So I re rolled after leaving the game initially on launch month (damn wow and its luring way). Here is a brief summary of why I am kicking myself that I left.

So I enter the beautiful started area of Edhelion. The rousing score and urgency of battle surrounds me. After a few skirmishes with the invading goblins I am informed there is a troll at the gates! WTF!” I think! To myself. So with bow in hand I wait for the beast to break the gates open, expecting a desperate fight. When out of no where Elrond himself shows up and fells the beast. At this point I am thinking “ Oh my God, how great is this”. After that I am treated to a cut scene.

I then find myself in the next refuge of Celondim, anxiously awaiting the next series of quests. 5-6 epic quests later, followed by meaningless wandering (by choice), and exploration of ruins. Any ruined statue/ castle I find I find myself wondering what the history is behind it and what it’s story is. The world feels lived in not just by us players but by some unknown people before hand.

My point is in a nut shell, that any one who tell you that lord of the rings quests are boring is on crack…full stop. I know opinions are never wrong, but this one is. Anyone who is saying that the graphics/world is boring needs to have a frontal lobotomy done and I mean ASAP. I cannot wait to get to the mines, see the Balrog and Balins chamber. What excites me most is the furthering of the story we all know and love. The green fields of Rohan, the defense of helms deep. The Battle at Pellenor and the the culmination of all our efforts at Mordor. For now I am content exploring my own little story.

Sorry for the rant, but I had forgotten what an MMO was capable of doing to your imagination
 

Play it more, and then tell how exciting it is, when all your quests are kill x boars, kill y bears, kill z goblins, etc. Over and over and over again. Every 5 levels there's a whole new set of the same critters you've been fighting over and over again.

Okay, it's not all grinding. There's the ever so original "Hey, why don't you go over to _____ and talk to ______, they need your help".

Don't get me wrong, some parts are actually quite inventive and cinematic. But there's a whole lot of filler in the game as well.  Unfortunately, more of the latter than the good stuff.

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Play it more, and then tell how exciting it is, when all your quests are kill x boars, kill y bears, kill z goblins, etc. Over and over and over again. Every 5 levels there's a whole new set of the same critters you've been fighting over and over again.

Okay, it's not all grinding. There's the ever so original "Hey, why don't you go over to _____ and talk to ______, they need your help".

 

Don't get me wrong, some parts are actually quite inventive and cinematic. But there's a whole lot of filler in the game as well.  Unfortunately, more of the latter than the good stuff.

Well the EPIC quest lines (books) are the best quest series I have ever seen of any MMO.

And LOTRO has lot's of them. 15 books in Volume 1 (SOA) and now 5 books for starters in Volume 2 (MoM). Book 6 coming in the first free content update after MoM.

Ofcourse you got many filler quests. You can only make them that diverse. So it's just inevitable.

At least with quests you get both XP from mobs and from the quest itself.

In the good old MMO's you simply had to grind mobs to level up. Can't get any worse than that.

Cheers

Originally posted by DeadlyByDez

So I re rolled after leaving the game initially on launch month (damn wow and its luring way). Here is a brief summary of why I am kicking myself that I left.

So I enter the beautiful started area of Edhelion. The rousing score and urgency of battle surrounds me. After a few skirmishes with the invading goblins I am informed there is a troll at the gates! WTF!” I think! To myself. So with bow in hand I wait for the beast to break the gates open, expecting a desperate fight. When out of no where Elrond himself shows up and fells the beast. At this point I am thinking “ Oh my God, how great is this”. After that I am treated to a cut scene.

I then find myself in the next refuge of Celondim, anxiously awaiting the next series of quests. 5-6 epic quests later, followed by meaningless wandering (by choice), and exploration of ruins. Any ruined statue/ castle I find I find myself wondering what the history is behind it and what it’s story is. The world feels lived in not just by us players but by some unknown people before hand.

My point is in a nut shell, that any one who tell you that lord of the rings quests are boring is on crack…full stop. I know opinions are never wrong, but this one is. Anyone who is saying that the graphics/world is boring needs to have a frontal lobotomy done and I mean ASAP. I cannot wait to get to the mines, see the Balrog and Balins chamber. What excites me most is the furthering of the story we all know and love. The green fields of Rohan, the defense of helms deep. The Battle at Pellenor and the the culmination of all our efforts at Mordor. For now I am content exploring my own little story.

Sorry for the rant, but I had forgotten what an MMO was capable of doing to your imagination
 

LOTRO is good this way but also bad.

Though some people might say the game is linnear this really isn't the case. The epic quests are linnear of course but I have levelled my character in closed beta, open beta and release in very different ways. And there are quests that I just never did when I was in the level range as I just never came across them.

Where  the game has some failure is that there are areas you can't enter unless you have the appropriate quest line. Now these aren't huge swaths of land, but I have found myself trying to enter a dungeon or cave only to get the message "you do not have the appropriate quest".

However, if you are a player who is not interested in rushing to endgame then LOTRO could be very much for you. Heck, one of my favorite things is to just explore goblin town and fight my way as far as I can.

You have to be very much in the moment for LOTRO, it's the only way it really works.

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Play it more, and then tell how exciting it is, when all your quests are kill x boars, kill y bears, kill z goblins, etc. Over and over and over again. Every 5 levels there's a whole new set of the same critters you've been fighting over and over again.

Okay, it's not all grinding. There's the ever so original "Hey, why don't you go over to _____ and talk to ______, they need your help".

 

Don't get me wrong, some parts are actually quite inventive and cinematic. But there's a whole lot of filler in the game as well.  Unfortunately, more of the latter than the good stuff.

They have been addressing this in the new zones, in fact, there is a quest in Evendom to find boars.

There are no boars in Evendom. 

The devs are aware, and have been adjusting; they also themselves make fun of it, such as the Yule fest quest "More boar".

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Play it more, and then tell how exciting it is, when all your quests are kill x boars, kill y bears, kill z goblins, etc. Over and over and over again. Every 5 levels there's a whole new set of the same critters you've been fighting over and over again.

Okay, it's not all grinding. There's the ever so original "Hey, why don't you go over to _____ and talk to ______, they need your help".

 

Don't get me wrong, some parts are actually quite inventive and cinematic. But there's a whole lot of filler in the game as well.  Unfortunately, more of the latter than the good stuff.

It really depends on how you do the quests, most of the kill x mobs quests are sub quests that take you on a path you are headed to anyways with epic and storyline quests.   So if you going to retrieve a special locket for example, your going to be killing boars, wolves bears etc on the way to pick it up.   If you don't read all your quest dialogues and just kill 10 of x mob and then move on to the next quest, it can get pretty boring in any MMO.

three points -- OMG I'm sick of the bash the LOTRO quest system posts.    Go design a game that doesn't need to include said *filler* quests to level.   You don't NEED to do them -- just go farm mobs to get your xp then if you don't like these.  At least there are goals that progress.    Oh and the stages of mobs -- what did you expect???? It's MIDDLE EARTH.  You're going to kill goblins, orcs, wolves, wargs, etc etc because that's what is in MIDDLE EARTH.   Geesh -- my point being the folks that seem to not enjoy the style of game play just logged in to play an MMO but didn't care about getting immersed in to Middle earth by their own effort.    No MMO is going to baby sit you and hold you by the hand to encourage your immersion -- they are all user interfaces to facilitate your adventuring.

Point 2 -- READ the quests.   Even the filler exp getting quest lines have stories to them if you READ them.  You are sent to kill goblins, orcs whatever for a PURPOSE and you need to READ that PURPOSE to GET the STORY.   Don't just look at the quest objective and go WTF this sucks!    Again but that does take effort on the player's part -- God forbid.

Point 3 -- Yes I've played and done pretty much every single quest in game --I'm down to about 15 or so quests left in the entire MOria expansion after having level'd up more than one character to 50 and above 40 pre Moria.  I even focuss'd on one character for the most part and even had practically all my deeds done -- was down to about 10 or 11 deeds left pre MOria.    With all that said -- I've never once at all felt bored or not immersed in this game.    I feel it's the best user interface for immersion out there -- but then again I love the stories, Middle eart etc.   It's exactly what I expected even better.   So this last point is in answer to the challenge -- yes I"ve done it all practically and not been bored.  So it IS possible -- possible for a good chunk of people.

I would tend to agree with the op that folks need a frontal labotomy if they think the game is boring however -- not everyone enjoys the same things so I acknowledge such a statement to be totally unfair.   However the opposite response is true -- Oh just you wait you're going to be bored to tears eventually in this game it's all a GRIND.   Well after playing for over 2 solid years including my time in closed beta and playing the game to the nth degree with the content it offers I can honeslty state -- I"m NOT bored  -- but ok since you know better I"ll keep waiting to become *Bored* =P
 

Originally posted by musicman2000

three points -- OMG I'm sick of the bash the LOTRO quest system posts.    Go design a game that doesn't need to include said *filler* quests to level.   You don't NEED to do them -- just go farm mobs to get your xp then if you don't like these.  At least there are goals that progress.    Oh and the stages of mobs -- what did you expect???? It's MIDDLE EARTH.  You're going to kill goblins, orcs, wolves, wargs, etc etc because that's what is in MIDDLE EARTH.   Geesh -- my point being the folks that seem to not enjoy the style of game play just logged in to play an MMO but didn't care about getting immersed in to Middle earth by their own effort.    No MMO is going to baby sit you and hold you by the hand to encourage your immersion -- they are all user interfaces to facilitate your adventuring.

Point 2 -- READ the quests.   Even the filler exp getting quest lines have stories to them if you READ them.  You are sent to kill goblins, orcs whatever for a PURPOSE and you need to READ that PURPOSE to GET the STORY.   Don't just look at the quest objective and go WTF this sucks!    Again but that does take effort on the player's part -- God forbid.

Point 3 -- Yes I've played and done pretty much every single quest in game --I'm down to about 15 or so quests left in the entire MOria expansion after having level'd up more than one character to 50 and above 40 pre Moria.  I even focuss'd on one character for the most part and even had practically all my deeds done -- was down to about 10 or 11 deeds left pre MOria.    With all that said -- I've never once at all felt bored or not immersed in this game.    I feel it's the best user interface for immersion out there -- but then again I love the stories, Middle eart etc.   It's exactly what I expected even better.   So this last point is in answer to the challenge -- yes I"ve done it all practically and not been bored.  So it IS possible -- possible for a good chunk of people.

I would tend to agree with the op that folks need a frontal labotomy if they think the game is boring however -- not everyone enjoys the same things so I acknowledge such a statement to be totally unfair.   However the opposite response is true -- Oh just you wait you're going to be bored to tears eventually in this game it's all a GRIND.   Well after playing for over 2 solid years including my time in closed beta and playing the game to the nth degree with the content it offers I can honeslty state -- I"m NOT bored  -- but ok since you know better I"ll keep waiting to become *Bored* =P
 

I'd add that like in real life doing the same thing over and over again in a game is boring, so if you're bored and stressed by regular quests, do epic quests, or RP, or craft, or travel, or chat, or help others, or work on your deeds, or your faction reputations, or check the AH, or redecorate your house with trophies, or organize kinship events, or fish, or mine resources, or play music, or fight pvp, etc. And I'm only playing with one avatar ;)

As LOTRO isn't so linear, gear, level and raid-oriented, doesn't care about faction wars and interplayer competition you can just relax, not hurry and enjoy it in many ways.

Originally posted by musicman2000

Point 2 -- READ the quests.   Even the filler exp getting quest lines have stories to them if you READ them.  You are sent to kill goblins, orcs whatever for a PURPOSE

QFT!

This really makes the game more enjoyable. I find the faster I try to take this game the less I enjoy it so slow down and get into it. Another thing I love is when a seemingly mundane quest (go find this thing or kill this) turns into something epic.

The main example I crossed recently was 'The White Hart' in Trollshaws, but I won't spoil anything.

Another thing to read and which is easy to overlook maybe not even know about, is the lovely descriptions you find in your "deed log", hover mouse over locations you'e explored and there is a very nicely written piece of text, usually describing a little bit of history or lore regarding the location you've added to your log. Very nice, this really is a reader's game :)

I love this game.

Its very addictive and does not let you go!

Much of the game focuses on quests and the storyline, so it is not for everyone.

I wanted to add I just finished a 6 hour run in Garth Agarwen with my lvl 33 Burglar in a 6man party...

I don't know why it took 6 hours but I have to say ... WOW :P (no not the usual WoW)

It all seems like an epic journey to me so far... Even if yeah there's kill that and this...I think it's inevitable..However, the quests behind the "grind" are extremely well written and all part of a whole.

I'm only lvl 33 and so many times I said to my girlfriend (we play together) "Remember this guy? HE was bla bla"   or "This is the Red Maid...she caused this and this we did the quest 2 days ago".

It all feels well bound together and the quest rewarded items are excellent so far... Not that gear matters that much but it's good to get a 18.2dps dagger whereas my current was only 14.7 or so... Definately not vendor junk !

It's boring only if you do the quests without reading them or caring for the stories just to ding.

Anyway I'm going off topic.

I especially liked the Red Maid root in the end of Garth Agarwen where souls kept rising from the floor and grabbed your legs so you won't move...Gave me the chills ! Pretty imaginative for just a "boss rooting ability" if you ask me!

I played the game for about a year or so. I found it very simplistic in terms of other games I played. The instances were really easy, we 5 maned them with no difficulty, which could be considered good, as we didnt have to search for a 6th to fill the group, or bad, as they didn't pose any challenge at all. Helegerod, or whatever the 24 raid thing was called, was pretty easy too. We took out all but the dragon with 2 groups easily. I tried the rift dungeon and completed it after the 2nd time running it.... quit shortly after that as it just didn't pose any form of a challenge. My friends and I often called the game a MMO on training wheels, due to it's level of difficulty. Anyway, I did love the graphics and story line. Also, on the server I played on, there weren't that many childish players, which is what kept us playing it for as long as we did.

Originally posted by DeadlyByDez

So I re rolled after leaving the game initially on launch month (damn wow and its luring way). Here is a brief summary of why I am kicking myself that I left.

So I enter the beautiful started area of Edhelion. The rousing score and urgency of battle surrounds me. After a few skirmishes with the invading goblins I am informed there is a troll at the gates! WTF!” I think! To myself. So with bow in hand I wait for the beast to break the gates open, expecting a desperate fight. When out of no where Elrond himself shows up and fells the beast. At this point I am thinking “ Oh my God, how great is this”. After that I am treated to a cut scene.

I then find myself in the next refuge of Celondim, anxiously awaiting the next series of quests. 5-6 epic quests later, followed by meaningless wandering (by choice), and exploration of ruins. Any ruined statue/ castle I find I find myself wondering what the history is behind it and what it’s story is. The world feels lived in not just by us players but by some unknown people before hand.

My point is in a nut shell, that any one who tell you that lord of the rings quests are boring is on crack…full stop. I know opinions are never wrong, but this one is. Anyone who is saying that the graphics/world is boring needs to have a frontal lobotomy done and I mean ASAP. I cannot wait to get to the mines, see the Balrog and Balins chamber. What excites me most is the furthering of the story we all know and love. The green fields of Rohan, the defense of helms deep. The Battle at Pellenor and the the culmination of all our efforts at Mordor. For now I am content exploring my own little story.

Sorry for the rant, but I had forgotten what an MMO was capable of doing to your imagination
 

It's not that LoTRO did anything THAT different, it's just that you're more passionate and knowledgable of the story. People who love the Warcraft series and the lore surrounding it really get into the quests and dungeons in that game. It really is no different. The only difference is that LoTRO has magnificent graphics, which adds an extra layer to the game that WoW doesn't have.

I play both for the story. The difference is that I know who Arthas is, but have no idea who Elrond is, so I wasn't impressed. He was just some frail elf to me.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by DeadlyByDez

So I re rolled after leaving the game initially on launch month (damn wow and its luring way). Here is a brief summary of why I am kicking myself that I left.

So I enter the beautiful started area of Edhelion. The rousing score and urgency of battle surrounds me. After a few skirmishes with the invading goblins I am informed there is a troll at the gates! WTF!” I think! To myself. So with bow in hand I wait for the beast to break the gates open, expecting a desperate fight. When out of no where Elrond himself shows up and fells the beast. At this point I am thinking “ Oh my God, how great is this”. After that I am treated to a cut scene.

I then find myself in the next refuge of Celondim, anxiously awaiting the next series of quests. 5-6 epic quests later, followed by meaningless wandering (by choice), and exploration of ruins. Any ruined statue/ castle I find I find myself wondering what the history is behind it and what it’s story is. The world feels lived in not just by us players but by some unknown people before hand.

My point is in a nut shell, that any one who tell you that lord of the rings quests are boring is on crack…full stop. I know opinions are never wrong, but this one is. Anyone who is saying that the graphics/world is boring needs to have a frontal lobotomy done and I mean ASAP. I cannot wait to get to the mines, see the Balrog and Balins chamber. What excites me most is the furthering of the story we all know and love. The green fields of Rohan, the defense of helms deep. The Battle at Pellenor and the the culmination of all our efforts at Mordor. For now I am content exploring my own little story.

Sorry for the rant, but I had forgotten what an MMO was capable of doing to your imagination
 

 

It's not that LoTRO did anything THAT different, it's just that you're more passionate and knowledgable of the story. People who love the Warcraft series and the lore surrounding it really get into the quests and dungeons in that game. It really is no different. The only difference is that LoTRO has magnificent graphics, which adds an extra layer to the game that WoW doesn't have.

I play both for the story. The difference is that I know who Arthas is, but have no idea who Elrond is, so I wasn't impressed. He was just some frail elf to me.

Have you never seen the LOTR movies?  They're awesome movies and have a lot of the lore in them.  You don't need to read the books to get most of it.  

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Play it more, and then tell how exciting it is, when all your quests are kill x boars, kill y bears, kill z goblins, etc. Over and over and over again. Every 5 levels there's a whole new set of the same critters you've been fighting over and over again.

Okay, it's not all grinding. There's the ever so original "Hey, why don't you go over to _____ and talk to ______, they need your help".

 

Don't get me wrong, some parts are actually quite inventive and cinematic. But there's a whole lot of filler in the game as well.  Unfortunately, more of the latter than the good stuff.

 

lol you just described EVERY mmo out there, there isn't a game out there where you either A don't have to kill x number of monsters or B go here get this go there deliver that, blah blah.

MMO's are about how fun they are, and of the current batch, i would have to say lotro is on top in fun factor.

I had the same reaction at first as the OP, and I'm sure most people. You're welcomed into the world with an awesome cinematic experience with nice storyline and voice acting and all that. Afterwards, the game is back to the standard fare of quests that are either to deliver something, or to kill something.

The story parts of the game like the opening are amazing. Unfortunately everything else is so lackluster - aside from graphics I suppose... that is to say, the environment, not so much the character models - that it's too boring for me to play through it all to get to the few good moments.

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Play it more, and then tell how exciting it is, when all your quests are kill x boars, kill y bears, kill z goblins, etc. Over and over and over again. Every 5 levels there's a whole new set of the same critters you've been fighting over and over again.

Okay, it's not all grinding. There's the ever so original "Hey, why don't you go over to _____ and talk to ______, they need your help".

 

Don't get me wrong, some parts are actually quite inventive and cinematic. But there's a whole lot of filler in the game as well.  Unfortunately, more of the latter than the good stuff.

    Thats kinda how I felt about the game also.....I was gung ho also my first couple of weeks in LoTRO...."Oh why didnt I keep playing after beta" blah blah blah........Then after about a month if you play with any regularity at all you hit the wall.......If you jsut play one, maybe two, characters only yo ucan make it through LoTRO without too much boredom, but if you liek to play alts like some of us do it is an excrutiating game eventually.......Like this poster said at the later levels your still killing the same type of animals you killed in the newbie areas......Their label may say level 40 but they feel just like the same mobs you killed at level 4.......

       I'm guessing MoM has put alot of fire back into the game.....I left a few weeks before it was released and I was so bored with it I had zero desire to even look at MoM.......Also when I left my server was dying quickly.....It felt like alot of players had left for AoC and then WAr had just released when I left and many more left for it also.......I'm glad the game is going well for some of you but dont be shocked if youre writing how bored you are with the game in a couple months.......

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by DeadlyByDez

So I re rolled after leaving the game initially on launch month (damn wow and its luring way). Here is a brief summary of why I am kicking myself that I left.

So I enter the beautiful started area of Edhelion. The rousing score and urgency of battle surrounds me. After a few skirmishes with the invading goblins I am informed there is a troll at the gates! WTF!” I think! To myself. So with bow in hand I wait for the beast to break the gates open, expecting a desperate fight. When out of no where Elrond himself shows up and fells the beast. At this point I am thinking “ Oh my God, how great is this”. After that I am treated to a cut scene.

I then find myself in the next refuge of Celondim, anxiously awaiting the next series of quests. 5-6 epic quests later, followed by meaningless wandering (by choice), and exploration of ruins. Any ruined statue/ castle I find I find myself wondering what the history is behind it and what it’s story is. The world feels lived in not just by us players but by some unknown people before hand.

My point is in a nut shell, that any one who tell you that lord of the rings quests are boring is on crack…full stop. I know opinions are never wrong, but this one is. Anyone who is saying that the graphics/world is boring needs to have a frontal lobotomy done and I mean ASAP. I cannot wait to get to the mines, see the Balrog and Balins chamber. What excites me most is the furthering of the story we all know and love. The green fields of Rohan, the defense of helms deep. The Battle at Pellenor and the the culmination of all our efforts at Mordor. For now I am content exploring my own little story.

Sorry for the rant, but I had forgotten what an MMO was capable of doing to your imagination
 

 

It's not that LoTRO did anything THAT different, it's just that you're more passionate and knowledgable of the story. People who love the Warcraft series and the lore surrounding it really get into the quests and dungeons in that game. It really is no different. The only difference is that LoTRO has magnificent graphics, which adds an extra layer to the game that WoW doesn't have.

I play both for the story. The difference is that I know who Arthas is, but have no idea who Elrond is, so I wasn't impressed. He was just some frail elf to me.

Have you never seen the LOTR movies?  They're awesome movies and have a lot of the lore in them.  You don't need to read the books to get most of it.  

I seen the movies a few times and thought they were fairly boring.

Originally posted by Theocritus

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Play it more, and then tell how exciting it is, when all your quests are kill x boars, kill y bears, kill z goblins, etc. Over and over and over again. Every 5 levels there's a whole new set of the same critters you've been fighting over and over again.

Okay, it's not all grinding. There's the ever so original "Hey, why don't you go over to _____ and talk to ______, they need your help".

 

Don't get me wrong, some parts are actually quite inventive and cinematic. But there's a whole lot of filler in the game as well.  Unfortunately, more of the latter than the good stuff.

 

    Thats kinda how I felt about the game also.....I was gung ho also my first couple of weeks in LoTRO...."Oh why didnt I keep playing after beta" blah blah blah........Then after about a month if you play with any regularity at all you hit the wall.......If you jsut play one, maybe two, characters only yo ucan make it through LoTRO without too much boredom, but if you liek to play alts like some of us do it is an excrutiating game eventually.......Like this poster said at the later levels your still killing the same type of animals you killed in the newbie areas......Their label may say level 40 but they feel just like the same mobs you killed at level 4.......

       I'm guessing MoM has put alot of fire back into the game.....I left a few weeks before it was released and I was so bored with it I had zero desire to even look at MoM.......Also when I left my server was dying quickly.....It felt like alot of players had left for AoC and then WAr had just released when I left and many more left for it also.......I'm glad the game is going well for some of you but dont be shocked if youre writing how bored you are with the game in a couple months.......

Yeah, games like these, that revolve around a story and around doing quests aren't good MMO's to play for an extended period of time with any regularity.

Take WoW for example, I'm about to start month 4 and I am working on Naxx right now. If you don't know what that is, it's the second to last raid you'll do and the longest lvl 80 raid atm. In other words, I have about a month's worth of play left in that game and that's only 1 day per week.

LoTRO also revolves around a story, but is even more linear, because you can't play the game more than once without having to repeat the same zones. Games like this make it hard to create alts and stay interested in the game at the same time, unless you're just the type that doesn't get bothered by watching the same movie or reading the same book over and over and over again.

Me? Well I play 1 character in WoW and 1 character in LoTRO. I've played every class in WoW ranging from lvl 5-55, aside from my main. I won't be creating an alt there again. LoTRO? Maybe I'll have an alt after running through the game with one character, but I've learned through past experience that creating alts in these games will just put me off of the game before the 30 day trial period is even over. So I might as well play through the game once and then worry about an alt. After all, I picked up the game to play through the Epic quests and see all of the zones content, not to start a virtual life.

That's where sandbox games excel and where creating alts is better for.