The conservatives all shouted in unison that Obama's promise to talk to Iran directly with no preconceptions was a show of weakness...

Now the horse speaks...

"US President Barack Obama's offer to talk to Iran shows that America's policy of "domination" has failed, the government spokesman said on Saturday.
"This request means Western ideology has become passive, that capitalist thought and the system of domination have failed," Gholam Hossein Elham was quoted as saying by the Mehr news agency.

"Negotiation is secondary, the main issue is that there is no way but for (the United States) to change," he added.

full article...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.073ba2ee2f1f00668848a4655420fedc.411&show_article=1

What's sad is the conservatives have been shown to be right time and time again about this guy and Obama had only been in office a few days....

Lol Duhh..

But Most Liberals will try and Spin this as a good thing..

I'm a conservative, but I don't really have a problem with him talking to Iran.

Could you gents explain the main problem you have with it?

Originally posted by popinjay

I'm a conservative, but I don't really have a problem with him talking to Iran.

Could you gents explain the main problem you have with it?

The problem is that you think REASON and CIVILITY will actually reach through madness and resolve something.  NO.  ALL THEY SEE IS US BLINKING.  ALL THEY WANT IS YOU AND ME DEAD. PERIOD.

There is no attempt by them to get along.  They made it clear they want Israel wiped off the map.  there is no plan B or compromise...that's all OUR side's talk.  We keep drawing lines in sand and they keep laughing and erasing the line and coming on with a gun in their hand.

Liberals actually believe that you can reason with someone who wants you dead.  Conservatives want to pull the trigger before they do.  It's so clear but political correctness and propaganda by the liberal media have us thinking there is a HOPE of actually getting along and living alongside these people.  Guess what?  In the IRanian version of the constitution, they actually have it stated that Israel and her allies must be destroyed.  So...you tell me libs...  How do you spin this one?

C'mon that reaction was expected.
Stop being such a wuss..................

We know that some Arabs like to tease western governments with their false victory statement, do you remember the general who was talking to live TV with US tanks behind him and claiming Iraq was winning the war? They just can't help themselves................
We just know it was going to happen.


But the US have to ignore that, of course everyone wants to be the winner, it is obvious that Arab governement wants to be seen as the winners by their people.
But if the US can fix the middle east without the use of force, the whole world will know who is the winner............some arab propaganda is not going to fool us.
You are too worried about what Arabs might think of America, rather than what the rest of the world thinks.

The important thing is that this middle east problem is resolved, for 70 years war has been the answer, maybe it is time to put each other ego aside and start with serious diplomacy.
 

Originally posted by popinjay

I'm a conservative, but I don't really have a problem with him talking to Iran.

Could you gents explain the main problem you have with it?

I've read many of your posts, you're no conservative.  Unless your definition of a conservative is my definition of a liberal.

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Originally posted by Faxxer

 The problem is that you think REASON and CIVILITY will actually reach through madness and resolve something.  NO.  ALL THEY SEE IS US BLINKING.  ALL THEY WANT IS YOU AND ME DEAD. PERIOD.
There is no attempt by them to get along.  They made it clear they want Israel wiped off the map.  there is no plan B or compromise...that's all OUR side's talk.  We keep drawing lines in sand and they keep laughing and erasing the line and coming on with a gun in their hand.
Liberals actually believe that you can reason with someone who wants you dead.  Conservatives want to pull the trigger before they do.  It's so clear but political correctness and propaganda by the liberal media have us thinking there is a HOPE of actually getting along and living alongside these people.  Guess what?  In the IRanian version of the constitution, they actually have it stated that Israel and her allies must be destroyed.  So...you tell me libs...  How do you spin this one?

---

Well, the thing is.. Iran is a major political and military figure in the Middle East, so it would only make sense to talk with them. Talking with the Taliban for instance, would make no sense as they don't own anything and aren't sovreign. But you cannot ignore that Iran is a huge figure in the Middle East and must be considered as such. The US cannot simply continue to do what Bush did by plugging his ears and muttering "La la la.. I can't hear you. You don't exist." That's part of the faulty leadership that keeps getting the US into messes over and over, not listening. We have to understand Iran needs to be included in any talks for the future of the region as they are sovreign. This is a country that fought Saddam Hussein to a standstill for almost 10 years so they can pretty much go toe-toe with any country there.

Iran does not have a vast and expansive history of killing loads of Americans. The US actually has killed more Iranians through CIA covert means inside Iran in the past decades and by outright supplying Saddam with money, training, support and weapons of mass destruction to kill Iranians. This is all on file and provable. It makes far less sense to have Bush talking with a country like Libya, who admitted guilt in 2002 with the Pan Am Lockerbie bombing that killed Americans. But we allow Qadhafi to now own an almost 10% stake in an Italian soccer team (21 million). From former terrorist facilitor and noted friend of Carlos "the Jackal", to now "off" the US terrorlist and friend of an American ally. Amazing.

Israel deserves to exist of course, but be careful painting Israel as some picture of tolerance or as some innocent to the region's troubles, especially from their actions in the past.

In the 50's, Britian and France tried to steal the Suez Canal from Egypt along with Israel. Israel was going to outright attack Egypt starting a war, then the Brits and French were going to come in and make "peace"... taking the Canal and giving Israel control of the Sinai. Again, this is all well documented and anyone can look it up. Eisenhower found out about this and told Brits/French expect no help from the US with this illegal action. Of course, 25 years later, we give Saddam millions to invade Iran because we didn't like the Ayatollah, where Iranians died. It's only natural that some Iranians would want Americans dead after losing relatives, and going through a decade of the modern equivalent of World War 1. (biological gas/chemical weapons, trench warfare, etc)

Gee, thanks Ronald Reagan and Don Rumsfeld for your work in the 80's in the Mideast region smoothing things over, cause they worked out REAL well for us all today.

With shenanigans like this in the past, Iran and any other muslim country in the region has reason to be just as worried of Israel as Israel is worried of them. And since the US is historically Israel's biggest arms supplier and ally, its only natural we catch residual rhetoric.

Again, as a conservative American, I have no problem with Obama talking with Iran.

Originally posted by popinjay

I'm a conservative

I had quite a laugh at that one.

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Originally posted by Zindaihas

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Originally posted by popinjay

I'm a conservative, but I don't really have a problem with him talking to Iran.
Could you gents explain the main problem you have with it?

---

 
I've read many of your posts, you're no conservative.  Unless your definition of a conservative is my definition of a liberal.

---

Define a conservative. Tell me what you believe in and are against and we'll see.

Yeah i mean what the hell, we should murder first and then ask questions later!

Hes starting to remind me of Carter  /facepalm

Originally posted by Scalebane

Yeah i mean what the hell, we should murder first and then ask questions later!

I believe that was Bush's motto.  He probably had it up on his wall in his office when he was President.  Apparently many on these forums follows that same motto.

Your a fool for thinking you can scare terrorists and terrorist supporting governments into submission. These people kill themselves for the chance to take out 100 innocent people or just a handful on a weekly basis. The people in charge honestly don't care if we declare war on their country or their government. They actually get off on it. They want us to play hardball 24/7.

On the flipside you can't really talk to these people either. The best tactic is to show as much respect as possible without showing weakness, and you will convince the people these terrorist surround themselves with. Winning the hearts and minds of the people is the correct way to bring about peace, but you can't do it at the the end of a gun.

If it were just Mahmoud Ahmadinejad I'd say that flexing our muscle might be good strategy, but with Ayatollah Ali Khamenei calling the shots, Iran must be treated less like the Soviet Union and more like I mentioned above. Every move we make must be aimed squarely at the people of Iran and not their leaders.

That's just it.  Submission isn't the desired outcome-from either side.

When you are dealing with a gang, you talk to the man holding the gun. period.

We can try and win the hearts and minds all we want, but in the end THEY are the ones who are submissive to the ones in power.   from FEAR, not respect.

Obama still has an ace

Originally posted by Precusor

Obama still has an ace

Im playing a game of scrabble and i need a  6 letter word for "peace"
 

Thinking...thinking ...thinking ..got it ...RELOAD.

Originally posted by Precusor

Obama still has an ace

here's your ace talking...

http://malaysia.news.yahoo.com/ap/20090201/twl-ml-israel-politics-38359fb.html

snippet for the lazy:

JERUSALEM - Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's leading candidate for prime minister, said Saturday that Iran "will not be armed with a nuclear weapon."

In an interview with Israel's Channel 2 TV, Netanyahu said if elected prime minister his first mission will be to thwart the Iranian nuclear threat. Netanyahu, the current opposition leader and head of the hardline Likud party, called Iran the greatest danger to Israel and to all humanity.

When asked if stopping Iran's nuclear ambitions included a military strike, he replied: "It includes everything that is necessary to make this statement come true."

end snippet

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Originally posted by Faxxer
That's just it.  Submission isn't the desired outcome-from either side.
When you are dealing with a gang, you talk to the man holding the gun. period.
We can try and win the hearts and minds all we want, but in the end THEY are the ones who are submissive to the ones in power.   from FEAR, not respect.

---

I think I see you saying, we are bigger so we should just scare them. Is that what you mean? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you are talking about "fear" and no respect.

Is it fundamentally wrong to respect your enemies or something? I think Sun Tzu would disagree heavily with you, as would many world leaders from the past. Perhaps back 100 years ago "Gunboat Diplomacy" was a viable strategy when there was no linkage between other countries as much. It didn't work with Saddam, and now we've bought a Ford Pinto of a country for the next 60 years with Lamborghini money, which helped blow the hell out of our economy.

Nowadays, every country has an ally. There is no one country everyone hates, although after W, the US was working its way up the ladder. And when the US tries to do it the Bush way, allies of Iran just bristle more. It feeds into more of a hate of the US rather than a fear. Iran or any of those countries don't fear us overall, they loathe us because we've used the Middle East as our personal test toilet for everything from weapons to political games to assassinations for the last 50+ years.

Do you think the colonies had high regards for the British before, during and shortly after the Revolutionary War? The more Britain did in the way of clamp downs, the firmer the colonies resolve got. And later, it brought it allies who aided because they hated the British. This has been shown plenty of times historically that if you try and subjugate a people or culture, they will rebel always. And the longer you keep your heel on their necks, the deeper the wounds will go.

Most Americans like to use a phrase to nauseum... "Get over it." We tell Black Americans "get over" slavery and the Tuskegee Experiments, Indians to "get over" land grabbing and forced reservations and exterminations, Japanese to "get over" internment camps and robbery of American property they owned legally, and now we tell the Middle East to "get over" the past 50+ years of the US meddling and ripping the region off in the name of capitalism. And if you don't get over it, well drop a Tomahawk on your ass. This is plain retarded and I honestly don't know how a human being could support this with such vigor in the 21st century.

The weird thing is plenty of countries worldwide are starting to tell the US "get over it" in regards to 9/11 and trying to exact revenge. They claim we are mowing down innocents in an attempt to capture one man, and we are no closer now than we were after 9/11. They were in our corner like you wouldn't believe right after, but after the last six years, they are starting to wonder is all this nonsense worth it.

Hell, the US still hasn't "gotten over" Pearl Harbor.

Originally posted by popinjay

 

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Originally posted by Faxxer
That's just it.  Submission isn't the desired outcome-from either side.
When you are dealing with a gang, you talk to the man holding the gun. period.
We can try and win the hearts and minds all we want, but in the end THEY are the ones who are submissive to the ones in power.   from FEAR, not respect.

---

 

 

I think I see you saying, we are bigger so we should just scare them. Is that what you mean? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you are talking about "fear" and no respect.

Is it fundamentally wrong to respect your enemies or something? I think Sun Tzu would disagree heavily with you, as would many world leaders from the past. Perhaps back 100 years ago "Gunboat Diplomacy" was a viable strategy when there was no linkage between other countries as much. It didn't work with Saddam, and now we've bought a Ford Pinto of a country for the next 60 years with Lamborghini money, which helped blow the hell out of our economy.

Nowadays, every country has an ally. There is no one country everyone hates, although after W, the US was working its way up the ladder. And when the US tries to do it the Bush way, allies of Iran just bristle more. It feeds into more of a hate of the US rather than a fear. Iran or any of those countries don't fear us overall, they loathe us because we've used the Middle East as our personal test toilet for everything from weapons to political games to assassinations for the last 50+ years.

Do you think the colonies had high regards for the British before, during and shortly after the Revolutionary War? The more Britain did in the way of clamp downs, the firmer the colonies resolve got. And later, it brought it allies who aided because they hated the British. This has been shown plenty of times historically that if you try and subjugate a people or culture, they will rebel always. And the longer you keep your heel on their necks, the deeper the wounds will go.

Most Americans like to use a phrase to nauseum... "Get over it." We tell Black Americans "get over" slavery and the Tuskegee Experiments, Indians to "get over" land grabbing and forced reservations and exterminations, Japanese to "get over" internment camps and robbery of American property they owned legally, and now we tell the Middle East to "get over" the past 50+ years of the US meddling and ripping the region off in the name of capitalism. And if you don't get over it, well drop a Tomahawk on your ass. This is plain retarded and I honestly don't know how a human being could support this with such vigor in the 21st century.

The weird thing is plenty of countries worldwide are starting to tell the US "get over it" in regards to 9/11 and trying to exact revenge. They claim we are mowing down innocents in an attempt to capture one man, and we are no closer now than we were after 9/11. They were in our corner like you wouldn't believe right after, but after the last six years, they are starting to wonder is all this nonsense worth it.

Hell, the US still hasn't "gotten over" Pearl Harbor.

 

sorry i wasn't clear, meant the Iranian people live in fear of their government...winning their hearts and minds is never going to work because they'll turn up dead if they dare oppose their regime.
 

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Originally posted by Faxxer

sorry i wasn't clear, meant the Iranian people live in fear of their government...winning their hearts and minds is never going to work because they'll turn up dead if they dare oppose their regime.
 

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Cool, I was wondering what you meant :)

Again, gonna have to disagree. First this guy, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, isn't the leader. The mullahs and religious people are. But, they are not like the religious leaders of the Taliban. A better comparison is think of the Saudis and how they rule.

It's a muslim country. Women have to walk behind men. Women are not allowed to sit with their husbands at the same table in a restaurant. Women are not supposed to drive. There is a lot of repression in a country like that, those are the light rules. Why don't you think the women of that country don't "rise up" and demand rights? And if they did, do you think the Saudi government would say "Yeah, we thought about it and its not fair" and then allow them democratic principles? At least Iran actually HOLDS elections... Saudi is one king and 500 princes waiting for the throne, each with millions of dollars to throw around because of oil. Talk about backwards and medievil, but this is OUR ally and we are all over Iran because they don't let women hold jobs and kids can't get MTV? Weird, just friggin weird.

The only difference between a country like Saudi Arabia and Iran is the the Saudis haven't actually said out loud "We'd like the Jews to disappear". Now we all know they would LOVE for the Jews to make a left turn and go for a long swim, but as long as they don't publicly say something, its all chill. Yet, the majority of the terrorists come from and are funded by who? Saudis. Osama Bin Laden? Saudi. Most of the hijackers on 9/11. Yeah, Saudi. Iraqis? 0. The Bush family's longterm friends and business interests overrides any serious talk of democracy and terrorist hunting.

Bush Sr was head of the CIA and is a longtime friend of the Saudi King. That doesn't strike you as... bizarre?

We can't demand rights for Iranians until we demand rights for Saudis. After all, they are our ally and Iran is not.