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1/19/09 1:14:04 PM#41
Originally posted by ianicus
Heres the issue with your idea, your situation would pretty much mean that players could access all the content of the game right away. So...once completed...whats keeping them in the game. Community can only go so far to keeping you in a game. Level grinds are there to keep people subscribed and paying, MMO's are business's not charities unfortunately.
If content of a game is ONLY based on lvls then you would be right. But... content is not just the things you can explore you know... Sadly games like WOW have put that thought into all mmo gamers... Secondly - Reputation is the key.. NOT lvls... You have to build up reputation to get new quests.. go to new places and get new items and spells. And you know what - this makes OLD content reusable. You create new quests on "old" NPCs and simply increase the reputation lvl to go to new dungeons or new areas to do these quests. Why on earth do ppl think that "content" in MMOS is something you do in 1 week every 2 years like in WOW expansions? And then do daily quests for next 2 years... Yes... ppl pay sub for that... |
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1/19/09 1:28:33 PM#42
Originally posted by Frobner
Heres the issue with your idea, your situation would pretty much mean that players could access all the content of the game right away. So...once completed...whats keeping them in the game. Community can only go so far to keeping you in a game. Level grinds are there to keep people subscribed and paying, MMO's are business's not charities unfortunately.
If content of a game is ONLY based on lvls then you would be right. But... content is not just the things you can explore you know... Sadly games like WOW have put that thought into all mmo gamers... Secondly - Reputation is the key.. NOT lvls... You have to build up reputation to get new quests.. go to new places and get new items and spells. And you know what - this makes OLD content reusable. You create new quests on "old" NPCs and simply increase the reputation lvl to go to new dungeons or new areas to do these quests. Why on earth do ppl think that "content" in MMOS is something you do in 1 week every 2 years like in WOW expansions? And then do daily quests for next 2 years... Yes... ppl pay sub for that...
Very good point. That's why I'd love to see an MMO with "zero progression" or "lateral progression". Find some thing other than levels to use as a content gate. This way, all characters are within a similar power range, but not all have access to the same content. You'd have to think that at some point, some one is going to do some thing like this. When they do, it's going to completely change the way we think about these games. |
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1/19/09 2:04:11 PM#43
FPS have already done it. Take sniper rifle, shoot head...opponent DEAD!! It doesn't matter how long you've been playing or the other guy. The ONLY difference is actually hitting said player in the head. You know what? Most players don't play one FPS hours every night for month at a time. To be honest, its quite draining to do so. Once MMOs play like FPSs or a brawler like Virtua Fighter, where all numbers mean very little, you've just gotten what you wanted. However, enjoy getting your a$$ handed to you by every 14 yr oild, because THEY're going to be better than you no matter how much you play. Also,throw REAL progression out the window. Once you remove levels, you'll reach your max ability quite quickly. Probably a few weeks. After that, your personal ability can only take you so far. You'll need levels to take you farther...but you don't want that do you? MMOs, skills and level progression is the great equalizer. Anyone can compete for the most part. Of course personal skill, ability and knowledge play a part, but the numbers insure general balance. |
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1/19/09 2:47:31 PM#44
Originally posted by Josher
Good post, I agree.
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1/19/09 3:31:05 PM#45
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Good post, I agree. There is a difference between having no levels the making a game purely player based skills. I play RPGs because I can't stand FPSs(Been there done that got the T-shirt in RL), I like letting my characters skills and stats decide what he can do. But I don't like being arbitrarily told Sorry this area isn't for you because you don't have XX number beside your name... EVe has shown that you can create a game where there is no arbitrary lvl restrictions that you can accomplish everything in a short time period, and you can play with anyone regardless of how old they are. Character abilities based on skills is the great equilizer in games... Levels are the great de-equilizer because it just forces everyone to be at max level or be left behind. Skill based games have to watch out and make sure that like eve there is lots of breadth but not much Depth in the skill chart other wise you still have levels just not called as such |
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1/19/09 3:39:05 PM#46
To Josher and Imhoo. Skills and abilites dont have to be based on lvls tho. Now... Im talking in terms of PVE atm but ppl talking about MMOs as PVP and relying on lvls is just plain wrong.... IF ppl want to pvp it should be based on Equal abilites - ALWAYS. Not based on if your 14 year old or if you can play 5 hours per day to gain 10 more lvls to kill ppl that are lower lvls. LVLS and PVP are the LAST thing that should go together. Go play FPS shooter if you want to fight on skills. Until then hiding behind lvls and talking about 14 year old beeting you if not is kinda pathetic. WOW has done the worst thing possible that could happen to MMOs. It has created a gaming enviroment that is more about focusing on what others are doing than what your actually doing yourself. IMO MMOs should always be based on character progression - YOUR character progression... NOT other ppls character progression. BALANCE is a big word in MMOs... Thing is ... there is no perfect balance so why try to create it ? The job of the Devs should NOT be about getting ppl to lvl 80 and THEN create balance like is happening in WOW. Then the real journey... through many 5 mans content that some ppl will ONLY be playing is not balanced anyway ... I think MMOs need to turn away from the WOW thinking of MMOs. And PVP in MMOS should stay even further away. Imagine this MMO world for a sec.... 7 Kindoms. "Good to evil" based on whatever YOU think is good and evil. You start out as blank book. No predefined "hunter" or "warrior". You create that on your own journey. Tanking? Spanking? Healing? Buffing? Or all of this ? (for example you get the abilty to wear cloth and then "buy" (doing quest) the ability to wear mail when you could have bought the ability to do some magic dmg in cloth). And so on. Hard to balance ? Hmmm really ? balance what ? PPL playing PVE ? Its the Journey that matters. NOT the end product. The job of the devs is to create the journey - NOT the balance at the end of it. But why are Devs not doing it this way ? The simple answer is extra money.... It makes more money to be able to advertise a "Expansion" that gives this and this and this in 10 days than to gratually add it into a Supscribtion game... 7 Kindoms - you choose your path. You choose if you want to serve one (maybe becoming enemy to another) or to become a hired hand staying more neutral and grabing opertunities when possible. This is your choise. Another example. Think of LOTRO. Those characters were not all same "lvl"... But they all took on a certain task using their strengths on diffrent part of the journey. NOw... Not all journeys in MMOs need to be about saving the world... But they can still feel dam important. And like one of the hobbits said "Who would have belived that we - peacefull Hobbits would be ending up in an advenure like this one... Think about that for a beginner coming into a mmo game with real life friends and going on an adventure into a dungeon or to slay a Dragon. Think about that person 1 year later when he is bored to death ingame and desides to take another beginner on an adventure.. and actually gain something from it - cause yes... this way you actually COULD create content where long term players and beginners can go on a journey (the character that is carrying certain item needs to be "pure" but needs alot of protection). And BOTH could benefit from it. They would not HAVE to do it... Its just one more option you would have. LVLS are one way of thinking RPG. .... Oh wait... LVLs have actually NOTHING to do with RPG... When you start to think about it. RPG should be about something totally diffrent ... Totally. But again - this is my opinion ofc =) |
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1/19/09 4:08:32 PM#47
Originally posted by Nicoli There is a difference between having no levels the making a game purely player based skills. I play RPGs because I can't stand FPSs(Been there done that got the T-shirt in RL), I like letting my characters skills and stats decide what he can do. But I don't like being arbitrarily told Sorry this area isn't for you because you don't have XX number beside your name... EVe has shown that you can create a game where there is no arbitrary lvl restrictions that you can accomplish everything in a short time period, and you can play with anyone regardless of how old they are. Character abilities based on skills is the great equilizer in games... Levels are the great de-equilizer because it just forces everyone to be at max level or be left behind. Skill based games have to watch out and make sure that like eve there is lots of breadth but not much Depth in the skill chart other wise you still have levels just not called as such
How do you take the system of EVE and turn that into a medieval game with Elves and Knights in armor, with bows and arrows and lightning spells? Especially the territory control. In EVE it's all about gear, which is spaceships. Would a fantasy game done like EVE be all about Armor?
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1/19/09 4:26:06 PM#48
Originally posted by Ihmotepp There is a difference between having no levels the making a game purely player based skills. I play RPGs because I can't stand FPSs(Been there done that got the T-shirt in RL), I like letting my characters skills and stats decide what he can do. But I don't like being arbitrarily told Sorry this area isn't for you because you don't have XX number beside your name... EVe has shown that you can create a game where there is no arbitrary lvl restrictions that you can accomplish everything in a short time period, and you can play with anyone regardless of how old they are. Character abilities based on skills is the great equilizer in games... Levels are the great de-equilizer because it just forces everyone to be at max level or be left behind. Skill based games have to watch out and make sure that like eve there is lots of breadth but not much Depth in the skill chart other wise you still have levels just not called as such
How do you take the system of EVE and turn that into a medieval game with Elves and Knights in armor, with bows and arrows and lightning spells? Especially the territory control. In EVE it's all about gear, which is spaceships. Would a fantasy game done like EVE be all about Armor?
EVE is not all about ships only ... You can train your abilites to be able to use things that improve your ship (and so on) And it has nothing to do with how much you actually play. You can come online once a week and still progress your character. Not that Im suggesting this in Fantasy based game. But the options are endless. LVLs are based on Experience you gain. Why does that mean that when you hit X amount of exp that you will gain something ? Why not base it on Reputation? Or something totally diffrent. EVE has also pretty powerfull PVE questing system IF ppl are intrested in trying it. That system is build more up around my thinking of progression rather than to think "hooo IM lvl 10 and can now do this !!!!" ATM the fantasy MMOs iare just one big WOW world and noone seems to be thinking about how to take the genre forward. These things will not happen in next few months but eventually MMOs will be going more in this direction... When ppl realise that WOW clones is just anohter WOW lvl progress... |
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1/19/09 5:07:55 PM#49
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Well you have different skills for different weapons, shots, armor... Your character can eventually learn them all and use them but to do such you need to have equiped the right equipment... Cant use that frost spell with out a wand, and while you can wear heavy armor its going to cause trouble with you casting all the time. Territory contol is the easiest thing to convert... You have spots where keeps have been built before. Your group needs to go out claim the area and start getting resources to rebuild the keep. Of course things like Iron bronze are very plentiful all around the world including in the areas where the NPC realms are(the safer area). But if you want your miners to gather the stuff to make more rare metal swords and items you need to mine the resources out where the old ruin keeps are. Once your group rebuilds the keep you can start to build a city around it(hopefully something whith the customizability like Stronghold) where you can even begin to get NPC labors to do some of the work but you must make sure you can feed them and pay them. Then the entire game resolves around capturing these keeps. Sure you still have NPC to kill and you damn better make sure you watch out for your crafters because everything when you dies drops in either a Destroyed or damaged state so they are the only ones that can keep you constantly fitted out. Sure that isn't fluffed out but its not that hard to do. |
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Forcan
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 1/08/07
Nov. 15th 2005 |
1/19/09 5:22:17 PM#50
Is the idea of Levels broken? Not necessary, but the way it is used in MMO right now is.
Think of it this way: You want to have personal character progression, that's fine. But it should not be the factor that separate players. Many time, in most MMO, I've seen friends that joined on separate time will never play together due to level differences. Levels as personal character progression is good, but it is bad for character power indicator (especially when level is a major factor in both PvE and PvP). Some of the ways to make sure you keep the personal progression in while leaving the character power indicator out is to make it voluntary, and design in a way that you gain titles and rewards instead of power over the levels.
What I mean is this: you can use level as character ranks. Let's say there is a game designed with 10 major rank, with 3 minor ranks in between each major one (except the first one, which is amateur/novice/beginner). That's still 27 ranks caps. Then you set up tests for PvE and PvP, and let the players to gain ranks by completing the tests. But this offers titles, rewards, reputation instead of it being a power indicator. This will first, create a system that will allow individuals to improve their characters with personal progression. Then for those who doesn't care for the rank, they are not "weaker" than those who are higher rank (normally), but just didn't do the tests.
This system, along with the skill-tree type system where each box will contain different power skills (no rank X skills, but just skills that you earned in whatever trees you choose), and then you can also incorporate the system where the players controls the stats (that is, as you gain skills, you also gain points to put into stats...) I would also suggest no stats modifier on weapons/armors, but just effects, and on higher rank weapons/armors, unique skills. This would better balance the playing field.
That's the design I'm working on, and I think this would be a better system than level 1 ~ level x with buying skills. Current MMO: Eden Eternal, Divina (TW Ver.), World of Tanks. Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P) |
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1/19/09 7:05:58 PM#51
Look at it this way: RPG is on one end of the spectrum, FPS is on the other. It's not like theres no gray area between the two. You could remove leveling or progression and still be far away from FPS. Hell, you could get rid of progression and still have a much more in depth character creation/customization system than most MMOs have right now. The only real purpose of levels in MMOs is to make up for a lack of content or features and to keep the players grinding away and paying their subs. Should all MMORPGs be level-free? No. But, I have no doubt that an MMO with out progression could succeed, it would just be a different game. |
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1/20/09 9:10:12 AM#52
Originally posted by Tatum
Progression does not have to be in the form of lvls. |
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1/20/09 10:18:23 AM#53
Originally posted by Frobner
Progression does not have to be in the form of lvls.
That's the point I was trying to make...in a rambling, slightly incoherant sort of way. When I say "progression" I'm talking about progression of stats. I understand what you're saying about other forms of progression and I agree. There are probably plenty of examples out there of alternate forms of progression, but I doubt most MMO players would even consider that those examples might actually work in an MMORPG. |
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1/20/09 10:23:17 AM#54
Originally posted by Frobner Progression does not have to be in the form of lvls.
I agree totally, but I am sure that people will still complain no matter what you tried to replace them with. In MMOs, 'Level' is just an abstract scale for describing the capabilities of given objects & entities. Unless everyone permanently plays on equal terms with no room for improvement apart from their own personal skill then there will always be something that will smell strongly of 'Levels'. I think the main reason 'Levels' get such a bad press is that they are often intrinsically tied to 'Classes'. In a system where there was a limit to how much you could learn, but few restrictions on how you chose to apply yourself, things would be much more interesting. In theory your capabilities in a given field might still be expressable as levels, but the combinations could provide so much more variety. I haven't played Pen & Paper RPGs much since I left University many years ago, but one of the things I miss the most is being able to find my own solutions to problems rather than being forced to follow set paths. Choosing unconventional ability & equipment combinations was fun. I realise that MMOs will probably never reach the complexity of Pen & Paper RPGs, but being able to more creatively design your own career & abilities would be a step in the right direction. If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"? |
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DuraheLL
 Novice Member
Joined: 12/14/05
** Ooh theeres aaa monkey in my pocket and hes stealing all my change ** |
1/20/09 11:48:31 AM#55
As of today, I'd say if someone makes a MMORPG with levels, they are living in the past! A game that cant survive without levels is lame and poorly designed. Just like a ladder its "take step 1, then 2, then 3"... instead of giving you a bunch of different paths. Levels only function as a guiding hand to slowly unlock the game for you, giving you new attacks and challenges as you go. It also makes it VERY EASY for developers to make the game. Since with levels it will be super easy to define what a player really can and cannot do, to really set the boundries right off the bat.
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1/20/09 11:52:51 AM#56
Levels aren't a broken concept until people start rejecting them en mass, which would force the Blizzards of the world to come up with a new mechanic. The reailty is that most people are easily entertained, and they don't want to have to think too hard about their games and the effort required to play them. While level grinding might be the online equivalent of reality television in terms of originality and substance, it sells, and is therefore not broken in the only sense that matters: the financial one. |
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1/20/09 12:05:42 PM#57
Originally posted by veritas_X
Well, that's pretty dismissive but whatever. I might be interesting to note that people also look for the easy way out in other things as well. I wonder how many people in this thread, when evaluated would yield surprising results of pedestrian tastes in books, movies, TV shows, Music, Beer, etc. In any case, levels work and they allow a player to track their performance in a measurable way. The whole problem with stats is that it is sometimes hard to know what is being done if I make one thing "1 point better". And besides, aren't stats just a different type of leveling? Are people trying to say that someone with fire knowledge of 50 as opposed to fire knowledge of 200 would just as readily be added to a group where mastery in that stat was important to the task at hand? Are we saying that when people shout for groups there won't be a "looking for dps, must have strength of 500 and constitution of 800" or whatever stats define a good warrior? More than likely what the real issue is, is the implementation of the game world in relation to levels. The idea that low level content is separated out from high level content, sometimes by significant area. You end up getting new players logging into vacant or semi-vacant new player areas. Though I can see someone making the argument that that is done to spread the population out so as to not stress the servers. In any case, people can handle stats but they have to have meaning. I recently dowloaded Asheron's call just to check it out. When making my character I noticed that I had all sorts of stats. Ok, neat let's see... However, I had no idea if I was adding to a needed stat or gimping myself. I wanted to make a hybrid class but didn't really know how much of one thing would be needed to make one area effective as opposed to just missing out on being useful. So sure, devs can make stat games but they have to make sense. Adding a number to another number with a title means nothing unless we can have some sort of indicator as to how much that addtiion will add or unless we can easily have a trial and error. And in the end, I highly suspect you will still have people looking for players who have added to certain stats or max/min'ed their characters.
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1/20/09 2:55:48 PM#58
Yes levels are a broken concept. But the problem is without levels and classes how can we define each other? A skill system worked great in UO but UO is completely different design concept the current group design based mmo, WoW included. WoW may be very solo friendly but it is designed around the group concept. What would lfg channel look like, "Looking for tank must have minimum 90 weapon skill, 90 tatics, 90 anantomy, 90 healing, 90 resist and 90 parry....". How can you have a strickly skill based system and be able to identify each other so groups can form up? I don't have the answer. I would love if someone could come up with one tho. |
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1/20/09 3:32:45 PM#59
Originally posted by Venger The problem is that 'skills' as you refer to are really just distributed levels. A level is just a milestone marker. In a pure level system the milestones are distributed in a linear fashion. In a skill based system the milestones are spread out in a more lateral fashion but their combinations still indicate a definate level. In your example that 90/90/90/90/90/... tank could be refered to as an Level 2 tank since he is able to tank the second major boss of the game. While a 40/40/40/30 tank would be a level 1 tank for a similar reason. It's just a question of how you want to define your milestones. |
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1/20/09 4:42:24 PM#60
Originally posted by Venger
First - LFG is not a must in MMOs. It is something that has been created BECAUSE of the lvling prosess. How about you log on and join 4-5 friends that you want to play with (or just 3 - 4 random ppl you meet at an NPC). The NPC then gives a quest out FOR THAT particular group. And all will benefit from it. In form of reputation, in form of experience (higher lvls getting more than lower lvls). You are stuck in the thinking that oh.. Im lvl 80 and I have to find other lvl 80s to play with. Ever thought of a quest system where "lvl 1-10" is needed to talk to certain person to actually acomplish the quest ? And others will have to protect that lvl 1-10 person to get there. There are endless possibilites to create a PVE content. Since Massive in todays world stands more for 2v2 playing in 100 yard Arena rather than to go out look for real adventures - it might be abit hard for ppl to actually grasp this kinda gameplay. But "massive" sadly is a concept that most consider to be just about whos first to lvl 80 to get a title... Where the FIRST part is more important than the actual adventure. Sorry - but a person that is "first" getting to certain lvls or first getting 100 mounts or whatever is probably the biggest RL looser imaginable. Still MMO developers are creating this content making the END content as the only thing that matters. That is calling for MORE loosers to spend MORE of their crappy life instead of doing something meaningfull. MMos should be builid around NORMAL PPL that go to work, go to school and Live NORMAL life. It should be around ppl that deside to sit down infront of the computer instead of TV and say... "Hmm tonight I want to take part in an adventure. Lets see where I end up. " Getting to lvl XXX to do this and that and 1000 other things is not what most NORMAL ppl think about. Its incredable to see how few years of WOW playing closes down EVERY single thoughprocess of what is possible for soo many ppl. One person asked - How are you gonna prevent ppl from doing all the content? ... Seriously.... Lets take WOW WOTLK for example. Do you see a person lvl 70 go straight into a lvl 80 area ? Nope - Why ? Because he knows the content is to hard ? Or because the quests he is doing are POINTING him to certain direction. You dont need lvls to do that. Red, yellow and green colours already determine if mobs are in your killing range. I know this is veryhard for many ppl to grasp. Experience that ppl are given for doing this and that ingame is what most ppl think of as the only way of doing things in MMOs now. There are games out there that use diffrent systems and are doing good job of it. And maybe... Just MAYBE this will eventually lead to ppl understanding that there is more to MMO than just go and KILL KILL KILL to gain exp to then get to Next lvl to then get an item that will make it easier to go KILL KILL KILL more to get abit mroe exp to get to the same lvl as this guy that is holding this item that I need to go KILL KILL KILL like 1000 monsters of this kind and 1000 monsters of that kind to be able to get to next lvl.... Maybe one day we will see something diffrent.... But it wont happen any time soon... Sadly.. |
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