Originally posted by DragonOpt1

If you like to raid and pve content 10x better then WoW (quests and epic quests) you'll like LOTRO. Only thing lotro is missing is better pvp. I think it's sorta like War where it's zerg vs zerg. WoW in no way shape or form is better then lotro in this, the epic quest line leading all the way up to end game is a very nice experience. I don't know how anyone can say WoW has better quests and story then lotro. WoW is a good game don't get me wrong it puts a lot of stuff people like together in one package really well. If you want a nice pve game and story go with lotro but if you're a hardcore pvper you might find it lacking a little.

I loved LOTRO's pve content, but it just didnt seem like there was enough of it to keep non-casuals entertained. Have they fixed this?

Originally posted by pencilrick

I have played LOTRO to level 10 and every bit of LOTRO up to that point was doing quests in one zone to unlock access to another, starting with the unnecessary tutorial.

MMORPG's I have played:

Everquest, Everquest II, AC, SWG, AC2 (beta), Horizons, Warhammer Online, AOC, LOTRO (beta and release), Earth and Beyond, WOW (beta and release), DAOC, Vanguard (beta and release), The Realm Online, Meridian 59, Lineage 2 (beta), Final Fantasy XI, Shadowbane, and probably a couple of others I have forgotten.

Before MMO's, I played the D&D (before the Greyhawk book back in 1975 even), Runequest, Dragonquest, Boothill, Empire of the Petal Throne, and a host of other paper and pencil games.

Now, the above resume won't buy me a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but it does say I know something about RPG's, and I can tell you that the biggest turnoff to players (whether in online gaming or offline pencil and paper variety) is to artificially limit their behaviors and railroad them down a certain path.

I even played some of the RPG books which give you very limited choices (i.e., stay in the room, turn to page 15, fight the monster, turn to page 59, etc...).  Sadly, lots of newer MMORPG's are beginning to resemble this design; a step backwards away from free-range worlds to the days of limited storyline choices.

Nothing wrong with history in a game, especially if there are physical elements of its passage (i.e., kingdoms, ruins, etc..).  Nothing wrong with factions and current events in a game.

EVERYTHING wrong with forcing someone to act out a story.  Give players an open world, give them opportunities to succeed and consequences for failure, and the players will carve out their own "stories" and adventures.

In the tutorial you are in a area you need to finish the tutorial in order to move into the open world. After doing the tutorial one time for each race you do not have to do it again unless you want too. Otherwise you can skip it. Same with the starting area wich should of only brought you up to lvl 6 before you were done with it. After doing the starter area the world is open and accessable and there is no need to do certain things other than the two books i mentioned to access an area.

If you had bothered to go past the  starter area and above lvl 10 you would of found this out. YOu can not judge the whole game off of the starter area or the low lvl areas. The game starts to pick up when you hit lvl 20 and hit the first instances in the barrow downs. The game does not demand you follow a set path. YOu can lvl your character anyway you want. If you want to spend your time grinding like in lineage you can do that an not do any quests at all. If you want to do all the epic books then you will find yourself going to the differant areas that the differant books take place in.

My warden i totally skipped the barrow downs instances. did a few east angmar quests. My point is you do not have to even follow the epic books and thus you are not force to act out the story of the epic books like you seem to think. My warden has done very few of the epic books and he is almost lvl 54 and running around moria haveing a blast.

Originally posted by pencilrick

I have played LOTRO to level 10 and every bit of LOTRO up to that point was doing quests in one zone to unlock access to another, starting with the unnecessary tutorial.

MMORPG's I have played:

Everquest, Everquest II, AC, SWG, AC2 (beta), Horizons, Warhammer Online, AOC, LOTRO (beta and release), Earth and Beyond, WOW (beta and release), DAOC, Vanguard (beta and release), The Realm Online, Meridian 59, Lineage 2 (beta), Final Fantasy XI, Shadowbane, and probably a couple of others I have forgotten.

Before MMO's, I played the D&D (before the Greyhawk book back in 1975 even), Runequest, Dragonquest, Boothill, Empire of the Petal Throne, and a host of other paper and pencil games.

Now, the above resume won't buy me a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but it does say I know something about RPG's, and I can tell you that the biggest turnoff to players (whether in online gaming or offline pencil and paper variety) is to artificially limit their behaviors and railroad them down a certain path.

I even played some of the RPG books which give you very limited choices (i.e., stay in the room, turn to page 15, fight the monster, turn to page 59, etc...).  Sadly, lots of newer MMORPG's are beginning to resemble this design; a step backwards away from free-range worlds to the days of limited storyline choices.

Nothing wrong with history in a game, especially if there are physical elements of its passage (i.e., kingdoms, ruins, etc..).  Nothing wrong with factions and current events in a game.

EVERYTHING wrong with forcing someone to act out a story.  Give players an open world, give them opportunities to succeed and consequences for failure, and the players will carve out their own "stories" and adventures.

Note:  Now imagine for a moment if LOTRO was MEO (Middle Earth Online), and they plopped your hobbit down in The Shire, and left it up to you where to venture.  Oh, they might give some tips; a bartender saying you ought to "hunt" in such and such areas.  But you would be free and could even trek off to Morder at level 5 if you so chose, and your only obstacles would be things that make sense such as Orcs, Wights, Bandits, Spiders and such, and not artificial quest lines.

If you play as a hobbit you get "plopped down" in the Shire (as alevel 1 if you have done the noob instance with another char) and you can run wherever you like so whats your problem?  LotrO is not a sandbox game thou and no one have ever claimed it was one...

just abit of advice.. next time try playing more than 1 hour before commenting about a game you know nothing about.

Originally posted by Pyrostasis

Originally posted by DragonOpt1

If you like to raid and pve content 10x better then WoW (quests and epic quests) you'll like LOTRO. Only thing lotro is missing is better pvp. I think it's sorta like War where it's zerg vs zerg. WoW in no way shape or form is better then lotro in this, the epic quest line leading all the way up to end game is a very nice experience. I don't know how anyone can say WoW has better quests and story then lotro. WoW is a good game don't get me wrong it puts a lot of stuff people like together in one package really well. If you want a nice pve game and story go with lotro but if you're a hardcore pvper you might find it lacking a little.

 

I loved LOTRO's pve content, but it just didnt seem like there was enough of it to keep non-casuals entertained. Have they fixed this?

This all hinges on when you last played. Since launch they have added 6 new books to volume one, with two new zones, expanded two other zones, overhauled the original classes have added hundreds of new quests. With the expansion they added eregion and moria and part of lothlorien. Moria is huge and seemless. It is full of zones but when you run from one zone to the next there is no loading screen to get from the great dolven to durin's way or any other zone. The only loading screen is the east and west entrance into moria.

As far as keeping non casual players happy. No game will ever be able to do that cause non casual players can burn thru content 50 times faster than devs can make it. Okay 50 times is an exageration on my part. But they burn thru content real fast. LOTRO is not the type of game were you get more out of the game at endgame. In my opinion the way to maximize your game content is to take it slow and to spend your time in each zone and just wander around and adventure. But that is my playstyle and not everyones.

Originally posted by Papadam

Originally posted by pencilrick

I have played LOTRO to level 10 and every bit of LOTRO up to that point was doing quests in one zone to unlock access to another, starting with the unnecessary tutorial.

MMORPG's I have played:

Everquest, Everquest II, AC, SWG, AC2 (beta), Horizons, Warhammer Online, AOC, LOTRO (beta and release), Earth and Beyond, WOW (beta and release), DAOC, Vanguard (beta and release), The Realm Online, Meridian 59, Lineage 2 (beta), Final Fantasy XI, Shadowbane, and probably a couple of others I have forgotten.

Before MMO's, I played the D&D (before the Greyhawk book back in 1975 even), Runequest, Dragonquest, Boothill, Empire of the Petal Throne, and a host of other paper and pencil games.

Now, the above resume won't buy me a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but it does say I know something about RPG's, and I can tell you that the biggest turnoff to players (whether in online gaming or offline pencil and paper variety) is to artificially limit their behaviors and railroad them down a certain path.

I even played some of the RPG books which give you very limited choices (i.e., stay in the room, turn to page 15, fight the monster, turn to page 59, etc...).  Sadly, lots of newer MMORPG's are beginning to resemble this design; a step backwards away from free-range worlds to the days of limited storyline choices.

Nothing wrong with history in a game, especially if there are physical elements of its passage (i.e., kingdoms, ruins, etc..).  Nothing wrong with factions and current events in a game.

EVERYTHING wrong with forcing someone to act out a story.  Give players an open world, give them opportunities to succeed and consequences for failure, and the players will carve out their own "stories" and adventures.

Note:  Now imagine for a moment if LOTRO was MEO (Middle Earth Online), and they plopped your hobbit down in The Shire, and left it up to you where to venture.  Oh, they might give some tips; a bartender saying you ought to "hunt" in such and such areas.  But you would be free and could even trek off to Morder at level 5 if you so chose, and your only obstacles would be things that make sense such as Orcs, Wights, Bandits, Spiders and such, and not artificial quest lines.

 

If you play as a hobbit you get "plopped down" in the Shire (as alevel 1 if you have done the noob instance with another char) and you can run wherever you like so whats your problem?  LotrO is not a sandbox game thou and no one have ever claimed it was one...

just abit of advice.. next time try playing more than 1 hour before commenting about a game you know nothing about.

I started several characters and played for several hours, albeit not to higher than level 10.  The game is a crashing bore.

And I am certain that if I played until level 40 or so and still did not find the game to my taste, you would probably ask me why I spent so much time playing a game I didn't like within the first 10 levels.   It's a no win situation with fanbois.

Originally posted by Grindalyx

Originally posted by Pyrostasis

Originally posted by DragonOpt1

If you like to raid and pve content 10x better then WoW (quests and epic quests) you'll like LOTRO. Only thing lotro is missing is better pvp. I think it's sorta like War where it's zerg vs zerg. WoW in no way shape or form is better then lotro in this, the epic quest line leading all the way up to end game is a very nice experience. I don't know how anyone can say WoW has better quests and story then lotro. WoW is a good game don't get me wrong it puts a lot of stuff people like together in one package really well. If you want a nice pve game and story go with lotro but if you're a hardcore pvper you might find it lacking a little.

 

I loved LOTRO's pve content, but it just didnt seem like there was enough of it to keep non-casuals entertained. Have they fixed this?

 

This all hinges on when you last played. Since launch they have added 6 new books to volume one, with two new zones, expanded two other zones, overhauled the original classes have added hundreds of new quests. With the expansion they added eregion and moria and part of lothlorien. Moria is huge and seemless. It is full of zones but when you run from one zone to the next there is no loading screen to get from the great dolven to durin's way or any other zone. The only loading screen is the east and west entrance into moria.

As far as keeping non casual players happy. No game will ever be able to do that cause non casual players can burn thru content 50 times faster than devs can make it. Okay 50 times is an exageration on my part. But they burn thru content real fast. LOTRO is not the type of game were you get more out of the game at endgame. In my opinion the way to maximize your game content is to take it slow and to spend your time in each zone and just wander around and adventure. But that is my playstyle and not everyones.

I played in beta, after release, again about a year ago, and again last week.

I agree with taking time and wandering about in the zones; I am all about "the journey" and not racing to the end game.  I just think Middle Earth would be better represented as a true sandbox rather than a storyline track. 

For a game based upon Middle Earth not to be packed with players indicates something went very wrong in the design, and in my opinion they gave us a linear storyline game and not a true sandbox.

No MMO should not be any more restrictive than WOW, I think.  LOTRO feels too "in the box" for my tastes, and apparently I am not alone.

Originally posted by pencilrick

Originally posted by MuffinStump

LOTRO has a great community and storyline.

Check out the free access going on right now (I believe it is still going anyway) for a couple of days and see if you like it.

 

That's the problem; the game has a storyline.  The game IS a storyline.  Zones are locked out until you finish quests to advance from one chapter to the next in the most linear fashion.

This game is not the world of Middle Earth, but rather the story of "The Lord of the Rings", and your character has a minor part to advance in controlled linear fasion and witness NPC's getting all the glory.  And the dev's have worked very hard to ensure that you stay on cue and follow your predestined path.

Now, if you can tolerate this one time through, then good for you.  But how about multiple characters retreading the same ol' steps again and again and again.  (And the government complains about waterboarding being a form of torture...)

IP License = Epic Legendary

Execution and Design = Epic Fail

This is the problem I have with it too. Beautiful game, great interface and dynamics, but I come to the view that MMO's based on pre-existing famous IP's are too limiting.   Over time I've found I've enjoyed games more that created their own IP rather than licensed a pre existing one (though thats surely a personal preference). In this case I happen to be a huge LoTR fan and I have to admit that envrionment-wise they nailed it. But it ruins my immersion to be bopping along a Shire road and pass a bunch of elves and humans plus other hobbit heroes. In other words I want to play in the world of Middle Earth but not with all of you!   Also the fact that they plan on parcelling out the different regions of Middle Earth in various expansion packs over time was a big  bummer for me. A Middle-Earth sandbox would have gotten me to over look the IP issue. Bearing all that in mind, given the number of people raving how great the pve content is, for me, I'd have preferred this as a standalone.

Still, free 10 day trial going on now, give it a shot, its an impressive game.

Originally posted by pencilrick

Originally posted by Grindalyx

Originally posted by Pyrostasis

Originally posted by DragonOpt1

If you like to raid and pve content 10x better then WoW (quests and epic quests) you'll like LOTRO. Only thing lotro is missing is better pvp. I think it's sorta like War where it's zerg vs zerg. WoW in no way shape or form is better then lotro in this, the epic quest line leading all the way up to end game is a very nice experience. I don't know how anyone can say WoW has better quests and story then lotro. WoW is a good game don't get me wrong it puts a lot of stuff people like together in one package really well. If you want a nice pve game and story go with lotro but if you're a hardcore pvper you might find it lacking a little.

 

I loved LOTRO's pve content, but it just didnt seem like there was enough of it to keep non-casuals entertained. Have they fixed this?

 

This all hinges on when you last played. Since launch they have added 6 new books to volume one, with two new zones, expanded two other zones, overhauled the original classes have added hundreds of new quests. With the expansion they added eregion and moria and part of lothlorien. Moria is huge and seemless. It is full of zones but when you run from one zone to the next there is no loading screen to get from the great dolven to durin's way or any other zone. The only loading screen is the east and west entrance into moria.

As far as keeping non casual players happy. No game will ever be able to do that cause non casual players can burn thru content 50 times faster than devs can make it. Okay 50 times is an exageration on my part. But they burn thru content real fast. LOTRO is not the type of game were you get more out of the game at endgame. In my opinion the way to maximize your game content is to take it slow and to spend your time in each zone and just wander around and adventure. But that is my playstyle and not everyones.

 

I played in beta, after release, again about a year ago, and again last week.

I agree with taking time and wandering about in the zones; I am all about "the journey" and not racing to the end game.  I just think Middle Earth would be better represented as a true sandbox rather than a storyline track. 

For a game based upon Middle Earth not to be packed with players indicates something went very wrong in the design, and in my opinion they gave us a linear storyline game and not a true sandbox.

No MMO should not be any more restrictive than WOW, I think.  LOTRO feels too "in the box" for my tastes, and apparently I am not alone.

Okay i understand were your coming from now. You were wanting it to be a sanbox game and it isn't i will admit that. But i will not admit it is a true linear game either. Cause you are able to totally ignore the story line and do your owne thing. No game will ever be truly sanbox as long as there are quests that require you to do what a NPC wants you to do or needs you to do and there is a story to said quests that you must read in order to learn what to do.

Your opinion is yours and yes others. but others agree with me too. Not everyone will agree on the same thing and that is the way of the world. I am very careful to try to make sure that i get across that what i post on this site is my opinion and if i haven't done that i am sorry. But all that i posted was my opinion and from my experience of the game and what i was and am able to do in the game.

Originally posted by Grindalyx

Originally posted by pencilrick

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by pencilrick

Originally posted by MuffinStump

LOTRO has a great community and storyline.

Check out the free access going on right now (I believe it is still going anyway) for a couple of days and see if you like it.

 

That's the problem; the game has a storyline.  The game IS a storyline.  Zones are locked out until you finish quests to advance from one chapter to the next in the most linear fashion.

This game is not the world of Middle Earth, but rather the story of "The Lord of the Rings", and your character has a minor part to advance in controlled linear fasion and witness NPC's getting all the glory.  And the dev's have worked very hard to ensure that you stay on cue and follow your predestined path.

Now, if you can tolerate this one time through, then good for you.  But how about multiple characters retreading the same ol' steps again and again and again.  (And the government complains about waterboarding being a form of torture...)

IP License = Epic Legendary

Execution and Design = Epic Fail

 

Why is this a problem? Just go through the game once. I bet they have enough content to entertain for a long while.

The reason storyline game design is a problem is it feels linear and contrived.  Worse, the NPC's are center stage while your characters stand by and read their bit part lines.

Great MMO's present "worlds" for players to adventure in.  Lesser MMO's herd players along some pre-determined path like so much cattle.

Frankly, I do not see why some folks do not understand this.   And for a game with an epic license such as Tolkien's work and to not be a major hit means something is wrong, very wrong.  Seems to me this game has the same problem as Age of Conan or Warhammer Online; two games with epic licenses to wondrous IP's, yet which failed by taking the shortcut of designing linear forced gameplay into their mechanics.

The bottom line is do you want your character to be a free-willed adventurer in a wondrous and mysterious online game world, or do you want your character to be an actor being spoonfed his dialogue and actions by the dev's?

 

I would like to know wich game you played. Cause what you describe is not LOTRO. You are not forced to do any of the epic books but two that i can think of off the top of my head. Book 6 of volume one to be able to get past the watcher stones in angmar and do the content in east angmar. Or if you know a hunter who can port you to east angmar you don't even need to do that book.

Book one of volume 2 to be able to access moria. They did it this way to explain how we end up getting into moria and also a way to introduce legendary items. Other than that you can run around middle earth all day and do whatever you want to do. If you want to sit in bree and play music all day you can do that. PLay whatever song you want. No NPC is going to run up and smack you for doing that and tell you what to do.

I have been playing this game since closed beta started over 2 years ago and i have never felt like i was being herded like a cow. I have spent my days just crafting or chatting with my kin. I have never had a pop up telling me what to i have to do next or were i have to go. YOu my friend are the one who is not getting it. They give us a choice. Do the epic quests and learn the story of the fellowhip or do whatever you want. If you can careless about the fellowship then run around and do whatever you want to do and never do a epic book. You try to make it sound like your told what to do and when to do it when that is the farthest thing from the truth.

I’d like to know what game he was playing to. It sounds like all he did was the book quests, and did not go off the storyline quests.

I wonder if he knows you can skip every single one of them, or even play them out of order.

This game is wider than it is tall. The game is more of a sandbox than any other Theme park MMO out there, and on top of that, did he go to Evendom? Forchel? Angmar? I mean shit, they added 4 entire zones last year (for free), and most have NOTHING to do with the main story line (That BTW is only there because it IS during the time of the fellowship).

As far as being second-string to NPC's, WTF is he talking about, Turbine has created the story (or Epic) quest line in such a way that its brilliant, you assist the fellowship almost every step of the way... Want to know hoe Frodo’s horse got back to the shire? THAT WAS YOU. How about the reforming of the sword... THAT WAS YOU TOO.

I know what happened; He started the game, took quests with out reading a single thing, and only did the book quests till the end, and threw his hands up. Typical WoW conditioning in play style.

Like i said, this game is more of a world than any other game out there right now.

Originally posted by pencilrick

I have played LOTRO to level 10 and every bit of LOTRO up to that point was doing quests in one zone to unlock access to another, starting with the unnecessary tutorial.

MMORPG's I have played:

Everquest, Everquest II, AC, SWG, AC2 (beta), Horizons, Warhammer Online, AOC, LOTRO (beta and release), Earth and Beyond, WOW (beta and release), DAOC, Vanguard (beta and release), The Realm Online, Meridian 59, Lineage 2 (beta), Final Fantasy XI, Shadowbane, and probably a couple of others I have forgotten.

Before MMO's, I played the D&D (before the Greyhawk book back in 1975 even), Runequest, Dragonquest, Boothill, Empire of the Petal Throne, and a host of other paper and pencil games.

Now, the above resume won't buy me a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but it does say I know something about RPG's, and I can tell you that the biggest turnoff to players (whether in online gaming or offline pencil and paper variety) is to artificially limit their behaviors and railroad them down a certain path.

I even played some of the RPG books which give you very limited choices (i.e., stay in the room, turn to page 15, fight the monster, turn to page 59, etc...).  Sadly, lots of newer MMORPG's are beginning to resemble this design; a step backwards away from free-range worlds to the days of limited storyline choices.

Nothing wrong with history in a game, especially if there are physical elements of its passage (i.e., kingdoms, ruins, etc..).  Nothing wrong with factions and current events in a game.

EVERYTHING wrong with forcing someone to act out a story.  Give players an open world, give them opportunities to succeed and consequences for failure, and the players will carve out their own "stories" and adventures.

Note:  Now imagine for a moment if LOTRO was MEO (Middle Earth Online), and they plopped your hobbit down in The Shire, and left it up to you where to venture.  Oh, they might give some tips; a bartender saying you ought to "hunt" in such and such areas.  But you would be free and could even trek off to Morder at level 5 if you so chose, and your only obstacles would be things that make sense such as Orcs, Wights, Bandits, Spiders and such, and not artificial quest lines.

 

I have played most if not all the games you have and as you say a lot more I forgot about.

Whilst I accept you have an opinion its not really fair to judge any game on a level 10 char with a level max of 60. I have played chars through whole storyline and others with no storyline ie no book . Also the tutorial is skipable afer the first play (option). The last point you make is possible I as I said have played solo chars with no quests completed. Total open ended questing would not be possible in any online game as you should know with your gaming experience. Unless the NPC's were GM's paid to give quests based on what you did, it would be lovely but its not gonna happen :XD