Originally posted by xxxfistxxx

only game that does 50 ppl pvp relatively ok is counterstrike.

No mmo does 50 man fights well,

 

As far as df goes lets hope its the final blow for people like you posting int he forums

 

lol

Sorry m8 but you need to try other mmos if you really think this. First WoW used to have 100s of people litterally in a area fighting before battlegrounds, right now they have a zone dedicated to these fights and they always have 100s of people fighting in it. Although it starts to get quite laggy it is very possible to play in those types of fights.

I have not played it but there are plenty of reports of 600+ player battles in EvE online. Both of these turnbased combat systems.

I am 100% sure that the linage series of games has large player battles in.

Planetside has countless battles with up to 200 people in with no problems, and everyone knows planetsides engine is terrible.

The Chronicles of Spellborn has upwards of 200 people in a battle as well. Both of these have FPS combat systems like Darkfall.

So it is very possible to have large battles in countless mmos.

As for the actual topic, their is a debug mode, but come on how can that alone lag the entire server for just 50 people fighting in an area? They must be doing a hell of a lot of debugging for that to happen, to be honest the fact that there are very few mobs turned on means that the game should theoretically run better at the moment in moderate scale fights such as this one.

Also UK players were lagging as well, not just the americans, and as mentioned people across the servers were also reported to be lagging.

This is very worring information for a game who main focus will be guild verses guild battles, which will all be upwards of 60 people fighting in a zone.

Originally posted by fyerwall 

So when the fanboys use that site as a reference due to positive info its ok?

I don't see anyone saying that here.

But obviously it's okay to put words in people's mouths and then attack them for it.

The game blows alright.  The collector's edition comes with a set of golden knee-pads.

Originally posted by Gishgeron

  You pretty much nailed it when you said "Unprofessional".  You can't be anything BUT second rate if you aren't professional.  The point here is this:  The are neither seasoned, or road-tested (so to speak), thus have no background to help them go about things.  I'm not saying these guys CAN'T write some code.  I'm not saying they can't make a game.  I'm not even saying they can't implement some great ideals.

  I am saying it takes some hefty experience to be able to really optimize something to run at its best.  There are going to be tons of issues these guys have never experienced before, tons of interesting ways the different elements of the game interact with one another, and these things are going to be HURDLES for people not already experienced and having a few games under their belt.  It would be even better if they had worked for another major MMO before....having that background would have prepared them more for what it IS they are trying to undertake.

  Also, a nice looking world is probably the easiest thing to do.  Making textures and lighting work on an environment is probably the more enjoyable parts of the design and developement teams day.  Its harder to make textures look nice on player models (since the artist has to make "art" that is designed to layer over curves and edges that vary wildly)  Terrain is fairly easy, by comparison. 

  Now, the coding that makes the game understand that YOU aren't supposed to fall through that terrain....thats a bit harder.  Even more, to make sure the game understands how to handle you approaching the terrain at odd angles or speeds.  If an ability knocks you back 5 ft, and you have your back to a wall....to be able to ensure you won't go THROUGH the wall.  Then, to make sure that the server can keep up with all of that processing WHILE dealing with information transfer between a few hundred computers if you have a massive siege....its....very large in scope.

  These guys are newbies.  BIG newbies.  Large amounts of interacting players will most likely pose a problem.  The closest comparison we even have to this in inside EVE.  NOTE:  If 1000 players are making war in EVE....its lagging.  ALSO NOTE:  EVE's housed computer has even less to process (with less terrain objects, since its in space and not on ground)  EVEN FURTHER NOTE:  The team running EVE has far more experienced programmers.  FINAL NOTE:  EVE has had much more time to "test" its optimization on actual live servers...with people from vastly different locations.

  If they are struggling with these problems....the DFO is going to for certain.  I don't think anyone here would argue that the DFO team is far less experienced than anyone on the top 5 major MMO teams.  As far as this genre is concerned....thats as second rate as they come.

It's obvious to me as a veteran programmer you don't know jack about programming or any IT discipline relevant to game content creation. Suffice to say, nearly everything you posted is incorrect. If your point was that this is Aventurine's first game release and there are bound to be teething problems, well that's self-evident. that has no bearing on how good their programmers are. case in point: valve's first game was half-life, a game that was widely cricised and even won the wired vapourware award for multiple years running, *and* they started with a pre-existing game engine (quake1).

based on the evidence at hand, if anything, the opposite appears to be true - Av have been able to produce an impressive sandbox MMO based on a modern, homegrown graphics engine with homegrown physics and AI subsystems with roughly 1/5th to a 1/10th of the resources of other, more established game companies.

Originally posted by xxxfistxxx

only game that does 50 ppl pvp relatively ok is counterstrike.

No mmo does 50 man fights well,

 

As far as df goes lets hope its the final blow for people like you posting int he forums

 

Ah yes natural selection, so please allow me to edu[ma]cate you..

Actually ill just use two fairly popular games

1. World of Warcraft - Easily does 80 with close to no lag

2. Eve-Online - These folks recently did a test with 1000 players in a single system and although it had lag 1000 vs 50! ah well if you cant figure that out then i dont need to waste my time providing the example.

Bottom line, for a game thats been in development for as long as it has to test 50 players for PvP is plain lazy programming!

Originally posted by javac

It's obvious to me as a veteran programmer you don't know jack about programming or any IT discipline relevant to game content creation. Suffice to say, nearly everything you posted is incorrect. If your point was that this is Aventurine's first game release and there are bound to be teething problems, well that's self-evident. that has no bearing on how good their programmers are. case in point: valve's first game was half-life, a game that was widely cricised and even won the wired vapourware award for multiple years running, *and* they started with a pre-existing game engine (quake1).

 

based on the evidence at hand, if anything, the opposite appears to be true - Av have been able to produce an impressive sandbox MMO based on a modern, homegrown graphics engine with homegrown physics and AI subsystems with roughly 1/5th to a 1/10th of the resources of other, more established game companies.

Originally posted by sinjin

The game blows alright.  The collector's edition comes with a set of golden knee-pads.

Ahahaha.  This made my morning. 

I read that "source" the OP referred to and wonder why people zero in on the lag. Most unsettling should be that DF appears at least as unfinished as AoC was at release and much less professionally coded. All while the hype builds on features that are completely broken, along with the lag the coding is just very poor.

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by fyerwall 

So when the fanboys use that site as a reference due to positive info its ok?

 

I don't see anyone saying that here.

But obviously it's okay to put words in people's mouths and then attack them for it.

Um, everytime someone asks for info the fans tell them to look there. Its been part of the fanboy scripture for a long time.

Nice try though

DF has had so many final blows it should have been counted out a long time ago. It's a pitiful sight.

Originally posted by fyerwall

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by fyerwall 

So when the fanboys use that site as a reference due to positive info its ok?

 

I don't see anyone saying that here.

But obviously it's okay to put words in people's mouths and then attack them for it.

 

Um, everytime someone asks for info the fans tell them to look there. Its been part of the fanboy scripture for a long time.

Nice try though

Ah so why is it that anytime a fan leaks any info, or someone leaks something positive the thread gets reported and closed within a few minutes, but this one has been up for all of this time with more blatant leaks than the others that close?

It is because it IS ok for us if someone leaks negative info.  It is obviously not ok with trolls if anything positive gets leaked though.

I talked with a member of this fight and I understand it is a bad situation.  I am still saying though that over a week ago there were nearly 50 man fights that did not have these symptoms before the last two mega patches.  If they can break it, they can fix it. 

Be wary though please.  Don't buy the game until launch and when this can be tested live.  Until then save the doom and gloom ultimate final judgments.

Originally posted by ProfRed

Originally posted by fyerwall

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by fyerwall 

So when the fanboys use that site as a reference due to positive info its ok?

 

I don't see anyone saying that here.

But obviously it's okay to put words in people's mouths and then attack them for it.

 

Um, everytime someone asks for info the fans tell them to look there. Its been part of the fanboy scripture for a long time.

Nice try though

 

Ah so why is it that anytime a fan leaks any info, or someone leaks something positive the thread gets reported and closed within a few minutes, but this one has been up for all of this time with more blatant leaks than the others that close?

It is because it IS ok for us if someone leaks negative info.  It is obviously not ok with trolls if anything positive gets leaked though.

I talked with a member of this fight and I understand it is a bad situation.  I am still saying though that over a week ago there were nearly 50 man fights that did not have these symptoms before the last two mega patches.  If they can break it, they can fix it. 

Be wary though please.  Don't buy the game until launch and when this can be tested live.  Until then save the doom and gloom ultimate final judgments.

No idea why it hasnt been closed if it has been reported, thats a matter for the mods. I am just stating that the fans use what is leaked to those forums as proof the game is 'perfect' and constantly tell people to look there for info if they are skeptical. Then when the site is used by others to point out flaws in the game it suddenly becomes a 'troll' site.

I mean you cant one minute quote a site as though its biblical text and then pull a 180 when it no longer supports your belliefs. That goes for both sides.

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Actually, WoW does a pretty good job to support 50 vs 50-100 since city raids have become popular. Did it lag when I participated? Nope. Theres also Dark Age of Camelot, which allowed for some 3 way action of 50 vs 50 vs 50, with little to no lag. Planetside also allowed some serious numbers when it came to confrontations for base control.

If DFO allows for 200 vs 200 with no lag, I'll be impressed. If it allows for 50 vs 50, I'll be impressed. However, the game hasn't launched and until it does, no one can actually say what DFO can or can't do.

I agree, I have been in many raids where there were at least 100 chars all huddled around in a small area and have not lagged, though I heard others shouting about the lag. So I would say it depends on you comp. Funny thing is I can't play DF with warping and lag even with 10 people, at least yet, with the same comp I have no problem with on WoW.

I think they have work to do.

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by ProfRed

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Originally posted by thinktank001

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Originally posted by Evasia

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Originally posted by pprllo
Ok, I guess I had to be M04R explicit:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/betaleaks/topic/1207323/
http://s1.zetaboards.com/betaleaks/topic/1207210/
This is what I'm talking about.

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Lol so some troll site that have some so called beta leaks you believe hahaha.
What a joke you guys are:P

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You do realize those posts came from the DF beta forums right?  
This is what betatesters are saying about siege mechanics and server stability.  I think for most people this kind of information is game breaking.

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It isn't server stability it is FPS and graphics stability which were greatly reduced with bugs introduced in the last 2 major patches.  Also the siege mechanics that they complain about are 90% whining outside of the schedules and the one person being the commander.  The commander is actually a very fun concept that many people like because it creates a very interesting fight, but it requires a very simple change.  If the commander logs out/crashes after a delay the leadership should transfer to another member of the attacking guild instead of being forfeit.  This is all that is needed. 
This group of testers have been a huge bunch of whining pricks for a while now, and they don't make suggestions on ways to improve anything which AV actually listens to and works on.  Instead they whine, cry, and leak out negative info across the internet.  Now I am sure they will be banned, and will raise even more of a stink.  You haters and trolls should get their emails i'm sure they could give you all kinds of juicy info.

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Agreed. The people complaining about their ping jumping from 120ms to 8000ms probably had crappy video cards.

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PING has NOTHING to do with graphics cards. Stop talking rubbish.

Check out the sources now..  There is something new...

@Fyrewall I don't discredit that site or think anyone should stop going there and reading the negative.  I never said the game was perfect, and have been pretty critical on key points.  I didn't know that this was an issue because like I said a little over a week ago there was an almost 50 man fight which ran great.  I know there were complaints about the two patches leading up to this fight dropping performance, and I didn't realize it was lag as well.  I talked to someone involved in the fight and I understand the issue.  Aventurine knows about it as well. 

Darkfall -> Java
Games that support 50v50 combat -> C++ or possibly C#.

I hate to say this, but I predicted this would happen a year ago, Java isn't capable of doing big ground-breaking stuff. Now don't start with "my prof says it is possible", it might be possible, if you feel like spending twice the time of doing it in C++, for the same results.
The only exception I've seen, is EVE online, which is in Stackless Python. But that's mainly because of the changes the performance fixes they made themselves (Stackless IO). Maybe Aventurine will try to do something like that, but it might easily take them a few years... ;)

Originally posted by Vortigon

 

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Agreed. The people complaining about their ping jumping from 120ms to 8000ms probably had crappy video cards.

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PING has NOTHING to do with graphics cards. Stop talking rubbish.

 

He was being sarcastic and he was right.  I hadn't talked to someone in that fight until later in the day and pings and fps went up.  They released a very large patch today though that should adress a good bit of this.  We can hopefully re-test it again today.

Originally posted by Vortigon

 

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Originally posted by heartless

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Originally posted by ProfRed

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Originally posted by thinktank001

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Originally posted by Evasia

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Originally posted by pprllo
Ok, I guess I had to be M04R explicit:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/betaleaks/topic/1207323/
http://s1.zetaboards.com/betaleaks/topic/1207210/
This is what I'm talking about.

---

 

 
Lol so some troll site that have some so called beta leaks you believe hahaha.
What a joke you guys are:P

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You do realize those posts came from the DF beta forums right?  
This is what betatesters are saying about siege mechanics and server stability.  I think for most people this kind of information is game breaking.

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It isn't server stability it is FPS and graphics stability which were greatly reduced with bugs introduced in the last 2 major patches.  Also the siege mechanics that they complain about are 90% whining outside of the schedules and the one person being the commander.  The commander is actually a very fun concept that many people like because it creates a very interesting fight, but it requires a very simple change.  If the commander logs out/crashes after a delay the leadership should transfer to another member of the attacking guild instead of being forfeit.  This is all that is needed. 
This group of testers have been a huge bunch of whining pricks for a while now, and they don't make suggestions on ways to improve anything which AV actually listens to and works on.  Instead they whine, cry, and leak out negative info across the internet.  Now I am sure they will be banned, and will raise even more of a stink.  You haters and trolls should get their emails i'm sure they could give you all kinds of juicy info.

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Agreed. The people complaining about their ping jumping from 120ms to 8000ms probably had crappy video cards.

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PING has NOTHING to do with graphics cards. Stop talking rubbish.

 

Sarcasm. You, sir, don't understand it.

Originally posted by ProfRed

Check out the sources now..  There is something new...

@Fyrewall I don't discredit that site or think anyone should stop going there and reading the negative.  I never said the game was perfect, and have been pretty critical on key points.  I didn't know that this was an issue because like I said a little over a week ago I was involved in an almost 50 man fight which ran great.  I know there were complaints about the two patches leading up to this fight dropping performance, and I didn't realize it was lag as well.  I talked to someone involved in the fight and I understand the issue.  Aventurine knows about it as well. 

Aye, not saying you are one of the people as your posts are pretty much middle ground 'wait and see' posts.

Also I understand the situation as well and can chalk it up to beta issues and the such. What I cant stand is when you have the die hards suffering from ostrich syndrome, constantly sticking their heads in the sand and acting like if they dont see it its not there, while at the same time telling others they have no idea what they are talking about.

And I'll agree that DFO needs a lot more time in testing because no matter what anyone says, 2 weeks is nowhere near enough time for the testing that remains needing to be done.

Originally posted by fyerwall

Originally posted by ProfRed

Check out the sources now..  There is something new...

@Fyrewall I don't discredit that site or think anyone should stop going there and reading the negative.  I never said the game was perfect, and have been pretty critical on key points.  I didn't know that this was an issue because like I said a little over a week ago I was involved in an almost 50 man fight which ran great.  I know there were complaints about the two patches leading up to this fight dropping performance, and I didn't realize it was lag as well.  I talked to someone involved in the fight and I understand the issue.  Aventurine knows about it as well. 

 

Aye, not saying you are one of the people as your posts are pretty much middle ground 'wait and see' posts.

Also I understand the situation as well and can chalk it up to beta issues and the such. What I cant stand is when you have the die hards suffering from ostrich syndrome, constantly sticking their heads in the sand and acting like if they dont see it its not there, while at the same time telling others they have no idea what they are talking about.

And I'll agree that DFO needs a lot more time in testing because no matter what anyone says, 2 weeks is nowhere near enough time for the testing that remains needing to be done.

But... but... but.... what about the AI bots and professional testers.  They didn't need us, remember?