Originally posted by floppyface

Originally posted by Pheace

Talk about wrong...

It does not work like *any* mod. Especially the mods you mentioned are even completely off the mark. Glider automated everything for you, everything. Those mods don't automate anything, they just sort information and make decision making easier but nothing happens unless *you* do something.

It does work just like any other mod FROM A PROGRAMMING POINT OF VIEW. I've said a million times that this isn't about if MMO Glider is cheating or not. THE MOD AUTHOR FREELY ADMITS ON HIS WEBSITE THAT IF YOU ARE CAUGHT USING THIS SOFTWARE YOU WILL BE BANNED.

SHOW ME ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT MMO GLIDER ALTERS ANY BLIZZARD CODE. YOU CANT BECAUSE EVEN THE JUDGE SAYS IT DOESN'T. I'll repeat, MMO Glider does not alter Blizzard code installed on your hard drive. Its just a third party piece of software you run concurrently with WoW - like any other mod. I DONT CARE WHAT THE MODS DO.

Q: Is using Glider cause for suspension/ban?
A: Yes, Glider is against the Terms of Service as provided by Blizzard for World of Warcraft. If you are detected using Glider, your account will be suspended for 72 hours and very likely banned completely. While Glider does not violate any of the terms listed under Blizzard's "Client/Server Manipulation Policy", it is still a third-party program and their Terms of Service are very open in what falls under that definition, meaning they can find you in violation for pretty much anything they want.

Glider provides a number of features to help lower the risk of detection - for more information, see the next topic.

Bottom line: use at your own risk.

Taken from the FAQ from the software's website in question. I'm not linking the URL.

Then comes a more important point. Glider actively worked on evading Blizzard's Warden/Anti cheat structure.

And do you know what Blizzard's argument for that was?

World of Warcraft includes software called a "warden" that scans a user's computer looking for bots such as Glider. Blizzard contends that Glider violates the provision of the DMCA that prohibits "trafficking" in software that is "primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work" protected by copyright.

Judge Campbell has distinguished between the actual bits stored on the World of Warcraft disk (which he called the "literal elements" of the game) and the interface elements the user encounters as he's actually playing the game (which he dubbed "non-literal elements"). In his ruling last summer, Judge Campbell ruled that Glider did not violate the DMCA with respect to the "literal elements" because Warden did not "effectively control" access to those elements: they are stored, unencrypted, on the World of Warcraft disk. But he deferred until this month's trial the question of whether Glider violated the DMCA with respect to the "non-literal elements."

In Wednesday's ruling, Judge Campbell found that Warden did effectively control access to the "non-literal elements." That is, while Warden does not prevent users from accessing the individual elements of the game separately, it does effectively bar users from accessing all of the elements together while playing the game. Therefore, Judge Campbell concluded, MDY violated the DMCA when it evaded warden's checks.

That is a weak and pathetic use of the DCMA laws in the USA. Non-Literal elements? Even the way I play the game is copyrighted?

 

 

Ok, Floppy which is it?  You either know how Glider works or you don't.  You can't argue both sides of law.
 

If Glider works just like any other mod then this ruling would end all mods.  It doesn't.  Mods are fine.  They always have been and in fact Blizzard encourages their use.

Glider does not work like a mod.  Glider works as a sort of mini operating system sitting below your own operating system.  For Glider to work IT has to run WoW, not your operating system.  This is done so that it can prevent WoW from reporting back to Blizzard.  It doesn't HAVE to change any of Blizzard's code, because it doesn't need to.  From WoW's perspective it works exactly the same, the only difference is that WoW is under Glider's control, not your operating system's control and therefore at the mercy of Glider.  If you think this is how addon's work, you are sadly mistaken.

If you are merely mistaken fine, just leave it be now.  If you continue to persist in your denials, it's clear you are clearly misrepresenting the facts about how Glider works.

Originally posted by skeaser

virtuallyblind.com/files/mdy/07-14-08_Order.pdf - This is from the courts.

A. Do Users of Glider Infringe Blizzard’s Copyright?
MDY does not dispute that Blizzard owns a valid copyright in the WoW game client
and game server software. Nor does MDY dispute that the game client software, which
typically is located on the hard drive of a player’s personal computer, is copied from the hard
drive to the computer’s random access memory (“RAM”) when WoW is played.
Ninth Circuit law holds that the copying of software to RAM constitutes “copying”
for purposes of section 106 of the Copyright Act. MAI Sys. Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc.,
991 F.2d 511, 518-19 (9th Cir. 1993). Thus, if a person is not authorized by the copyright
holder (through a license) or by law (through section117, which will be discussed below) to
copy the software to RAM, the person is guilty of copyright infringement because the person
has exercised a right (copying) that belongs exclusively to the copyright holder.
MDY contends that users of Glider do not infringe Blizzard’s copyright because they
are licensed to copy the game client software to RAM. MDY claims that WoW players
acquire this license when they purchase the game client software and load it on the hard
drives of their personal computers. MDY claims that contrary provisions of the EULA and
TOU, such as express prohibitions on the use of bots, are mere terms of contract, not
limitations on the scope of the license granted by Blizzard. Thus, although Blizzard may
assert a claim against Glider users for breach of contract, MDY argues, it cannot assert the
more powerful claim of copyright infringement.4
“Generally, a copyright owner who grants a nonexclusive license to use his
copyrighted material waives his right to sue the licensee for copyright infringement and can
sue only for breach of contract.” Sun Microsystems, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp., 188 F.3d 1115,
1121 (9th Cir. 1999) (“Sun I”) (citations omitted). “If, however, a license is limited in scope and the licensee acts outside the scope, the licensor can bring an action for copyright
infringement.” Id. To prevail on a copyright infringement claim, therefore, a plaintiff who
has granted a license must establish that the license terms are “limitations on the scope of the
license rather than independent contractual covenants,” and that the defendant’s actions
exceed the scope of the license. Id. at 1122.

I know very well what MDY contends.  This ruling states that they are WRONG.  What part of that don't you understand?

Originally posted by Mwaji

You  know normally when I hear Fanboi I can assure myself I can agree with the poster, you however seem die hard to defend game hacks. Alot of your posts are borderline fanboi anyway, now your defending game hacks and calling everyone else a fanboi. In this case WoW has always been in the lead in running out hacks, at least they do try to do that.

 

I'm not defending this cheat. It has always been against the ToU of WoW and a bannable offense. Go check out the FAQ on the MMO Glider website. EVEN THE DAMN MOD AUTHOR ADMITS IT.

However, this mod is NOT copyright breach regardless what the courts say.

{ Mod Edit }

Originally posted by Pappy13

Ok, Floppy which is it?  You either know how Glider works or you don't.  You can't argue both sides of law.
 

If Glider works just like any other mod then this ruling would end all mods.  It doesn't.  Mods are fine.  They always have been and in fact Blizzard encourages their use.

Glider does not work like a mod.  Glider works as a sort of mini operating system sitting below your own operating system.  For Glider to work IT has to run WoW, not your operating system.  This is done so that it can prevent WoW from reporting back to Blizzard.  It doesn't HAVE to change any of Blizzard's code, because it doesn't need to.  From WoW's perspective it works exactly the same, the only difference is that WoW is under Glider's control, not your operating system's control and therefore at the mercy of Glider.  If you think this is how addon's work, you are sadly mistaken.

If you are merely mistaken fine, just leave it be now.  If you continue to persist in your denials, it's clear you are clearly misrepresenting the facts about how Glider works.

Glider is a mod. It works on a technical level like every other mod. It is not a mini operating system, which is one of the dumbest and most ignorant things I've read in a WoW forum. And believe me, most people associated with WoW these days say some pretty dumb and stupid things.

Have you actually read the judgement or any arguments made by either side, pappy?

{ Mod Edit }

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by floppyface

Can someone explain why it is reasonable for Blizzard to get a court ruling to ban cheaters?
 

 

I could, but you wouldn't read it anyway so why bother.  You aren't interested in debating this, you are only interested in stirring up trouble and your not worth the trouble.

You can' do anything but bleat Blizzard's line because :

1). You may not understand this game

2). You havent spent more than 10 seconds reading Blizzard's "press release".

3). Dont understand copyright law or even your own countries DCMA laws.

{ Mod Edit }

Originally posted by floppyface

Originally posted by Pappy13

Ok, Floppy which is it?  You either know how Glider works or you don't.  You can't argue both sides of law.
 

If Glider works just like any other mod then this ruling would end all mods.  It doesn't.  Mods are fine.  They always have been and in fact Blizzard encourages their use.

Glider does not work like a mod.  Glider works as a sort of mini operating system sitting below your own operating system.  For Glider to work IT has to run WoW, not your operating system.  This is done so that it can prevent WoW from reporting back to Blizzard.  It doesn't HAVE to change any of Blizzard's code, because it doesn't need to.  From WoW's perspective it works exactly the same, the only difference is that WoW is under Glider's control, not your operating system's control and therefore at the mercy of Glider.  If you think this is how addon's work, you are sadly mistaken.

If you are merely mistaken fine, just leave it be now.  If you continue to persist in your denials, it's clear you are clearly misrepresenting the facts about how Glider works.

 

Glider is a mod. It works on a technical level like every other mod. It is not a mini operating system, which is one of the dumbest and most ignorant things I've read in a WoW forum. And believe me, most people associated with WoW these days say some pretty dumb and stupid things.

Have you actually read the judgement or any arguments made by either side, pappy?

{ Mod Edit }

 

 

Yes, I've read pretty much every single document.
 

Have you actually used Glider?  By your comments my guess is no.  And if i'm so far off base, would you care to explain how it is that Glider is able to prevent WoW from detecting it?  Or perhaps you can answer a few questions.

1)  Do you have to launch WoW from within the Glider program?

2)  If you attempt to launch WoW from the desktop (outside of Glider) what happens?

3)  Please tell me the name of 1 other mod which works in this same way.

Once you have answered those 3 questions I'll discuss it further with you.

Originally posted by floppyface   

Glider is a mod. It works on a technical level like every other mod.

I have programmed WoW addons and they do not work remotely how Glider works.  WoW addons are basicly scripts that the WoW client executes using a modified LUA interpreter.  In many ways the WoW client acts like an operating system for the addons by limiting their access to core functionality and terminating them when necessary.

The following is taken straight from the court's ruling.  I think it's pretty clear.

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/arizona/azdce/2:2006cv02555/322017/108/0.pdf

"MDY and Donnelly have designed Glider to avoid detection by Warden. Glider
software examines a user’s computer configuration and makes recommendations on what can
be done to minimize the risk of detection. Glider takes other specific steps to disguise its
presence. Blizzard has succeeded on three occasions in developing software that detected
Glider. Each time, Blizzard collected the identities of Glider users and banned them from
continuing to play WoW. Each time, MDY and Donnelly modified Glider to again avoid
detection by Warden. At present, Warden cannot detect the presence of Glider in WoW.
MDY and Donnelly have also taken steps to make it more difficult for WoW players to
recognize when another player is using Glider."

and

"Glider’s anti-detection features are essential to Glider’s commercial success.
Donnelly reverse-engineered Warden to learn how to make Glider undetectable."

And

"MDY and Donnelly argue that section 1201(a)(2) does not apply because the dynamic
nonliteral elements of the WoW game cannot be copyrighted, and Warden therefore does not
control access to a “work protected by this title” as required by the section. See 17 U.S.C.
§ 1201(a)(2)(A), (B), (C). This argument appears to be based on the Copyright Act’s
statement that “[c]opyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works
of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed,
from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly
or with the aid of a machine or device.” 17 U.S.C. § 1012(a) (emphasis added). MDY and
Donnelly also argue that the dynamic elements of the game cannot be copyrighted because
they are controlled by users of the game, not Blizzard. Courts have rejected both arguments.
Audio-visual displays of computer games are subject to copyright protection, and a player’s
interaction with the software of those games does not defeat this protection even though the
player’s actions in part determine what is displayed on the computer screen."

and

"As explained above, the resident component calls for the game client software
to examine portions of the user’s computer memory and report the results back to Blizzard’s
server. If the report reflects software associated with Glider or other bots, Warden can block
the user’s access to the server. Thus, as a user plays WoW, the resident component requires
the user’s computer to apply information (the results of the memory scan) to gain continuing
access to the server and the WoW game. MDY and Donnelly argued at trial that the
language of section 1201(a)(3)(B) should be read to require that the computer user – not the
computer – apply the required information, but they cite no authority for this narrow reading
and courts have held that computer-applied information satisfies the definition of section
1201(a)(3)(B)."

and

"The Court concludes that MDY has violated section 1201(a)(2) with respect to the
dynamic nonliteral elements of WoW. Warden constitutes a technological measure that
effectively controls access to such elements, and such elements are protected by copyright
law. Glider circumvents Warden by avoiding and bypassing its detection features."

It doesn't get much more straight forward than that.  No add-on does this.  Glider does.  That's why it violates copyright laws.  That's why Blizzard won the case.

Why so serious? Botting is fun

Originally posted by Ardus

Why so serious? Botting is fun

Yeah, botting is fun. I don't really have anything against botters. One of the reasons that I have been paying attention to this discussion is because I'm a bit familiar with botting myself.

No, I don't use bots. However my son did. He was in fact using Glider when his account got banned in the last go around with Glider. At the time I didn't know much about it and in fact I didn't know he was using Glider, but when his account got banned, I talked to him about it and found out that he was using one. I told him then he knew the risk he was taking and he wasn't upset about it and I wasn't upset with Blizzard for banning his account. I also did a little reading up on Glider, how it works, why Blizzard was sueing MDY and so forth.

But none of this discussion here really has anything to do with botting. This is about Terms of use agreements, copyright laws and what's legal and ethical for companies or individuals to do.

The fact is that Blizzard for whatever reason has deemed that using bots is against their terms of service agreement that everyone must agree to as a condition of playing their game. Their game is copyrighted and is protected by the copyright laws of this country. Blizzard thought that MDY and Michael Donnalley was breaking those laws by knowingly creating, distrubuting and profitting from creating a product that knowingly violated the terms of service agreement and they took him to court to prove it. They eventually won.

I thought it was a good decision because I don't think MDY should profit from creating a program that knowingly breaks the terms of service agreement that everyone signs. I couldn't care less that your average gamer bots. My son wasn't botting so that he could sell his stuff on the AH, he just was doing it so that he could get to 70 without having to spend the time playing. He was just being lazy as college age kids tend to be. I don't think it was really bothering anyone, but Blizzard says you can't do it and if you do and you're caught, you're gonna get banned, so I understood Blizzard's position and so did he.

So go ahead, bot if you want. If you get caught and banned, don't complain, you know the risks. But's that a minor issue really. The big picture is should a company like MDY and Michael Donnalley be allowed to create a product and profit from it that knowingly encourages you to break the TOS aggreement you signed? I don't think they should and neither did the judge.  And that is serious.