other business and let them make their own decisions. The day we force religion into laws and classrooms is the day we just shoved a massive dagger into the first amendment.

Personal responsibility should be more encouraged and people should stop using religion as an excuse or scapegoat for their mistakes/problems. What would our country be like if everyone was forced to follow one religion? Is that what our forefathers wanted when they were laying down the groundwork for our country? And please don't bible thump on me, I judge people on their actions not their knowledge of scripture and their personal interpretations of it with how they think other people should act. Practice what you preach.

 

What is your standard of right and wrong? How do you decide what is good and what is not good?

There are no real wrongs or rights, though, Fishermage.  There are personal wrongs and rights, and they come from a variety of reasons.  Religion is of course, the main one, but personal experiences can help shape that as well.

Take myself, for instance.  Being an agnostic, I still have a moral code which adheres to that which is logical (mostly).  As such, about the only true wrong to me is the harming of another person without a veritable cause.  This is about as close to instinct as it can get, though not completely, as I added in the veritable cause there, meaning any cause which seems worth it, such as defending yourself against someone trying to harm you.  In a case like that, it is far better to kill before being killed.

Beyond that, I have few moral restrictions, as again, if it doesn't harm another directly, I don't do it.  I won't say I am innocent of causing anyone grief, but then, it is hard to live in a world and not somehow cause problems, especially with the diversity of beliefs out there. 

You have to remember, just because you believe in wrong or right under strict guidelines, you are still not the moral authority.  No human has that capability.

What is right and what is wrong...

It is true that what is right to one can be wrong to the other... However, for the basic values, in general, I think that  we can decide of what is good or wrong by considering what we would not like other people to do to us (offend, cheat, hurt, kill, etc) and not intentionally do it to the others.  Now, i do say intentionally because, sometimes, we will hurt or offend someone, without even knowing, or by accident.  But if you become aware of it, you can rectify yourself and learn from those experiences.  

Also, I think we need to be open-minded.  I think not killing, not hurting, no stealing, etc are the base of what we would call a society, where a group of people live together in peace.  However, each person have on top of those main values, their own sets of values. I think that`s when it can get touchy and complicated, but we should remain open-minded, find compromises if needed, or just accept the others as they are and keep in mind questions about the main values : Would you want someone to hurt you because you prefered one religion over another, or because you were green and not pink.

Lifesbrink and lab0rat..... well said.

Originally posted by ianonmmorpg

Originally posted by Fishermage

I never said that Christianity was the source for all that is good in the world, but if you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I started out by saying IF we go by the reasoning I was following, then everything good that any Christian has ever done anywhere is the product of Christianity.

Well then I must appologising for believing you were so stupid as to beleive that all good including all science was due to Christ.

It may or may not be the case, but I was giving my opponent his argument and taking that bad argument to its logical conclusion.

My pont is that religion has nothing to do with whether people are good and bad. In fact, that's just what Christianity says.

I agree.

Anyway, your parade of horribles is just that -- a parade of horribles, still arguing with the same weak argument, forgetting that the very scientific method comes from Islam and was codified and perfected by Christians. If science is good, then you have Christ to thank for it.

Oh, hang on a minute... "If science is good, then you have Christ to thank for it.", erm. Didn't you claim not to say this near the top of this post...

It was in the Christian world that modern science arose, so while you may want to continue with your parade of horribles, of course leaving out that the entire story of the advancement of science occurs WITHIN the Church.

Well if you need the whole story that's more than I imagine most will be bothered to read. Lets just have...

Islam maintained (as I think we agreed above) pre-roman science as romans had killed off most of it in Europe and the bits they kept, fell into the dark ages when rome was repeatly sacked, and the western empire simply fizzled out. The very little that remained was indeed kept by the church, not surprising as they were pretty much the only ones who could read, and the monks had more time for it .. not a bad life quiet contemplation and study :) Then with the development of the printing press (yep a good one for europe), the centre of science crossed the Mediterranean as european text was easier to print, hence muslim world science emptied into europe and the rest, as they say was history.

Are we thanking Islam for our modern science, or do we only give ribbons to the guy currently at the front... yes I say currently. History is not over, times not finished, empires do rise and fall (ask rome). So who knows what will happen next.

Personaly I'd like to hope we can build a happy civilisation were it doesnt matter which religion you are, I hoped we could get there in the course of these posts, but I've noted that 'Christianity is the only truth', has been stated all too often. No wonder other posters are throwing mud.

And please to imply someone is a leftist-marxist just because they question the validity of any religions claims... what next, witch hunts?

Sorry, by the way, that you completely misundestood my post. I reread it however and I was quite clear in what I was doing.

Not so sure that I did (given above)

Nothing you said disproves anything I said. The fact that Islam and other things have helped all that we hold dear to come about is a good, even great thing, but it in  no way disproves all of it was also due to Christianity.

I am still not saying that ONLY Christianity made things better, and no other philosophies did or do. The fact is that everything we love about today, science, freedom, human equality, individual human rights, civil rights, all of it -- we have Christianity to thank. Do we have others to thank as well? Of course, but that in no way diminishes the hand Christianity had in bringing these things forward.

Originally posted by lifesbrink

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by Briansho

Originally posted by lab0rat

I am not a religious person myself.  This is a personal choice.  However, I do believe there are good things about being religious.  I think religion can give people more faith in life, especially when things are not going well.  Religion can offer support in life.  But I also believe that being religious is a personal choice.  Because you believe in a religion, you should not force others to believe it too, and let people do their own choice.  And this is also applicable to non religious people.  I think, people should be free to believe or not believe in the religion of their choice, as long as this involve not hurting anybody (including yourself).

 

clinical research studies

 

I agree. I think religion is personal and should be kept out of laws and politics and classrooms. And should not be used to make laws and political decisions. If we are to truly have freedom of religion in this country then people need to start staying out of each other business and let them make their own decisions. The day we force religion into laws and classrooms is the day we just shoved a massive dagger into the first amendment.

Personal responsibility should be more encouraged and people should stop using religion as an excuse or scapegoat for their mistakes/problems. What would our country be like if everyone was forced to follow one religion? Is that what our forefathers wanted when they were laying down the groundwork for our country? And please don't bible thump on me, I judge people on their actions not their knowledge of scripture and their personal interpretations of it with how they think other people should act. Practice what you preach.

 

What is your standard of right and wrong? How do you decide what is good and what is not good?

 

There are no real wrongs or rights, though, Fishermage.  There are personal wrongs and rights, and they come from a variety of reasons.  Religion is of course, the main one, but personal experiences can help shape that as well.

Take myself, for instance.  Being an agnostic, I still have a moral code which adheres to that which is logical (mostly).  As such, about the only true wrong to me is the harming of another person without a veritable cause.  This is about as close to instinct as it can get, though not completely, as I added in the veritable cause there, meaning any cause which seems worth it, such as defending yourself against someone trying to harm you.  In a case like that, it is far better to kill before being killed.

Beyond that, I have few moral restrictions, as again, if it doesn't harm another directly, I don't do it.  I won't say I am innocent of causing anyone grief, but then, it is hard to live in a world and not somehow cause problems, especially with the diversity of beliefs out there. 

You have to remember, just because you believe in wrong or right under strict guidelines, you are still not the moral authority.  No human has that capability.

If there are no real rights or wrongs, then your statement can not be right nor wrong, and therefore you are making the contradictory claim that at least one thing is right, that being that nothing is right.

That is what is known as an absurd position, logically speaking.

Originally posted by lab0rat

What is right and what is wrong...

It is true that what is right to one can be wrong to the other... However, for the basic values, in general, I think that  we can decide of what is good or wrong by considering what we would not like other people to do to us (offend, cheat, hurt, kill, etc) and not intentionally do it to the others.  Now, i do say intentionally because, sometimes, we will hurt or offend someone, without even knowing, or by accident.  But if you become aware of it, you can rectify yourself and learn from those experiences.  

Also, I think we need to be open-minded.  I think not killing, not hurting, no stealing, etc are the base of what we would call a society, where a group of people live together in peace.  However, each person have on top of those main values, their own sets of values. I think that`s when it can get touchy and complicated, but we should remain open-minded, find compromises if needed, or just accept the others as they are and keep in mind questions about the main values : Would you want someone to hurt you because you prefered one religion over another, or because you were green and not pink.

very well said.

Now, are you claiming that there is a universal or near-universal ethic pretty much built into man? Whether by God or by something inherent in his nature (I would say both, btw).?

I am not claiming anything, but i do  stand to my own values, which are to do what I think is right and to let people do what they think is right too, as long as that will not interfere with my life... I do not really give a dam about what other people religion is, if it makes them happy, and as long as they are not trying to impose it to myself, or to anybody else.  I don't see why anybody would criticize my choice or my values, as they are pretty harmless... Nevertheless, some people seem  to get offended by my opinions.... or seem to see them as an attack to their believes...

Originally posted by lab0rat

I am not claiming anything, but i do  stand to my own values, which are to do what I think is right and to let people do what they think is right too, as long as that will not interfere with my life... I do not really give a dam about what other people religion is, if it makes them happy, and as long as they are not trying to impose it to myself, or to anybody else.  I don't see why anybody would criticize my choice or my values, as they are pretty harmless... Nevertheless, some people seem  to get offended by my opinions.... or seem to see them as an attack to their believes...

Well I'm certainly not criticizing your values, they sound almost the same as my own.

My point is why do you think your way is right, even for you? I'm more curious as to how you derive your beliefs.

This thread failed so hard from the start.

Religion isn't flawed because god created man flawed and so on. Why even discuss the possibility of that when there is no evidence at all of the existence of any god?

And don't come saying there is no need for proof or that god hides his existence, because if any god existed the world would undeniably be observably different (if you want me to elaborate, please ask).

Originally posted by sandolainen

This thread failed so hard from the start.

Religion isn't flawed because god created man flawed and so on. Why even discuss the possibility of that when there is no evidence at all of the existence of any god?

And don't come saying there is no need for proof or that god hides his existence, because if any god existed the world would undeniably be observably different (if you want me to elaborate, please ask).

God is like Akuma You have to unlock him and you have to discover how to unlock him first before you have any experiences with him.

Originally posted by Fishermage

If there are no real rights or wrongs, then your statement can not be right nor wrong, and therefore you are making the contradictory claim that at least one thing is right, that being that nothing is right.

That is what is known as an absurd position, logically speaking.

That statement would only be true if we were referring to right and wrong in logical terms, but I think we both know that I was referring to moral terms.  Either that, or you are trying to force it out of me.  I admit, I likely should have been clarifying and clear in the original post, however, I would have thought as the conversation was revolving around morals, that you and anyone else reading would simply carry on reading it as a moral argument.

Originally posted by Fishermage
... I am still not saying that ONLY Christianity made things better, and no other philosophies did or do. The fact is that everything we love about today, science, freedom, human equality, individual human rights, civil rights, all of it -- we have Christianity to thank. Do we have others to thank as well? Of course, but that in no way diminishes the hand Christianity had in bringing these things forward.

Very well then let us assume that you (as do I) believe that a great many peoples belonging to a great many faiths (including agnostsics and atheists) have built the world in which we now live, including a rich history of cruelty and fine works. My original question therefore would be....

What (if anything) can distinguish one faith as being more valid than another?