Originally posted by reggie

Not paying attention to subscribtion numbers even though for a company subscribtion numbers over a time period means income/profit and therefor could mean success....

When i look at warhammer. All the 'awesome' features they put into this game and arent really being used at all then from my point of view even though subscribtions are enough id say the game is a big failure and i cant see it last for many years to come.

I mean check out its pve. Pve is an empty deserted world, except maybe in tier4 which i never played so far since i see no reason to do so. Its much touted PQ system also stays unused.

Game world design being very wrong. Game lakes being unused all over. Most rvr and class mechanics are disliked. Realm balance issues all over the place thanx to only 2 realms. No long lasting appeal thanx to shared zones and mirrored classes.

The only thing that people do in warhammer is run around bo's and keeps and near wc's and do scenario's. My personal opinion is its not even worth the subscribtion price it asks since there's simply to little to do to call it an mmorpg. MMO maybe but definately not an MMORPG.

Personally i see very little possibility of warhammer lasting very long.  It might still be a success now but im guessing the near future will see it as a big flop.
Game design simply cannot handle people leaving and accelerates the game into a downward spiral in no time.

 

 

 

 

warhammer online can only get better with time..at least mythic are honest about their failings. I still think warhammer is more fun to play than wow, so war gets my sub.

I am a huge fan of the A Tale in the Desert (ATITD) game.  I have played in all 4 tellings to one degree or another.  The large diversity of stuff to do, the community, and events.  I sometimes spend 8 hours in a single day playing and while exahusted, I am satisfied and proud of what I have accomplished.

ATITD is a niche game though.  It is not for ever one and for some people is a little daunting at first.  ATITD has a subscription cost of $13.95  and usually has a subscribing base of 1500-2000 players.  ATITD makes very small profit but it has a super dedicated group of developers and workers.  It over time has proven that a game can be succesful even without huge numbers of WOW.

As an example of the comunity of the game.  We have a player who spends almost all her time doing the landscaping of Egypt (ATITD).  Recently it came to light she has some health problems and needs a special dog that helps care for her.  To the tune of $15,000.00.  Teppy, the head developer, introduced to the game a small pet Otter.  The lady doing all the landscaping plays a chracter named Otter.  For $50 you could purchase a small pet otter, with all the proceeds going to Otter, herself for the dog she needs.  They run around were you place them and do little cute movements.  In 10 days ATITD players had already raised around $8000 dollars.

I think more than just subscriber numbers and net profit sometimes are not the only deciding factors in wether a game is a success.

A quarter of a million is successful and the game can get along on that but however...  one million is HIGHLY successful and such a MMO would get plenty of attention from the devs resulting in frequent updates, patches and expansion packs.

I voted for the half a million or less option because thats quite enough for the game to be considered successful.

But if a MMO had say 800k and lost half of that in a couple of months then I would not be considering that game to be successful.

Originally posted by AmazingAvery

A lot of people take comfort in knowing that many thousands or millions of other people are playing the same game as themselves. Some people are like sheep and will continue to play a game they might not fully enjoy knowing that there is safety in numbers.

That is just something people say to justify why their choice of mmo doesn't attract more people.  Safety in numbers?  Safe from what?  The whole line of logic that people play game they don't enjoy and do so in masses is nothing more than practicing self deception. 

Why everyone works so hard to ignore the obvious is beyond me.  People play games they enjoy and quit games they don't.  *shrug*

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by AmazingAvery

A lot of people take comfort in knowing that many thousands or millions of other people are playing the same game as themselves. Some people are like sheep and will continue to play a game they might not fully enjoy knowing that there is safety in numbers.

 

That is just something people say to justify why their choice of mmo doesn't attract more people.  Safety in numbers?  Safe from what?  The whole line of logic that people play game they don't enjoy and do so in masses is nothing more than practicing self deception. 

Why everyone works so hard to ignore the obvious is beyond me.  People play games they enjoy and quit games they don't.  *shrug*

its called mob mentality.. and its a part of human nature..

 As I see it. MMOG's are a business. As long as the business is afloat then it's a success because it gives you the oppertunity to expand.

Originally posted by Damitman
Originally posted by Kilmar
The wow crowd doesnt belong to the rest of the mmo market, since they dont seem to try other MMOs.
 

Well said

 Originally Posted by Maginus00

Well I haven't met anyone in WoW that hasn't tried other MMO's so not sure where your getting your facts. Everyone I know on WoW on a some what personal level has tried several MMO's.

Well Maginus00 I know atleast 4 people who just play WOW and no other mmorpg ( my brother, cousin, and 2 family friends) because they are afraid or dont want to try anything else. Thier excuse is because they either met or know to many people on WOW or they spent so much time on the game they dont want to try anything else because they will feel like they wasted their time on WOW. Alot of WOW players are like that in the sense that they dont want to leave because one or the other.

First quit hateing on wow you must  because it brought us great things like leroy jenkins . On the other hand i find the general public of wow to be a younger crowd. (god im getting old)

As to the topic of this question most of what i have read i agree with.

1. Are your players happy?

2. As a developer set a goal be it 100k or 10mil subs dont over hype a 2d mmo in a 3d era.

3. If you make your money back from development your golden this includes all expansions.

4. Are your players happy? Did i mention this?

That is pretty much it if i am happy with the game im going to shell out $15 a month till the cows come home end of story. That is probaly the number 1 thing with WOW the players are happy and that is what matters and as long as they keep cranking out expansions espicaly if there like the last one Litch King rocks btw.

Oh yea if any developers actualy read this put more testing into your beta operations for the love of pete. Nothing turns me off a game faster then haveing to pay to beta test your game something you should have done already.

And yes this is my first post since i joined the fourms 4 or so years ago.

Erm, this isn't exactly rocket science. When Total Revenue = or exceeds Total Cost, the game is a success. This is because the company can afford to keep the game running, which is the whole purpose of creating one.

How many subscribers it takes to turn a profit depends upon what the total costs is for the company (ie. loans, salaries, capital costs, opportunity costs).

Originally posted by Damitman

Originally posted by Kilmar

The wow crowd doesnt belong to the rest of the mmo market, since they dont seem to try other MMOs.

 

Well said

You sure? Well I am pretty sure that ALOT of WoW players have atleast tried 1 MMo after playing WOW, in hope that they will find a better game. Did they find it? Did you find it? Do i find it?

I, myself I didn't find it and it seems that neither them.

So if you DID found a better game then WoW, name it. Till then, the WoW crowd are a part of MMO players and not just 'WoW MMo Players = WMP".

On topic: I voted first option!

Originally posted by Jefferson81

A quarter of a million is successful and the game can get along on that but however...  one million is HIGHLY successful and such a MMO would get plenty of attention from the devs resulting in frequent updates, patches and expansion packs.

I voted for the half a million or less option because thats quite enough for the game to be considered successful.

But if a MMO had say 800k and lost half of that in a couple of months then I would not be considering that game to be successful.

 

Even with loseing more than half its subs the game could still be a success that number only shows it didn't meet what eveyone that bought into expected it to be.

Now if a game like say Shadowbane went from about 20+ server to just a few in 3-4 months then its a failure in my opinion.

maybe i am of a different breed of wow players but because of wow i have tried...CoX, Lort, Eve, War, countless free MMOs, ext.. WoW opened my eyes to the MMO community so i have no problem with wow.

Originally posted by SXRchosen1

Originally posted by Damitman

Originally posted by Kilmar

The wow crowd doesnt belong to the rest of the mmo market, since they dont seem to try other MMOs.

 

Well said

 

very good post, alot of the WoW player base get so involved in the game, were nothing else matters(this also includes life)

I had never played an mmo before WoW. Today I have played Lotro (and I liked it), EvE (liked that one too) and Warhammer (a dissapointment for me tho).
 

Now I really looking forward to SWTOR!!

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Erm, this isn't exactly rocket science. When Total Revenue = or exceeds Total Cost, the game is a success. This is because the company can afford to keep the game running, which is the whole purpose of creating one.

How many subscribers it takes to turn a profit depends upon what the total costs is for the company (ie. loans, salaries, capital costs, opportunity costs).

This is correct. I think part of the confusion comes from different standards of success though.

- Business

- Personal

- Artistic (From a Game design, graphics, etc. standpoint)

I think all are important and very few MMOs hit all 3. From a business perspective, it IS all about numbers. If you are turning a profit, it's a success. The degree to which you are turning a profit is directly proportional to the degree in which you are considered a success, and the ability your company gets to lure in future investors. The problem with this standard is that is important to pretty much everyone involved except for the people actually playing the game (the subscribers).

From a personal standpoint, If your players aren't happy, and you aren't bringing in enough revenue to make / keep them happy in the future, your game has failed or is failing (from this standpoint). Even if it's a business success, the likelyhood of you maintaining those numbers is low, and you should probably start thinking towards your next project (and learning from your mistakes). The problem with this standard, is that it's very difficult to track, and is generally only important to the subscribers and the developers who are pationate, but not too stuborn to see their flaws. The investors (who are required to get most / all of these games off the ground) could care less.

From an artistic point of view, a game is successful if they propell the genre forward in some fasion, or live up to the current standard set by MMOs before it. This is basically where a lot of the hype comes from, and while it is largely undermined by the investors and the players, is basically a guage for how a game is percieved within it's own community (the game developer's community). I put this one last, because most MMOs have enough trouble meeting the first 2 standards, this 3rd standard rarely gets discussed on any large scale.

- On a side note, I think it's clear that the MMO genre is struggling into the future.  I do not think it will dissappear (especially w/ another Blizzard MMO in the works), but with failure after failure being released of the games we look forward to the most, things don't look good. Even with games like LotRO which did a remarkable job, we are seeing a decline in interest (and a diffusion of population amongst more and more MMOs). While many people don't like the idea of 'popular = good', MMOs are the 1 genre in which you need a lot of players for it to be fun. You cannot really enjoy an MMO if there's almost no one playing, and due to their size, the amount of players needed to achieve the feeling of 'popular' seems to be steadily increasing.

Originally posted by Damitman

Originally posted by Kilmar

The wow crowd doesnt belong to the rest of the mmo market, since they dont seem to try other MMOs.

 

Well said

I call total and complete bull crap.   I have played and completely enjoyed wow...and have also played  (in no particular order) UO, EQ2, COH/COV, AO, EvE, Earth and Beyond, Horizons, 2moons, Archlord, Runes of Magic, Rohan, Lineage II and I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple.   This is the  case with every person I know who enjoys the game.   My friends and I have all enjoyed playing different games.   The difference with WoW is it is the one game we return to when we get bored with the others.

Originally posted by cooms

maybe i am of a different breed of wow players but because of wow i have tried...CoX, Lort, Eve, War, countless free MMOs, ext.. WoW opened my eyes to the MMO community so i have no problem with wow.

Thankyou... You have restored my faith in humanity (and I agree).

I think that as long as there is a profit gained while maintaining and updating the MMO then it is a success. WOW is like Wal-Mart. I don't see any company popping up and matching the profit and volume of Wal-Mart but that doesn't mean that your store has failed. If you find your niche where enough people like your product to sustain it then there is no need for your comparative value in relation to any of the much larger competition. WOW also has a natural advantage as its really dug in. Getting in at the right time and setting up gave it the edge where the issue isn't is a new MMO good but if is the new MMO able to draw people away from WOW.

Originally posted by Netspook

Originally posted by skeaser

If subscription fee income > operating costs then game is success!

 

No, it's no that simple.

If they can barely earn a little more than the costs, then it's a horrible investment. If I ran such a company, I'd fear bankrupsy every day. I would not consider that a success.

I would argue this: if you see your profits diminish to 0, pull the cord.  Up until that point, if your income is greater than your overall expenses, then its a success.  So many games these days (including MMOs) just don't ever turn a profit.  I wouldn't hope for big $$$, just a profit.

 Around 100k should be enough.

To be financially successful, it's whatever number is necessary for them to break even and then make a profit, but for me, the true indication of success is a game that can retain at least 90% of it's peak subscription numbers or even grow beyond that.

A game that can at least retain that many of it's target audience, let alone the fringes, is a real winner in my book.  Take EverQuest for example.  We know from SOE that EQ had more than 2 million people try their game and yet even at it's peak, it never retained more than 450,000 subscriptions.  That is less than a 50% retention rate and in my book, those are dismal results.  In business terms, that is horrifying to lose so many potential customers.  The game does make money, but you have to be very disappointed to lose all of that potential revenue, massive revenue at that.