Discuss..

explain to my how you avoid an endgame.

Endgame should be something that is off in the distance and middlegame should never be sacrificed to make a good endgame.

MMOs are about the journey, not the destination.

Originally posted by fyerwall

Endgame should be something that is off in the distance and middlegame should never be sacrificed to make a good endgame.

MMOs are about the journey, not the destination.

in your opinion.

I'm sure there are a good amount of people that don't care about the journey. My brother is one.

Strangely enough, I agree with Mr.Bloodsworth.

An MMO shouldn't have an 'Endgame', it should just have the game. Why does what you do when you're building your character have to change, or be different than what you do when your character is complete?

I think this problem of "endgame" stems from unbalanced and unproportional level systems. Levels are given to much decisivness on the power of your character. Take WoW for example. A level 20 doesn't compare to a level 30, which doesn't come close to a level 40, and on and on. When your character gains enourmous power as it progresses, what you are doing must constantly change. Therefore, when you finally reach max level, you have reached the final hurdle and are now able to do 10x more than you could at the level before. No one is going to bring a level 79 into a raid in WoW, and there are no raids for anything less than 80(well there are old raids, but no one does them because they are pointless). So when you reach 80, suddenly there is a plethora of new stuff to do, thus an endgame.

For me, endgame also gives the feeling that anything before max level is pointless and just a timesink.

If games were to implement a more discrete power system, where a maxed out character is more powerful than a newer character, but not invinsible, than you would see the line between an "endgame" and the "rest of the game" blur. In this way, newer characters can be playing with and doing the same things as older characters, and it won't matter as much. This would also give the developers a lot more time to work on content that EVERYONE could do, not just people at max level.

Originally posted by Capn23

explain to my how you avoid an endgame.

By sticking to the original premise of a MMO? Persistant, dynamic, and never ending.

You see, what an endgame really is a time sink; it’s a way to buy time while more content is created by the developers.

Endgame is a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales. To many people associate “Endgame” with challenge, when in most DIKU mmos, "Challenge" typically; simply means time invested not true challenge of encounter.

Originally posted by fyerwall

Endgame should be something that is off in the distance and middlegame should never be sacrificed to make a good endgame.

MMOs are about the journey, not the destination.

The journey would be great if it had a point. If it had a great story, a purpose, then I would love the journey. The first time through the content of Guild Wars I really enjoyed it because it had good story, meaningful missions, and it was fun. The "journey" in WoW on the other hand was nothing but a complete waste of time filled with dull and boring tasks designed to be a timesink. In that case, I could care less for the journey as the journey isn't challenging, isn't fun, and has no point other than to waste your time.

Originally posted by Capn23

I'm sure there are a good amount of people that don't care about the journey. My brother is one.

Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. Does you brother also skip tot he end of a book? If so, I would say that book also suffers from the same issues.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Capn23

I'm sure there are a good amount of people that don't care about the journey. My brother is one.

Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. Does you brother also skip tot he end of a book? If so, I would say that book also suffers from the same issues.

 

Maybe if quests were more than just "Go kill x of y" or fedex quests...and the quests actually make you feel like you've accomplished something. I'm starting to have the same problem. If the quests aren't interesting and if they don't immerse you in the story...they aren't fun. Night Mode Tortage in AoC is what I want...only in group form. I really felt like I was working towards something bigger than myself. The quests after Tortage are okay, but I find myself skipping through the text because it just isn't as interesting as Tortage and it doesn't give me the same feeling. I think a game that can make quests fun and worth it again will get both me and him back into the journey. Right now...the journey just isn't that interesting. If you've killed a boar once, you've killed it a million times.

 People that think endgame is the most important thing fail . Enjoy the journey.

Oh noes it's the new kind of gamers ,mind fu*ked gamers 

The 'end' just follws the natural progression of all things.

Originally posted by alessiora

 People that think endgame is the most important thing fail . Enjoy the journey.

 

Oh noes it's the new kind of gamers ,mind fu*ked gamers 

No, it's the new kind of games, where the journey is boring and pointless.

 It's because gamers want only the endagame. They stopped enjoying the journey long time ago.

Originally posted by Capn23

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Capn23

I'm sure there are a good amount of people that don't care about the journey. My brother is one.

Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. Does you brother also skip tot he end of a book? If so, I would say that book also suffers from the same issues.

 

 

Maybe if quests were more than just "Go kill x of y" or fedex quests...and the quests actually make you feel like you've accomplished something. I'm starting to have the same problem. If the quests aren't interesting and if they don't immerse you in the story...they aren't fun. Night Mode Tortage in AoC is what I want...only in group form. I really felt like I was working towards something bigger than myself. The quests after Tortage are okay, but I find myself skipping through the text because it just isn't as interesting as Tortage and it doesn't give me the same feeling. I think a game that can make quests fun and worth it again will get both me and him back into the journey. Right now...the journey just isn't that interesting. If you've killed a boar once, you've killed it a million times.

Good example, this is definitely part of the cause.

Originally posted by alessiora

 It's because gamers want only the endagame.

This was not always true. Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. They have been conditioned.
 

Originally posted by alessiora

 It's because gamers want only the endagame. They stopped enjoying the journey long time ago.

That's because the journey has become nothing more than a boring time sink. Give me an enjoyable journey and I will enjoy it. If their just going to give me 1000 tasks to run before I get handed max level, I'll pass.

one word.
Darkfall?

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Capn23

I'm sure there are a good amount of people that don't care about the journey. My brother is one.

Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. Does you brother also skip tot he end of a book? If so, I would say that book also suffers from the same issues.

 

Not to generalize but.

The same people who rush to the end is by a large probability the same people who would never pick up a book.

Books usually requires patience and imagination.

Not saying the "rushers" lack those abilities but, yeah, I kinda am.

Probably yet another reason why WoW is so wildly popular.

And the thing is, WoW do not lack story or lore, there is an abundance if you read and not just click accept.

Most people do not, and there is no need to.

I did not in WoW, and I am a lore junkie, I really like the stories behind things but in that game it felt kind of pointless.

EQ2 was an entirely different story, not that you need to read there either but the simple fact that you could collect books and put them in your own library and read when you wanted, well that was/is awesome.

There need to be more to a game then mindless killing for the player to actually feel alive in the world and care about what has happened, what is happening and above all what is going to happen.

Besides the new loot introduced.

I play EVE.

Near as I can tell, there is no endgame in the traditional sense,  the closest to it being I suppose able to own and fly a Titan.

Or control the entire known universe.....which some folks are still trying to do.

Good last two posts.

I hope this wont devolve into a "my game your game" topic. I feel this topic transcends that, as I wasn’t talking about any one game. Examples are fine...however, you do not have to give examples in a specific game.