Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

I'd rather the game be more faithful to the IP rather than another re-hash of Raph Koster's flawed vision.

With the exception of Luke (who was a teenager I might add), *all* Jedi depicted in the films started as children. All of them. Heck, even Anakin, "The Chosen One" was almost turned down at the age of nine... for being too old. And this game is set in an era three thousand years prior to the movies, when both Jedi and Sith flourished.

It doesn't make a lick of sense for Jedi to be anything but a vocation one begins upon character creation... unless you're proposing we all begin the game as infants.

You want a sandbox sci-fi game without Jedi? I suggest you check out EVE Online.

HERESY! How dare you speak of Koster, saint of sandboxes! Clean your wicked mouth you vile infidel!

I'm not saying adhere strictly to the movies (George Lucas didn't!) but make a Jedi an achievment rather than just another proffesion. Put some mystery in there.

As for EVE online it's more like a vacum than a sandbox and the wicked CCP have sold thier souls to the darkside when privateers won EVE!

Give people one good reason why Jedi should be unlockable, without using reasons involving hate of other people or vanity. Be prepared to defend your reasons with logic.

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Actually it would be against the lore unless they're going to start you off as a child.  You don't grow up and beome a Jedi you're born into it and requires years oif training to master your abilities.  Jedi should be a starter profession for the same reasons mages are a starter profession in a fantasy game.  

 

You're right but I do like the idea of you having to do some training a certain places to enter society, maybe jedi get a TEF to all when they pull out thier saber? Making it a bit tougher to be a Jedi?

Why does it need to be tough to be a Jedi?

I will say no. Jedi were numerous in the time frame of the Old Republic. There will be so many people playing this game though it will not matter. There will be tons and tons of every class running around the Star Wars Universe when this game comes out. :)

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

I'd rather the game be more faithful to the IP rather than another re-hash of Raph Koster's flawed vision.

With the exception of Luke (who was a teenager I might add), *all* Jedi depicted in the films started as children. All of them. Heck, even Anakin, "The Chosen One" was almost turned down at the age of nine... for being too old. And this game is set in an era three thousand years prior to the movies, when both Jedi and Sith flourished.

It doesn't make a lick of sense for Jedi to be anything but a vocation one begins upon character creation... unless you're proposing we all begin the game as infants.

You want a sandbox sci-fi game without Jedi? I suggest you check out EVE Online.

HERESY! How dare you speak of Koster, saint of sandboxes! Clean your wicked mouth you vile infidel!

I'm not saying adhere strictly to the movies (George Lucas didn't!) but make a Jedi an achievment rather than just another proffesion. Put some mystery in there.

As for EVE online it's more like a vacum than a sandbox and the wicked CCP have sold thier souls to the darkside when privateers won EVE!

 

Give people one good reason why Jedi should be unlockable, without using reasons involving hate of other people or vanity. Be prepared to defend your reasons with logic.

Hmm, I like you.  It's not very often you find someone on the internet who works with reason.

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by Nomad40

In SWG Online they had the Jedi set up like that. It did not work out well. It became this really annoying thing where people would get it and not even work for it and others would work their whole time and end up quitting never having played a Jedi.

 

 

 

Then they were obviously too weak to become true wielders of the force! To give these types a lightsaber would be a dis-service to the rest of the force wielders! Those that didn't seem to work for it were no doubt extremely force sensitive and gifted!

It is exactly this system that weeds out the weak, culls the wretched and destroys the worthless! Those are they type then end up as FOTM templates moaning about how everything is too hard, well I say we exile these heathens to SWG and be done with it!

Yes join my crusade to exponge the dead flesh of SWtOR! Kneel before the great Agricola and tremble as you would before a GOD! Man the weapons, prepare the cruisers and begin the battle meditation,

 

                                          DEUS VULT!

Now I know you're a troll. No one is that geeky and a loser to speak like that. Everyone, don't fall for this crap. This guy's just trying to get a rise out of you all.

/thread over

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Force sensitivity should not be unlockable, but Jedi should. I don't want to see 90% of the population running around as Jedi, because no matter what you may say, that still doesn't fit the timeline. Yes, Jedi were more prominent in the KotOR timeline, but they didn't make up the majority of the population. They should still be rare to some degree.

When it comes to lore, that gets a little tricky. Jedi were supposed to start training at a very early age. Now unless you start the game as a child, it really doesn't make sense for ANYONE to "start" as a Jedi at level 1. why would a 20ish+ year old be a complete joke of a Jedi if he has been training all of his life? So if you think of it this way, then making Jedi unlockable isn't much different than starting as a Jedi when it comes to breaking lore. Besides, not the first time a Star Wars game has crapped all over it's lore for the sake of Jedi anyway.

So, I think Jedi should be unlocked by accomplishing certain unknown goals. These goals should start a secret and STAY a secret, or possibly randomized for each character created.

I'd really like to see force sensitivity be open to play a role in any character, but full fledged Jedi should be uncommon, but not have much more power than anyone else.

But, we all know where this game is heading. Jedi is going to be a starter class, because EVERYONE HAS to be a "hero". But wheneveryone is a hero, no one is. And when everyone is the same, no one is special.

/sigh.

 

EDIT:

I just thought of something that would be pretty funny. Since we all know this game is going to have levels(god forbid an MMO doesn't! How will I know I am doing well???), it would be really funny, fitting, and cool if people that created a Jedi started out as a child at like level -50, and had to grind through extra levels to max out. That would be both lore fitting, and population controlling. Huh.

 

Agreed, it will no doubt end up with jedi as a starter prof and as everyone wants to be a hero they'll play jedi. As you said when everyone is a hero and a FOTM template then it just results in mediocrity for all, everyone just rolls thier eyes when they see a "hero".

Here lays the underlying reason why the OP wants Jedi to be an exclusive class. He wants to feel "heroic and special." He wants others to look at him in awe as he whips out his lightsaber and uses the force. He wants to be one of the few if not the only Jedi in the game.

Who CARES what other people think of you, or what other people say. While I'm playing a Jedi doing heroic things, I will feel heroic, regardless if 20 other people are doing the same things.

You're either a troll, or some dork who cares way to much about what others think about you, and you feel that an in-game achievement will buy you some measure of respect. Well buddy, it ain't going to happen, so you better resolve your personal issues and learn to like yourself and be happy with who you are.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Force sensitivity should not be unlockable, but Jedi should. I don't want to see 90% of the population running around as Jedi, because no matter what you may say, that still doesn't fit the timeline. Yes, Jedi were more prominent in the KotOR timeline, but they didn't make up the majority of the population. They should still be rare to some degree.

When it comes to lore, that gets a little tricky. Jedi were supposed to start training at a very early age. Now unless you start the game as a child, it really doesn't make sense for ANYONE to "start" as a Jedi at level 1. why would a 20ish+ year old be a complete joke of a Jedi if he has been training all of his life? So if you think of it this way, then making Jedi unlockable isn't much different than starting as a Jedi when it comes to breaking lore. Besides, not the first time a Star Wars game has crapped all over it's lore for the sake of Jedi anyway.

So, I think Jedi should be unlocked by accomplishing certain unknown goals. These goals should start a secret and STAY a secret, or possibly randomized for each character created.

I'd really like to see force sensitivity be open to play a role in any character, but full fledged Jedi should be uncommon, but not have much more power than anyone else.

But, we all know where this game is heading. Jedi is going to be a starter class, because EVERYONE HAS to be a "hero". But wheneveryone is a hero, no one is. And when everyone is the same, no one is special.

/sigh.

 

EDIT:

I just thought of something that would be pretty funny. Since we all know this game is going to have levels(god forbid an MMO doesn't! How will I know I am doing well???), it would be really funny, fitting, and cool if people that created a Jedi started out as a child at like level -50, and had to grind through extra levels to max out. That would be both lore fitting, and population controlling. Huh.

 

Agreed, it will no doubt end up with jedi as a starter prof and as everyone wants to be a hero they'll play jedi. As you said when everyone is a hero and a FOTM template then it just results in mediocrity for all, everyone just rolls thier eyes when they see a "hero".

 

Here lays the underlying reason why the OP wants Jedi to be an exclusive class. He wants to feel "heroic and special." He wants others to look at him in awe as he whips out his lightsaber and uses the force. He wants to be one of the few if not the only Jedi in the game.

Who CARES what other people think of you, or what other people say. While I'm playing a Jedi doing heroic things, I will feel heroic, regardless if 20 other people are doing the same things.

You're either a troll, or some dork who cares way to much about what others think about you, and you feel that an in-game achievement will buy you some measure of respect. Well buddy, it ain't going to happen, so you better resolve your personal issues and learn to like yourself and be happy with who you are.

 That was well stated!!!

 We already know that the game is going to be heavily story driven. So it would be reasonable to assume that character creation could be part of a story. It you want to play a Jedi/Sith, part of your story would be unlocking your force senstivity. In the process you could get a tutorial on weapon abilities, crafting, melee combat, etc. and at the end of the "chapter" you are a fledgling padawan/apprentice.

I doubt they will make you play a youngling, but it would be interesting and different to incorporate a young version of your character and then when your intro chapter plays out you can customize your adult version .

It seems the majority wish to have Jedi as a starter profession, I wept all night as I hugged my Raphael Koster pillow :(

The next morning I realized, "Since when have DEVs ever given a crap about what the players want?". Right we all have to agree on this don't we? Although I'm worried since this is Bioware and I think their games rock and they could actually give a crap. If Bioware does listen they'll be a next generation MMO company with perhaps a next generation game.

However the truth is for the most part they never listen and do the opposite so,

"Give me heavy instancing, linear gameplay, no player housing, one proffesion that is Jedi and a starter proffession, oh and I want levels too with lots of grind!"

Originally posted by Agricola1

It seems the majority wish to have Jedi as a starter profession, I wept all night as I hugged my Raphael Koster pillow :(

The next morning I realized, "Since when have DEVs ever given a crap about what the players want?". Right we all have to agree on this don't we? Although I'm worried since this is Bioware and I think their games rock and they could actually give a crap. If Bioware does listen they'll be a next generation MMO company with perhaps a next generation game.

However the truth is for the most part they never listen and do the opposite so,

"Give me heavy instancing, linear gameplay, no player housing, one proffesion that is Jedi and a starter proffession, oh and I want levels too with lots of grind!"

Wait a minute, are you saying that if Bioware wasnt to listen to you that they wont be a "Next Generation MMO company"? I didnt realize that your opinions carried that much weight, if any. Nor should any of mine for that matter. If this was such a big deal to you, then why dont you go to the SWTOR.com site and blast away. See where that gets you. Cause all this is doing is giving me the impression that when you dont get your way... you cry. Sorry just an impression.

a lot of people have their sarcasm filters turned off it seems. OP is definitely not a troll. We know there will be other classes. OP is(or seems) concerned that, jedi being jedi, will be stronger than other classes and we'll just see jedi and a few other classes as sidekicks. He clearly doesnt want to sacrifice game lore to make other classes playable (playable as in "on par with jedi") Some said jedi isnt immortal they also die, other people(classes) can hurt them. Come on now, watch the animated series, if you  think force wielders are not stronger than other people (based on the lore) we dont have to discuss this, nothing we can say will change your mind. OP came up with a suggestion to eliminate this problem, i dont agree with his solution as i stated in my previous post. I'm just curious how they will adress this matter. Not bashing the game, not praising it, just wondering.

Originally posted by Falfeir

a lot of people have their sarcasm filters turned off it seems. OP is definitely not a troll. We know there will be other classes. OP is(or seems) concerned that, jedi being jedi, will be stronger than other classes and we'll just see jedi and a few other classes as sidekicks. He clearly doesnt want to sacrifice game lore to make other classes playable (playable as in "on par with jedi") Some said jedi isnt immortal they also die, other people(classes) can hurt them. Come on now, watch the animated series, if you  think force wielders are not stronger than other people (based on the lore) we dont have to discuss this, nothing we can say will change your mind. OP came up with a suggestion to eliminate this problem, i dont agree with his solution as i stated in my previous post. I'm just curious how they will adress this matter. Not bashing the game, not praising it, just wondering.

That's about it in a nutshell, also I don't actually like playing Jedi myself. In SWG I unlocked Jedi but just got bored grinding instead of playing. I never played my FS char and became a BH as hunting them was a challenge and alot of fun. Having Jedi being tougher than others was fun for me as the struggle to defeat them was entertaining. My GF was a Jedi and she'd give me nasty looks whenever I wasted another Jedi :)

I just hope that some system is in place to keep an alpha class under control, unless there is no Alpha class and Jedi are just John Doe's with a glowstick :(

Originally posted by Falfeir

a lot of people have their sarcasm filters turned off it seems. OP is definitely not a troll. We know there will be other classes. OP is(or seems) concerned that, jedi being jedi, will be stronger than other classes and we'll just see jedi and a few other classes as sidekicks. He clearly doesnt want to sacrifice game lore to make other classes playable (playable as in "on par with jedi") Some said jedi isnt immortal they also die, other people(classes) can hurt them. Come on now, watch the animated series, if you  think force wielders are not stronger than other people (based on the lore) we dont have to discuss this, nothing we can say will change your mind. OP came up with a suggestion to eliminate this problem, i dont agree with his solution as i stated in my previous post. I'm just curious how they will adress this matter. Not bashing the game, not praising it, just wondering.

Watch the animated series? Try watching the game's preview trailers.

Most notably, look at the combat scenes with an Ackley or Nexu. Had they been faithful to the "lore" of the movies (much less the cartoons), those fights should have been resolved in one or two hits at best.

But this isn't a movie, it's a game. While it might be great fun to watch Anakin deftly tearing through a score of opponents in the blink of an eye, would it make for a good, compelling game? Maybe for an afternoon or two, perhaps a little longer if you're a huge fan of Dynasty Warriors. But beyond that?

You have to bear in mind that movies, books and graphic novels all have the benefit of an author. Whether the hero/villain succeeds or fails and the bravado they display is all contingent on how it develops the plot or story, which is predetermined long before the audience experiences it. With the exception of cutscenes, games don't have such luxuries. And I contend, they wouldn't be very fun if they did.

Honestly, this reminds me of several discussions I've seen regarding the game, City of Heroes. Time and time again, I've seen people try to draw direct comparisons to comic books. And frankly, their reasoning is just as flawed. To have any kind of persistent, long-term value, games need challenge. "Alpha" classes and godmode just don't cut it.

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by Falfeir

a lot of people have their sarcasm filters turned off it seems. OP is definitely not a troll. We know there will be other classes. OP is(or seems) concerned that, jedi being jedi, will be stronger than other classes and we'll just see jedi and a few other classes as sidekicks. He clearly doesnt want to sacrifice game lore to make other classes playable (playable as in "on par with jedi") Some said jedi isnt immortal they also die, other people(classes) can hurt them. Come on now, watch the animated series, if you  think force wielders are not stronger than other people (based on the lore) we dont have to discuss this, nothing we can say will change your mind. OP came up with a suggestion to eliminate this problem, i dont agree with his solution as i stated in my previous post. I'm just curious how they will adress this matter. Not bashing the game, not praising it, just wondering.

 

That's about it in a nutshell, also I don't actually like playing Jedi myself. In SWG I unlocked Jedi but just got bored grinding instead of playing. I never played my FS char and became a BH as hunting them was a challenge and alot of fun. Having Jedi being tougher than others was fun for me as the struggle to defeat them was entertaining. My GF was a Jedi and she'd give me nasty looks whenever I wasted another Jedi :)

I just hope that some system is in place to keep an alpha class under control, unless there is no Alpha class and Jedi are just John Doe's with a glowstick :(

Sorry, I have done that twice now. It seems sarcasm does not translate well over the intermet! Thats right INTERMET!

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by Falfeir

a lot of people have their sarcasm filters turned off it seems. OP is definitely not a troll. We know there will be other classes. OP is(or seems) concerned that, jedi being jedi, will be stronger than other classes and we'll just see jedi and a few other classes as sidekicks. He clearly doesnt want to sacrifice game lore to make other classes playable (playable as in "on par with jedi") Some said jedi isnt immortal they also die, other people(classes) can hurt them. Come on now, watch the animated series, if you  think force wielders are not stronger than other people (based on the lore) we dont have to discuss this, nothing we can say will change your mind. OP came up with a suggestion to eliminate this problem, i dont agree with his solution as i stated in my previous post. I'm just curious how they will adress this matter. Not bashing the game, not praising it, just wondering.

 

That's about it in a nutshell, also I don't actually like playing Jedi myself. In SWG I unlocked Jedi but just got bored grinding instead of playing. I never played my FS char and became a BH as hunting them was a challenge and alot of fun. Having Jedi being tougher than others was fun for me as the struggle to defeat them was entertaining. My GF was a Jedi and she'd give me nasty looks whenever I wasted another Jedi :)

I just hope that some system is in place to keep an alpha class under control, unless there is no Alpha class and Jedi are just John Doe's with a glowstick :(

Well, Bioware has never disappointed ME before, so we'll just have to see. I highly doubt they'll make an alpha class, because they've surely watched SWG and seen the mistakes it made.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

 

Watch the animated series? Try watching the game's preview trailers.

Most notably, look at the combat scenes with an Ackley or Nexu. Had they been faithful to the "lore" of the movies (much less the cartoons), those fights should have been resolved in one or two hits at best.

But this isn't a movie, it's a game. While it might be great fun to watch Anakin deftly tearing through a score of opponents in the blink of an eye, would it make for a good, compelling game? Maybe for an afternoon or two, perhaps a little longer if you're a huge fan of Dynasty Warriors. But beyond that?

You have to bear in mind that movies, books and graphic novels all have the benefit of an author. Whether the hero/villain succeeds or fails and the bravado they display is all contingent on how it develops the plot or story, which is predetermined long before the audience experiences it. With the exception of cutscenes, games don't have such luxuries. And I contend, they wouldn't be very fun if they did.

Honestly, this reminds me of several discussions I've seen regarding the game, City of Heroes. Time and time again, I've seen people try to draw direct comparisons to comic books. And frankly, their reasoning is just as flawed. To have any kind of persistent, long-term value, games need challenge. "Alpha" classes and godmode just don't cut it.

so we come to a point where i see that our opinions on this thing dont differ at all. i know alpha class and godmode dont make a good game but IP is such that the whole thing is set around a alpha class. with any other shady company(shady as in "i've never heard of them before") you would start doom and gloom posts but Bioware knows better and you start wondering "how they will pass this obstucle?"

if the posts made are an indication to anything many are content with jedi being pulled down from alpha class. Imagine Bioware making other playable/enjoyable classes without touching the alpha class where we see jedi as 1/10th of population if there are 10 classes. With any other company i wouldnt dare dreaming that.   

jedi shouldnt  clickable start but this the time period when people were just discovering the force, I think the jedi should be clickable till say a set limit is reach then upon reaching that limit its no longer accepable as clickable. All others profession are able to access the force but they must be trained in it first before they can go become jedi or sith that way its more realistic cause if we had jedi clickable we shall have everyone set to that and we wont have any type of balance. Im pretty sure bioware realizes that as well cause I mean they wouldnt bother making other professions. I know this is a time period of jedi but you gotta realize that there werent just jedi. We cant simulate proper lore with just jedi. I look at  this way it wont ever be like precu unlock ive accepted that. I just hope there is balance and I know Bioware will do that. I also hope that everyone doesnt whine for nerf with the jedi but I expect that to. I just want customization  of every little detail of my character and just a good community. Only time will tell. But hey thats just my opinion. Eh lets see what happens

i dont like the jedi class at all and i would rather have the game like how swg was at the beginnning. that being said i know there is no way in hell that bioware will not put the jedi class in so i would rather have the class be an unlock, kinda like how deathknights in wow are avalible at level 55. i think that would be better since everyone is gonna want to be a jedi

I stated this in a previous thread, but it's worth repeating here.  This game is not set in the Rebellion era.  Jedi and Sith are all over the place in the KOTOR series.  Furthermore, all the class choices in the series are Jedi classes, meaning that you can't create a non-Jedi in KOTOR 1 oe 2.  And another thing, the concept of non-starter Jedi eventually failed and SOE had to reverse it at a later date, breaking Rebellion-Era canon.  Last but not least, Tabula Rasa was the last game to implement non-starter character creation features, and look at where it ended up.

Given these facts, the concept of having to unlock Jedi would be horrible for TOR.

Unlockable is just RP :)

an Obiwan and his Padawan ! a Master and his apprentice !

that will be cool ! if for to be a jedi you need to fight/group with a master ! :)

and for the start of the game it would be a loto roll

so give us RP server :) special rules may be allways done server side !

and if it is impossible with SW:TOR i hope that an other game on SW Licence will do it a day :)