Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

What we seem to have are quotes about technical and resource problems, quotes about losing devs and documentation regarding JTL code, and evidence of a deleted thread in which Smed allegedly said they can't use pre-cu code anymore.

Your question is, "they lost the code?"  It seems to me that this is the only answer available.  It may not be the specific answer you were looking for, but it does seem to answer the question as well as possible.  Am I missing something?

Oh, btw, I still go with the "lost the devs with the code expertise" conclusion, based on all available evidence :).

I do think one of Smed's poorly worded comments gave people the impression that they lost the code, but I do not think this is accurate.

I've just re-read some of your comments.  I think we're posting at the same time lol :)

 

 

Then they didn't lose the code, and never said they did. Therefore, if Smed said that they "lost the code" in some sooper sekrit meeting, as Perilous (I believe that was his name), stated in that other thread --  he never said it anywhere else.

I'm back where I started, more or less.

I never heard them say they lost the code, no one can prove that they did, and it's looking more and more like they never said it.

Some guy and other people are claiming otherwise.

Again my question was never about what we or anyone believes as such, but about what SOE/LA said and what they haven't said.

Where people seem to have got the coding problem idea:

"I understand that there are technical issues with re-instating certain portions of the old game code...but that is what the players want. Players never wanted the CU or the NGE. (that is an indisputable fact) Even Smed admits on the SOE/SWG forums that the game is "not fun to play" and that the NGE was a mistake..."

See, now this is what makes me laugh, such a niaive outlook on what they do. Those 'bits of code' as you call them aren't even compatable with the NGE as far as SOE have told the SWG community. That's why the game was down for the best part of a weekend when they rolled out the NGE.

It's a completely different engine apparently, so they can't just bolt Pre or Post CU bits on. This is why I get frustrated. People who can't even be bothered to reseach the basic facts, but are willing to ridicule those of us that have read what the Devs wrote..."

This is from a LucasArts forum around the time of the rollback demands.  It references comments on the now wiped boards that coding issues were a barrier to a rollback.

So, again we have "technology" issues, we have "bits of code" preventing a rollback, and we have missing documentation on JTL code.

If someone is telling you in another thread that there were technology issues, code incompatabilities, developer turnover and a lack of documentation; I think they're correct.  Smed also said clearly that SOE couldn't "support" pre-cu servers and NGE servers at the same time.

If, however, someone is oversimplifying matters, and claiming that SOE simply "lost" the entire pre-cu code; I think you can conclude that it's just that--an oversimplification of a complex issue, that has probably been purposely obscured for P.R. reasons. 

Well that was actually fun lol, I love research projects--yeah I'm sick :P.  O.k. sleep time.  Laterz Fisher!

P.S. I think a part of the confusion around this is that SOE has a habit of giving out incomplete and/or contradictory information when they're asked about their screw-ups.  Take for instance Smed's sensitive commentary on the pain-staking decision making behind cutting creature handler.  Then we get Helios' revelation that Rubenfield just said "cut 'em" one day, and they were gone.  All this because pets messed up the targetting reticle. 

Then you have Torres comments about all the indepth player feedback that was used to generate the NGE; followed by Jeff's revelation that their focus groups had no current players.

Then you have Smed saying that they weren't looking for a new population at the expense of the the old, and Rubenfield comes straight out and says that's exactly what they knew they were risking.  Koster said similar things also.

So, why this ongoing debate about reasons for no rollback?  Largely I think it's because SOE folks (past and present) offer a wide range of sometimes contradictory explanations.

What do I learn from this?  Frankly, not much about why there was no rollbacks.  I have learned, however, that honest and clear communication from people associated with SOE is as rare as feathers on a pig.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by Kells

I have no expertise in this area, but I find it hard to believe they lost the code.

 

Oh I don't know if anyone believes they lost the code; even the people who claim they read that they said they lost the code don't seem to actually believe them.

What they have implied is that the code is a mess; it is complicated. The people who understood it are long gone, and the current DEVs couldn't hope to make sense of it.

No one, not LA nor SOE is willing to pay for the talent to figure out the code so they could support it, therefore classic servers are "impossible."

The question is: did they ever say they "lost the code" or not? I say no.

Because he didn't say they "lost the code". He made it sound like they hadn't kept a backup of the NGE code or something. Not that they went looking for it and couldn't find it.

I still don't know why this is so important to you. Enough people remember it that you must believe they said something about not having the NGE could available to them.

If you're just focusing on the word "lost" then you're never going to find anything.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

What we seem to have are quotes about technical and resource problems, quotes about losing devs and documentation regarding JTL code, and evidence of a deleted thread in which Smed allegedly said they can't use pre-cu code anymore.

Your question is, "they lost the code?"  It seems to me that this is the only answer available.  It may not be the specific answer you were looking for, but it does seem to answer the question as well as possible.  Am I missing something?

Oh, btw, I still go with the "lost the devs with the code expertise" conclusion, based on all available evidence :).

I do think one of Smed's poorly worded comments gave people the impression that they lost the code, but I do not think this is accurate.

I've just re-read some of your comments.  I think we're posting at the same time lol :)

 

 

Then they didn't lose the code, and never said they did. Therefore, if Smed said that they "lost the code" in some sooper sekrit meeting, as Perilous (I believe that was his name), stated in that other thread --  he never said it anywhere else.

I'm back where I started, more or less.

I never heard them say they lost the code, no one can prove that they did, and it's looking more and more like they never said it.

Some guy and other people are claiming otherwise.

Again my question was never about what we or anyone believes as such, but about what SOE/LA said and what they haven't said.

 

Where people seem to have got the coding problem idea:

"I understand that there are technical issues with re-instating certain portions of the old game code...but that is what the players want. Players never wanted the CU or the NGE. (that is an indisputable fact) Even Smed admits on the SOE/SWG forums that the game is "not fun to play" and that the NGE was a mistake..."

See, now this is what makes me laugh, such a niaive outlook on what they do. Those 'bits of code' as you call them aren't even compatable with the NGE as far as SOE have told the SWG community. That's why the game was down for the best part of a weekend when they rolled out the NGE.

It's a completely different engine apparently, so they can't just bolt Pre or Post CU bits on. This is why I get frustrated. People who can't even be bothered to reseach the basic facts, but are willing to ridicule those of us that have read what the Devs wrote..."

This is from a LucasArts forum around the time of the rollback demands.  It references comments on the now wiped boards that coding issues were a barrier to a rollback.

So, again we have "technology" issues, we have "bits of code" preventing a rollback, and we have missing documentation on JTL code.

If someone is telling you in another thread that there were technology issues, code incompatabilities, developer turnover and a lack of documentation; I think they're correct.  Smed also said clearly that SOE couldn't "support" pre-cu servers and NGE servers at the same time.

If, however, someone is oversimplifying matters, and claiming that SOE simply "lost" the entire pre-cu code; I think you can conclude that it's just that--an oversimplification of a complex issue, that has probably been purposely obscured for P.R. reasons. 

Well that was actually fun lol, I love research projects--yeah I'm sick :P.  O.k. sleep time.  Laterz Fisher!

P.S. I think a part of the confusion around this is that SOE has a habit of giving out incomplete and/or contradictory information when they're asked about their screw-ups.  Take for instance Smed's sensitive commentary on the pain-staking decision making behind cutting creature handler.  Then we get Helios' revelation that Rubenfield just said "cut 'em" one day, and they were gone.  All this because pets messed up the targetting reticle. 

Then you have Torres comments about all the indepth player feedback that was used to generate the NGE; followed by Jeff's revelation that their focus groups had no current players.

Then you have Smed saying that they weren't looking for a new population at the expense of the the old, and Rubenfield comes straight out and says that's exactly what they knew they were risking.  Koster said similar things also.

So, why this ongoing debate about reasons for no rollback?  Largely I think it's because SOE folks (past and present) offer a wide range of sometimes contradictory explanations.

What do I learn from this?  Frankly, not much about why there was no rollbacks.  I have learned, however, that honest and clear communication from people associated with SOE is as rare as feathers on a pig.

He said in that thread, and many others have repeated, that Smedley said in a secret meeting with people that they "lost the code." That is what this thread is about. Specific statements that make that claim.

Originally posted by kunoulovesme

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by Kells

I have no expertise in this area, but I find it hard to believe they lost the code.

 

Oh I don't know if anyone believes they lost the code; even the people who claim they read that they said they lost the code don't seem to actually believe them.

What they have implied is that the code is a mess; it is complicated. The people who understood it are long gone, and the current DEVs couldn't hope to make sense of it.

No one, not LA nor SOE is willing to pay for the talent to figure out the code so they could support it, therefore classic servers are "impossible."

The question is: did they ever say they "lost the code" or not? I say no.

Because he didn't say they "lost the code". He made it sound like they hadn't kept a backup of the NGE code or something. Not that they went looking for it and couldn't find it.

I still don't know why this is so important to you. Enough people remember it that you must believe they said something about not having the NGE could available to them.

If you're just focusing on the word "lost" then you're never going to find anything.

It's not very important to me -- someone in another thread made what appears to me to be a false statement -- he said that smedley specifically said they lost the code. I am questioning that. This erupted into a larger conversation. That is all.

Why should you care how important things are to me? what has that got to do with the purpose of the thread? Pretty much sounds like the "get over it" argument which comes from SOE supporters. Not an argument at all, just an attempt to shut people up.

Plus I am not focusing on a word such as "lost" I am focusing on an idea. Did they or did they not say they no longer have the code? I never heard them say that. Whether they lost it or shapeshhifting reptilians from the fourth dimension came and erased it is of no import.

It is also of no import whether the statement is true or not The question is what did they say. I never saw them say what Perilous claimed Smedley said in their secret meeting. He claimed Smedley said so in a secret meeting, and publicly. I am questioning that.

This is the thread it started in:

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/221179/page/6

while i dont remember the exact statement it went something like:

"a rollback isnt possible because we no longer have the code" or words to that effect. i took it to be a lie of convenience. when pressed about this i think he answered along the lines of " the original devs who understand the code no longer work here" or something. a cop out really.

Originally posted by rage9000

while i dont remember the exact statement it went something like:

 

"a rollback isnt possible because we no longer have the code" or words to that effect. i took it to be a lie of convenience. when pressed about this i think he answered along the lines of " the original devs who understand the code no longer work here" or something. a cop out really.

I don't  recall seeing Smed or anyone say the first part of what you are saying ("we no longer have the code"), but I do remember several DEVs implying the second part.

I know it's all a copout, but what I am wondering is what did he say exactly. No one seems to be able to remember that, and no one seems to have saved it.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by rage9000

while i dont remember the exact statement it went something like:

 

"a rollback isnt possible because we no longer have the code" or words to that effect. i took it to be a lie of convenience. when pressed about this i think he answered along the lines of " the original devs who understand the code no longer work here" or something. a cop out really.

I don't  recall seeing Smed or anyone say the first part of what you are saying ("we no longer have the code"), but I do remember several DEVs implying the second part.

I know it's all a copout, but what I am wondering is what did he say exactly. No one seems to be able to remember that, and no one seems to have saved it.

he did. it was on the oforums. right after the nge he tried a little damage control. it wasn't so much that he was saying they no longer had the code but rather they didn't understand it.

probably why nobody has the quote is he made sure to do this right before the forums were reworked and it no longer exists.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by rage9000

while i dont remember the exact statement it went something like:

 

"a rollback isnt possible because we no longer have the code" or words to that effect. i took it to be a lie of convenience. when pressed about this i think he answered along the lines of " the original devs who understand the code no longer work here" or something. a cop out really.

I don't  recall seeing Smed or anyone say the first part of what you are saying ("we no longer have the code"), but I do remember several DEVs implying the second part.

I know it's all a copout, but what I am wondering is what did he say exactly. No one seems to be able to remember that, and no one seems to have saved it.

Smed's comments:

"Unfortunately we also can't put up a pre-NGE (or PRE-CU) version of SWG. That would require us to support 2 separate versions of the codebase and we're just not able to do that. We couldn't simply put up a version like this unsupported.. what if someone found a really bad exploit?"

It seems from this quote (and it is a direct quote) that the issue wasn't lost code, it was an unwillingness to support "2 separate versions of the codebase."  He also indicates clearly that the pre-cu version would be "unsupported."  Why it would be unsupported would be that they were unwilling or unable to dedicate the necessary development assets to maintain the pre-cu code.  I expect it was both.

If you add to this the forum comments about missing bits of code, the comments about losing devs, and the comments about no longer having code documentation.  I think your urban legend of the "lost" code is largely solved ^_^.  Damn that was fun lol, ok now I have to do some real work :P

Originally posted by rage9000

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by rage9000

while i dont remember the exact statement it went something like:

 

"a rollback isnt possible because we no longer have the code" or words to that effect. i took it to be a lie of convenience. when pressed about this i think he answered along the lines of " the original devs who understand the code no longer work here" or something. a cop out really.

I don't  recall seeing Smed or anyone say the first part of what you are saying ("we no longer have the code"), but I do remember several DEVs implying the second part.

I know it's all a copout, but what I am wondering is what did he say exactly. No one seems to be able to remember that, and no one seems to have saved it.

he did. it was on the oforums. right after the nge he tried a little damage control. it wasn't so much that he was saying they no longer had the code but rather they didn't understand it.

 

probably why nobody has the quote is he made sure to do this right before the forums were reworked and it no longer exists.

Saying people do not understand something is not the same thing as saying it no longer exists. Two completely different things that are barely related except that the net result would be similar.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by rage9000

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by rage9000

while i dont remember the exact statement it went something like:

 

"a rollback isnt possible because we no longer have the code" or words to that effect. i took it to be a lie of convenience. when pressed about this i think he answered along the lines of " the original devs who understand the code no longer work here" or something. a cop out really.

I don't  recall seeing Smed or anyone say the first part of what you are saying ("we no longer have the code"), but I do remember several DEVs implying the second part.

I know it's all a copout, but what I am wondering is what did he say exactly. No one seems to be able to remember that, and no one seems to have saved it.

he did. it was on the oforums. right after the nge he tried a little damage control. it wasn't so much that he was saying they no longer had the code but rather they didn't understand it.

 

probably why nobody has the quote is he made sure to do this right before the forums were reworked and it no longer exists.

 

Saying people do not understand something is not the same thing as saying it no longer exists. Two completely different things that are barely related except that the net result would be similar.

See above for his exact words Fisher, source?  My hard-drive lmao.  Feel free to use that in your debate on the other thread.  Happy debating, I know you love it -_^.
 

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by rage9000

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by rage9000

while i dont remember the exact statement it went something like:

 

"a rollback isnt possible because we no longer have the code" or words to that effect. i took it to be a lie of convenience. when pressed about this i think he answered along the lines of " the original devs who understand the code no longer work here" or something. a cop out really.

I don't  recall seeing Smed or anyone say the first part of what you are saying ("we no longer have the code"), but I do remember several DEVs implying the second part.

I know it's all a copout, but what I am wondering is what did he say exactly. No one seems to be able to remember that, and no one seems to have saved it.

he did. it was on the oforums. right after the nge he tried a little damage control. it wasn't so much that he was saying they no longer had the code but rather they didn't understand it.

 

probably why nobody has the quote is he made sure to do this right before the forums were reworked and it no longer exists.

 

Saying people do not understand something is not the same thing as saying it no longer exists. Two completely different things that are barely related except that the net result would be similar.

See above for his exact words Fisher, source?  My hard-drive lmao.  Feel free to use that in your debate on the other thread.  Happy debating, I know you love it -_^.
 

I didn't want to further hijack that thread, which is why I started the separate discussion here. Too bad Perilous disappeared.

I do enjoy a good debate, and was looking forward to it. Pity.

There's no way they lost the code and as it's been pretty well shown in this thread....there is no proof out there that supports the "lost code" theory.

MILLIONS of dollars went into making the original game code.  The code itself is worth money and there is no way they would just throw it out or lose it. 

Can the SWG team implement  a classic server?  Yes.

Do they financial stability, support, and authorization from LEC?  Nope, and probably never will

The "topic we do not speak of" is the only hope for future old school gameplay.  That MIGHT have an effect on LEC/SOE no classic server (which I'm 100000% for) but I doubt it will happen.

Loosing a code like this is just sheer unprofessionalism, and admitting to it would be even worse.

Of course the code is there somewhere; just there are too many obstacles to bring it back. For one the total incompetence from the current intern devs, there is also the licencing from LucasFilm, plus Smedleys stuborness, pride and arrogance...

But its there.

Hey fisher, are you just looking for something in the public record, or are you trying to find out if this is true or not?  I would figure you would already know the answer to this. As far as I can remember the only thing mentioned was pre-cu was impossible which J. Freeman later clarified..impossible meant not profitable. I've never seen anything mentioned of losing the code. They've meantioned the pre-cu code base was no longer a viable business. That probably is just as good as being lost:)

I just took the time to read through everyone's responses thoroughly.  Lots of goodies ^_^.  If any one ever asks me about the pre-cu code again, I'll just copy them the link to this thread.  I don't think anything's been missed.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Hey fisher, are you just looking for something in the public record, or are you trying to find out if this is true or not?  I would figure you would already know the answer to this. As far as I can remember the only thing mentioned was pre-cu was impossible which J. Freeman later clarified..impossible meant not profitable. I've never seen anything mentioned of losing the code. They've meantioned the pre-cu code base was no longer a viable business. That probably is just as good as being lost:)

Yeah, I am looking for what has been actually SAID by Smed and others about it. the truth of it is a whole 'nother issue.

My memory pretty much jives with yours on this -- and Arc's stuff has been most helpful.

It tells a much more interesting story than "they lost the code."

Either way I am merely coming to the conclusion that they never said they lost the code or didn't have it -- but what they have said was so badly worded that people have misconstrued what they have said to mean that.

In terms of the ultimate truth of the matter, we may never know -- but I assume they HAVE the code, but not the talent nor the money to work with it. That's why it's technically impossible. They may as well have ME trying to read the code -- and I read code about as well as my dog Wedge does.

I wanna say i remember them saying a pre-cu roll-back couldn't be done because they didn't have the pre-cu character data, but i can't find it, or remember if it was a dev or from someone saying they talked to a dev at fanfest. Maybe it was Isk or someone. I remember something like that though, but never them saying they lost it. Hell, i remember one rumor was that one of the devs stole it on their way out:)

Originally posted by Fishermage

I have seen people on this forum and others that Smedley and other SOE DEVs have said that they lost the code to pre-CU/NGE and that is why they couldn't roll back or open classic servers.

I never saw anyone official say that. Did anyone save these very important quotes? Any info on this would be helpful, especially any links and/or well referenced quotes.

Thanks in advance.

I wouldn't say SOE lost the code.  Those morons just lost their friggin' minds.  Combine that with the idiots out of Lucasarts, we got ourselves here a Winning Combination.