Originally posted by imbant

Originally posted by Gorilla

Sandbox needs sand, bucket spade, maybe a toy digger truck. From what I am hearing all this has is dog poo. From the leaks it sounds like they could have called it Dark and Light 2. Hard to tell seems like even beta testers only get to play 10 minutes a day (which aparently is about how long the servers are up)

Edit; Oh and there are already guilds bragging about sploits that are putting them firmly on top.

 

"apparently" they are patching at least once a day...maybe something to do with why servers are down a lot?  ive actually heard they are up for hours at a time consistently and brought down to patch...not cause it crashes.

 

 keep making stuff up...only makes the game look that much more appealing when people see others desperately trying to put the game down

Hahaha they are not patching every day and even if they did should it take 22 hours of the day to do so?

As I say I am also hearing it is full of macroers and exploiters getting a 'leg up', nothing like a level playing feel in a game that is pvp centric eh?

Originally posted by sn0wblind00

Sandbox is what most people expect going into the game.  Many things are not customizable, espscially cities.  Skills feel like eq leveling - i.e. not every branch is open from the start.  Nothing like grinding lesser and greater magic before I can do anything worthwhile! 

Let me go through your points.

1. Well considering there are only about 5 mobs per outlier continents, with half being npcs of player races, it doesn't take long to figure out.  If you don't know, there isn't any risk.  Just run around, take a few hits, and get out.  The only way you'll die is if you get caught on terrain or run in a straight line.

2. The world is big, yes.  Empty as well.  Yes, you might find a small cave or cravess in middle of nowhere...but there is no point to it.  Assuming it has mobs at all, they are the same mobs as the rest of the areas and give nothing unique.  In a pvp game where resources matter, most people will not bother running to the middle of nowhere when they can get the same things close-to-home.

3. There is only one beneficial, not profitable, type of crafting right now. 

4. Player-driven content?

5. Guild politics occurs in any game.

6. It is nice you can hide around corners, like many games, but not all.  You can also crouch-sneak as well.  Efforts are pretty much worthless if they have a few stam potions and you don't, and they decide to run.

7. Exploring is rewarding? as someone who loves exploring and has mapped 3/4ths of the world so far, I disagree.  Everything feels 'copied and pasted' 100 times over. 

Not trying to be a skeptic, but those trying to sell the game with euphemism should be put back down to reality before people waste money.

Quoted for truth. 

Originally posted by Zodan

Here is a bit more simple explanation of Darkfall.

In other words it's what you make it to be with toys inside.

No toys , no sand, and even the box needs work before it will hold sand. Get the picture?

Originally posted by xzyax 

Universal banking:

I don't know... it just seems that universal banking creates more problems than it solves. 

Who is going to be traveling cross-country with a full load of supplies, resources, loot?   Nobody.  Everyone will just dump everything they want moved in the closest bank, then travel to the destination and remove the goods from the closest bank at the destination point.

For me anyway it seems that the process of having to get the loot back to your hometown to keep it safe would help be a self-limiting aspect for gankers.   Once they are full of loot themselves... they will have to safely navigate back to their own bank in order to make sure their bounty is safe.

The farther you wander from your hometown the more risk involved in getting back safely with your loot... as it should be.  Just seems so contrived to kill someone at an enemy city, loot him, and then bank his stuff at his own city.  Even if he does manage to revive in time and gather some forces to kill the ganker... won't matter... the ganker has already banked the loot.  That just seems really backwards to me. 

I agree about universal banking, it should be removed

 

Gated Skill Progression:

Not much to counter here... as we agree.  It just seems that the more we learn how each of the skills interact with each other the more it reads like a laundry list of restrictions.  For me anyway it doesn't seem very different from normal levels.

Want to use certain magic?  Well start leveling this skill to x... then the next skill to y... then the next skill to z.  Then you can use it.

Want to wear certain armor?  Same thing.

Want to use certain weapons?  Same thing.

Want to craft certain items?  Same thing.

And on it goes.   So how is that drastically different than regular levels again?

 

Where have you read this? From what I've heard there isn't any prerequisite to wield certain weapons, or wear certain armors.

 

What was wrong with the idea of being able to use anything and everything from day one... but you get better at the things you do and use on a more regular basis?  The higher your skill rises the more damage you do, less fizzles, less misses... etc.

 

Rare or exceptional skills can still be used, but they would be the exception, not the rule.  The trainers for these rare or exceptional skills could be hidden away in remote places scattered through-out the world.  Giving reason to travel, explore, and wander. 

You want to be able to cast a certain powerful spell?  To do so you will need to find and perhaps defeat in a duel a secret trainer hidden in some far off cave on an island.

You want to wield a certain powerful weapon or wear a rare armor?  You will need to find the trainer for that skill buried in some dungeon at the heart of an area hotly contested by other clans.  Or, perhaps the trainer will appear in your clan city once you have successfully defeated another clan's city.

 

Anyway you probably get the idea.  There are numerous ways to allow for certain skills to be "saved" until a player progresses farther into the game without resorting to having to grind up skills that they don't really want but are necessary to "unlock" skills farther up the chain.  To me that is no different than grinding regular levels.  Both very boring.

 

Heh... this ended up being much longer than I originally intended... oh well... perhaps some will make it through the wall of text.  I'm sure I have plenty of errors in there.... I'll look it over again later and edit some mistakes. 

 

 

What I hope they will do about skills is follow the example of UO, start with a few, selected by you in the creation of the character, skills, that have a rating of 30, or any other, so you'll have a decent start.

everything you say is completely true.

part of the reason there have been so many more positive beta leaks about DF than negative is because as a sandbox PVP world, DF is actually pretty great.

almost all the negative leaks/reports are coming from people who obviously are not into the sandbox game style.

eg:

1) "empty world/hard to find mobs" -- mobs all over the map is a WOW/themepark thing. mobs live in communities in DF/sandboxes.

2) "not enough quests" -- themeparks are about quests, sandboxes aren't

3) "didn't know what to do/i only fought goblins" -- again themeparks hold your hand through their quest content, sandboxes create a world with interesting mechanics and player-createable content, and off you go.

DF is more like a fantasy version of EVE, than a sandbox version of WOW. DF and WOW are complete opposites, and if you love WOW, you probably won't like DF.

if on the other hand, you find WOW dull, repetitive and incredibly limited in almost every way (except grind potential), you just might love DF.

Originally posted by javac

DF is more like a fantasy version of EVE, than a sandbox version of WOW. DF and WOW are complete opposites, and if you love WOW, you probably won't like DF.

 

if on the other hand, you find WOW dull, repetitive and incredibly limited in almost every way (except grind potential), you just might love DF.

 

I Love WoW and I Love Eve, infact I subscribe to each of them, and a few others in my guild do too.

Because they are well polished, well done games :)

So they are not mutually exclusive to everyone /grin

and my comment on the OP:  Soundslike he's trying to preemptively respond to the posts that will be made here by a LOT of people who are ging to demand their money back because they just paid some greek dude 50 bucks for a server is down message and a login screen.

but what the heck, maybe i'll be wrong.  I highly, highly doubt it.  But if i am, I'll probably even give it a try, maybe 3 months along if resources one can trust say it's really all that.

Itch

Originally posted by itchmon

I Love WoW and I Love Eve, infact I subscribe to each of them, and a few others in my guild do too.

Because they are well polished, well done games :)

So they are not mutually exclusive to everyone /grin

heh.

i did say 'probably' and 'might'. ;-)

You just made this game seem amazing.

I hope it has all that.

Originally posted by Gorilla

Originally posted by Zodan

Here is a bit more simple explanation of Darkfall.

In other words it's what you make it to be with toys inside.

 

No toys , no sand, and even the box needs work before it will hold sand. Get the picture?

dude you don't get what a sandbox MMO is, give up.

"waaa i just started EVE and i can't train capital ships, EVE is not a sandbox!!!111" <- this is how ridiculous you and that other guy sound.

Originally posted by imbant

Very simple.  Darkfall is a ridiculously amazing sandbox game, but it is very very very "sandboxy".  Im not saying that you are less of a gamer if you like themepark/linear/handholding/whatever type mmos.  I am simply saying that if you do not like sandbox games, do not think you will play Darkfall and think that "oh maybe it will have some non sandbox elements"...it doesn't.

 

Now if you are the kind of gamer who....

• Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.
• Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.
• Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).
• Enjoys player driven content.
• Guild v Guild politics
• Realistic gameplay environments (having to scan the horizon when you turn a corner...actually being able to duck behind some ruble in a city when being chased then run up some stairs to avoid 10 people trying to kill you and being able to escape vs. having a big green name above your head and being locked on to magically).
• Likes exploring...oh did i mention that?  well DF exploration is that rewarding.
• And a ridiculous amount of sandbox elements i cant get into

.....then Darkfall is for you.

Just felt like sharing.  Also expecting lots of people on February 25th to be making posts like "omg this game sucks, i was totally trying to farm goblins and this guy like totally killed me and took away all the gold i had been there for 2 hours farming...huh why would i go bank it?"   and   "wtf am i suppose to do?"....

Possibly, but have you considered this. If you don't like Darkfall, it doesn't mean you don't like sandbox games?

Or, if you like sandbox games, you won't necessarily like Darkfall?

For example, you do realize a game can be a sandbox without PvP, right?

The problem is Darkfall does not meet the definition of a sandbox game.

An example sandbox game is Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In Elder Scrolls IV the NPCS have their own duties where they get up from bed, go to work, and the go home at night. You can start conversation with the NPCs and make them hate or like you.

From the beta video I saw, Darkfall is a world filled with a random lone mob that you kill. There are no NPCs that does their own routine. There are no NPCs you can talk to and form a relationship with.

---

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.
* Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.
* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).
* Enjoys player driven content.
* Guild v Guild politics
* Realistic gameplay environments (having to scan the horizon when you turn a corner...actually being able to duck behind some ruble in a city when being chased then run up some stairs to avoid 10 people trying to kill you and being able to escape vs. having a big green name above your head and being locked on to magically).
* Likes exploring...oh did i mention that? well DF exploration is that rewarding.
* And a ridiculous amount of sandbox elements i cant get into

---

Most of the stuff in your list does not have sandbox elements. This is a list of gameplay features that 99% of other MMORPGs have out there.

Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by itchmon

I Love WoW and I Love Eve, infact I subscribe to each of them, and a few others in my guild do too.

Because they are well polished, well done games :)

So they are not mutually exclusive to everyone /grin

heh.

 

i did say 'probably' and 'might'. ;-)

 

 

true true

And here is another amazing revelation: If you don't like beer - DO NOT BUY GUINESS.

Of course people who don't like sandbox games shouldn't buy it. Question is more if people who do should, there are difference between sandboxes and sandboxes.

People who like themeparks still don't like most of the games in the genre, just because you liked Everquest doesn't mean you like Wow, AoC or even EQ2. Same thing goes for sandboxes.

Originally posted by RZetlin

The problem is Darkfall does not meet the definition of a sandbox game.

An example sandbox game is Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In Elder Scrolls IV the NPCS have their own duties where they get up from bed, go to work, and the go home at night. You can start conversation with the NPCs and make them hate or like you.

From the beta video I saw, Darkfall is a world filled with a random lone mob that you kill. There are no NPCs that does their own routine. There are no NPCs you can talk to and form a relationship with.

 

---

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.
* Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.
* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).
* Enjoys player driven content.
* Guild v Guild politics
* Realistic gameplay environments (having to scan the horizon when you turn a corner...actually being able to duck behind some ruble in a city when being chased then run up some stairs to avoid 10 people trying to kill you and being able to escape vs. having a big green name above your head and being locked on to magically).
* Likes exploring...oh did i mention that? well DF exploration is that rewarding.
* And a ridiculous amount of sandbox elements i cant get into

---

 

Most of the stuff in your list does not have sandbox elements. This is a list of gameplay features that 99% of other MMORPGs have out there.

So by your definition, a Sandbox MMORPG is not driven by the PLAYERS themselves but by some NPC's mood?

Go play Oblivion.

Originally posted by RZetlin

The problem is Darkfall does not meet the definition of a sandbox game.

An example sandbox game is Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In Elder Scrolls IV the NPCS have their own duties where they get up from bed, go to work, and the go home at night. You can start conversation with the NPCs and make them hate or like you.

From the beta video I saw, Darkfall is a world filled with a random lone mob that you kill. There are no NPCs that does their own routine. There are no NPCs you can talk to and form a relationship with.

 

---

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.
* Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.
* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).
* Enjoys player driven content.
* Guild v Guild politics
* Realistic gameplay environments (having to scan the horizon when you turn a corner...actually being able to duck behind some ruble in a city when being chased then run up some stairs to avoid 10 people trying to kill you and being able to escape vs. having a big green name above your head and being locked on to magically).
* Likes exploring...oh did i mention that? well DF exploration is that rewarding.
* And a ridiculous amount of sandbox elements i cant get into

---

 

Most of the stuff in your list does not have sandbox elements. This is a list of gameplay features that 99% of other MMORPGs have out there.

Wrong.

A sandbox game is one without linear progression.

Most MMOs out there currently have levels with a set or non-linear progression of the character.

That also applies to the content the character has to go through to evolve his character.

Now take the example of world of warcraft.

As u enter a zone u will aquire quests, and those quests will direct u to the areas the closest to the hub u are currently in, in fact if u walk past the range of the quest hub the first mobs u will encounter will be mobs closest to ur level, if the quest hub is in ur range, and this goes on throughout the entire game with all the zones being divided into the level content they provide.

These zones are also geographically limited, most zones having few exit's to neighbouring zones, who in most cases (thou not all) provide content only one step removed from the content of the zone itself.

This does not lend itself well to exploration as u will quickly arrive outside of content intended for you. 

THAT is liniear progression and the OPPOSITE of a Sandbox MMO.

Now lets take a look at some of the points u claimed exists in 99% of MMO's and are NOT indicative of a Sandbox:

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.

This is a prime example of a non-linear progression, and also something that will NOT happen in almost 90% of the MMOs out there.

The game has content for higher progressed characters, and groups, but since its a sandbox that content can be found randomly around the game instead of placed in a successive order.

 * Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.

Again VERY indicative of a Sandbox style MMO. Favouring exploration to find the locations of interest in the map as opposed to following a streamlined linear progression structure.

* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).

Sexual innuendo aside (As I believe it was not intended as the point), the sheer amount of craftable items compared to the fact that one ends up loosing all ones worn and carried items by death, means a necesity to restock unforseen in perhaps any mmo, rivaled perhaps by UO, but not beat.

This is ofcourse the very pinnackle of a Sandbox element.

and so on and so on.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by RZetlin

The problem is Darkfall does not meet the definition of a sandbox game.

An example sandbox game is Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In Elder Scrolls IV the NPCS have their own duties where they get up from bed, go to work, and the go home at night. You can start conversation with the NPCs and make them hate or like you.

From the beta video I saw, Darkfall is a world filled with a random lone mob that you kill. There are no NPCs that does their own routine. There are no NPCs you can talk to and form a relationship with.

 

---

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.
* Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.
* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).
* Enjoys player driven content.
* Guild v Guild politics
* Realistic gameplay environments (having to scan the horizon when you turn a corner...actually being able to duck behind some ruble in a city when being chased then run up some stairs to avoid 10 people trying to kill you and being able to escape vs. having a big green name above your head and being locked on to magically).
* Likes exploring...oh did i mention that? well DF exploration is that rewarding.
* And a ridiculous amount of sandbox elements i cant get into

---

 

Most of the stuff in your list does not have sandbox elements. This is a list of gameplay features that 99% of other MMORPGs have out there.

 

Wrong.

A sandbox game is one without linear progression.

Most MMOs out there currently have levels with a set or non-linear progression of the character.

That also applies to the content the character has to go through to evolve his character.

Now take the example of world of warcraft.

As u enter a zone u will aquire quests, and those quests will direct u to the areas the closest to the hub u are currently in, in fact if u walk past the range of the quest hub the first mobs u will encounter will be mobs closest to ur level, if the quest hub is in ur range, and this goes on throughout the entire game with all the zones being divided into the level content they provide.

These zones are also geographically limited, most zones having few exit's to neighbouring zones, who in most cases (thou not all) provide content only one step removed from the content of the zone itself.

This does not lend itself well to exploration as u will quickly arrive outside of content intended for you. 

 

THAT is liniear progression and the OPPOSITE of a Sandbox MMO.

 

Now lets take a look at some of the points u claimed exists in 99% of MMO's and are NOT indicative of a Sandbox:

 

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.

 

This is a prime example of a non-linear progression, and also something that will NOT happen in almost 90% of the MMOs out there.

The game has content for higher progressed characters, and groups, but since its a sandbox that content can be found randomly around the game instead of placed in a successive order.

 

 * Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.

 

Again VERY indicative of a Sandbox style MMO. Favouring exploration to find the locations of interest in the map as opposed to following a streamlined linear progression structure.

 

* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).

Sexual innuendo aside (As I believe it was not intended as the point), the sheer amount of craftable items compared to the fact that one ends up loosing all ones worn and carried items by death, means a necesity to restock unforseen in perhaps any mmo, rivaled perhaps by UO, but not beat.

This is ofcourse the very pinnackle of a Sandbox element.

 

and so on and so on.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

The features listed in yellow, are not, IMO, sandbox features.

Sandbox games give you the ability to change the world.

Mobs spawning in random places doesn't do that at all. I don't see why you think that makes the game a "sandbox".

Exploration doesn't make a game a sandbox either. You can explore in even the most linear game. You simply skip the content and wander around.

Variety of craftable items is definitely not necessary for a sandbox game. Having a million craftable items would not make a game a sandbox, and a lack of any craftable items at all would not mean a game was not a sandbox.

IMO, sandbox features allow players to change the game world. LIke determining where a city will be built, ownership of areas, and things like that. SWG pre CU, EVE are good examples of sandboxes.

Originally posted by Valhera

Originally posted by RZetlin

The problem is Darkfall does not meet the definition of a sandbox game.

An example sandbox game is Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In Elder Scrolls IV the NPCS have their own duties where they get up from bed, go to work, and the go home at night. You can start conversation with the NPCs and make them hate or like you.

From the beta video I saw, Darkfall is a world filled with a random lone mob that you kill. There are no NPCs that does their own routine. There are no NPCs you can talk to and form a relationship with.

 

---

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.
* Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.
* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).
* Enjoys player driven content.
* Guild v Guild politics
* Realistic gameplay environments (having to scan the horizon when you turn a corner...actually being able to duck behind some ruble in a city when being chased then run up some stairs to avoid 10 people trying to kill you and being able to escape vs. having a big green name above your head and being locked on to magically).
* Likes exploring...oh did i mention that? well DF exploration is that rewarding.
* And a ridiculous amount of sandbox elements i cant get into

---

 

Most of the stuff in your list does not have sandbox elements. This is a list of gameplay features that 99% of other MMORPGs have out there.

 

So by your definition, a Sandbox MMORPG is not driven by the PLAYERS themselves but by some NPC's mood?

Go play Oblivion.

The term "sandbox" comes from single player games. GAmes like GTA and Oblivion. Of coruse they depend on NPC's, they aren't even multiplayer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_(video_games)

Sandbox mode

In a game with a sandbox mode, a player may turn off or ignore game objectives.[10] This can open up possibilities that were not intended by the game designer. A sandbox mode is an option in otherwise goal-oriented games, and should be distinguished from open-ended games with no objectives such as Sim City.[10]

A sandbox-like structure of gameplay is featured prominently in the Grand Theft Auto franchise.[10] Other games where players may ignore the game objectives and explore the world as a sandbox include Freelancer [11], Crackdown[9] the Elder Scrolls series, Postal² (but not the Apocalypse Weekend add-on, which is fully linear), Prototype, Hulk: Ultimate Destruction, recent Spider-Man games, inFamous, and the Pokémon video games. There is also a Sandbox mod for Battlefield 2 which allows players to freely build creations with in-game objects, or simply roam around in the maps.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by RZetlin

The problem is Darkfall does not meet the definition of a sandbox game.

An example sandbox game is Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In Elder Scrolls IV the NPCS have their own duties where they get up from bed, go to work, and the go home at night. You can start conversation with the NPCs and make them hate or like you.

From the beta video I saw, Darkfall is a world filled with a random lone mob that you kill. There are no NPCs that does their own routine. There are no NPCs you can talk to and form a relationship with.

 

---

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.
* Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.
* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).
* Enjoys player driven content.
* Guild v Guild politics
* Realistic gameplay environments (having to scan the horizon when you turn a corner...actually being able to duck behind some ruble in a city when being chased then run up some stairs to avoid 10 people trying to kill you and being able to escape vs. having a big green name above your head and being locked on to magically).
* Likes exploring...oh did i mention that? well DF exploration is that rewarding.
* And a ridiculous amount of sandbox elements i cant get into

---

 

Most of the stuff in your list does not have sandbox elements. This is a list of gameplay features that 99% of other MMORPGs have out there.

 

Wrong.

A sandbox game is one without linear progression.

Most MMOs out there currently have levels with a set or non-linear progression of the character.

That also applies to the content the character has to go through to evolve his character.

Now take the example of world of warcraft.

As u enter a zone u will aquire quests, and those quests will direct u to the areas the closest to the hub u are currently in, in fact if u walk past the range of the quest hub the first mobs u will encounter will be mobs closest to ur level, if the quest hub is in ur range, and this goes on throughout the entire game with all the zones being divided into the level content they provide.

These zones are also geographically limited, most zones having few exit's to neighbouring zones, who in most cases (thou not all) provide content only one step removed from the content of the zone itself.

This does not lend itself well to exploration as u will quickly arrive outside of content intended for you. 

 

THAT is liniear progression and the OPPOSITE of a Sandbox MMO.

 

Now lets take a look at some of the points u claimed exists in 99% of MMO's and are NOT indicative of a Sandbox:

 

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.

 

This is a prime example of a non-linear progression, and also something that will NOT happen in almost 90% of the MMOs out there.

The game has content for higher progressed characters, and groups, but since its a sandbox that content can be found randomly around the game instead of placed in a successive order.

 

 * Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.

 

Again VERY indicative of a Sandbox style MMO. Favouring exploration to find the locations of interest in the map as opposed to following a streamlined linear progression structure.

 

* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).

Sexual innuendo aside (As I believe it was not intended as the point), the sheer amount of craftable items compared to the fact that one ends up loosing all ones worn and carried items by death, means a necesity to restock unforseen in perhaps any mmo, rivaled perhaps by UO, but not beat.

This is ofcourse the very pinnackle of a Sandbox element.

 

and so on and so on.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

The features listed in yellow, are not, IMO, sandbox features.

Sandbox games give you the ability to change the world.

Mobs spawning in random places doesn't do that at all. I don't see why you think that makes the game a "sandbox".

Exploration doesn't make a game a sandbox either. You can explore in even the most linear game. You simply skip the content and wander around.

Variety of craftable items is definitely not necessary for a sandbox game. Having a million craftable items would not make a game a sandbox, and a lack of any craftable items at all would not mean a game was not a sandbox.

IMO, sandbox features allow players to change the game world. LIke determining where a city will be built, ownership of areas, and things like that. SWG pre CU, EVE are good examples of sandboxes.

I disagree.

A sandbox game as it applies to an MMO is about non-linear gameplay:

Wikipedia:

A game with nonlinear gameplay presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore the game environment independently from the game's main objectives.

A game that is noticeably nonlinear will sometimes be described as open-ended or as a sandbox.

So my points is, If uve read my previous post in its entirety, if u look at level or skill progression as a "challenge" the game offers, a non-linear path to achieve that challenge as Darkfall does it, falls squarly under the description of being a Sandbox game.

Furthermore the city placement in Darkfall, even lacking the ability to place a town in areas other then predesignated ones STILL counts as a sandbox gameplay element, simply because the size, structure type and life expectancy of the city is based ENTIRELY on in-game player driven actions.

Even by ur own definition:

"sandbox features allow players to change the game world."

Furthermore the active mob spawns that will move based on farmed frequency is another example of Sandbox features that falls into ur own distinction.

-Darkstar

Darkstar, every post you make leads me to believe more and more that eve, not darkfall is your dream game.

you shd really try it out, plus you can play it RIGHT NOW!  The learning curve is steep (reading a bit before creating a toon is advisable) but you seem to want that kind of challenging experience.

[url=http://www.eve-ivy.com]here's a link to eve university, a training corp for eve players who are new, and ya it's player organized player funded and etc.[/url]

itch

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by RZetlin

The problem is Darkfall does not meet the definition of a sandbox game.

An example sandbox game is Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In Elder Scrolls IV the NPCS have their own duties where they get up from bed, go to work, and the go home at night. You can start conversation with the NPCs and make them hate or like you.

From the beta video I saw, Darkfall is a world filled with a random lone mob that you kill. There are no NPCs that does their own routine. There are no NPCs you can talk to and form a relationship with.

 

---

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.
* Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.
* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).
* Enjoys player driven content.
* Guild v Guild politics
* Realistic gameplay environments (having to scan the horizon when you turn a corner...actually being able to duck behind some ruble in a city when being chased then run up some stairs to avoid 10 people trying to kill you and being able to escape vs. having a big green name above your head and being locked on to magically).
* Likes exploring...oh did i mention that? well DF exploration is that rewarding.
* And a ridiculous amount of sandbox elements i cant get into

---

 

Most of the stuff in your list does not have sandbox elements. This is a list of gameplay features that 99% of other MMORPGs have out there.

 

Wrong.

A sandbox game is one without linear progression.

Most MMOs out there currently have levels with a set or non-linear progression of the character.

That also applies to the content the character has to go through to evolve his character.

Now take the example of world of warcraft.

As u enter a zone u will aquire quests, and those quests will direct u to the areas the closest to the hub u are currently in, in fact if u walk past the range of the quest hub the first mobs u will encounter will be mobs closest to ur level, if the quest hub is in ur range, and this goes on throughout the entire game with all the zones being divided into the level content they provide.

These zones are also geographically limited, most zones having few exit's to neighbouring zones, who in most cases (thou not all) provide content only one step removed from the content of the zone itself.

This does not lend itself well to exploration as u will quickly arrive outside of content intended for you. 

 

THAT is liniear progression and the OPPOSITE of a Sandbox MMO.

 

Now lets take a look at some of the points u claimed exists in 99% of MMO's and are NOT indicative of a Sandbox:

 

* Likes the idea of finding a mob in the middle of nowhere, and having no idea how powerful it is, and can only guess based on its name and appearance.

 

This is a prime example of a non-linear progression, and also something that will NOT happen in almost 90% of the MMOs out there.

The game has content for higher progressed characters, and groups, but since its a sandbox that content can be found randomly around the game instead of placed in a successive order.

 

 * Is HUGE on exploration...as in walking/riding aimlessly looking at the map and thinking "hey there may be something cool like an underground clanstone or interesting cave', and then telling your guild how you found this amazing spot.

 

Again VERY indicative of a Sandbox style MMO. Favouring exploration to find the locations of interest in the map as opposed to following a streamlined linear progression structure.

 

* Is looking for a crafter's wet dream mmo in terms of the economy and demand (not necessarily the mechanics of the actual crafting).

Sexual innuendo aside (As I believe it was not intended as the point), the sheer amount of craftable items compared to the fact that one ends up loosing all ones worn and carried items by death, means a necesity to restock unforseen in perhaps any mmo, rivaled perhaps by UO, but not beat.

This is ofcourse the very pinnackle of a Sandbox element.

 

and so on and so on.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

The features listed in yellow, are not, IMO, sandbox features.

Sandbox games give you the ability to change the world.

Mobs spawning in random places doesn't do that at all. I don't see why you think that makes the game a "sandbox".

Exploration doesn't make a game a sandbox either. You can explore in even the most linear game. You simply skip the content and wander around.

Variety of craftable items is definitely not necessary for a sandbox game. Having a million craftable items would not make a game a sandbox, and a lack of any craftable items at all would not mean a game was not a sandbox.

IMO, sandbox features allow players to change the game world. LIke determining where a city will be built, ownership of areas, and things like that. SWG pre CU, EVE are good examples of sandboxes.

 

I disagree.

A sandbox game as it applies to an MMO is about non-linear gameplay:

Wikipedia:

A game with nonlinear gameplay presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore the game environment independently from the game's main objectives.

A game that is noticeably nonlinear will sometimes be described as open-ended or as a sandbox.

 

 

So my points is, If uve read my previous post in its entirety, if u look at level or skill progression as a "challenge" the game offers, a non-linear path to achieve that challenge as Darkfall does it, falls squarly under the description of being a Sandbox game.

 

Furthermore the city placement in Darkfall, even lacking the ability to place a town in areas other then predesignated ones STILL counts as a sandbox gameplay element, simply because the size, structure type and life expectancy of the city is based ENTIRELY on in-game player driven actions.

Even by ur own definition:

"sandbox features allow players to change the game world."

 

Furthermore the active mob spawns that will move based on farmed frequency is another example of Sandbox features that falls into ur own distinction.

 

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The challenge is not to gain a certain skill level, or to gain a certain level. The challenge is the objectives the game offers, like quests, and killing mobs.

Non-linear means I don't have to do quest A before I can do quest Z, or I don't have to kill mob A before I cna kill Mob Z.

It has nothing to do with random mob spawns.