Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by ianicus

Id have to say I dont agree with your post at all. In most mainstream MMO"s on the market right now, crafted items dont provide people that much of an advantage over other players if at all. Most good gear comes from PVP and raiding in most of the MMO's these days, the only exception ive played is vanguard where alot of the really nice stuff is crafted, until end game. My main problem with your post is the fact that you say crafting makes everyone poor, and unable to afford anything. Your so far off that mark right there its not even funny. Selling raw (harvested) materials on the open markets in MMO's, to crafters!, is one of THE best ways to make money. Its the easiest way to make money in wow, and it sure as heck has helped me make good money in vanguard, and in LOTRO, and in pretty much every other MMO ive played. It seems to me your just angry because everything is priced high and you dont feel like doing your part and putting inn alittle harvesting while you adventure. Ive never done a harvesting "run' I just collect materials while I adventure and ive always done quite well. If in the end I want something crafted I can collect the mats myself if need be and commision a crafter to make it, or I could spend the time to work up crafting myslef, which I find fun, especialy in vanguard. So there I kept it civil, but I dont agree with you at all.

 

Harvesting is a profession that isn't adventurous in nature. You don't harvest in any other RPG game to make money, instead you make money by selling the loot you get and through money drops. WoW in particular requires you to buy crafted goods, mainly gems, enchants, food/drink, and potions if you want to stay competitive in raids. If you don't craft or harvest, which in the end is the same thing really, you are SoL. I'm the pure adventurer type and prefer to make my money through loot and cash drops. When loot and cash drops isn't sufficient enough to buy crafted goods in a RPG, the crafters have too much power.

Whether or not harvesting or crafting is easy, isn't the point. The point is that if an adventurer plays as a pure adventurer, he has no market power in the game economy.

I log into WoW once a week to raid. Milderthed is my name, Gilneas is my server. Look me up if you don't believe me. I make around 200g a week from raiding, which obviously isn't sufficient enough to afford several hundred gold costing enchants, food, elixirs, or the mats to have them crafted. I absolutely WOULD have to do harvesting runs on a daily basis to afford that. Again, I'm playing the RPG the way RPG's have been played for decades. The reason I play online, is that I can adventure with other people, instead of alone. Crafting is an added component, an un-needed component, to the genre that I prefer not to get involved with in any measure, but am forced to in order to continue to play the game the way I prefer to play.

I'm sorry I took you seriously at first, because after reading a few of your responses I've realized you are just like the people that say PVP shouldn't be in games because it makes it to competitive or that raiding shouldn't be in a game because it makes it to competitive. Then you try and act like you know exactly how games were suppose to be played, and that everyone else is wrong (insulting everyone who has a difference of opinion of you in the process), and then you have the balls to act insulted when people comes back with any types of response.

MMORPG's goals have always been to be a real life sim and that is where the fun comes from. You create your character and story how you see fit, not how someone else believes it to be played. Whether it is to be a fearless adventurer, a ruthless villain, or even a crafter.

Crafting  is not making your game stressful. You are making the game stressful for yourself because you take it so seriously. No there is no problem with a game being competitive because some people like that stress of competing, but when they start complaining and asking things to be removed because they don't have the time or just don't feel like putting in the effort to do it there is a problem.

It's like those people that want raiding out of games because they are too stressful and they don't have the time to do them or the people who hate PvP because they aren't good enough to stay competitive.

Enough with that, if you want a game that caters to just your type of gameplay exactly then good luck with that. You'll never find it unless you make it yourself.

If you want a game that will allow you to be the best by doing only want you want to do then you need to stop playing MMOs.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 if it wasn't due to the fact that RPG"s in general cater to adventrous types, not crafter types,

I'd say that's false right there. You are stating your opinion as a fact.

 You see, MMORPG's are games, not second lives, not alternate lives or anything some people like to use them for.

MMORPG's are whatever the player decides to make it. You say they are not "anything some people like to use them for." But if people use them for a purpose then they do, in fact, fit that that purpose, no?

My first point is that the majority of folks are adventurers and have no desire to craft. Their main goal is to experience adventure. Easy enough to understand, right?

My first point is that the majority of folks are adventurers and have no desire to PvP. Their main goal is to experience adventure. Easy enough to understand, right? See what I did there?

Well, the IDEA of crafters offering goods and services sounds just as good in-game as merchants providing goods in the real worlds sounds good, because it offers a service for something we don't want to do ourselves. The difference between real life and a game, is that we only live parts of our characters lives. Most of us only live our characters adventurous part of their lives while in-game, and really only focus on it, while in our real lives, we do many things, because we have to, in order to afford the goods and services needed to survive. We don't play games to experience the same stress.

Again, you are speaking only for yourself. Some people choose to live MORE than just the "adventure part" of their character's life.

My second point is that games with crafting generally require adventurers to buy things from those crafters in order to compete in-game. This can be good or bad, depending on the players, but it turns out bad, because people don't play games to experience real life stress, in-game.

I have yet to play an MMORPG that absolutely requires you to purchase something from a crafter in order to "compete".  What is the definition of "compete" as you are using it? To be an end game raider, tackling the newest and hardest content? Or someone who logs in to the game and "adventures" with friends, killing beasts and completing quests? Either way, I haven't seen crafted items be "required" yet, if you know of a specific example where they are, please let me know.

The bottom line is that people are greedy and as long as greed exist, avenues of allowing greed to ruin a game should not exist. In the games freshest in my memory, only crafters can produce most of the materials needed to craft the goods aventurers need in order to stay competitive in the game.

Ok first, you make a rather rude generalization about people being greedy. Not a good way to get a point across. Then you say adventurers NEED to purchase crafted items to stay "competitive" without actually telling us what you mean by "competitive".

Therefore, if an adventurer cannot raise enough money by adventuring, which most cannot without a lot of grinding, then they are forced to take up a crafting profession themselves in order to create their own stuff or supply materials for other crafters to create what the adventurers need.

Adventurers like to adventure, right? So how is adventuring even more to get more gold a bad thing? You call it "grinding". I say it's just adventuring over and over again.

So my third point is that the materials needed to craft things adventurers need are so overpriced that adventurers are forced to craft in order to stay competitive.

What materials are "overpriced"? An item is worth only what a player will pay for it. Sure you can say your Rusty Short Sword is worth 90 billion gold, but who is actually going to pay that? Nobody! "Overpriced" is a very subjective term. Also, there you go with that "competitive" term again....

Let me bring you back to one of my earlier points. MMORPG's are GAMES that people play for FUN, and do not want to deal with the same stress they deal with in real life.

Stress? What stress? Just because YOU may feel stressed out with crafting does not mean the rest of the millions of MMORPG players out there do too. I find crafting new items pretty fun.

I'm not saying you shouldn't work for things in a game, because working for something brings a greater degree of satisfaction than getting it instanty.

Here we agree.

BUT, players should be able to play that GAME in the way they see fit.

You CAN play it the way you see fit. If all you want to do is run around in a circle for hours on end clucking like a chicken you CAN. 

Considering RPG's are known to cater towards adventurous people who like to build their characters up as they experience new adventures, it's only logical to expect developers to allow adventurers to be able to make it in a game by just adventuring.

You can make it in game by just adventuring. Name an example where adventurers absolutely have to buy something from a player crafter?

An imbalance is created when crafting is introduced in a game, because the crafted goods are needed in order to further adventure.

Again, you state that as if it is fact. Example please?

This gives crafters power over the adventurers that adventurers don't have over crafters. Therefore, greed wins over crafters and the price of this greed is adventurers starting up crafting professions in order to compete in a genre whose very name has for decades catered to the adventurer.

Adventurers can choose not to buy from a crafter who charges too much. And then the prices will fall. This is an example of what I said earlier. The value of an item is determined by how much a BUYER is willing to pay for the item.

The genre isn't MMOSIMS, or MMOMarkets; it's MMORPG's. I support crafting in MMO's as long as adventurers have the same power over crafters as crafters have over adventurers.

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. It is not a MMOAdventuring Game. Crafting is role-playing too. And your whole power struggle argument isn't good for the same reason I gave right above this comment.

/discuss

P.S.- KEEP IT CIVIL PLEASE

My thoughts in red.  I clipped out some bits of the post that didnt have much to do with my replies.

and this is the type of attitude that has this genre being dumbed down daily. Its why these current MMOs are crap, because of people like the OP who only want "fast paced ninja action power combat" and "face melting attacks".

so now we have "themepark" MMOs massive single player games where socialization doesnt matter, complexity doesn't matter in fact complexity is not even wanted. games that are catering to those that just want to log in pwn some face and log out in 30 minutes or less.

I remember when MMORPGs were living world and aspiring to be just that. thats the roots of MMOs UO, AC and EQ ... even MUDs were all aspiring to be living worlds with adventurers, crafters, socializers. now thanks to people like the OP soon MMORPGs will just be glorified God of War "RPGs" with a chat box tied to it. Just mash your attack buttons till your fingers bleed against hordes of mobs with the game screaming "AWESOME COMBO!" like those twitch games ... games for those A.D.D. gamer.

and heres the best part ... I'm not even a crafter. I don't enjoy crafting and have barely ever done any crafting. I AM the adventure type you talk about, I love dungeon crawls and raiding thats my playstyle ... thats what i do when i log in.

whats next? people don't enjoy playing healers so lets get rid of them after all who in a regular RPG plays a pure healer? thats not fun and its a game after all. Lets get rid of raiding, because in what RPG does it take 25 people to kill something? thats not fun and this is a game afterall. Lets get rid of death as a whole ... deaths not fun and this is a game .... oh wait thats right morons like the OP have already gotten death basically taken out of games

I would agree with the OP if they reworded a bit of what they wrote.

Crafting does NOT belong in the majority of mmorpg's today based on the design decisions made.

In the very few MMO's that have been player economy based.. crafting works very well and adds a great dimension to the game.  There are also other things (mostly positive) that these games have had.

In the general Leve, loot and raid based .. mmorpgs.. no crafting doesn't really add much.  Oh beyond the crafts (if any) that make "use" items so they are always in demand.

Look at EQ2.. how many T8 suits of MC armor do you really think you are going to sell...

So in the sense of general MMO design I would actually agree.

Then again I don't agree with the general direction of MMO design.. and believe the core systems use do not belong in an MMO...  so in my "world of logic" crafting does belong in MMO's when you use the systems and MMO should use...

ya I know odd..

Another person who fails to realise that not everyone has fun in the same way.

The beauty of a true MMORPG is that it is an artificial world. A world where players of all types can find something to do that they consider fun.

Some people like to craft, some like PVP, some like exploring, some like hunting....and an MMORPG is an environment where all of these people can enjoy their preferred playstyle together.

Now days, we have the drive from a certain group of people to attempt to make MMORPGs as simple as possible. They don't want anything more complex than a linear FPS with gear and levels.

Of course, this is why games that cater to those people struggle for survival after the first month or two. These people quickly get bored, and move on to the next game. 

What we are left with is a trail of dead games, and game developers beginning to look at the MMORPG industry as poison.

I'd have to say that for this statement to be even remotely possible, you would have to say that Adventuring does not belong in a MMORPG.  To limit the genre to just one subset of playstyle is plainly ignorant.  You're limiting yourself with no good reason, and if that mentality was shared by developers, you'd be limiting others as well.  

Vanguard has 3 spheres of play.  Adventuring, Crafting, Diplomacy.  To limit a game to just one would reduce all the other compelling ways to bring people into this genre of game.  The real secret to bringing people into these games isn't to make things super easy and solo friendly.  The real secret is to have as many compelling ways for people to play.  And just as importantly, those reasons have to not only be fun, but important to the game itself.   Vanguard may not be a great example, since Crafting and Diplomacy are mostly pointless, but if they were incorporated in an important and necessary way to the game then that my friend is a win-win scenario for everyone.  If VG has given us 3 spheres, who's to say there's not more on the horizon, just waiting for a good developer to show us the way?

If you can't agree with any of those statements, it sounds like you're a themepark MOG player.  That would be a Multiplayer Online Game.  You're not really looking for Role Playing or really anything on a Massive scale.  That's what I am getting from your little arguement. So maybe you'd be best sticking with games that cater to your playstyle?   Just do me a favor and dont try to limit mine. 

Originally posted by Antarious

Look at EQ2.. how many T8 suits of MC armor do you really think you are going to sell...

actually T8 MC suits are very good (even at one point players complained about them being too good). they are great starter gear for the 72+ game until you can get instance/void armor and obviously raid armor.

Originally posted by Ravanos

Originally posted by Antarious

Look at EQ2.. how many T8 suits of MC armor do you really think you are going to sell...

actually T8 MC suits are very good (even at one point players complained about them being too good). they are great starter gear for the 72+ game until you can get instance/void armor and obviously raid armor.

And when priced at 3X fuel cost they sell very well........maybe somebody's on the wrong server?

Op my thoughts on your topic are as follows:

1. The fact that you are a father, husband or have worked/studied in economics is irrelevant.  One persons monthly sub fee is as good as the next and so long as a player isn't spoiling another persons gameplay or breaking the terms of service for that game they are free to do whatever aspect of gameplay they wish to.  You have no right telling other people what they may or may not do to find fun, which you clearly state in the second paragraph.

2. I find that crafters are a very mature group of players that charge quite reasonable prices for their goods in game, while relying on adventurers for materials.  I find that adventurers selling off the latest fantastic rare item/loot drop they have acquired for an astronomical amount of gold/credits are the greedy ones and gaining power over other players.  Another factor in one player being greedy and getting power to buy things is people who buy gold in game for real money, a very greedy practice that is usually against a games rules.

3. One of your replies stated that you would have called the thread along the lines of how crafting should not apply to more recent MMO's.  You should have called it this it isn't long winded and makes some sense in that modern games are very shallow and crafting is more an after thought feature.  However you didn't do this and it now just looks like you are changing your thoughts on the original post than to admit you might be mistaken.

Finally why are taking the comment to expand your mind so personally if you don't like other people opinions on your thoughts you shouldn't start threads with titles that people might disagree with.

I think the only way to settle this is, to have crafting and adventuring complement each other.

How awful!  

Well I guess the OP will not enjoy the next thread I will start entitled:

"Why combat does not belong in MMORPG's"

how about you, would you go for that?

Originally posted by ketrine

How awful!  

Well I guess the OP will not enjoy the next thread I will start entitled:

"Why combat does not belong in MMORPG's"

how about you, would you go for that?

only crafting? ... Massive Multiplayer Online Sweat shops!

The innovation this genre need!

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.  You think adventurers are too dependent on crafters?  I've always felt that crafters are too dependent on adventurers for both materials and money, which is generated by the mere process of adventuring in most games.

You say that adventurers are forced to pick up a crafting skill to compete?  Well in many games crafters HAVE to pick up an adventuring skill.  Period.  They don't even have a choice.  Often, crafting abilities are tied to level, which can only be increased by adventuring.  You may say you're less competitive if you don't craft, but in how many games are you literally forced to craft the way crafters are forced to adventure?

Nevertheless, I agree that the current system has its problems.  Crafting often doesn't work as a system as well as it should, but that doesn't mean it doesn't belong.

I had a whole trollish but witty response but what is the point?

Different strokes for different folks.  Some people want to play a world simulator, some people want to play in a theme park, some people want to play second life and do degenerate and lascivious things like campaign for politicians (The sex industry in Second Life is actually honorable compared to that).

Basically, MMORPGs should be diverse as humanity is diverse.

I noticed the OP made the point of repeatedly trying to drill in the fact that its a game. Well if everyone understands that its a game then how do they get stressed over crafting or stressed at all? A game frustrates you? Sure, but to say a game would stress you out? I've never encountered a crafting system so complex or infuriating that it made me want to go smoke or take anti-depressants.

I'm a bit of a crafter myself and in most games I've found crafting to be on the boring side and mostly something to pass the time or add some depth to the game by having guilds and crafting classes or skills.

I think the majority of people have taken the OP out of context, personally.

One of the things I really hate doing is having to gather materials to give to a crafter to get something, especially when you're trying to play through a game at your own pace. Now, I know allot of that can be attributed to the guild structure in many games, such as WoW, Lineage II, etc. However, I feel that the economy does not improve this, and lead's to a mentality that does not favor gamers who want to play at their own pace.

Many of you have brought up that the OP marks a certain type of player, "the adventurer", the mainstay of a game, and doesn't take into account other gaming styles, such as crafting. However, I believe the post (though I would disagree with some of the wording) does carry some weight. Many people on this thread for example for example have not taken into account the playing style of the poster for this thread, or have crudly said that they are completely wrong, or said that they are someone who feels that all competition, etc, should be removed.

So, to my opinion...

I personally feel that a good MMO allows all people to play the way they want to, within the means of the mechanics and constraints of any virtual world. The problem I would say is that these mechanics are not always well defined. Most games, because of the limitation of the mechanics, support a set of playstyles, but due to many of their systems, they favor a specific subset of that over the others. This is nothing more than an optimization problem, to be honest, as guides are often released witht the best ways to get from "Lvl 1-80" for certain classes, or "Max skills 0-100..." etc.

I am not saying this is directly the fault of players or the developers either. Players, especially those who are either competitive or completionist, which I tend to be, attempt to optimize the way they do things in any game. Eventually, an optimization is bound to be found, and once it has been, the game becomes, though time consuming, a trivial act. It can still be enjoyable to some, but it often fosters a mentality that others should do it the faster way as well, or they're just not seen as competitive or wanting to progress further in the game. I've seen this allot, especially in WoW and similar guild structures.

(I have been kicked out of allot; I eventually quit, because while I like to optimize, I like to optimize my way, which didn't work for allot of my guildies; they also expected me to make commitments that just didn't give me time in real life to do real life things; my friend is now going through the exact same thing, though he has put allot of real life on hold for his guild; excuse my tangent).

I will also note that I cannot completely fault developers for it either, though it is usually a system that is added half-assed near the end in the development of a game. It might be planned, but usually isn't given allot of attention.

Overall, I think that "adventurers" as you would call them, or non-crafters if you will, should not have to be relient on "crafters", and vice versa, unless that is the way the game was specifically structured and done well to boot.

Originally posted by saraphimknig

I think the majority of people have taken the OP out of context, personally.

One of the things I really hate doing is having to gather materials to give to a crafter to get something, especially when you're trying to play through a game at your own pace. Now, I know allot of that can be attributed to the guild structure in many games, such as WoW, Lineage II, etc. However, I feel that the economy does not improve this, and lead's to a mentality that does not favor gamers who want to play at their own pace.

Many of you have brought up that the OP marks a certain type of player, "the adventurer", the mainstay of a game, and doesn't take into account other gaming styles, such as crafting. However, I believe the post (though I would disagree with some of the wording) does carry some weight. Many people on this thread for example for example have not taken into account the playing style of the poster for this thread, or have crudly said that they are completely wrong, or said that they are someone who feels that all competition, etc, should be removed.

So, to my opinion...

I personally feel that a good MMO allows all people to play the way they want to, within the means of the mechanics and constraints of any virtual world. The problem I would say is that these mechanics are not always well defined. Most games, because of the limitation of the mechanics, support a set of playstyles, but due to many of their systems, they favor a specific subset of that over the others. This is nothing more than an optimization problem, to be honest, as guides are often released witht the best ways to get from "Lvl 1-80" for certain classes, or "Max skills 0-100..." etc.

I am not saying this is directly the fault of players or the developers either. Players, especially those who are either competitive or completionist, which I tend to be, attempt to optimize the way they do things in any game. Eventually, an optimization is bound to be found, and once it has been, the game becomes, though time consuming, a trivial act. It can still be enjoyable to some, but it often fosters a mentality that others should do it the faster way as well, or they're just not seen as competitive or wanting to progress further in the game. I've seen this allot, especially in WoW and similar guild structures.

(I have been kicked out of allot; I eventually quit, because while I like to optimize, I like to optimize my way, which didn't work for allot of my guildies; they also expected me to make commitments that just didn't give me time in real life to do real life things; my friend is now going through the exact same thing, though he has put allot of real life on hold for his guild; excuse my tangent).

I will also note that I cannot completely fault developers for it either, though it is usually a system that is added half-assed near the end in the development of a game. It might be planned, but usually isn't given allot of attention.

Overall, I think that "adventurers" as you would call them, or non-crafters if you will, should not have to be relient on "crafters", and vice versa, unless that is the way the game was specifically structured and done well to boot.

I don't know of any games where either has to rely on the other. The problem is that these people aren't upset because they rely on each other, they are upset because they want the best of everything and in order to do that you have to partake in every aspect of the game.

You can't just say I want to play it my way and get everything by doing that, but at the same time it doesn't mean you have to rely on someone to play effectively. You can just raid and still be an effective player or just PVP and be effective. You won't be the best, but I think in order to be the best you have to put in that extra effort, and if the OP doesn't have it in him to take those extra steps then he has to settle with being average.

Originally posted by pb1285n

 

I don't know of any games where either has to rely on the other. The problem is that these people aren't upset because they rely on each other, they are upset because they want the best of everything and in order to do that you have to partake in every aspect of the game.

You can't just say I want to play it my way and get everything by doing that, but at the same time it doesn't mean you have to rely on someone to play effectively. You can just raid and still be an effective player or just PVP and be effective. You won't be the best, but I think in order to be the best you have to put in that extra effort, and if the OP doesn't have it in him to take those extra steps then he has to settle with being average.

exactly!

When the original poster said "be competitive" I knew he was talking about exaclty what you just said.  

No one can play a game at their own pace and at the same time be competitve.  Those two statements contradict each other.  Either you play at your own pace regardless of how your gear is compared to others or you want to be in a measuring content for gear. 

The only way to have the above is to remove any obstacles or effort required to achieve anything in a game so that everyone can get whatever they want without any effort or interaction with other players.

Furthermore I just don't perscribe to the mindset that anything is "needed" in an mmo.  Obviously there are nice things that are desirable and it is important to have goals, but nothing is manditory as far as I can tell.  Especially to the point where developers need to remove an entire economy or playstyle option.

Wow, I just don't know where to start.  I guess I'll start with a question.  What mmo have you played?  Because it seams to me that you have not played a single mmo ever with those statements.

Excluding UO and I guess Eve, which are different designs from most  mmos, crafting is little more then a novality feature.  No one has to buy anything from a crafter because all the gear from quest rewards and drops are far superior to crafted items.

First of all, the reason people got into MMOs in the first place in the late 90's is because they weren't "adventurer types" in an era dominated by "adventurer games" like Tomb Raider.  I'm not saying things haven't changed, but at the start of these games with UO and MUDs, the games were dominated by "builder types," not "destroyer/achiever" types.  Part of the reason MMOs took off was because they offered aspects of play that weren't available in action/adventure games...aspects like crafting.

Secondly, MMOs are by their definitions "second lives," whether we try to mask them or not.  That's because they are persistant worlds that change alongside the persistant characters that also develop and change.  The question, therefore, isn't whether they should try to be "second lives," because they cannot help but be second lives whether there is crafting or not.  Rather, the question we should be asking is to what degree is an online life meaningful, and what are the avenues available to find meaning.  Crafting is just one example of an area where a player can find meaning through play.

I agree that adventurers have no desire to craft, but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate a good crafting system when it's there.  They benefit from a good in-game economy, because at least they know the goods are available and can be procured.  The only other alternative is the looting system, which causes adventurers to grind meaningless MOBs until they meet that 1/10,000 chance for the loot they want, or they have to suffer through raids that take multiple hours to complete, with more players than there are loots to satisfy them.

I have to question the thought that in-game economies and crafting causes "stress" for these reasons:

1)  There is no more stressful activity in the games than combat, especially the stress that comes with grinding for loots.

2)  If people play the games for combat, then they want more stress in their lives, not less.

3)  Crafting and other activities are actually breaks from the stress of non-stop combat, and allow someone to find meaningful reasons to stay in the game when they are "stressed out" doing quests.

I mean, how stressful can it be to trade the gold you looted off of monsters or earned during quests for the equipment you need?  Is it any more stressful than grinding MOB after MOB and coming up empty, simply because the random number in the loot generator didn't give you something?  Is it any more stressful than running quest after quest and boss after boss only to get some loot you don't want, don't need, or can't use after all the effort?

I also don't think that crafting systems create greed as much as looting systems and item stores create greed.  Because the root of greed is the luxury of not having to care about others, which is something that games which allow players to acquire all things promotes.

I admit that sometimes, resources can be hard to find, or may be expensive.  But if they are so rare and gamebreaking that the rarity is an issue, then the developer can simply cause more to spawn.  The problem with heroic weapons and equipment is that they can only be acquired via heroic encounter, which means that there will always be either a shortage of them (causing stress) or an overabundance of them, meaning that the heroic item is no longer very heroic.  Better to put lootmaking in the hands of the players, where they can fill any shortage that may arise through crafting new things.

I agree with saraphimknig who explains that good games try to accomodate preferences, not favor some over others.  When economies are well designed, everybody's needs can be satisfied by doing the thing they are good at doing.  Thus, adventurers can adventure exclusively, bringing that wealth back to town, where crafters can craft exclusively, exchanging that wealth for the goods and services they produce.  Both depend on each other, and therefore, the needs of both are satisfied.

But if you give adventurers the power to equip and tend to themselves without any tradesman, then how is the tradesman going to find satisfaction in the game?  By doing the thing they don't want to do (combat)?  How is that fair to the crafter?  If the answer to the in-game economy problem the OP talks about is to "wrest power from the crafters," then there's no reason for the crafter to exist, which is probably what the OP wants anyway.

But when we take away "building" and "servicing" from the games, we alienate a lot of computer gamers who take pleasure in such activities; like the millions who play The Sims or Sim City.  We also reduce the ambiance of the game worlds.  These are the folks that bring the games to life, and their departure makes the games seem shallow and bland.  It would be like playing Fallout 3 without Megaton; it just wouldn't be as good.

So to conclude, I personally think that there isn't much value in the price we pay for these games when crafting and other non-combat things aren't around.  Because all that's left is just a combat engine, a loot table, animations, and a thousand clones of xXDEATHDEALERXx running around doing the same things...and that's just boring.