MMOs are usually fairly complex, having a number of different systems or aspects to the game.  For example, you often have PvE combat, PvP combat, exploration, badge-hunting, crafting, socializing etc.

Often times bugs, issues or revamps hit some of these aspects very hard, and leave others relatively untouched.  For example, those feeling the sting of recent revamps to CoX include crafting badgers and PvP players.  Some like the merit system, but those who ran TF's mainly for rare recipe drops now may have to do the same TF four times before they can get the same recipe that they used to get after doing it once.  That's not a slam on the merit system by the way, but it is a commentary on the calculations used to determine the time-sink.

I've noticed that people who are directly affected by unwanted issues or changes will express concern over these, understandably.  I've then noticed that these comments tend to be followed by criticisms made by people who are not directly affected.  For example, I've noticed that some of those who are most critical of PvPers have never really PvPed in the game, and have really no intention of doing so now.

I'm thinking that there could be more helpful interaction if instead of immediately jumping to the attack, people who are not directly affected by something would take the time to listen or do some research.  You can be a very intelligent person and still not know everything that is going on in your MMO, and you may not know how changes affect your neighbour. 

If it affects others though, it will very likely have an indirect impact on your own gaming experience.  I think more listening and investigation would serve the game (and all players) better in the long run, rather than an uninformed, knee-jerk, critical response.  Just a thought.

People generally want games to be made easier for themselves and harder for others.  How is one supposed to advocate that without saying that things that mess up other people but don't affect you are really good updates? 

Originally posted by Quizzical

People generally want games to be made easier for themselves and harder for others.  How is one supposed to advocate that without saying that things that mess up other people but don't affect you are really good updates? 

I do believe you're catching my drift ^_^.  I think it's called ego-centrism, and it doesn't really make for a healthy community experience--gaming or otherwise does it?

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Quizzical

People generally want games to be made easier for themselves and harder for others.  How is one supposed to advocate that without saying that things that mess up other people but don't affect you are really good updates? 

 

I do believe you're catching my drift ^_^.  I think it's called ego-centrism, and it doesn't really make for a healthy community experience--gaming or otherwise does it?

Why can't I13 be called a good update except for the pvp changes? Saying an entire issue was bad because it harms a small percentage of the playerbase is even more ego-centric.
 

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I do believe you're catching my drift ^_^.  I think it's called ego-centrism, and it doesn't really make for a healthy community experience--gaming or otherwise does it?

It's interesting that you've cottoned onto ego-centrism because that's exactly what I saw in your original post.

Your OP - a huge generalisation - paints anyone who has a point of view different to your own as uninformed, thoughtless and negative. Rather than talking about the game, you've crossed over into making negative personal statements about other forum members.

Not a healthy community experience...

There's a troll on top of me!

Originally posted by Wikkedbowtie

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Quizzical

People generally want games to be made easier for themselves and harder for others.  How is one supposed to advocate that without saying that things that mess up other people but don't affect you are really good updates? 

 

I do believe you're catching my drift ^_^.  I think it's called ego-centrism, and it doesn't really make for a healthy community experience--gaming or otherwise does it?

Why can't I13 be called a good update except for the pvp changes? Saying an entire issue was bad because it harms a small percentage of the playerbase is even more ego-centric.
 

I haven't read anywhere in this thread where anyone said that the whole issue was bad.  Who or what are you responding to?

The answer is simple, when people enjoy something and then someone goes and changes it on you and makes it worse for you, you get upset.

Ego-centrism? Of fucking course it is, why the hell else would you be playing a video game? For the sake of others?

"Ah well they nerfed the hell out of my class, but its ok because they gave your class a whole bunch of buffs so its all good!"

Naw, thats never gonna happen.

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I do believe you're catching my drift ^_^.  I think it's called ego-centrism, and it doesn't really make for a healthy community experience--gaming or otherwise does it?

 

It's interesting that you've cottoned onto ego-centrism because that's exactly what I saw in your original post.

Your OP - a huge generalisation - paints anyone who has a point of view different to your own as uninformed, thoughtless and negative. Rather than talking about the game, you've crossed over into making negative personal statements about other forum members.

Not a healthy community experience...

 

Hmm well, I don't think anyone with a different point of view is thoughtless or negative, and I haven't attacked anyone.  Actually I said that people who may not know what their neighbour is experiencing could be very intelligent.  (Yes that's in the OP, and I meant it, feel free to confirm).  They may just be unaware of certain recent changes or how they are impacting others.  I surely don't think that discussing an apparent lack of awareness is some kind of attack, as you suggest. 

I really didn't expect that highlighting something like this would evoke such hostility.  I guess I've learned something else lol.  Players may not realize how game changes affect others, and if you attempt to point this out, some will become quite hostile 0_o.  I guess I'll treat this as another learning experience.

I do have to wonder though, why so hostile about an encouragement to try to investigate how game changes impact your fellow players?

Originally posted by UserNoName

The answer is simple, when people enjoy something and then someone goes and changes it on you and makes it worse for you, you get upset.

Ego-centrism? Of fucking course it is, why the hell else would you be playing a video game? For the sake of others?

"Ah well they nerfed the hell out of my class, but its ok because they gave your class a whole bunch of buffs so its all good!"

Naw, thats never gonna happen.

Lol gotta love the honesty here ^_^.  Yes I agree that it's ego-centric to get pissed off when someone ruins your fun.  I also think it's only human, and don't see this as a bad thing.  Of course people get ticked when you take things from them, break things, or chuck out their progress.

Maybe it has something to do with my childhood (my mom was really nice lol), but when I hear that someone else is going through that, I don't automatically think of ways to dismiss their concerns and attack them.  For example, I've never played a stalker in CoV, but I understand why stalkers are upset about the massive reduction in the damage they can do.  I've never played a dominator, but I understand that holding someone for only 2 seconds now, and doing very little damage, is probably a lot less fun than being able to hold them longer and actually do some damage.  I don't use superjump powers, but I understand how frustrating it must be to have this suppressed in a pvp zone.  I've also never been interested in crafting badges, at all, but I understand how much of a pain it must be to have Positron go back on his word and put badges out of reach.

I guess what puzzles me, is why some others have a hard time getting this.  You say that your crafting game was just borked, and people tell you to stop whining and/or leave if you don't like it.  Really, what's up with that? 

Wouldn't it make for a better gaming experience if we heard about people getting kicked in the groin by a new revamp, and instead of turning on them, we'd actually listen and try to understand what's going on?  We may even discover that our own gaming experience may also be indirectly affected, and not always for the good.

The problem Arc is you have historically argued your points reasonably and intelligently with people who have never displayed either. You are, unfortunately, listening to people who type because they have fingers, not because they have anything worth saying, or worth hearing. You seem to have noticed the trend, you question or criticize some aspect of a game and some assclown pops up claiming you're evil for doing so. When was the last time you had an intelligent exchange about some game aspect on this forum? Too many people with nothing better to do than defend some game that has never done anything for them but take their money and waste their time. Your best bet is to ignore such people, they don't reciprocate the respect and benefit of the doubt that you extend them and you not convincing them is of no consequence to either of you. its like arguing with your echo. Write them, and any  expectation of objectivity, off for good. Having all too often been in your place, I say this for your own good. Leave them their illusions...

Originally posted by Reborn17

The problem Arc is you have historically argued your points reasonably and intelligently with people who have never displayed either. You are, unfortunately, listening to people who type because they have fingers, not because they have anything worth saying, or worth hearing. You seem to have noticed the trend, you question or criticize some aspect of a game and some assclown pops up claiming you're evil for doing so. When was the last time you had an intelligent exchange about some game aspect on this forum? Too many people with nothing better to do than defend some game that has never done anything for them but take their money and waste their time. Your best bet is to ignore such people, they don't reciprocate the respect and benefit of the doubt that you extend them and you not convincing them is of no consequence to either of you. its like arguing with your echo. Write them, and any  expectation of objectivity, off for good. Having all too often been in your place, I say this for your own good. Leave them their illusions...

I believe that you have just given me a gift.  I'll try to accept it, and I see the wisdom.  I'm really quite thankful  ^_^.  See you on the boards my friend.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I believe that you have just given me a gift.  I'll try to accept it, and I see the wisdom.  I'm really quite thankful  ^_^.  See you on the boards my friend.

/Salute

Np bro.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I do believe you're catching my drift ^_^.  I think it's called ego-centrism, and it doesn't really make for a healthy community experience--gaming or otherwise does it?

 

It's interesting that you've cottoned onto ego-centrism because that's exactly what I saw in your original post.

Your OP - a huge generalisation - paints anyone who has a point of view different to your own as uninformed, thoughtless and negative. Rather than talking about the game, you've crossed over into making negative personal statements about other forum members.

Not a healthy community experience...

 

 

Hmm well, I don't think anyone with a different point of view is thoughtless or negative, and I haven't attacked anyone.  Actually I said that people who may not know what their neighbour is experiencing could be very intelligent.  (Yes that's in the OP, and I meant it, feel free to confirm).  They may just be unaware of certain recent changes or how they are impacting others.  I surely don't think that discussing an apparent lack of awareness is some kind of attack, as you suggest. 

I really didn't expect that highlighting something like this would evoke such hostility.  I guess I've learned something else lol.  Players may not realize how game changes affect others, and if you attempt to point this out, some will become quite hostile 0_o.  I guess I'll treat this as another learning experience.

I do have to wonder though, why so hostile about an encouragement to try to investigate how game changes impact your fellow players?

 

Hostile? What exactly in my post is hostile? I disagree with you and merely suggest that you have displayed the same characteristic (ego-centrism) you've accused others of - and if said accusation is hostile, wouldn't that make yours the first act of hostility?

As for why I bothered to post, I think your OP does cross the line a bit into a broad, generalised personal attack - which is uncivilised behaviour for this kind of forum. It doesn't discuss the game - just the potential personal deficiencies of those who disagree with you.

"I think more listening and investigation would serve the game (and all players) better in the long run, rather than an uninformed, knee-jerk, critical response."

This is a nice summary of your post. While you've layed on the "they may be intelligent" you've also clearly throughout painted those who disagree with you as uninformed, thoughtless and negative.

People can disagree with you and be perfectly aware of how game changes affect other players. They may just not care. They may also, as I imagine the game developers did, weigh all considerations and decide that on balance, the changes are good.

Not that I necessarily think they are good - CoX has an incredibly rocky history when it comes to swinging the nerf bat and some of the changes that sparked this thread will make the game less enjoyable. But the game developers' ultimate goal isn't to make the game more enjoyable - it's to milk more money out of it. That means striking a delicate balance between fun and grind to keep people playing and paying for as long as possible.

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I do believe you're catching my drift ^_^.  I think it's called ego-centrism, and it doesn't really make for a healthy community experience--gaming or otherwise does it?

 

It's interesting that you've cottoned onto ego-centrism because that's exactly what I saw in your original post.

Your OP - a huge generalisation - paints anyone who has a point of view different to your own as uninformed, thoughtless and negative. Rather than talking about the game, you've crossed over into making negative personal statements about other forum members.

Not a healthy community experience...

 

 

Hmm well, I don't think anyone with a different point of view is thoughtless or negative, and I haven't attacked anyone.  Actually I said that people who may not know what their neighbour is experiencing could be very intelligent.  (Yes that's in the OP, and I meant it, feel free to confirm).  They may just be unaware of certain recent changes or how they are impacting others.  I surely don't think that discussing an apparent lack of awareness is some kind of attack, as you suggest. 

I really didn't expect that highlighting something like this would evoke such hostility.  I guess I've learned something else lol.  Players may not realize how game changes affect others, and if you attempt to point this out, some will become quite hostile 0_o.  I guess I'll treat this as another learning experience.

I do have to wonder though, why so hostile about an encouragement to try to investigate how game changes impact your fellow players?

 

 

Hostile? What exactly in my post is hostile? I disagree with you and merely suggest that you have displayed the same characteristic (ego-centrism) you've accused others of - and if said accusation is hostile, wouldn't that make yours the first act of hostility?

As for why I bothered to post, I think your OP does cross the line a bit into a broad, generalised personal attack - which is uncivilised behaviour for this kind of forum. It doesn't discuss the game - just the potential personal deficiencies of those who disagree with you.

"I think more listening and investigation would serve the game (and all players) better in the long run, rather than an uninformed, knee-jerk, critical response."

This is a nice summary of your post. While you've layed on the "they may be intelligent" you've also clearly throughout painted those who disagree with you as uninformed, thoughtless and negative.

People can disagree with you and be perfectly aware of how game changes affect other players. They may just not care. They may also, as I imagine the game developers did, weigh all considerations and decide that on balance, the changes are good.

Not that I necessarily think they are good - CoX has an incredibly rocky history when it comes to swinging the nerf bat and some of the changes that sparked this thread will make the game less enjoyable. But the game developers' ultimate goal isn't to make the game more enjoyable - it's to milk more money out of it. That means striking a delicate balance between fun and grind to keep people playing and paying for as long as possible.

 

Oh hi there again Green.  Well, I think what may be at issue here is the difficulty presented by communicating tone in written form.
 

You see, I really don't think that people are thoughtless or negative, and I really do have no intention of attacking people.  I'll try to refer to the OP again for clarity.  You see, most of the responses I've received in this particular forum (not yours) have come from people that eventually admitted they hadn't played the aspects of the game I was commenting on.  I provided the PvP game as an example.

Even though they haven't played that part of the game, they were quick to dismiss anyone who raised concerns about it, and at times the language used came across as derogatory.  So you see, my observation really was about a specific situation.  Some folks really admitted not knowing what they were talking about, but saw fit to criticize others for raising concerns anyways.

I've seen this on these boards, but also saw this quite a bit on the official forums for CoX.  Since it was a recurring pattern that seemed to get in the way of helpful dialogue, I thought I would highlight it and encourage a new, possibly more positive, direction.

To say that I'm attacking people, suggests to me that you weren't really getting the message I was trying to send.  I think you really assumed I was attacking people, and that this came from self-centered motivation on my part.  The way you addressed me therefore came across as somewhat reactionary, which would be understandable if this is what I was doing.

I could be wrong of course, but that's what seemed to be happening.  So, just to be clear, this is really about those who admit not knowing much about part of an MMO but see fit to criticize other players anyways when they raise concerns about it.

Hopefully that makes more sense, and doesn't sound like a generalized attack on other players ^_^.  I still feel that this pattern exists for some, and that listening and doing a little research would be more productive than just criticizing people for highlighting their concerns.  If I'm critiquing anything, it's a pattern of communication, not people.

I came into this post feeling as if I might have to disagree but after seeing your point I've often felt the same way about a lot of things, our lack of objectivity is often stunning to me.

But just taking mmos for example it is crazy seeing the games that have been wrecked or heavily influenced in a bad way by the community SWG does fall into this category as well believe it or not.

This problem though is going to rear it's head alot more in pvp games as pve since what is had by other players will adversely afect them.

Another good example is STO people scream from the mountain top about having a game where everyone can't be a captain of a ship from start that they should have to work on "crews" and earn the right which can actually be done in game if you so choose to join a "guild" and do that I believe, but even if not most of those opposed to the idea don't take into account those that it would ruin the experience for if that were the case, Star Trek was a sci fi show about a ship it's crew and their exploration of space.

I can't call it really I like to think that a happy medium exists in most things but often times you get the feeling that the sentiment is becoming more rare everyday.

Originally posted by jaxsundane

I came into this post feeling as if I might have to disagree but after seeing your point I've often felt the same way about a lot of things, our lack of objectivity is often stunning to me.

But just taking mmos for example it is crazy seeing the games that have been wrecked or heavily influenced in a bad way by the community SWG does fall into this category as well believe it or not.

This problem though is going to rear it's head alot more in pvp games as pve since what is had by other players will adversely afect them.

Another good example is STO people scream from the mountain top about having a game where everyone can't be a captain of a ship from start that they should have to work on "crews" and earn the right which can actually be done in game if you so choose to join a "guild" and do that I believe, but even if not most of those opposed to the idea don't take into account those that it would ruin the experience for if that were the case, Star Trek was a sci fi show about a ship it's crew and their exploration of space.

I can't call it really I like to think that a happy medium exists in most things but often times you get the feeling that the sentiment is becoming more rare everyday.

Agreed; well said.  I think this problem really shows up when developers take an approach that addresses one target audience's preference at the expense of another's.  It seems like either/or thinking, or "splitting" as we say in my business.  I'm sure that some of this is unavoidable, but at the same time I'm sure that some huge player schisms in MMOs could have been avoided by more skillful community management.

This can show itself in beta testing of course (like STO), and probably that's where it should be resolved for the most part.  I think it really becomes unfortunate when target audience shifts occur in a live game though.

This happens to be the case with the CoX PvP revamp especially.  The original system is suited to those who prefer fast-paced, 3D, super-powered combat, with multiple power variations.  There is a learning curve to be sure for building a character suited to this, and for learning to move, attack and counter powers effectively.  There's also a learning curve related to how to utilize various archetypes together in teams for the power combinations.

That all seemed to get chucked out the window in favour of a slow moving, movement suppressed game, with diminished power effectiveness.  What this leaves is more toe-to-toe button mashing that tends to go on for a long time, until someone dies or hits the phase shift button--tbh.

This is a fairly major paradigm shift for a live game, and it really has hit a lot of the PvP players hard, which brings us back to my original point.  Game changes can hit some players really hard while leaving others relatively untouched.  I think it would be nice if people recognized this, and did a little listening before jumping to the attack--in defense of their MMO of choice.

I'm not sure that this will ever change in MMOs really, but it would be nice. 

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I do believe you're catching my drift ^_^.  I think it's called ego-centrism, and it doesn't really make for a healthy community experience--gaming or otherwise does it?

 

It's interesting that you've cottoned onto ego-centrism because that's exactly what I saw in your original post.

Your OP - a huge generalisation - paints anyone who has a point of view different to your own as uninformed, thoughtless and negative. Rather than talking about the game, you've crossed over into making negative personal statements about other forum members.

Not a healthy community experience...

 

 

Hmm well, I don't think anyone with a different point of view is thoughtless or negative, and I haven't attacked anyone.  Actually I said that people who may not know what their neighbour is experiencing could be very intelligent.  (Yes that's in the OP, and I meant it, feel free to confirm).  They may just be unaware of certain recent changes or how they are impacting others.  I surely don't think that discussing an apparent lack of awareness is some kind of attack, as you suggest. 

I really didn't expect that highlighting something like this would evoke such hostility.  I guess I've learned something else lol.  Players may not realize how game changes affect others, and if you attempt to point this out, some will become quite hostile 0_o.  I guess I'll treat this as another learning experience.

I do have to wonder though, why so hostile about an encouragement to try to investigate how game changes impact your fellow players?

 

 

Hostile? What exactly in my post is hostile? I disagree with you and merely suggest that you have displayed the same characteristic (ego-centrism) you've accused others of - and if said accusation is hostile, wouldn't that make yours the first act of hostility?

As for why I bothered to post, I think your OP does cross the line a bit into a broad, generalised personal attack - which is uncivilised behaviour for this kind of forum. It doesn't discuss the game - just the potential personal deficiencies of those who disagree with you.

"I think more listening and investigation would serve the game (and all players) better in the long run, rather than an uninformed, knee-jerk, critical response."

This is a nice summary of your post. While you've layed on the "they may be intelligent" you've also clearly throughout painted those who disagree with you as uninformed, thoughtless and negative.

People can disagree with you and be perfectly aware of how game changes affect other players. They may just not care. They may also, as I imagine the game developers did, weigh all considerations and decide that on balance, the changes are good.

Not that I necessarily think they are good - CoX has an incredibly rocky history when it comes to swinging the nerf bat and some of the changes that sparked this thread will make the game less enjoyable. But the game developers' ultimate goal isn't to make the game more enjoyable - it's to milk more money out of it. That means striking a delicate balance between fun and grind to keep people playing and paying for as long as possible.

 

Oh hi there again Green.  Well, I think what may be at issue here is the difficulty presented by communicating tone in written form.
 

You see, I really don't think that people are thoughtless or negative, and I really do have no intention of attacking people.  I'll try to refer to the OP again for clarity.  You see, most of the responses I've received in this particular forum (not yours) have come from people that eventually admitted they hadn't played the aspects of the game I was commenting on.  I provided the PvP game as an example.

Even though they haven't played that part of the game, they were quick to dismiss anyone who raised concerns about it, and at times the language used came across as derogatory.  So you see, my observation really was about a specific situation.  Some folks really admitted not knowing what they were talking about, but saw fit to criticize others for raising concerns anyways.

I've seen this on these boards, but also saw this quite a bit on the official forums for CoX.  Since it was a recurring pattern that seemed to get in the way of helpful dialogue, I thought I would highlight it and encourage a new, possibly more positive, direction.

To say that I'm attacking people, suggests to me that you weren't really getting the message I was trying to send.  I think you really assumed I was attacking people, and that this came from self-centered motivation on my part.  The way you addressed me therefore came across as somewhat reactionary, which would be understandable if this is what I was doing.

I could be wrong of course, but that's what seemed to be happening.  So, just to be clear, this is really about those who admit not knowing much about part of an MMO but see fit to criticize other players anyways when they raise concerns about it.

Hopefully that makes more sense, and doesn't sound like a generalized attack on other players ^_^.  I still feel that this pattern exists for some, and that listening and doing a little research would be more productive than just criticizing people for highlighting their concerns.  If I'm critiquing anything, it's a pattern of communication, not people.

You know an important rule of communication is that the communicator has to get his  point to the reciever.  See what you did above is to blame (I am "sure"  you didn't mean it) for not getting your message.  Here is a better way, say you didn't send the message properly (oh a self-admission!) then rephrase the original message in a way which is better for the person you are writing it for.  What you have done (doesn't matter if you meant it or not) is turn it into personalization because he didn't get your message (it comes out as he is at fault).
 

Now forget the above if you are only concerned with posturing.

I got what he was saying exactly the firts time he mentioned it. The guy who was attacking him is at fault for not understanding what he was trying to get across, so, perhaps you could take some of your snooty, thinly masked attack and go elsewhere.

Issue 13 had both good and bad results, the good is that the merit system makes it easier to afford hard to get or expensive recipes (125-200 merits is better than 50-100 mil recipe) and people doing TF rolls are making at least 200 million a week by flipping the market with them. An ITF runs with the same people or VG/SG (or coalition network) averages 50-70 minutes and several do it more than once a day, sure is a whole lot better than sitting in Battle Maiden or liberate TV farms.

The bad is the pvp changes, it left such a negative impact in zone pvp (one of my favorite pastimes before i13), more people has phase shift/hibernate/personal force field/blahblahblah and defense sets are broken because when I had capped tohit I was unable to hit an SR scrapper, another thing is the taunt's -range debuff. The outcome of the pvp changes has made the pvp zones much quieter (even Freedom's) and drove away many hardcore pvpers (many pvp SG/VGs has gotten quiet).