Hi, new to forums, not new to MMOs, not new to eve. I'll try to address all thequestions and problems as best as I can (ignoring whines and cries to change game to how YOU want it to be)

1. Eve isn't for everyone. Accept the fact that the eve universe is a dark, cold and harsh place. Unforgiving to those who make mistakes and rewards those to make the effort to learn about the game. Everytime you undock, there is a possibility that you WILL lose you ship. Suicide ganks, can baiting/flipping, wardecs etc are all too common.

2. Choices. The game is what you choose to make it. You can make it a boring grind by missioning or mining/whatever floats your boat, or spend the time u play to actually have fun, whereever you derive that fun from. I am part of a 'pirate' corp (but really we just like to blow stuff up and see some pretty explosions, maybe make some profit? newbie/pro/watever if i think I can pop it or it will be a goodfight, i'll go for it), I lose 100mil isk in ships and mods every 2-3 days, and have not done a single mission or mined for the past 6 months. I only have 1 account, my main. The other character slot is used as a hauler alt to bring my ships from hisec into lowsec.

Elaboration on #2 : Game mechanics allow theft, scamming, ransoming, everything u can think of, as long as it doesnt break the EULA. The majority of my isk is made via ransoms, followed by being fairly decent at poker and winning isk on that (evepoker ftw), and probably the occasional plex running to get some free faction gear (i like flying pimped ships) BE CREATIVE

3. Player skill > character skill. What this essentially means is, knowledge of the game, and how to do stuff in general gives you more chances of survival than having tons of skillpoints. Jumping into lowsec from hisec and dont wanna get gatecamped? Check map for ships blown up in the past hour, use a shuttle to scout ahead for your mates, then return to pick up your ship. Getting blown up with no chance of fighting back? Learn to use your directional scanner, learn to identify possible threats in local, learn to know when to engage and when not to engage. Jumped 'blind' into a gatecamp? Use the session change invisibility to check out what you're closest aligned to, and warp there in the hope u can get away. Or burn back to the gate. Or fit some stabs (istabs and warpcore stabs) With the recent changes to agility, frigates escape most gatecamps with ease.

4. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose/Don't get too attached to a ship. If it takes you 5 days of mission running to replace a lost ship, then you're probably doing it wrong. If you feel butthurt over losing a ship, remember, it's just a toy. BTW, I can't afford to lose my deadspace fitted faction frigate (about 200mil slapped on a frigate that performs worse than most t1 frigates, but it's pimp cos it's rare). Yet, I understand that when I undocked, I have to accept the fact that I will probably lose this ship. Can i afford to replace it? Not immediately, Can i afford to lose it? Yes, most definitely.

5. For new players, the key is specialisation. Find out what you enjoy doing, and train up skills for that ship (including support skills). Diversify a bit to shake things up from time to time. A 40mil SP pilot with barely anything in Battleship related skills (and poor ingame knowledge of game mechanics, bad fittings etc) will most like lose it to a 2mil 'noob' in a frigate/cruiser. Higher skillpoints just mean u can fly more ships effectively.

6. Learning skills. Granted, training learning skills early on are VERY beneficial in the long run. However, train up some other skills in order to try out everything the game to offer, makes the game less boring.

7. Most other MMO's set a goal for a player. However, they also limit your character the further u progress. Yes, u might have 10000+ more skills/spells/whatever than someone 20 levels behind u, but most MMO's will force you to choose a class/profession to specialise in. In EVE, the longer you play, the more options you have, it gets better and better with time.

8. Buying isk. The reason why we LOL when we kill a poorly fitted player in a BS, even if it's fitted with faction mods, is that most of them are clueless and dont try to learn the game, and instead take the easy option of getting isk to buy their poorly skilled and poorly fitted ships.

9. Getting help. EVE rewards those that help themselves. Got blown up? Convo the person who blew you up and ask how he did it, how u can avoid it in future. Most likely they will give you a few tips (unless you start off by mentioning mothers, genitalia etc), and some may even offer to take you under their wing. Asking in NPC corp chat can produce varied results (carebears give bad advice), it's a matter of trial and error. Another option is to check out teaching corps like Eve University, where there are plenty of helpful people who will be happy to give you advice. Agony Unleashed also provide basic and advanced PVP courses (for a fee). Read up on officail forums.

Sorry wall of text/bad grammar/repetitions (just means it's important)/stuff/watever. It's 6am here. My eyes got smartbombed

tl;dr dont fly what u cant afford to lose, read up more about the game and you will find yourself enjoying the game more and more as u play.

Final advice for newbies in general: Start a trial, try to join a corp early and try all possible aspects of eve open to you at the time. Once you know what you want to focus in, either start a new character and use the knowledge gained or carry on with your 1st character if you're happy with it. (trials dont cost anything)

Definition: carebear = player who is risk-averse, and whines to get game changed to suit that risk averse lifestyle. Industrialist = Miner/manufacturers/researchers/traders etc who understand that there is inherent risk to the game. Pirate = someone who pewpew for profit. PVPer = someone who pewpew for lulz. Antipirate = roleplaying idiots

edit: just wanted to add, many MMO's make things fun for beginners, but how many of them keep their playerbase? They normally have high turnovers as people get bored easily. CCP do not want to 'grab new customers', they want to keep the ones that like their game playing for many years to come, hence the slower rate of growth but consistenly increasing number of suscribers AFAIK Eve has the highest retention of players, and most people who play the game and like it, stick with it (unsourced, cant be bothered to search)

How do you make it fun and exciting and easy to get into a game that takes a month to learn basics and has meaningfull death penalty and half of fun is interaction with other players? Puzzle me this.

People want to try out PvP few days old and are saddened that they do not succeed. It is like WoW players going arena at lvl 10 - and that is not overstatement, they do not know nor have the very basics and will not for quite some time. There are PvP opportunities for newbies now but people have too high expectations for their very low investment.

Part of issue is what makes EvE great yet boring at the same time - huge part of PvP is outside of direct combat. Direct combat in any MMO can be dominated by bots and bot assisted play but no bot will tell you when and how to strike based on incoplete information. 2 vs 2 fight is not EvE PvP; 1 vs 8 is and you can win it without firing a shot.

The truth is EvE is niche game and by definition niche is not for everyone and once it tries it is not longer niche and risks failing miserably. It could be more newbie friendly but I would not bet it would bring high retention.

Edit: I am quite a carebear (so i feel a bit offended by the pro pirate above). The game is carebear friendly if you want to play it that way. Actually, it is one of the most carebear friendly games. You can play it safe, but endlessly grinding gear with low durability and then solo running into raid boss (to use fantasy MMO parrarel) is plain stupid and that you do not know what you are doing is not making it any less stupid.

Originally posted by Tyrrhon

How do you make it fun and exciting and easy to get into a game that takes a month to learn basics and has meaningfull death penalty and half of fun is interaction with other players? Puzzle me this. Takes slightly less than a day to do some proper research on this new game they're trying out, eve doesn't promise 'instant gratification'.

People want to try out PvP few days old and are saddened that they do not succeed. It is like WoW players going arena at lvl 10 - and that is not overstatement, they do not know nor have the very basics and will not for quite some time. There are PvP opportunities for newbies now but people have too high expectations for their very low investment. There are many excellent guides on how to do things from the getgo, all available on the EVE-O forums, and in various pdf files etc.

Part of issue is what makes EvE great yet boring at the same time - huge part of PvP is outside of direct combat. Direct combat in any MMO can be dominated by bots and bot assisted play but no bot will tell you when and how to strike based on incoplete information. 2 vs 2 fight is not EvE PvP; 1 vs 8 is and you can win it without firing a shot. wait wat? Dont really understand what you mean by this

The truth is EvE is niche game and by definition niche is not for everyone and once it tries it is not longer niche and risks failing miserably. It could be more newbie friendly but I would not bet it would bring high retention. Most people are just to damn lazy to do the tutorial and read up/get help from the numerous guides, hence the reason they give up. In fact, some people only 'get' it after a few tries, and realise how good a game it is. Some people don't, but screw them anyway

 

Wait so is this whine post? lemme check..Eve is cool, c/d?

I love how you actually go backwards in time as your skill increases by that graph.

The learning cliff takes a bit of a wallclimber to mount, unless you can find a couple of friends on top to drop you a rope-ladder, or get a few friends below to hold your ladder steady while you climb.

To put it more bluntly, the secret of EVE is friends. Have some. When you do, you'll find that things are much more interesting and easier. Find a vet to befriend, and you will be able to ask someone for reliable advice.

Originally posted by Resetgun

LOL, great graph, and i believe it is also true.

Originally posted by cosy

 

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Originally posted by Guillight

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Originally posted by cosy

 

 

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Originally posted by Kexin
The learning skill is grossly overpowered and need to die. It is unfun, and BORING. There's nothing worst than having a hundred people tell you in rookie chat to max your learning which can take up to a week, when as a new player you should be training more exciting skills to get you into the game.
As for general improvements to the game, I have no idea where to start. The game is so utterly brutal on noobs like myself that it remind me of the History Channel show on the Spartans and how they throw unworthy babies off a cliff. But even that is too carebare compared to EvE.

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go and play wow

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It's people like Cosy that cause EVE the bad repuation.

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dude wake up i give him a standard answer at a cry post about learning curve and natural selection in eve, seams you dont really saw that dont you
try harder next time

 

Ps: this thread is not why your gf dont play eve is about content for n00bs

LOL .. we are talking about a GAME here. Games should NOT have steep learning curves. It is not teaching people to do math or anything like that. It is painfully OBVIOUS that CCP knows this is a problem and is trying to solve it in the next patch.

Ironically, i found that Eve's early PvE to be too EASY. There is no challenge and no need to use anything but your standard weapons. The progression curve is just not calibrated properly. Heck, you die once in a while during the early levels of WOW if you pull the mobs wrong. That never happens in Eve in early missions and complexes.

That is not fun at all.

And yes, that waiting for skill thing needs to go. The reason why i am getting no where in my trial is that i have to wait for skills to build.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

LOL .. we are talking about a GAME here. Games should NOT have steep learning curves. It is not teaching people to do math or anything like that. It is painfully OBVIOUS that CCP knows this is a problem and is trying to solve it in the next patch.

HAHAHA, I laughed at that green part. Lets see some of my favorite games have a massively steep learning curve:

Classic Battletech: over 1700 pages of rules to learn so far and still not done, Insanely complex system, from infantry morale, to combat damage repair table including not fully fixing the problem, to how to handle a plane going out of control and crashing into the ground from orbit.

Warhammer fantasy/40k: 200 pages of rule each with massive amounts of complex rule interactions between wargear and units rules.

same can go with Flames of War, Warmachine, AT-40/Confrontation, and I'm sure a few more that I have missed.

In fact most of the games once you get past the the quote "Toys'R"Us" games are massively complex and have steap learning curves. The only thing that EVe does not have is an easy way to get players started on that learning curve, and its the only thing that CCP is doing in the next patch, putting a little bit of dirt to the bottom of the Cliff so that you can gain a few feet before you have to start climbing.

Games will only not have a steep learning curve if the game decides to dumb itself down to the point where you can understand everything in a very short time. The more games take into effect more things the more complex they will be and the steeper that the learning curve must be if you want to get up to speed with the vets knowledge of the game system.

Please stop bringing PVE into a discussion about EVE Nariusseldon, We've went over that numerous times, though to be honest PVE in all MMOs is about as exciting as watching paint dry, Figure script out for boss, figure counter tactic for group, Farm boss. Lets be honest till they put a player/GM/Volunteer in control of that boss PVE isn't really that great. You can die early on in EVE just as easily as WoW if you screw up your aggro in missions. Done it many of times, and just like WoW once you learn the patterns and tricks everything becomes just another farmable target.

Ironically the most difficult PVE experience I ever had was LoTRO when fighting player controlled mosters, they don't follow a script that you can analyze and defeat easily. Get out and try some PVP, as soon as possible, don't wait for X skill to train it more and likely won't help you anyway because the first fight you get into you won't have a clue what hit you, or how it did. You'll have to get up to speed on the 100+ ships and the 100+ module types and thier strength weaknesses and interactions.

Originally posted by Nicoli

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

LOL .. we are talking about a GAME here. Games should NOT have steep learning curves. It is not teaching people to do math or anything like that. It is painfully OBVIOUS that CCP knows this is a problem and is trying to solve it in the next patch.

 

HAHAHA, I laughed at that green part. Lets see some of my favorite games have a massively steep learning curve:

Classic Battletech: over 1700 pages of rules to learn so far and still not done, Insanely complex system, from infantry morale, to combat damage repair table including not fully fixing the problem, to how to handle a plane going out of control and crashing into the ground from orbit.

Warhammer fantasy/40k: 200 pages of rule each with massive amounts of complex rule interactions between wargear and units rules.

same can go with Flames of War, Warmachine, AT-40/Confrontation, and I'm sure a few more that I have missed.

In fact most of the games once you get past the the quote "Toys'R"Us" games are massively complex and have steap learning curves. The only thing that EVe does not have is an easy way to get players started on that learning curve, and its the only thing that CCP is doing in the next patch, putting a little bit of dirt to the bottom of the Cliff so that you can gain a few feet before you have to start climbing.

Games will only not have a steep learning curve if the game decides to dumb itself down to the point where you can understand everything in a very short time. The more games take into effect more things the more complex they will be and the steeper that the learning curve must be if you want to get up to speed with the vets knowledge of the game system.

Please stop bringing PVE into a discussion about EVE Nariusseldon, We've went over that numerous times, though to be honest PVE in all MMOs is about as exciting as watching paint dry, Figure script out for boss, figure counter tactic for group, Farm boss. Lets be honest till they put a player/GM/Volunteer in control of that boss PVE isn't really that great. You can die early on in EVE just as easily as WoW if you screw up your aggro in missions. Done it many of times, and just like WoW once you learn the patterns and tricks everything becomes just another farmable target.

Ironically the most difficult PVE experience I ever had was LoTRO when fighting player controlled mosters, they don't follow a script that you can analyze and defeat easily. Get out and try some PVP, as soon as possible, don't wait for X skill to train it more and likely won't help you anyway because the first fight you get into you won't have a clue what hit you, or how it did. You'll have to get up to speed on the 100+ ships and the 100+ module types and thier strength weaknesses and interactions.

No wonder no games you mentioned are popular beyond niche. Something like Halo 3 you can just jump in and play is way more entertaining than those you mentioned, and much easier to get into.

And oh, it is a free world so i bring up whatever i want to bring up.

Plus, CCP has open the door for PvE discussion when they try to improve the PvE side of things, evidently in their press releases. Are you saying you don't care about what they are doing?

YOU don't like PvE does not mean that others don't. In fact, people who like PvE probably outnumber you 100 to 1. And luckily, developers are not like you .. they actually pay attention to players and what they find fun.

I guess a nice way to answer the question asked would be to say most new folks to Eve are concidered cannon fodder or a source of incom to corperations. Unless or untill a pve server is added this will continue.

Originally posted by Elsabolts

I guess a nice way to answer the question asked would be to say most new folks to Eve are concidered cannon fodder or a source of incom to corperations. Unless or untill a pve server is added this will continue.

Oh you know this thread is decent now.

Elsa tossed in his same old "Pve server" comment.

lol

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Elsabolts

I guess a nice way to answer the question asked would be to say most new folks to Eve are concidered cannon fodder or a source of incom to corperations. Unless or untill a pve server is added this will continue.

 

Oh you know this thread is decent now.

Elsa tossed in his same old "Pve server" comment.

lol

no doubt, EVE is saved.

Ahh common guys smile alittle will ya. This stuff over BOB is gonna hurt em more then me saying they need a pve server. I did notice you did not say i was full of shit about how new folks are treated though.

Originally posted by Elsabolts

Ahh common guys smile alittle will ya. This stuff over BOB is gonna hurt em more then me saying they need a pve server. I did notice you did not say i was full of shit about how new folks are treated though.

ok, let's try this...

1 do NOT load a freighter down with billions of isk and afk fly from point A to point B

2 have your 1 person corp join an alliance, preferably an industrial-based alliance, or just make an alliance yourself.

3 do not leave high sec

and there you have your pve server, already in place.   you just have to play semi-intelligently.  if you play stupidly, yeah, you'll die, pvp or pve.

edit for 2 - or join/stay in an npc corp.

honestly, what other pvp-free play are you looking for, within the confines of the new eden universe?  if you choose the player alliance, you can even have (relatively safe) POS.

Originally posted by Elsabolts

Ahh common guys smile alittle will ya. This stuff over BOB is gonna hurt em more then me saying they need a pve server. I did notice you did not say i was full of shit about how new folks are treated though.

Did you really just say this BoB / Goon thing is gonna hurt CCP ? Really ? Man you gotta be kidding me this is bringing new players to the game, not driving them away.

I'll say you are full of shit about how new folks are treated. New players in Eve are treated the same or better than new players in any other game. You say new players are cannon fodder or source of income, this is true in any mmo. Guilds recruit players that will help them progress, this is especially true when it comes to classes that are badly needed like healers. Ive played healers in other mmos and let me tell you that people shit all over healers. The difference here is that when I new player gets blown up they run off and cry and blame CCP for being mean and the game is full of griefers. Ive seen so many players hand over money to new players and help them out. The only thing that the older players like myself ask is that the new player be patient with the game and show willingness to listen and learn. This is not WoW or some other lame ass levelling treadmill game where people can be power levelled or twinked out. Ive seen more asshole twinked out douchebags in WoW talking complete shit to new players and calling them n00bs and saying l2play and all those other bullshit internet catch phrases.

So yeah, Elsa you are full of shit and you will never see your stupid fucking pve server.

Originally posted by cosy

 

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Originally posted by Kexin
The learning skill is grossly overpowered and need to die. It is unfun, and BORING. There's nothing worst than having a hundred people tell you in rookie chat to max your learning which can take up to a week, when as a new player you should be training more exciting skills to get you into the game.
As for general improvements to the game, I have no idea where to start. The game is so utterly brutal on noobs like myself that it remind me of the History Channel show on the Spartans and how they throw unworthy babies off a cliff. But even that is too carebare compared to EvE.

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go and play wow

A steep and long learning curve, doesnt mean it cant have a decent tutorial that tells you about the basics.  Itll make the trial more efficient in recruiting new subs. No need to be elitist about it.

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Originally posted by Elsabolts
Ahh common guys smile alittle will ya. This stuff over BOB is gonna hurt em more then me saying they need a pve server. I did notice you did not say i was full of shit about how new folks are treated though.

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you know, TQ is already PVE also. You stay in the rookie corp and you can kill NPC and run mission all day and as long as you please. Then once you grow balls and want to really play the game, you leave that corp and join the real fight. There is no need for ANOTHER Eve Server....

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by cosy

 

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Originally posted by Kexin
The learning skill is grossly overpowered and need to die. It is unfun, and BORING. There's nothing worst than having a hundred people tell you in rookie chat to max your learning which can take up to a week, when as a new player you should be training more exciting skills to get you into the game.
As for general improvements to the game, I have no idea where to start. The game is so utterly brutal on noobs like myself that it remind me of the History Channel show on the Spartans and how they throw unworthy babies off a cliff. But even that is too carebare compared to EvE.

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go and play wow

 

A steep and long learning curve, doesnt mean it cant have a decent tutorial that tells you about the basics.  Itll make the trial more efficient in recruiting new subs. No need to be elitist about it.

 

Umm, have you tried the tutorial ? I actually just did it yesterday for something to do and it's actually quite good now. It teaches you the basics of the game and then you just have to consider the rest of your game time a tutorial. Been playing on and off since beta and there's still stuff I am learning in the game.

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by cosy

 

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Originally posted by Kexin
The learning skill is grossly overpowered and need to die. It is unfun, and BORING. There's nothing worst than having a hundred people tell you in rookie chat to max your learning which can take up to a week, when as a new player you should be training more exciting skills to get you into the game.
As for general improvements to the game, I have no idea where to start. The game is so utterly brutal on noobs like myself that it remind me of the History Channel show on the Spartans and how they throw unworthy babies off a cliff. But even that is too carebare compared to EvE.

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go and play wow

 

A steep and long learning curve, doesnt mean it cant have a decent tutorial that tells you about the basics.  Itll make the trial more efficient in recruiting new subs. No need to be elitist about it.

 

 

Umm, have you tried the tutorial ? I actually just did it yesterday for something to do and it's actually quite good now. It teaches you the basics of the game and then you just have to consider the rest of your game time a tutorial. Been playing on and off since beta and there's still stuff I am learning in the game.

Then y is CCP trying to create a new "new user experience"? Obviously it is not good enough. During my trial, i found the tutorial useful/clear but EXTREMELY boring. They should learn from how other PvE centric games do it. Make it a fun quest line is the best way to go.

First off did I say that the tutorial is perfect ? No, no I didn't. Second off of course it's boring. It's a TUTORIAL.

"They should learn from how other PvE centric games do it."
Did you even read this after you typed it ? key word in there is PVE. Eve is a PVP game so why would they look at a PVE game and copy their tutorial system ? All those other games are so simple you don't even need a damn tutorial to learn how to play anyways. Eves tutorial is far beyond anyone elses that I have seen.

Bascially what i'm getting from you is that you are one of these people that ex[ect CCP to shoehorn a simple PVE games tutorial system into the most complex game on the market. Yeah ok that's really gonna work. let me guess you probably think that the customer is always right too dont you ?