rofl, the fact that they even include death penalty..

Death penalty and RvR/PvP are not compatable. There can be a time/distance penalty but players are used to not lossing stuff. Does raise the interesting question of rezzing "ship" in the middle of a battle :)

Personally I am not concerned, the vast majory of players (hence customers) are dead against it, so to speak. Therefore, it is unlikely that a game aimed at the majority of causual gamers and Star Trek lovers is going to put such a major dampner on any PvP/RvR.

Are there go reasons for putting in Death Penalties, certainly; and these can even create a good game. However, does it add to the fun? Well I would argue that charging into impossible fights is what makes PvP fun; and that does not happen if you lose your level 50 Star Ship (=6 months of causual game play).

Originally posted by noblot

Death penalty and RvR/PvP are not compatable. There can be a time/distance penalty but players are used to not lossing stuff. Does raise the interesting question of rezzing "ship" in the middle of a battle :)

Personally I am not concerned, the vast majory of players (hence customers) are dead against it, so to speak. Therefore, it is unlikely that a game aimed at the majority of causual gamers and Star Trek lovers is going to put such a major dampner on any PvP/RvR.

Are there go reasons for putting in Death Penalties, certainly; and these can even create a good game. However, does it add to the fun? Well I would argue that charging into impossible fights is what makes PvP fun; and that does not happen if you lose your level 50 Star Ship (=6 months of causual game play).

The people against it are not the target market for this game. This isnt a RvR / PvP focused game nor is it designed for the wow crowd.

If you look at the shows there arent alot of ships getting blowed up. Severely damaged yes but not destroyed. So maybe a system where your ship gets alot of damage and you have to repair it at a starbase for a cost. In the shows they also seem to be able to make hotfixes to the ships even when they are pretty banged up so maybe you can temp fix your ship and get outa the hotspot to the nearest base.

"Captains log: This is Captain Kirk on the starship Enterprise T. I was grinding Gorn in sector M4 when a mob of Romulans popped up, lost my ship again."       ... that just sounds so wrong.

I'm hoping for something related to COH/COV because the only real penalty in that was that you traveled half-way across the map... sometimes. If it has to be a little worse, then I'd go with the WoW penalty of 75% loss of all your stats for 10 minutes. But I do not want to lose ships, and I don't think that Cryptic is gonna have that as their penalty because they said they want to make it fun and to canon. That penalty fits neither of those descriptions.

I think the death penalty should be realistic. If you get beamed off or shuttled out before your ship blows up ...then great...Not canon?...I don't understand this thinking.  The novels/comics/movies/tv series are full of destroyed ships...not the main characters/ships usually...but this is a Star Trek Universe Online game.There were probably Starfleet vessels getting reamed up and down,..while Kirk saves his ship from The Squire of Gothos.At least there should be in a living universe...if not on the screen then behind the scenes.That's why I don't like the "everyones a captain and has a ship" idea...this sucks..what if i don't want to be a captain. What if I want to be a med officer or science officer..or work the ship cantina. Being a captain should be earned..this sounds like a Star Trek : You Be the Star MMO....Captain should be a special breed.....parallel this to the way Jedi was and what it became in SWG. It just kills the game ..imo. At least that's the way the game sounded to me...they're even making it in a more war-torn era..but not allowing ships to be destroyed...that would be lame.  A good crew working together with a good captain..will save a ship most times. I just don't want  SpaceWOW. My opinions are based on scatterings of posts..interviews and articles i've read...but not too recently...please educate me if things have changed.

So...i read up on the website..and..well...your just a ship right?...you just explore and classify planets and do battle...or are there Individual avatars?..anyone know?...it seems you're either a Klingon or Starfleet captain. and that's all. sorry..i love star trek..but this does not sound very fun to me. Maybe I'll be wrong...i hope so.

Originally posted by BarCrow

So...i read up on the website..and..well...your just a ship right?...you just explore and classify planets and do battle...or are there Individual avatars?..anyone know?...it seems you're either a Klingon or Starfleet captain. and that's all. sorry..i love star trek..but this does not sound very fun to me. Maybe I'll be wrong...i hope so.

I will try to answer your questions, from what I have read and seen,

What I have read, and seen from screen shots/videos, you will be an avatar. that can beam down to planets and explore the planets meet alien races, etc. You also will be able to walk around your ship, invite friends to it, and also have on ship combat with the other factions. As of now you will be able to chose between 6 races, and they have stated there will be a way to make yourself an alien race.

While you are warping through space, or doing space battles , then yes you are the ship.

This came is skilled based, so far as I can tell. and you will not just be a ship captain. you can also be an engineer, doctor, securty specialist. etc. so when you beam down to a planet I think that is the role you would play, when grouped with others for away missions.

When the game launches, you will only be able to choose either Starfleet or Klingon factions. but I think more will be added in expansion packs.

I used to be in the column for no death penalty, but after reading some of the posts...

You're right....low levels should have low penalty...but if you've played awhile and  venture out into the Black...KNOWING the dangers/risks, well...

"...in space...no one can here you QQ..."

but save the XP, alright?!?!

I believe not having a death penalty would be a big mistake. I also believe a total loss of your ship after your first death would be totally wrong as well. Here is my suggestion:

Have a death penalty for PVE ONLY but with stages -

PVE Only

Stage 1 - you are defeated in a mission. You and your ship are towed to the nearest Starbase.

A. Your ship can only be repaired up to 50% of its previous health. In order to heal your ship to 100% strength you will have to wait 30 minutes.

B. If you choose to go into battle again at 50% strength and you are defeated again before the 30 minute penalty has passed, you can heal your ship up to 25% strength. If you continue fighting within that 30 minute penalty period you could lose your ship forever.

C. During the 30 minute period your ship will also lose strength in sensor readings, shields, warp drive, etc.

D. Each time you are required to take your ship in for repairs, you will be required to purchase your repairs from a player controlled engineer.

E. Your ship should have a "wear and tear" to it. Meaning after so many deaths, your ship will no longer be able to return to full strength. This would include shields, warp drive, etc. After so many deaths you would be forced to have to purchase a new ship. 

If you choose to ignore your ships' warning then you deserve to lose your ship. This would allow players to make risky decisions without having to be too concern about losing their ship after one death.

After two deaths in less than 30 minutes most people who love their ships, would think twice about going into battle again.

This would also settle the issue for a player controlled economy.

This should settle the issue of having a death penalty.

NO DEATH PENALTY FOR PVP

How does this sound????

To the OP and those people against death penalty: Death penalty is what makes the game look real, is what makes the adrenaline flow and what makes it a lot more fun.

What kind of PvP will it be if your ship cannot be destroyed? if you risk NOTHING? I am playing a MMO with a large death penalty and its a lot more fun.

And what the hell is the fun in PvE besides driving you to PVP? came on, AI ships will always do the same and after you kill 2, its always the same stuff. AI cannot match a human player.

Theres nothing better than fighting another human player in a fair fight and destroying his ship, and it feels a lot better if you risk something (it is pixels!)

Carebears should play single player games (and WoW for that matter) and stop whinning over death penalties.

 Dont get me wrong, I dont mean that you have to get crushed if you die, PvP should be cheap in his basic version, and it has to be about skill, not about gear or more grinding. There should be high end ships and gear, but only marginally better than the basic version. This would make a goal for people to craft as well. And pvp should not be mandatory, but would be the only way to achieve some kind of RvR victory or some special grinding. This would make economic and crafting play stiles more rewarding.

I agree. Of course there should be death penalty for death. I like the ideas Derektodd had, in the shows the ships could take a helluva beating but still function, not near full capacity but still going. Star trek II, Enterprise was hit bad but they managed to get some stuff back online and save the day, In ST:VOY the "Year of Hell" I think the episodes are called the Voyager takes a crap load of damage but keeps going albeit with very limited functionality but going nevertheless.

The ships in ST can take a lot of damage and still keep going but they are not indestructible. Taking alot of damage has to require some sort of extra care at a starbase and take a while to repair. Starships do blow up, its not often but they do so ship loss should be ingame in some way to deter people from just jumping in no matter what the situation is or  what condition the ship is in.

Originally posted by isolor

Originally posted by BarCrow

So...i read up on the website..and..well...your just a ship right?...you just explore and classify planets and do battle...or are there Individual avatars?..anyone know?...it seems you're either a Klingon or Starfleet captain. and that's all. sorry..i love star trek..but this does not sound very fun to me. Maybe I'll be wrong...i hope so.

 

I will try to answer your questions, from what I have read and seen,

What I have read, and seen from screen shots/videos, you will be an avatar. that can beam down to planets and explore the planets meet alien races, etc. You also will be able to walk around your ship, invite friends to it, and also have on ship combat with the other factions. As of now you will be able to chose between 6 races, and they have stated there will be a way to make yourself an alien race.

While you are warping through space, or doing space battles , then yes you are the ship.

This came is skilled based, so far as I can tell. and you will not just be a ship captain. you can also be an engineer, doctor, securty specialist. etc. so when you beam down to a planet I think that is the role you would play, when grouped with others for away missions.

When the game launches, you will only be able to choose either Starfleet or Klingon factions. but I think more will be added in expansion packs.

If this is as you describe then I'm a little relieved...might try the game. I'm still not keen on the "everyone is the Captain"..or the whole crew, for that matter.Still think separate players and/or npcs should perform individual crew duties....oh well.

Well while I'm against ship loss I don't think there should be no penalty either. I personally think that your ship should be able to be damaged to a just barely functional state and you will have to repair it before it can be used to it's full capacity again. This would cost you in both resources and time to repair. For a heavily damaged large cruiser or dreadnaught this could be a considerable setback. Ship loss just doesn't fit well in the Star Trek universe as most ships are given to their captains by their respective fleets. They don't pay for them out of their own pockets. Your rank will denote what ships you can have so ship loss would be meaningless. Your fleet would just replace it with another one.

This works well in EVE but would be a huge mistake for STO as the economy will be very different. Rank and prestige will get you your ship, not just merely having enough ISK to buy another one.

Bren

i think destroying a pc ship should give a reward such as mats/resources/prestige, but there should be no penalty for dying except to get respawned at the nearest starbase.

some people want something like eve, but in what way is eve anything like star trek except both being in space?

as far as the heavy damage penalty thing goes, do you really want to sit around for 15+ minutes while your ship repairs in the middle of a pack of klingon marauders hoping they simply don't de-cloak as soon as you start moving again, or respawn in a different area?

I'm probably going to get a lot of flak over this, but I feel it needs to be said. WOW and EVE players shouldn't even bother with this game.  WOW players are soft and whiny. EVE players are hardcore ISK hunters.  I don't believe you belong here.

A game like STO should feel as in depth and full of history as the series. That includes economy, social and rank hiarchies, PvE, PvP, ship/station/ and starbase life and hapenings, alience structures, exploration, negotiations, etc...

Absolutely there should be a penalty for wrong or ill-meditated actions. Ships should be able to be destroyed but not avatars.  I believe derektodd has a good idea of things. As for the avatar, if thier ship gets destroyed, perhaps they could get captured by the enemy. If another player wants to pay thier ransom (give them a rezz) then they can get back in the action almost immediately. Otherwise they have to wait for thier faction to negociate the terms of thier release. The later could last ten maybe 15 minutes in which they are safely returned to their nearest safe starbase or planet where they get a nice little com from a supierior officer reminding them that the next occurence of a lost ship could cause them a demotion in rank, status, and pay.

I also believe it to be a mistake to start the game out with only 2 playable races. I think the minimun should be the Klingons, Humans, Cardasians, Vulcans, and the Romulans.

Battle should be intense right from the go. Players should feel like thier making a difference as well as a name for themselves. Battle should have an honor system. If I get into a skirmish with the enemy and chose not to destroy them (as is known to happen), that race/faction remembers and the player is awarded honor points that can accumulate where players of opposite factions can see as well as NPC may be less inclined to destroy your ship in the future.

Starbases should be full of culture and life, gambling, laughters, families, mercenaries, etc... I believe there should be a seperate faction away from military. Perhaps after several years of being in Starfleet, I decide the merchant or mercenary life is for me, or pirate the galaxy, or just settle down on earth as a merchant or clothier. I can resign from Starfleet and join the local civilian life or rogue faction and take my reputation with me. If I decide later to return to active duty I can re-enter at half status I left with.

I do not think all races should have cloaking capabilities. I think each race and faction should have thier own strengths and weakness'. If I can cloak and so can you. There could be a whole sector with 200 ships cloaked and hourse going by where everyone is waiting for someone else to uncloak. If I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to eat humble pie. Klingons and Romulans should be able to cloak, and the opposite factions should have the ability to better detect cloaked ships the better thier skill gets.

Economy should be player based, hence the civilian faction so to speak. Players should be able to buy the basics from NPCs, though the higher quality things should be able to be bought from player merchants or earned through thier goverment faction.

In the end though, I want my heart to be beating out of my chest because I miscalculated a situation and now my ship is in grave danger of being destroyed as I'm running for my faction's line at impulse power only because my warpcore was destroyed by the remaining two Cardasin ships that  fooled me into thinking they just wanted to "talk", but decided they would rather end my career in Starfleet and piece out my ship to the highest Ferengi bider....Just me though.

[quote]Originally posted by Mithios

I'm probably going to get a lot of flak over this, but I feel it needs to be said. WOW and EVE players shouldn't even bother with this game.  WOW players are soft and whiny. EVE players are hardcore ISK hunters.  I don't believe you belong here.[/quote]

I don't think we should be encouraging anyone NOT to try out the game. I will admit that it's probably going to be a little more intense than what WOW fans are used to(if they've never played anything besides WOW or its clones) and the ones that want instant gratification will not like it. You can browse the official forums and see some of the gripes to the mere SUGGESTION that the game have ship loss and item decay.EVE players will probably enjoy the space aspects as well as being able to be more than just a ship.

[quote]A game like STO should feel as in depth and full of history as the series. That includes economy, social and rank hiarchies, PvE, PvP, ship/station/ and starbase life and hapenings, alience structures, exploration, negotiations, etc...[/quote]

Right on

[quote]Absolutely there should be a penalty for wrong or ill-meditated actions. Ships should be able to be destroyed but not avatars.  I believe derektodd has a good idea of things. As for the avatar, if thier ship gets destroyed, perhaps they could get captured by the enemy. If another player wants to pay thier ransom (give them a rezz) then they can get back in the action almost immediately. Otherwise they have to wait for thier faction to negociate the terms of thier release. The later could last ten maybe 15 minutes in which they are safely returned to their nearest safe starbase or planet where they get a nice little com from a supierior officer reminding them that the next occurence of a lost ship could cause them a demotion in rank, status, and pay.[/quote]

I think it will be something more along the lines of your ship being damaged and it will take time to repair it. As long as the player can't just jump right back in the action I'm happy.

[quote]I also believe it to be a mistake to start the game out with only 2 playable races. I think the minimun should be the Klingons, Humans, Cardasians, Vulcans, and the Romulans.[/quote]

The Vulcans and humans are part of the federation along telerites,andorians and some others. The Klingons are the klingons though I thought I read somwhere that somehow the Gorn were part of the Empire as well.I do agree that Romulans should be playable as well as Ferengi.

[quote]Battle should be intense right from the go. Players should feel like thier making a difference as well as a name for themselves. Battle should have an honor system. If I get into a skirmish with the enemy and chose not to destroy them (as is known to happen), that race/faction remembers and the player is awarded honor points that can accumulate where players of opposite factions can see as well as NPC may be less inclined to destroy your ship in the future.

Starbases should be full of culture and life, gambling, laughters, families, mercenaries, etc... I believe there should be a seperate faction away from military. Perhaps after several years of being in Starfleet, I decide the merchant or mercenary life is for me, or pirate the galaxy, or just settle down on earth as a merchant or clothier. I can resign from Starfleet and join the local civilian life or rogue faction and take my reputation with me. If I decide later to return to active duty I can re-enter at half status I left with.

I do not think all races should have cloaking capabilities. I think each race and faction should have thier own strengths and weakness'. If I can cloak and so can you. There could be a whole sector with 200 ships cloaked and hourse going by where everyone is waiting for someone else to uncloak. If I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to eat humble pie. Klingons and Romulans should be able to cloak, and the opposite factions should have the ability to better detect cloaked ships the better thier skill gets.

Economy should be player based, hence the civilian faction so to speak. Players should be able to buy the basics from NPCs, though the higher quality things should be able to be bought from player merchants or earned through thier goverment faction.

In the end though, I want my heart to be beating out of my chest because I miscalculated a situation and now my ship is in grave danger of being destroyed as I'm running for my faction's line at impulse power only because my warpcore was destroyed by the remaining two Cardasin ships that  fooled me into thinking they just wanted to "talk", but decided they would rather end my career in Starfleet and piece out my ship to the highest Ferengi bider....Just me though.[/quote]

Agreed on most counts. I want that feeling of uneasiness when I venture into unkown space.

Severe death penalty in Star Trek Online should be an absolute, but it's more than likely not going to happen.

I can't say what gamers do or do not want in PvP/PvE combat because it's a matter of choice and it's always been a debatable topic but going with Cryptic's online games from the start to present i would say is a pretty good indication that death in Star Trek Online will be rather tame.

It's my assumption that you will lose your ship but will have the option to escape by means of an escape pod or shuttlecraft, kinda like eve, and honestaly the only way somebody gets podded in eve is if they're severly outnumbered or they're slow on the draw.

Even if you do get podded the penalty isn't very severe unless said character is sporting expensive implants, and uusually by this time the player can handle themselves pretty well...mostly.

There are questions abount about how it's going to be in Star Trek, what about the Borg for example or Species 8472? there should be more here than a simple death....in my opinion once your are asslimated you should be able to, for lack of a better word, work for said enemies...in fact it should be the only way.

The entire problem as I see it over the death penalty issue is that a bunch of people are doing a couple of different things.

1. They believe a death penalty needs to be overly harsh.

2. The most logical (ya I know, but it is Star Trek) form of DP should be ship loss, but they can't wrap their heads around ship loss not needing to be overly harsh.

My position is that ship loss need not be overly harsh. That it's a great way to keep the player driven economy churning, and I don't believe most people will be satisfied with anything but seeing the enemy ship destroyed.

As for the rest of what I've read in the thread. You people telling others not to come play the game at release? You're the worst type of STO fans there is in my opinion.

I think there should be a damage level that causes a ship to explode. Maybe that can be hard to manage..but should be possible. A severely damaged vessel could "limp" or be towed to nearest starbase and repairs made....from an allocated fund that grows with advancement....the real question is whether there will be stiff penalties for a Starfleet Officer that violates The Prime Directive....but since they did it all the time in the series..I guess it doesn't matter.