I just had a thought.

It seems that many (most?) people associate MMORPGs with what you do at the level cap.  Everything you do before the level cap is irrelevent and if it takes too long it gets the dreaded 'grind' label.

In single-player RPGs nobody really cares about levels so long as you don't have to mindlessly kill stuff before you can progress to the next area (or become so overpowered just playing the game that it loses all challenge).  The content is what it is important, the level is just a number that you use to compare yourself to the mobs.

So.. what is the reason for the disconnect between single player and MMO styles?  I can think of a few...

• MMOs are competitive.  By definition, you can't be uber if you're not at the level cap.
• MMOs are multiplayer.  Since most people are at the level cap, you need to be at the level cap too to play with them.
• Old content in a level-based game tends to fall by the wayside and be forgotten (and thus completing it scores you no uberness points, see above)

I think the first point counts for a lot since several games do have systems that allow you play with friends that are at vastly different levels than you (EQ2s mentoring system and CoH/CoV's sidekicking).

Also, consider the fact that some MMOs have things like sub-level-cap epic questlines, in-depth crafting (also at all levels), player housing, controllable territory (that means something to the people that hold it), freeform character advancement, etc.  Granted, the good ones are successful in their own right but still dwarfed by World of Warcraft which has none of these things.  Because they're fluff and don't really matter to most people.

So, if MMOs, at their most basic level, are nothing more than collecting lots of shineys and comparing epeens for most people, why have levels at all?  Or at least, far fewer levels (maybe 10) that serve as a tutorial more than anything else with the majority of the gameworld being max-level content.  It just seems like a waste to have such huge, open worlds that nobody plays in.

Originally posted by x_rast_x

I just had a thought.

It seems that many (most?) people associate MMORPGs with what you do at the level cap.  Everything you do before the level cap is irrelevent and if it takes too long it gets the dreaded 'grind' label.

In single-player RPGs nobody really cares about levels so long as you don't have to mindlessly kill stuff before you can progress to the next area (or become so overpowered just playing the game that it loses all challenge).  The content is what it is important, the level is just a number that you use to compare yourself to the mobs.

So.. what is the reason for the disconnect between single player and MMO styles?  I can think of a few...

• MMOs are competitive.  By definition, you can't be uber if you're not at the level cap.
• MMOs are multiplayer.  Since most people are at the level cap, you need to be at the level cap too to play with them.
• Old content in a level-based game tends to fall by the wayside and be forgotten (and thus completing it scores you no uberness points, see above)

I think the first point counts for a lot since several games do have systems that allow you play with friends that are at vastly different levels than you (EQ2s mentoring system and CoH/CoV's sidekicking).

Also, consider the fact that some MMOs have things like sub-level-cap epic questlines, in-depth crafting (also at all levels), player housing, controllable territory (that means something to the people that hold it), freeform character advancement, etc.  Granted, the good ones are successful in their own right but still dwarfed by World of Warcraft which has none of these things.  Because they're fluff and don't really matter to most people.

So, if MMOs, at their most basic level, are nothing more than collecting lots of shineys and comparing epeens for most people, why have levels at all?  Or at least, far fewer levels (maybe 10) that serve as a tutorial more than anything else with the majority of the gameworld being max-level content.  It just seems like a waste to have such huge, open worlds that nobody plays in.

Lvls allways have been a Stupid Idea for MMO's. It prevents you from exploring a lot of areas and if Endgame is where the game starts WTH did i play the last 9000 lvls?
 

Well, my all-time favorite three MMOs are in no particular order Ultima Online, Asheron's Call and SWG(pre NGE). Those three games either had no levels (UO, SWG) or their levels weren't really the core of the progression system (AC). So, for me, the level approach is "broken" with regard to MMOs. Seeing projects like Mortal Online, Earthrise, Fallen Earth and Darkfall being worked on gives me hope that more comapnies will attempt to make non-level based MMOs and that there'll be a few quality ones that I can enjoy as I did with the 3 above.

Originally posted by x_rast_x

Are levels a broken concept?

Yes

Often people don't think that everything not at the level cap doesn't count for anything, but it's just some vocal idiots who do.

Guild Wars does more or less what you propose:  the level cap is 20, and you can get there pretty quickly.  Most of the content assumes that you're level 20. 

I don't really like the idea of making it a MUST to reach the level cap in most MMORPG's today. I hate that the game really doesn't truly start until you reach that level cap. Before hitting the level cap was so important people used to associate your level with how much experience you had playing the game or whatever. And people would automatically assume that if you're a really high level you know something about how to play this game. (Whether it was true or not) 

 I think most MMO titles today, that have the MUST hit the level cap mentality, are simply shooting for the idea that they want you to learn how to play the game, and play your class well, and have some idea of how your class works with others before the game "really" begins. I think this was their original intent. But this idea does not hold water due to the fact that players break the rules and powerlevel, bot, or simply buy a level capped character already. It was an interesting thought for MMO's to take but now that it has been proven to be not as effective as it should have been; they should simply go back to how levels effected used to play a part in MMO's. Hitting the level cap is more of a hastle now then anything else. It almost takes the whole meaning of levels out of play, if everyone is simply trying to hit the level cap, simply so they can "really start to play the game".

However, I would prefer if MMO's simply went back to the mentality of the way levels used to mean. I don't quite like the idea of taking out the whole level system entirally. However, if you're just leveling simply to hit the level cap, then I agree that the whole level system as a whole should be removed. Because at this point it's not referred to as levels anymore... it's simply referred to as 'level'. You either hit the level cap or you didn't. And in the end you're not really any better off, level wise.

  Hmmm...

  I vote yes...AND no.

  The "level" system was basically created and perfect by D&D.  Now, before we go off on a tangent worrying about what the level system is today...its important to note what it meant THEN.  To D&D, levels were just an identifier for how far the character had progressed as a whole...a way to define, numerically, his life and experience such that you could compare him to the world around him.  They were NOT a virtual cock-block on the story or experiences you could face.  A level one player could, through circumstance and strategy, still overcome even a level 20 encounter.  The difference is that a level 20 character would be far better equipped (skill wise, power wise, knowledge wise) to deal with it and escape unscathed.

  In that system, the levels gained were a PART of the story...they were critical to the understanding of what you were and how that person related to everything around him.  Now, we use levels as a direct way to control the rollercoaster that these games have become.  There is no story behind them, or if there is, it is simply a means to the end of getting to the part of that story that people WANT to enjoy.  In D&D, nothing prevented a level 1 character from confronting a dragon...or even being able to find a way to overcome it.  All it meant was that you had to approach the situation differently than someone much higher level.

  So, yes, our current use of the level system IS broken and dead.  Technology, I think, isn't ready to make a game that can fully utilize what that system was meant to do.  However, the actual function of a level system is fairly perfect....and could still be used if it were ever fleshed out in the manner its creators had imagined.

No levels do work,

however the way of progressing through them does not.

level are not that insignificant. games should not be directed only at level grinding but other aspects of the game as well, like crafting and guild options much like what we see in atlantica online.

Obsession with extreme uberness is the core of MMO's. What else is there really? Anyone that plays MMO's is:

A ) Trying to be the most ridiculously powerful character on their server / game / whatever.

B ) Trying to play with other people while still playing an RPG. Unfortunately for them they find themselves forced to keep up with option A.

C ) Trying to PvP so they can chop / blast / explode their competition which also falls into A.

So the idea of levels are not going to be extracted from MMOs because they are the core of RPG's. If it was entirely skill based then why are you playing an RPG? Go play halo.

As far as the DnD comment goes, levels were entirely power based. A level 1 character could never defeat a level 20 character unless the level 1 character had 19 levels equivalence of outside influence. Look at the DnD's casting classes. Wizard gets "wish" ffs at level 18. Clerics get power word: death, which is nothing like the WoW spells for you wow junkies out there. It does what it says, it kills you.How is a level 1 spell even going to compare on any level (ahah get it?) with wish?

Levels will never EVER be removed from MMOs or RPGs. Darkfall still has a level system. Skills have levels, there are still going to be the grinders grinding their skill levels higher. Anyone remember leaving your xbox on with morrowind in it with something pinning the joystick down into a corner to max our your running stat and endurance. I expect no less from darkfall subs.

Uberness and levels are inherent in RPG's. Without them you'd have a FPS or third person shooter. except maybe you wouldn't be shooting, rather, hacking.

Originally posted by Crosius

Obsession with extreme uberness is the core of MMO's. What else is there really?

There are games where you get as strong as you'll ever be pretty quickly.  And then you can just have fun playing the game.  Imagine that.

See, for example, Guild Wars and Puzzle Pirates.

Originally posted by Crosius

Obsession with extreme uberness is the core of MMO's. What else is there really? Anyone that plays MMO's is:

A ) Trying to be the most ridiculously powerful character on their server / game / whatever.

B ) Trying to play with other people while still playing an RPG. Unfortunately for them they find themselves forced to keep up with option A.

C ) Trying to PvP so they can chop / blast / explode their competition which also falls into A.

So the idea of levels are not going to be extracted from MMOs because they are the core of RPG's. If it was entirely skill based then why are you playing an RPG? Go play halo.

As far as the DnD comment goes, levels were entirely power based. A level 1 character could never defeat a level 20 character unless the level 1 character had 19 levels equivalence of outside influence. Look at the DnD's casting classes. Wizard gets "wish" ffs at level 18. Clerics get power word: death, which is nothing like the WoW spells for you wow junkies out there. It does what it says, it kills you.How is a level 1 spell even going to compare on any level (ahah get it?) with wish?

Levels will never EVER be removed from MMOs or RPGs. Darkfall still has a level system. Skills have levels, there are still going to be the grinders grinding their skill levels higher. Anyone remember leaving your xbox on with morrowind in it with something pinning the joystick down into a corner to max our your running stat and endurance. I expect no less from darkfall subs.

 

Uberness and levels are inherent in RPG's. Without them you'd have a FPS or third person shooter. except maybe you wouldn't be shooting, rather, hacking.

The difference is that DnD was more than just the base stats, which is unfortunately what MMORPGs operate on. As someone else stated, a level 1 could take out a level 20 through ingenuity, or just plain luck. Levels were an aspect of the game, but the game wasn't entirely dependent on levels. The big difference was an interactive Dungeon Master that could allow these things to happen. Levels in an MMORPG cannot and will not ever work the same way.

Levels, i.e. staged character advancement, is one of the foundations of most successful RPGs, whether pen & paper, single player PC, or MMORPG.

Surely levels as a feature can be done in many ways, and what's better is just a mater of opinion. Calling the entire concept "broken" is just silly though. :-)

Yup, levels are a negative aspect of MMO's, but that's mainly due to the mentality of the players.

Pre-level cap content is often viewed by players not as entertainment, (as it should be), but as an obstable to be overcome as quickly as possible and with the minimum of attention/thought required, so we (generalisations ftw!) rush through the levels, barely skimming quest text and, in essence, breaking our own immersion in the stampede towards "max level.

Then we sit around complaining about limited end-game content.

Originally posted by DragonShark 

The difference is that DnD was more than just the base stats, which is unfortunately what MMORPGs operate on. As someone else stated, a level 1 could take out a level 20 through ingenuity, or just plain luck. Levels were an aspect of the game, but the game wasn't entirely dependent on levels. The big difference was an interactive Dungeon Master that could allow these things to happen. Levels in an MMORPG cannot and will not ever work the same way.

This is the reality of why levels are messed up. As a Pen and paper GM I could allow my players to interact with the enviroment far more effectively than any Current MMORPG. If you want to assasinate a high ranking archmage with a Bow shot. I could work with oyu getting into position and getting the shot lined up. And then I could make up a roll to see if you hit and where you hit... Get a good shot and I can ignore the damage roll and just say he goes down with an Arrow in the Eye. That is why levels have a place in Pen and Paper games they can be overridden at will by the GM.

Sadly in MMORPGs we do not have that option so they just act a seperater of players.. Even if I wanted to play with my friends in WoW I would not waste my time since I would have to wait till I lvl cap just to do anything with them. For that reason i think lvls are broken for MMOs, it seperates friends from playing with each other which is the main thing MMOs should be for.

Originally posted by Nicoli

Sadly in MMORPGs we do not have that option so they just act a seperater of players.. Even if I wanted to play with my friends in WoW I would not waste my time since I would have to wait till I lvl cap just to do anything with them. For that reason i think lvls are broken for MMOs, it seperates friends from playing with each other which is the main thing MMOs should be for.

This is a very good point, imo.

One of the things I really liked about EVE was that even if you joined the game six months after your friends; you could still hook up with them and do something mutually beneficial, whereas with games like WoW you're nothing but a hindrance to your high-level friends 'til you catch up .. which can be a long time and very disheartening/dull.

The other thing I liked about it was that you could play a few hours a week and still be as developed as people who played 40+. I just wish some company would make an avatar-based EVE in the fantasy genre, I'd play it like a shot.

Its totally broken. And i agree with all the OP says. Everything is a race to level cap so you can start endgame content. Well IMO there shouldnt be endgame content. It should be open ended. Where players can come together and do whatever they like. Like it was with SWG pre-CU. 20 man groups and huge PvP battles.

To bad there was little content added with SWG. The most popular PvE content was Geno-cave, Corvette and Krayt, Kimogila and Gorax hunts. PvP was awsome tho. If they only had put resoourses on bug smashing and adding content....

I just hope Darkfall succeeds and dont release a broken game. I dont think im gonna try it out at first. But for the sake of MMORPG's future I hope levels will dissapear in the future.

I only reached lvl 39 in EQ after playing for a year. That was the best time I have had playing MMOs.

Originally posted by Nicoli

Originally posted by DragonShark 

The difference is that DnD was more than just the base stats, which is unfortunately what MMORPGs operate on. As someone else stated, a level 1 could take out a level 20 through ingenuity, or just plain luck. Levels were an aspect of the game, but the game wasn't entirely dependent on levels. The big difference was an interactive Dungeon Master that could allow these things to happen. Levels in an MMORPG cannot and will not ever work the same way.

 

This is the reality of why levels are messed up. As a Pen and paper GM I could allow my players to interact with the enviroment far more effectively than any Current MMORPG. If you want to assasinate a high ranking archmage with a Bow shot. I could work with oyu getting into position and getting the shot lined up. And then I could make up a roll to see if you hit and where you hit... Get a good shot and I can ignore the damage roll and just say he goes down with an Arrow in the Eye. That is why levels have a place in Pen and Paper games they can be overridden at will by the GM.

Sadly in MMORPGs we do not have that option so they just act a seperater of players.. Even if I wanted to play with my friends in WoW I would not waste my time since I would have to wait till I lvl cap just to do anything with them. For that reason i think lvls are broken for MMOs, it seperates friends from playing with each other which is the main thing MMOs should be for.

  It goes deeper than that.  The core system for D&D allowed for options against difficult odds.  A kolbold could still land a crit against a level 20 player and deal damage.  A level 1 player could, through diplomacy, tact, strategy, and probable use of precured magical items, still overcome a CR20 challenge.  The very game itself was designed with options in mind.

  MMO gaming is, simply put, not.  Without the wide array (and I mean &*^%ing wide array, I dare most of you to chew through the 15 some-odd possible books worth of base game options) of options...levels no longer serve to relate the player to his surroundings....they serve to limit the player to his surroundings, and above that, limit the surroundings to whatever controlled environment the designer chooses for them.

  When you hear players complaining about "lack of options" THIS is where that problem stems from.  Its not just class options they are talking about (though many still refer to that due to lack of proper game experience) its the very foundation of what enables a player to do ANYTHING.  D&D had a roll table for anything you could imagine.  Hell, they even had a roll table to "create" a random dungeon...complete with cracks in the wall, puddles of feces, and sculptures.  MMO gaming has no options at all to back up their "massive worlds".

  Levels are a good thing, but only when used in the context for which they were created.

Levels are an abstraction of the human need to have something to show for your time. Whether it be boxes in a sandbox, levels in a grind, quests, achievements, pets, T7 sets.... Make a game with nothing to aim for and people won't play it. Examples: ATITD, Roma Victor....