Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.  We're all friends here and we all love the game.  For the record I'm competetive as hell too... been living in NPC 0.0 for the better part of 4 years.. I think that's a requirement out there.  Don't think that I don't understand extremely well (said it already 3 times in this thread) that no one would EVER sell anything in eve without piracy and the NBSI folks.

I won't back down from the belief, however, that drawing pleasure from others' pain or loss (even virtual) says something about the fundamental makeup of a person.  I know (or hope at least) that everyone that plays the game refrains from engaging in destructive antisocial behavior in the real world regardless of in game tendencies.  But is it possible that this hints at what people might tend toward if the social contract didn't exist?  Lord of the flies was an interesting novel : )

I actually have a chance to do some post grad psych research and you guys might have helped me decide what I'm going to look into.

You guys might call me a carebear or what have you, but I'll fight like hell with reckless abandon if circumstances dictate in the game.  I just prefer to reserve my hot plasma for those that have "earned it" in my book. 

I think you're right. I definitely think your actions in-game say something about you offline, whether or not it's an exact reflection of your personality.

Originally posted by Muirin

Originally posted by Mal-Juun

Eve can be a very fun experience. Just remember that it has an extremely high learning curve and that most of the time, things are not as they appear 

 

LMAOOOOO so true...

hell yeah I'de hit it  

Originally posted by Enkindu

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.  We're all friends here and we all love the game.  For the record I'm competetive as hell too... been living in NPC 0.0 for the better part of 4 years.. I think that's a requirement out there.  Don't think that I don't understand extremely well (said it already 3 times in this thread) that no one would EVER sell anything in eve without piracy and the NBSI folks.

I won't back down from the belief, however, that drawing pleasure from others' pain or loss (even virtual) says something about the fundamental makeup of a person.  I know (or hope at least) that everyone that plays the game refrains from engaging in destructive antisocial behavior in the real world regardless of in game tendencies.  But is it possible that this hints at what people might tend toward if the social contract didn't exist?  Lord of the flies was an interesting novel : )

I actually have a chance to do some post grad psych research and you guys might have helped me decide what I'm going to look into.

You guys might call me a carebear or what have you, but I'll fight like hell with reckless abandon if circumstances dictate in the game.  I just prefer to reserve my hot plasma for those that have "earned it" in my book. 

You didn't make ME at all angry, friend...I mean, it's all fun and games when we play GAMES right?

I understand how you can say someone playing a game who draws pleasure from the suffering of others might be a bit...well...off...........but, in my case, and I'm sure in many other cases, the murder, well, it's for the money.

I mean, why feel bad for a player who spent all of their time and hard earned ISK on their ship?  They are playing EVE aren't they? They know what can happen in a game like this.....it's a risk....to me, that adds to the fun.

I can get popped as quickly as I can pop someone else.

But because I kill a bunch of folks in EVE for profit, I must have some sort of psychological issue right?  I mean, that is what you're saying isn't it?

Yet, I go and play LotRO and spend most of my time helping lowbies....I mean, I've been on Level 18 for like a month!...but I like it, it's fun to help out the new players...I mean, we were all there once.

So now I jump to EVE and I say "ya know, forget helping people, maybe I'll pop'em for cash."

It's fun to try something different.  That is part of the reason some of us play games...for me, that is why I roleplay.....I don't Roleplay as myself, I pretend to be someone I am not.....someone as far from me as possible.  I'm no pirate on the streets, and I'm also not a parnetless Ranger from Rohan (LotR for those who may not be familiar).

But seriously, you're not making us "criminals" mad......like you said, we are all friends here.  It's only a game....once again....let's have fun with it. 

Originally posted by socrates656

 

hell yeah I'de hit it  

How about a little respect?

You know, I didn't even think about the profit, and you're right. But my problem is with the folks who don't do it for any thing but a sadistic kick, knowing full-well the person they killed is going to be upset (And often look for the person to repeat the act). Sure, in a full-loot game, you can't really find out without asking, but it's often pretty easy to notice.

I mean, EVE wouldn't be any fun without pirates and the like, right? But I definitely think Darkfall will have a very different community.

Originally posted by rozenblade1

Originally posted by socrates656

 

hell yeah I'de hit it  

 

How about a little respect?

Yeah. Seriously, man. Show some tact.

Originally posted by MangoXII

You know, I didn't even think about the profit, and you're right. But my problem is with the folks who don't do it for any thing but a sadistic kick, knowing full-well the person they killed is going to be upset (And often look for the person to repeat the act). Sure, in a full-loot game, you can't really find out without asking, but it's often pretty easy to notice.

I mean, EVE wouldn't be any fun without pirates and the like, right? But I definitely think Darkfall will have a very different community.

I know what you are saying about those who kill entirely because they know they are ruining someone elses fun.

When people do that, well, that is a problem...that's just being a d**k head.

Doing it for profit in a game where money is everything...well, that's just playing the game.

I do hate griefers, they are immature brats who are so bored with their lives that they have to ruin other peoples fun.......I never do what I do to ruin another players fun, I just do it to progress in game.  I just choose to do it a different way than you.

But, you're cool

You see where the other gamers are coming from...

Well, I mean, I like the sandbox genre. Sure, I think of myself more as a good guy and would never attack anyone without first being attacked (Firm beliver in self defense only, online or off), but I like to have different types of players. Communities in sandboxes should be melting pots. Like you said, in EVE, you know the risks. You risk your current ship when you venture into low-security space.

I'd just like to see a lot more "defenders of justice," like myself, in said games. :P (I thought a lot of people actually liked Batman. Enough to emulate him, at least. ;P)

Originally posted by Enkindu

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.  We're all friends here and we all love the game.  For the record I'm competetive as hell too... been living in NPC 0.0 for the better part of 4 years.. I think that's a requirement out there.  Don't think that I don't understand extremely well (said it already 3 times in this thread) that no one would EVER sell anything in eve without piracy and the NBSI folks.

I won't back down from the belief, however, that drawing pleasure from others' pain or loss (even virtual) says something about the fundamental makeup of a person.  I know (or hope at least) that everyone that plays the game refrains from engaging in destructive antisocial behavior in the real world regardless of in game tendencies.  But is it possible that this hints at what people might tend toward if the social contract didn't exist?  Lord of the flies was an interesting novel : )

I actually have a chance to do some post grad psych research and you guys might have helped me decide what I'm going to look into.

You guys might call me a carebear or what have you, but I'll fight like hell with reckless abandon if circumstances dictate in the game.  I just prefer to reserve my hot plasma for those that have "earned it" in my book. 

YOu haven't ruffled any feathers that I am aware of, and not mine for sure.  You are right, you can tell something about a person by his ingame actions, but I still think you've got it wrong.
 

If I win at a game of chess, does the loser feel anguish?  Or football, does the losing team suffer for their loss?  Or basketball or hockey?  In the area of business, what about the CEO that made a bad choice and is pushed out of competition?  Does he feel pain?

And what does it say about the victor in any of these endeavors?  Should they not feel good about their victories?  Sure, gloating over them would be pretty low, but a person can relish a victory without gloating.

I just don't understand why you seem to think the victor is the bad guy just because he is the victor.

First I want to say that it reaffirms my belief in the maturity of the eve community that we can have a discussion where so many different viewpoints are held and still remain civil- even friendly.

Second, my apologies to anyone that feels we are belaboring certain points but I'm personally quite enjoying the exchange of ideas here.

Regarding the examples od chess/ football: those are both competitions with a single victory condition against a single opponent, where each player or team must accomplish the exact same thing to win: outmanuever or outscore your opponent.

Eve is quite a bit more complex: winning will have a different definition for everyone who plays.  For me, having to resort to combat with other players feels like a failure of diplomacy.

Tha "razors edge" in this debate comes down, perhaps, to the difference between NBSI and NRDS policies.  (For those reading who may not be familiar with these acronyms, NBSI stands for "Not Blue Shoot It" meaning you fire on anyone who does NOT have positive standings with you, NRDS stands for "Not Red Don't Shoot" meaning you only fire on people that have "earned" negative standings with you previously.)

I consider NBSI to be a weak policy, basically piracy by people who don't have the guts to call themselves pirates.  I compare it to someone having a neighborhood watch that keeps their street completely safe by shooting and killing anyone they don't recognize that happens by.  Effective, but absolutely barbaric.

NRDS requires at least attempting to communicate with anyone neutral before acting.  This often puts you at a tactical disadvantage.. I've lost ships this way on several occasions.. but I still think it's the right thing to do.  I'm reminded of a quote in the bio of a friend of mine: "always negotiate... it gives you time to reload."

If you haven't guessed by now, I have always viewed eve as a human nature laboratory first and a pretend internet spaceship game second.  If I seem overly provocative at times with my beliefs, that is part of my enjoyment  in the game... with no other goal than to try to better understand what motivates people to make the choices that they do.  Always remember the roleplaying can happen on many levels and serve multiple puposes.

So bottom line in this particular issue for me is this: When you see another player that you don't know, do you prefer to instantly make them your enemy/ prey or seek to gain another friend/ ally? Perhaps I'm off base- but since a game is something we do for fun, and we seem most likely to be our true selves in the pursuit of pleasure, don't you think this difference in game behavior might point to fundamentally different personality types in people?  I find it all very fascinating.

For a minute there I thought people were whining about pvp in a pvp game!

Originally posted by Enkindu

First I want to say that it reaffirms my belief in the maturity of the eve community that we can have a discussion where so many different viewpoints are held and still remain civil- even friendly.

Second, my apologies to anyone that feels we are belaboring certain points but I'm personally quite enjoying the exchange of ideas here.

Regarding the examples od chess/ football: those are both competitions with a single victory condition against a single opponent, where each player or team must accomplish the exact same thing to win: outmanuever or outscore your opponent.

Eve is quite a bit more complex: winning will have a different definition for everyone who plays.  For me, having to resort to combat with other players feels like a failure of diplomacy.

Tha "razors edge" in this debate comes down, perhaps, to the difference between NBSI and NRDS policies.  (For those reading who may not be familiar with these acronyms, NBSI stands for "Not Blue Shoot It" meaning you fire on anyone who does NOT have positive standings with you, NRDS stands for "Not Red Don't Shoot" meaning you only fire on people that have "earned" negative standings with you previously.)

I consider NBSI to be a weak policy, basically piracy by people who don't have the guts to call themselves pirates.  I compare it to someone having a neighborhood watch that keeps their street completely safe by shooting and killing anyone they don't recognize that happens by.  Effective, but absolutely barbaric.

NRDS requires at least attempting to communicate with anyone neutral before acting.  This often puts you at a tactical disadvantage.. I've lost ships this way on several occasions.. but I still think it's the right thing to do.  I'm reminded of a quote in the bio of a friend of mine: "always negotiate... it gives you time to reload."

If you haven't guessed by now, I have always viewed eve as a human nature laboratory first and a pretend internet spaceship game second.  If I seem overly provocative at times with my beliefs, that is part of my enjoyment  in the game... with no other goal than to try to better understand what motivates people to make the choices that they do.  Always remember the roleplaying can happen on many levels and serve multiple puposes.

So bottom line in this particular issue for me is this: When you see another player that you don't know, do you prefer to instantly make them your enemy/ prey or seek to gain another friend/ ally? Perhaps I'm off base- but since a game is something we do for fun, and we seem most likely to be our true selves in the pursuit of pleasure, don't you think this difference in game behavior might point to fundamentally different personality types in people?  I find it all very fascinating.

In my experience most "NRDS" alliances are always looking for some flimsy excuse like "hey that dude was in a corp last year for a week and that corp was in an alliance two years earlier who shot at us" or "hey that guy flew near that npc frigate wreck kill him!" just to get a quick gank, so they spout all the holier than thou crap but they just like using excuses.

I find that I don't need any fake excuses to engage in PvP in a PvP game.

Glad to see that my response to griefing/ganking/pewpew/whatever has ellicited so many responses, ranging from the 'i'm a do-gooder' types to the 'why should i need a reason to pvp in a pvp game'

Like mentioned before, I will blow up anything and everything I deem a target, whether they be neutral or red, flashy or non flashy, combat ship or indy/hauler/miner types. Why? Because it's fun! I hear the same stuff being mentioned over and over again about how people feel sick to the stomach at the thought of blowing some complete stranger up. Fine by me, but it's nice not having viewpoints pressed upon you. I have a lot of fun flying with my corp and alliance mates, and we all enjoy blowing stuff up, sometimes for profit, sometimes for the pretty colours when they explode.

Here are my thoughts in regard to stuff i blow up:

1. 'Defenseless' ships like miners/haulers/shuttles/rookieships etc: There is no 'defenseless' in eve, just as there is no 'safe' space in eve. Someone who is defenseless merely chooses to be that. Shuttles are often used to transport small but highly valuable cargo, such as blueprints, salvage etc. Same can be said for haulers. Given the chance, why would I not want to blow them up? The might drop good loot, which enables me to sell to make isk to replace the ships i lose in combat

2. Newbies/beginners: If I blow up a newbie's ship/pod, 1 of 3 possibilities might occur. The target in question could convo/mail me, asking for advice etc. That I will helpfully provide, giving them general tips on how to avoid getting killed in the same way in future. The target could also throw a hissy fit and/or role play an upstanding citizen who abhors criminal behaviour. (bonus points scored if i receive hatemail♥) Targets like this make me laugh as i reap their tears, and said tears fuel my desire to pewpew moar... Is this griefing? Yes to the extent that the person getting griefed and the griefer are the same person. Said target is choosing to get angry/sad/upset instead of learning from his mistakes. It's not my responsibility nor my desire to tell these people what kind of attitude they should have towards a game. Lastly and most commonly, the target will just ignore me. I dont care either way

3. 'Real combat' ships. Ships fitted out to pvp, whether well fitted or crap fitted provide me with a challenge. In fact, I enjoy fighting people who know what they're doing, on level terms or slightly imbalanced tipped in their favour. This allows me to hone my skills and if I pop, that's another lesson learned on how to survive.

tl;dr. I dont care about random strangers I meet ingame, I derive all the entertainment and social companionship from pilots ive flown with and know and trust. Everything that happens to you in eve is your own bloody fault, and u can either choose to learn from it or whine/cry and fuel my tears powered sense of humour. The decisions you make determine if you have fun or not. Simple as.

So, Enkindu,

I guess from your perspective the "real me" is the one that I portray while engaging in the fantasy of flying a space combat ship?  And the "me" that I portray around family, friends, and associates isn't the real me but one that I manufacture to cover up my true motives and desires?

It is hard for me to imagine that in over 50 years of my lifetime that these "true desires" wouldn't have slipped out, if only just a little.  But if you were to ask my family, friends, and associates if they have ever seen any indication toward the tendencies I portray in EVE you would be met with an unequivocal negative.

It also seems exceedingly strange to me that in every MMO game I have played before EVE, save one, I have been a 100% complete carebear, and in that 1 I was only about 85% carebear.  Heck, for the first half of my EVE career I was a carebear only character.

So, how do you explain that?  I think if you want to continue with your contentions about a person's true nature being revealed in what he does for pleasure you have to be able to adequately explain the real life example I have given.

I would maintain only that there is some part of you that revels in the virtual destruction and domination of others, even if it is a small part.  Do you deny this?? If so, why would you do it for fun then?

I've already said that I don't think anyone here is an antisocial psychopath, including you. I was just talking about personality traits and components, and how your choices in an environment COMPLETELY free from ramifications and consequences might demonstrate something about the inner workings of peoples' minds that we wouldn't otherwise see.

By the way, has there ever been a game other than EvE or UO where the term "carebear" had any real meaning? In wow, lotro, and every other MMO I've tried the PvP seemed essentially irrelevant (more like the chess game or sports examples you gave earlier).

I believe "griefing" is a matter of perspective and in the case of EVE people who feel "griefed" have the wrong attitude for an example if i get ganked by a 10 man gank squad who then smartbombed my pod I do not feel "griefed" because its part of the game but a carebear will cry his eyes out if someone in a frigate kills his cruiser when hes wandering around low sec and then they run to various forums and post about how the evil "Greifer" killed him without provocation and ruined his game experience.

In short people who feel "griefed" in EVE are doing it wrong.

This has been an interesting read and it has led me to the conclusion that there's not much point in someone who has not already been there for several years and has the ability to own noobs without consequences to start now. PvP does not = griefing in my book although some of you have gone to great lengths to rationalize otherwise.
 

So back to carebear PvP games for me where this sort of thing is prevented...or maybe even Darkfall as long as I get in right at the beginning and have a reasonable chance to fight back.