Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Originally posted by Taram

 

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Originally posted by raykor
I would sign-up for this game so damn fast if it wasn't for their "real-time-you-will-never-catch-up" leveling system.  I know it's an old complaint that many vets try very hard to convince everyone is not important but I wonder how many of those same vets would embrace any significant change to the leveling system.  It'll never happen.

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Obvious troll is obvious.
This has been asked and answered thousands of times on the EVE forums. There is absolutely no need to catch up. And by the time you've been in the game a year you're "older" than half the pilots in the game anyway.

"catch up" is a myth spawned by people too lazy to figure out the game mechanics and why "catching up" is irrelevant.

 

Disagreed.

There is a huge problem for new players and that is simply that no corps worth a damn will invite you for at least 6 months-1year. This leaves you trying to learn the game solo, which is a very difficult thing to do. The only option most players who actually want to be decent in combat is to mission for a couple months (which gets incredibly boring) - and the problem here is that even after that they will only be skilled for missioning.

It isnt very appealing for new players the only see the missoning portion of the game for their first 2 subsciption cycles.

Sure, they can get in a Domi in a few weeks.. but they wont be skilled enough to actually do good. They have to do ALOT of grinding to afford rigs etc to make it worth it. As they approach the point of getting able to mission successfully for a profit, their going to randomly lose ships here and there because their tank cant hold up. This ends up being like an 100m hit for new players due to loss of rigs, which is effectively a couple days of work. And their stuck with an unrigged Domi, that their skills are NOT good enough to successfully mission in.

As someone said earlier, if your a solo player then Eve is not the game for you. Yet your only choice is to solo or join small corps of people who dont know what they are doing, where you wont have enough  total skill points or enough manpower to achieve very much.

It's easy to say you can just hop in a frig and play the role of tackler, but try making a new character, talk to none of your old friends, completely cut yourself off from yuor other characters assistance and ISK, and see how much fun you actually have for the first few months... being a tackler is worthless without decent players by your side.

there is this forum on the official eve-o forums... it's called recruitment or corp recruitment, or something along those lines.

you go in there,  you look at the different corps recruiting.  you pick half a dozen you find interesting.

you visit their websites.  once you find one that sounds to your liking, you then talk to them ingame.

in other games, you get a random blind invite to join their guild and you just go along.

other games don't control vast areas of the gaming environment.  other games don't have wars between the guilds, where one guild CAN displace another guild and take over the first guild's home.  other games don't have 1,000+ people in a single political entity which may be engaged in multiple wars and may turn against former allies in a few months.

you can not treat eve as other games, when it comes to joining a guild/corp.  this part of the game requires just as much research as deciding on what line of ships you want to fly, or if you really do want to specialize in exploration or invention.

this is not elitism.  this is fact stated.  you can NOT treat any aspect of eve, as you would any other MMO currently on the market; BECAUSE eve is not like any other game on the market currently.

there's a reason that people harp on finding the right corp for your playstyle and/or personality -- it really is THAT important.

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Originally posted by Taram

 

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Originally posted by raykor
I would sign-up for this game so damn fast if it wasn't for their "real-time-you-will-never-catch-up" leveling system.  I know it's an old complaint that many vets try very hard to convince everyone is not important but I wonder how many of those same vets would embrace any significant change to the leveling system.  It'll never happen.

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Obvious troll is obvious.
This has been asked and answered thousands of times on the EVE forums. There is absolutely no need to catch up. And by the time you've been in the game a year you're "older" than half the pilots in the game anyway.

"catch up" is a myth spawned by people too lazy to figure out the game mechanics and why "catching up" is irrelevant.

 

Disagreed.

There is a huge problem for new players and that is simply that no corps worth a damn will invite you for at least 6 months-1year. This leaves you trying to learn the game solo, which is a very difficult thing to do. The only option most players who actually want to be decent in combat is to mission for a couple months (which gets incredibly boring) - and the problem here is that even after that they will only be skilled for missioning.

It isnt very appealing for new players the only see the missoning portion of the game for their first 2 subsciption cycles.

Sure, they can get in a Domi in a few weeks.. but they wont be skilled enough to actually do good. They have to do ALOT of grinding to afford rigs etc to make it worth it. As they approach the point of getting able to mission successfully for a profit, their going to randomly lose ships here and there because their tank cant hold up. This ends up being like an 100m hit for new players due to loss of rigs, which is effectively a couple days of work. And their stuck with an unrigged Domi, that their skills are NOT good enough to successfully mission in.

As someone said earlier, if your a solo player then Eve is not the game for you. Yet your only choice is to solo or join small corps of people who dont know what they are doing, where you wont have enough  total skill points or enough manpower to achieve very much.

It's easy to say you can just hop in a frig and play the role of tackler, but try making a new character, talk to none of your old friends, completely cut yourself off from yuor other characters assistance and ISK, and see how much fun you actually have for the first few months... being a tackler is worthless without decent players by your side.

What a complete load of nonsense.  You can be very competitive in this game in a minimum of three months and that is just not tackling.  Nothing like stamping the "clueless" monicker on your forehead with that diatribe.

There are plenty of good corporations that take anyone not on trial.  Best you get in a small one to start that has experienced members.  Trying to claim no one will let you join just shows you did not even try.

 

Umm, if you notice, I said "for their first 2 subscription cycles.

In other words, that means everything I said was before three months. So  what you said is pretty much in agreement to what I said...

for the first 3 subscription cycles in wow, you're pretty much useless to the regular max level crowd who are grinding for their next tier of dungeon gear.  you have to level up to 80, get at least a couple of the professions to a reasonable level that a lvl 80 can benefit from your profession skills.  you have to grind up reputation with various factions.  then you have to try to find guild members that haven't advanced far in the tier equipment gear, in order to allow you to join in on the tier-gear-dungeon-farming grind.

but, after several months of begging onto raids, you might get to the point where you can contribute to a lvl 80 pvp instance or possibly do a decent job in a raid dungeon.

Originally posted by Suraknar

Originally posted by Danag

One of the points of EVE to keep in mind:

A 2 month nOOb has the ability to kite a 3 year vet'.

Let's look at this. Here I am... In a Fleet op.. No one stepped up to take on the role of tackler, so I fit out a cheap frigate with a micro-warp drive and some warp jammers and webifiers so I can help hold down the targets. Up high I might have a couple light missile launchers or small turrets... Nothing that's going to cause much damage, but just enough to pew-pew with.

At this point, I'm no stronger than anyone else in a frigate, and I'm certainly no stronger than anyone else in a bigger ship. Maybe my skills allow me to use better micro-warp drives, or allow me to "use" my equipment more efficiently. Maybe I'll get a few more points of CPU or Powergrid, or Cap'.

But really, I'm still in a frigate... I'm still _very_ squishy, and if I'm not paying attention anyone will be able to take me out, be it another 3 year vet' or a 2 month nOOb in a ship of their own.

Try making that claim in an XP-grinding, "level-based" MMO.

Go ahead and put a level 10 warrior up against say a level 50 or level 80 warrior in your basic Hack'n'Slash game. The vet' could stand in an open field nekkid, with no armor and no weapons, and that poor level 10 player would never be able to kill him. And even weaponless and armorless that vet' would most-likely 1-hit-dead or 2-hit-dead that level 10 player.

 

EVE is level based, it is just hidden, or rather expressed in such a way that is not as apparent as a Level number besides your life Bar.

In essence, the more skills you have the higher level you are, and the way to get more skills is unfortunately time based not action based.

All other factors being equal,

If you are level 20 million skill points in a Frigate, and go against a 2 million skill-points guy in another frigate, you will win.

If you are a 20 million skill points and go against a 3 million skill-points in a Cruiser, you will lose.

But if you go on a cruiser, and go against the same 3 million skill points guy on a cruiser you will win.

Your example with the noob acting as a Tackler is a nice way for new players to get their feet wet in Fleet ops, but, ultimately these players want to be able to fight, and don;t want to wait months before they can fight in (at least a a Battleship), and definitelly are very dissapointed when they find out that they have to wait even many more months in order to efficiently use that batleship, and are additionally dissapointed when they realise that..

When Equal sized ships are involved, the guy with the more skill points (level) will most often win the fight.

And the worse thing is, that as long as that guy with more skill points is active you can never catch up to them.

In most other level based games, you may not be able to kill that lvl 50 or 80 as a level 10, but, you can catch up in a reasonable time, and he will still be 50 or 80 when you raise and equal the playing field, and then you use your "player skill" and can win.

In EvE, it takes what....25 years to max all skills, and reach the highest possible level?

Sorry, EVE maybe a Sandbox game, which I love, but it is not a Character Skill Based System either, it is a Level Based system, a very long level based system at that.

EvE needs a fundamental change in its mechanics if it wants to accomplish mainstream popularity (level based Systems are not the best suited for PvP - Shadowbane is a prime example of how counterproductive a Level based system is with a PvP focus).

Or,

A shift in gameplay direction, become more PVE oriented (WoW is level based and a PVE game first and foremost).

As long as neither of these two things happens, it will remain a niche game..

wow, play eve much?

niche game would be 250,000 subs?  so how many other western games have less subs?  that would make them even more niche, yes?

nooooooooooooooow, i am an advocate that NO, you will never catch up in total skill points.  no, you will not.

if i'm flying a frigate, i DO have every skill that i could utilize in a frig to at least lvl 4, and most all of them to lvl 5 (rigs would only be lvl 4). 

so, there is some advanced gear i could use in pvp; but if i'm going into a fight that's not going to be small; why would i want to fit 50 million isk worth of gear on a frig that i'm going to lose?  odds are it'll be a fairly cheap fit, so that it's easily replaced.

so, yes, a fairly new toon (under a month of age, player actually did some research when creating the toon, OR joined a good corp), or two or three new toons ganging up, CAN take my frig out.  make that group of new toons into say 5 or 6 total and let them ambush someone in a dessie, cruiser or bc and see who comes out on top.

take 30 lvl 50 wow toons and let them fight a lvl 80.   make those toons lvl 60 and let them take on that 80.... make those toons lvl 70, and let them take on that lvl 80 decked out in the latest raid and pvp gear (which he WILL wear at all times, because he can't lose it).      what are their chances?  don't forget that once those toons get to level 80, they've got a LOT of grinding in a lot of areas BEFORE they can be competitive to that max geared lvl 80 (don't forget that's what you were talking about, a veteran eve player with tons of skill points)

seeing as eve has more subs than any western game other than WOW, and eve is completely pvp centric (wow is not not by any stretch of the imagination), AND eve bought out white wolf.... your entire argument seems to be based upon faulty logic.

honestly, honestly all the way to goodness -- posts like the quoted simply can not be from people that treated eve as a unique game.  people love to say it's a niche game.  fine, if that's what you believe; then TREAT IT THAT WAY.    if it's a niche game, that means it's NOT like the other games you've played, and eve is NOT like the other games you've played --  SO STOP TREATING IT LIKE IT IS.

basic intelligent reasoning gives us this line of thinking.  so follow that line of thinking to its logical conclusion and you have the player actually doing a little research into the game, game mechanics, a good corp/alliance to join, etc.   instead of the willy nilly dowhateveriwantwheneveriwant approach you get in the non-niche game (wow).

if you have someone doing all of that, and they're making a negative post; odds are, the post will be "i didn't like the game, i just couldn't get into the constant wars and the vastness of space and i just want a simpler game where i can totally relax and play afk a lot."

when i say eve isn't for everyone, i DO mean that -- currently, eve is unique on the market.  treat it as a unique entity (i.e. not like other MMOs), and your experience will be radically different than if you go at it like it's wow in space.

Well gents thank you for the replies and retort, specially Danag and Kyleran, we will just have to agree to disagree.

I understand from where you come from and you have made good points on the multilateral nature of EVE's skill system, to me it is still Levels it is how I perceive it, but my biggest annoyance is the fact that it is time based.

I will only say this, since you guys mentioned it, in relation to games that "take you by the hand" of sorts, I feel like being taken by the hand too when my next skill takes 60 days+. So that ain't different from any other scripted character evolution path to follow. Additionally, the system pushes one to specialise, how different is that from a Class based system?

In any case, it may simply not be the game for me, or I may not be a player for it, which ever way you prefer it.

I love sandbox games, I love the Sci-Fi setting, and I have tryed all these years to like EVE, it always causes frustration, I find myself logging on just to change skills, and going to play another game till I build enough nostalgia to actually play for a while again, over and over, but I am fed up.

I am the kind of player that likes to Explore, not only physical locations but also gameplay and game mechanics, and I just perceive its leveling system as an impediment to that which gives me fun.

So, I will be departing from this game, and trying not to look back (yet I'll still keep an eye in case it ever changes, it has great potential in my eyes but it lacks in many areas as it is now).

Cheers to you, wishing you fun! (I'll be hopefully be playing Darkfall soon enough).

 EDIT: As for the "niche" I used that term in a provocative way a bit, I am sorry, I do not think it is a Niche game, played UO for 5 years and it had 150k with much less per server and that was a success, so I am taking this back in the spirit of eliminating ...ahem...mainstream (WoW) rhetoric.

Originally posted by Suraknar

Well, guys for the record, and for those that try to make a point that I do not know the game instead of actually bringing forth counter arguments upon what I said.

I beta tested EvE, and I been around in it for a long time. I may not be active in its forums etc, but i am there, reading, and playing, and experiencing it.

My current character is almost 3 years old. As for WoW, I do not like that game and I did give it a fair chance too. I started playing these games with UO, the playground type of game is my type of game, and I do not play themepark games for more than 6 months usually, that is about how long they keep my attention.

Now,

Some interesting points were brought up, and I won't say that these do not have merit, I am not disputing, Combat tactics and mechanics here. I am simply stating that EvE, even if a Sandbox game, does not have a Skill based system. And this doe snot come out of my ignorance hat, it comes from actual experience, playing EVE and many other MMORPG's since Ultima Online.

What I have been observing in EVE for the Past 2 years or so, is an increassing number of people prefering Mission running rather than what EVE used to be an "eat or be eaten" kind of game.

I also observe resentment from the Vets towards the "new" players. But, player politics asside. It wondered, why is it like that.

The fact is because most people tryed PvP and got their buts handed to them, by far more experienced ones, and then the answer was "you need more skills here and more skills there" etc etc. Skill in EVE however, are only gotten through time. And there comes a point where people simply log on to change a skill and log off to play some other game. Then many start wondering, Why am I even subscribed to that game I am not even playing?

See, people don't want to wait 3 months before their character is ready to matter, because what they want to do is have fun, yet, the Level at which they are told they could be having an average success vs Risk result is in 3 months from today, in many case more, depending what one wishes to do and what ship they want to be effectively be flying.

Another reason is that Mission Combat (EvE PvE) is actually very fun to many people, more fun than PvP Combat. Not because the AI is Dump but because it is a straight up Fight, Big lvl 4 Missions with a small Fleet are lots of fun. But I am now diverging too much from the topic, which is the Level system, Combat mechanics are a whole different story and an area needing improvement as well.

Suffice it to say that the above reasons is why I presented the PvE approach alternative, it is not my prefered solution however.

I would prefer that CCP actually sits down for once and rethinks their approach to this system and comes up with a more streamlined approach to Skills, that permits players to reach the point they want to faster and within a more reasonable time frame, that also permits people to catch one another in some given area within that reasonable time frame, so that they don't have to worry about their skills anymore and focus instead on the many and diverse activities of a playground.

I know one of the major reasons they haven;t touched that is because there will be an outcry by the vets who actually did spend years perfecting their characters, and that it will cause many to rage quit, yet, it depends on what CCP wants too. If CCP is happy with the current player bas, then no changes are needed, if not, they can start at the bottm with the Skill/Level system.

Take a look at this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online

While I would agree with many of you that 14 days is not enough really to fully grasp EVE, some of the long terms points he makes are valid.

At least the Certification planner, helps, this is one of the best features since EVE's launch, it does help players to have a better idea of how to go where they need to go in order to accomplish that which they want to be doing.

However, It still takes months, if not years ....of waiting (instead of playing).

you mean like bumping new character skill points from like 30/50k to a couple hundred thousand to like 700-800k?  starting new characters off with all those skills compared to how few previously?

i totally agree that if a character has trained for combat from the word go, that a 50m sp toon WILL have an advantage over a week old character...  

however, two points i have, that dispute everything you are advocating....

eve is not a single player game, it IS a group based game (unlike wow/eq/whatever where you can "max level" completely solo).

second point -  goonswarm

not goonswarm today; but goonswarm when it was 90% noobalicious.

the very existence of goonswarm (might i add PRE-800k skillpoint starting characters) is all the argument needed to show that in actuality (not theoretically), new players can make a huge difference and engage the big boys in pvp.

again, eve is NOT like any other game on the market.  the fact that you can take and lose systems/regions is proof of that.  this isn't stuff just changing hands during an rvr battle, this is stuff that can be outrightly destroyed and/or replaced.

stop treating it like all the other games out there.  even dread lord UO was not like eve... housing wasn't around in UO at that time and even after housing was introduced -- you could always ban people from your house and be safe there.

yes, goons took a beating back in the day, with bob chestbeating so proudly that they'd beat a bunch of noobs and that bob would henceforth forever control the goon game.

then you turn around and an alliance here and an alliance there and you saw bob driven back from being mighty overlords down to controlling what?  some npc system where they, literally, couldn't be forced from the base?

if goonswarm had never existed; then the arguments presented in the quoted COULD be theoretical only... goonswarm has proven, thru actual gameplay, that a bunch of noobs in a leaky boat can change the political landscape in eve.

Originally posted by Suraknar

Well gents thank you for the replies and retort, specially Danag and Kyleran, we will just have to agree to disagree.

I understand from where you come from and you have made good points on the multilateral nature of EVE's skill system, to me it is still Levels it is how I perceive it, but my biggest annoyance is the fact that it is time based.

my biggest annoyance with games like wow, is that i HAVE to participate in their dueling-arena-system, or the boringly repetitive BGs and dungeon raids, in order to get the GREAT gear.  and that's only after hitting max level, and leveling up profession skills and reputations and on and on. 

i WANT to goof off when i play a game, i don't want to be stuck with a schedule.     and on eve... if that POS is coming out of reinforced at a time i'm sleeping, oh well, it's not getting my help... HOWEVER, my brosefs reside all over the world, so whenever that POS IS coming out of reinforced, will be someone's prime time.

I will only say this, since you guys mentioned it, in relation to games that "take you by the hand" of sorts, I feel like being taken by the hand too when my next skill takes 60 days+. So that ain't different from any other scripted character evolution path to follow. Additionally, the system pushes one to specialise, how different is that from a Class based system?

you only have one profession/sub profession/type of ship/playstyle (missioning, pvp, recon, exploration, etc), in which you CAN engage, that you have nothing to do while a 60 day skill trains?

if you've got good learning skills and a clone with decent implants (or even throwaway +3s, which you SHOULD have if you're to the point you're training 60 day skills), then that 60 day skill is.... what exactly?  lvl 5 dread?  it sure isn't a racial battleship to lvl 5.

how is it different than a class based system?  i already alluded to that in my response -- in wow, you're always a warrior.  in eve, i can have tons of skills in any area, and once i reach a certain point, then i'm 'da uber' in yet another profession/sub profession in eve. 

if i get an average of 2m sp per month...

how many months do i need to train to say that i'm pretty darned good in trading (skillpoint-wise, not player-skill-wise)? 1?  how many months to be damned good with leadership skills?  2?  what about corporation management?  768k on anchoring and i've got anchoring 5 and can start training for pos guns.  drones? guns? missiles?  2 months of training ~4m sp, and i can be pretty specialized in the type of drone/gun/missile that my ships favor.  seriously, in a year's time, you can be the equivalent of a warrior/mage/rogue/jester in wow.

In any case, it may simply not be the game for me, or I may not be a player for it, which ever way you prefer it.

I love sandbox games, I love the Sci-Fi setting, and I have tryed all these years to like EVE, it always causes frustration, I find myself logging on just to change skills, and going to play another game till I build enough nostalgia to actually play for a while again, over and over, but I am fed up.

don't treat eve like other games.  you've stated it's niche, treat it like its niche.

I am the kind of player that likes to Explore, not only physical locations but also gameplay and game mechanics, and I just perceive its leveling system as an impediment to that which gives me fun.

you've played the game how long?  why are you NOT expanding your skill sets to include multiple professions?

So, I will be departing from this game, and trying not to look back (yet I'll still keep an eye in case it ever changes, it has great potential in my eyes but it lacks in many areas as it is now).

with any luck, ambulation will open up a whole new world.

Cheers to you, wishing you fun! (I'll be hopefully be playing Darkfall soon enough).

 

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Originally posted by Suraknar
So, I will be departing from this game, and trying not to look back (yet I'll still keep an eye in case it ever changes, it has great potential in my eyes but it lacks in many areas as it is now).
Cheers to you, wishing you fun! (I'll be hopefully be playing Darkfall soon enough).

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Wishing you the best. Hope you find the MMO that fits you, :)

And of course, what type of MMO player would I be if I didn't ask;

"Dude, can I have your stuff??"

LMAO, :) j/k

Cheers!

Originally posted by Taram

 

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Originally posted by dterry
I'm a little worried about all this... Tech III sound alot like increasing gear grind rather than really expanding a game... New Player Experience sounds frightening when I enjoy the current player experience... but we shall see.
 
[holds breath]

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Err what game are you talking about?

EVE has never ever had a 'gear grind' at all. In fact it's frighteningly easy to afford things these days. Hell... I can solo my way to a Titan in just a few months if I really wanted to (you can easily make ~2bil a week just doing level 4 missions) and I'm by no means an expert at making isk. There are folks who make 1bil a day.

Yes EVE has it's pros and cons... but gear grind? Really? Since when? I can buy any T2 sub-BS ship in 1 days missioning... fitted... if I had/wanted to. For a T2 BS it'd take me maybe 3 days to get the funds for one.... For a Carrier? About 2 weeks given how I make isk.

Seriously don't get where people think EVE has any sort of "grind" to it. The only grind is the 'faction' grind to get to the level 4 agents in any given corp. And even that isn't really all that bad if you train the right skills.

Congratulations, you make a hell of alot more ISK then I do. But, I am not to the point that I can solo level 4's yet and when I consider my cash flow, and some of the astronomical prices on the Market... it feels a bit like gear grind when you look at Tech II or faction gear. So when they start talking about Tech III - my first response was "damn, how much is that going to cost?" In my case, I am hoping to be in a Megathron with just a Tech I (starter) fit by the end of the week. I can only play maybe 4 hours or so a couple of days during the week and longer on Sat-Sun. So making 2 Billion ISK in a week seems insane to me. But if you are pulling that from level 4's then hopefully things will be improving for me soon.

I just started crafting last week so my ISK situation does seem to be improving. But not to 2bil ISK.

So I would argue that yes, EVE does have gear grind. Although in comparison to WoW - or some other MMO's it is negligible - it doesn't rule the game. Which is why I said Tech III worried me - I don't want gear to rule EVE.

Originally posted by raykor

I would sign-up for this game so damn fast if it wasn't for their "real-time-you-will-never-catch-up" leveling system.  I know it's an old complaint that many vets try very hard to convince everyone is not important but I wonder how many of those same vets would embrace any significant change to the leveling system.  It'll never happen.

It's a fact ... skill trumps SkillPoints.  EVE is a big place with an almost infinite amount of stuff available to learn, but the simple fact of the matter is, what seperates new from old is the ability to diversify.  Within one month, your character can be extremely deadly.  I've done it, myself, with alts.  Make an alt, hop in an incursus or a rifter, slap on some guns, and raise a little hell.

Of course skillpoints matter, but what really makes the difference, what really decides whether you win or lose, is how you handle the stick.  And a healthy thirst for blood and carnage certainly contributes.

Millions of skill points will make your life easier in EVE.  It'll give you a more varied set of options, allowing you to perform just about any role you see fit.  But within 2 months, you'll be on a competitive level with the ship you choose to fly, and within 6 months, you'll be downright deadly, and it won't matter that the guy you're toed up against has 40 mil sp.

What counts is how good you are, not how many hours you've spent accumulating SP.  I've totally crushed people who had 50+ mil SP with less than 10 under my own belt.  Skill and viciousness is what wins killmails, not time spent docked in a station training.

Get some advice, streamline your training, and make some friends.  Those are the keys to success in EVE.  Pick something you like and concentrate your efforts there.  Trying to do EVERYTHING right out of the gate is what prevents people from getting a head start.  2 or 3 strong frigate pilots can wreak havoc.  I've done it, I've seen it done.  Hell a time or two, I've had it done to me.  Don't let the "vets" intimidate you based on pure time served alone.  Make them shoot you down.  Then learn from the experience and get better.

Suraknar my hats off to you for your informed & insightful posts admidst a thread of diehard EVE fanbois(gotta love that block option). As a 3 year veteran of the game myself I can also confirm the time-grind for this game is beyond the pale and why I abandoned it. It just stopped being FUN anymore and I came to the same conclusion.... that logging in to purely kick off another skill was not worth subscribing for.

I also concur with comments about being VERY solo UNFRIENDLY and a community that is self serving and ultimately detrimental to its long term future. (which is why its user numbers increases so slowly)

I will say one thing that EVE was great for near the end - an awesome solution for Insomnia - if I couldn't sleep all I had to do was boot up EVE for 10 mins and I was drifting off and ready for bed.

Originally posted by Suraknar

Well gents thank you for the replies and retort, specially Danag and Kyleran, we will just have to agree to disagree.

I understand from where you come from and you have made good points on the multilateral nature of EVE's skill system, to me it is still Levels it is how I perceive it, but my biggest annoyance is the fact that it is time based.

I will only say this, since you guys mentioned it, in relation to games that "take you by the hand" of sorts, I feel like being taken by the hand too when my next skill takes 60 days+. So that ain't different from any other scripted character evolution path to follow. Additionally, the system pushes one to specialise, how different is that from a Class based system?

In any case, it may simply not be the game for me, or I may not be a player for it, which ever way you prefer it.

I love sandbox games, I love the Sci-Fi setting, and I have tryed all these years to like EVE, it always causes frustration, I find myself logging on just to change skills, and going to play another game till I build enough nostalgia to actually play for a while again, over and over, but I am fed up.

I am the kind of player that likes to Explore, not only physical locations but also gameplay and game mechanics, and I just perceive its leveling system as an impediment to that which gives me fun.

So, I will be departing from this game, and trying not to look back (yet I'll still keep an eye in case it ever changes, it has great potential in my eyes but it lacks in many areas as it is now).

Cheers to you, wishing you fun! (I'll be hopefully be playing Darkfall soon enough).

 EDIT: As for the "niche" I used that term in a provocative way a bit, I am sorry, I do not think it is a Niche game, played UO for 5 years and it had 150k with much less per server and that was a success, so I am taking this back in the spirit of eliminating ...ahem...mainstream (WoW) rhetoric.

Interesting Duke,

You seem to play all the games I play. I too will be playing DF since it's most like UO, the best MMO of all time (pre-trammel that is).  Eve is my part time game.  The leveling system in Eve irks me as well but then again I'm not heavily invested into this game so I really can't say I lose sleep over it.  It's fun to log on every now and then to do some massive op and then log off.

Hopefully i'll see you around in DF, my gaming organization intends to be quite active.  =)

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Originally posted by Taram

 

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Originally posted by raykor
I would sign-up for this game so damn fast if it wasn't for their "real-time-you-will-never-catch-up" leveling system.  I know it's an old complaint that many vets try very hard to convince everyone is not important but I wonder how many of those same vets would embrace any significant change to the leveling system.  It'll never happen.

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Obvious troll is obvious.
This has been asked and answered thousands of times on the EVE forums. There is absolutely no need to catch up. And by the time you've been in the game a year you're "older" than half the pilots in the game anyway.

"catch up" is a myth spawned by people too lazy to figure out the game mechanics and why "catching up" is irrelevant.

 

Disagreed.

There is a huge problem for new players and that is simply that no corps worth a damn will invite you for at least 6 months-1year. This leaves you trying to learn the game solo, which is a very difficult thing to do. The only option most players who actually want to be decent in combat is to mission for a couple months (which gets incredibly boring) - and the problem here is that even after that they will only be skilled for missioning.

It isnt very appealing for new players the only see the missoning portion of the game for their first 2 subsciption cycles.

As someone said earlier, if your a solo player then Eve is not the game for you. Yet your only choice is to solo or join small corps of people who dont know what they are doing, where you wont have enough  total skill points or enough manpower to achieve very much.

It's easy to say you can just hop in a frig and play the role of tackler, but try making a new character, talk to none of your old friends, completely cut yourself off from yuor other characters assistance and ISK, and see how much fun you actually have for the first few months... being a tackler is worthless without decent players by your side.

So you are saying that joining the corporation well known for 4+ years of new player teaching, Eve University, is worthless?

Originally posted by TM_Ranker

Originally posted by Suraknar

Well gents thank you for the replies and retort, specially Danag and Kyleran, we will just have to agree to disagree.

I understand from where you come from and you have made good points on the multilateral nature of EVE's skill system, to me it is still Levels it is how I perceive it, but my biggest annoyance is the fact that it is time based.

I will only say this, since you guys mentioned it, in relation to games that "take you by the hand" of sorts, I feel like being taken by the hand too when my next skill takes 60 days+. So that ain't different from any other scripted character evolution path to follow. Additionally, the system pushes one to specialise, how different is that from a Class based system?

In any case, it may simply not be the game for me, or I may not be a player for it, which ever way you prefer it.

I love sandbox games, I love the Sci-Fi setting, and I have tryed all these years to like EVE, it always causes frustration, I find myself logging on just to change skills, and going to play another game till I build enough nostalgia to actually play for a while again, over and over, but I am fed up.

I am the kind of player that likes to Explore, not only physical locations but also gameplay and game mechanics, and I just perceive its leveling system as an impediment to that which gives me fun.

So, I will be departing from this game, and trying not to look back (yet I'll still keep an eye in case it ever changes, it has great potential in my eyes but it lacks in many areas as it is now).

Cheers to you, wishing you fun! (I'll be hopefully be playing Darkfall soon enough).

 EDIT: As for the "niche" I used that term in a provocative way a bit, I am sorry, I do not think it is a Niche game, played UO for 5 years and it had 150k with much less per server and that was a success, so I am taking this back in the spirit of eliminating ...ahem...mainstream (WoW) rhetoric.

 

Interesting Duke,

 

You seem to play all the games I play. I too will be playing DF since it's most like UO, the best MMO of all time (pre-trammel that is).  Eve is my part time game.  The leveling system in Eve irks me as well but then again I'm not heavily invested into this game so I really can't say I lose sleep over it.  It's fun to log on every now and then to do some massive op and then log off.

 

Hopefully i'll see you around in DF, my gaming organization intends to be quite active.  =)

Greetings my friend!

Our paths cross once more :) We have to get more in contact, OSS is planning on a good presence in DF as well, and would be great to kick start it together with fine people such as TM and yourself!

EvE has been my "fallback" game as well, it is always where I end up it just hasn't been able to keep me steadilly, yet, I am tired of it as expressed in my previous posts.

Yep, all sounds good- still don't think going in space stations is a bright idea though, but it's clear CCP is going right ahead with real updates to the game. At any rate, i have to complain about the name, though:

Stop using 'Apocrypha' because it sounds cool, developers. Apocrypha, or something that is Apocryphal, is a word for something that is obviously not true- statements like "The grass is white" or "The clouds are green" or, surely contributing to the etymology of the word, "The sky is falling". The other common use of the word is to describe fiction that obviously conflicts with a set canon- a story where WWII contined until today, for example. At any rate, the typical use of it [i]in[/i] video games seems to be imbecilic, like the God Apocrypha in Guild Wars: Nightfall (which must be the god of bull$#!% or something) or here, the Apocrypha expansion, which self implicitly is a lie and won't actually be implemented into the game, according to the title- and I will laugh every time I see it when I log on.

You probably hate me for ebing a nerd right now. Carry on.

too bad eve is still  hostile to over half of the potential players because of its heavy handed pvp obsesive mentality.  i know there are many that would like to play eve but left because of this policy.

any numbeers the getting has more to do with farmers or people with multiple accounts than actual population. 

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Originally posted by brenth
too bad eve is still  hostile to over half of the potential players because of its heavy handed pvp obsesive mentality.  i know there are many that would like to play eve but left because of this policy.

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Those who don't like the PvP aspect of EVE are always welcome to live their life in an NPC corp, running missions or mining. I've given buddy-invites to a few guys I work with, and they have even less time than myself to play games. They all are currently enjoying themselves in the various NPC corps, and one of them trained enough skills to make himself his own 1-man corp. They're running missions, and mining, and the guy who made his own 1-man corp and is setting up his own POS. Yes, I've heard it time and time again about the missions being boring, but still, if they like it, then good for them. We'll probably all get together and eventually form up our own corp.

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Originally posted by brenth
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.

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Your very signature would make one think that the fact EVE is not as easy and happy-happy as any other game, and is actually harsh and hostile just like real life, is something you would appreciate, :)

Originally posted by Danag

 

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Originally posted by brenth
too bad eve is still  hostile to over half of the potential players because of its heavy handed pvp obsesive mentality.  i know there are many that would like to play eve but left because of this policy.

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Those who don't like the PvP aspect of EVE are always welcome to live their life in an NPC corp, running missions or mining. I've given buddy-invites to a few guys I work with, and they have even less time than myself to play games. They all are currently enjoying themselves in the various NPC corps, and one of them trained enough skills to make himself his own 1-man corp. They're running missions, and mining, and the guy who made his own 1-man corp and is setting up his own POS. Yes, I've heard it time and time again about the missions being boring, but still, if they like it, then good for them. We'll probably all get together and eventually form up our own corp.

 

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Originally posted by brenth
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.

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Your very signature would make one think that the fact EVE is not as easy and happy-happy as any other game, and is actually harsh and hostile just like real life, is something you would appreciate, :)

My brother-in-law is the same way. Hes in Eve Uni, stays in high sec, runs missions, mines, Trades in high sec and rats in high sec.

While Most Eve players consider this sad, he is having a blast and when CCP revamps missions and possibly mining later on (we hope) he will have even a better time.

You don't need to travel to low or Null sec to have a good time, hell even guys that like combat can lightly pvp by dropping cans and dueling/baiting and through WARdecs. Eve has alot to offer every type of player.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Danag

 

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Originally posted by brenth
too bad eve is still  hostile to over half of the potential players because of its heavy handed pvp obsesive mentality.  i know there are many that would like to play eve but left because of this policy.

---

 

Those who don't like the PvP aspect of EVE are always welcome to live their life in an NPC corp, running missions or mining. I've given buddy-invites to a few guys I work with, and they have even less time than myself to play games. They all are currently enjoying themselves in the various NPC corps, and one of them trained enough skills to make himself his own 1-man corp. They're running missions, and mining, and the guy who made his own 1-man corp and is setting up his own POS. Yes, I've heard it time and time again about the missions being boring, but still, if they like it, then good for them. We'll probably all get together and eventually form up our own corp.

 

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Originally posted by brenth
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.

---

 

Your very signature would make one think that the fact EVE is not as easy and happy-happy as any other game, and is actually harsh and hostile just like real life, is something you would appreciate, :)

 

My brother-in-law is the same way. Hes in Eve Uni, stays in high sec, runs missions, mines, Trades in high sec and rats in high sec.

While Most Eve players consider this sad, he is having a blast and when CCP revamps missions and possibly mining later on (we hope) he will have even a better time.

You don't need to travel to low or Null sec to have a good time, hell even guys that like combat can lightly pvp by dropping cans and dueling/baiting and through WARdecs. Eve has alot to offer every type of player.

Many people like the Sci-Fi setting, all the fans of games such as Elite, Privateer, Freelancer etc, this game does appeal to...but eventually...it bores them to death because they eventually hit a wall.

Playing just in High Sec is playing only 25% of the game. The problem is that that 75% of the game is not easelly accessible.

EvE is a great idea, it is a Great Environment, vast Space, Solar Systems etc, all that is what people like (contrary to invisible walls stoping your ship in mid space). But EVE has issues too.

It has time sinks, it has boredom, heck most of its music is depressing, its almost as if you have to smoke a joint to play that game.

It touk time to come to this conclusion, but, it is now my view that in reality EVE has in reality, plenty of EQ elements, in an Elite-UO setting, but it is the elements that define game mechanics and ultimatelly one's possibilities.

It has contradictory gameplay, from one side it is a PvP game, with full loot and loss, from the other side it has PVE elements such as super rare and expensive ships and modules.

It simply is a bad formula in my opinion.

Rare and Hard to Get things are good for PVE game rewards, where you never lose em, but put lots of effort to aquire.

in a PvP game, it should be easy go, but also easy come, because the focus of players is not to aquire things but rather do something with em.

So I trully think EVE is in need of a fundamental revamp.

I am really looking for a deep immersive game world and eve does get my juices flowing,, id be playing right now but there are a few "deal breaker" issues that ceep me out of the game

1. the hostile PVP the incessantly ruins my enjoyment of the game

2. the very simplistic missons that puts me in a coma

3. the lack of any interactive content added to the game even though devs promaced it back at release.

im a casual player (carebear)  i like to get on and be able to do some mining or hauling and actually be able to do it semi-afk if i need to without the worry some suicide ganker is gonna ruin my gameplay.

there are also times when I might want to fiddle around with some PVP but it is SO extreem in EVE that even to consider it is unacceptable  as I know I will NEVER be anything more than acasual combat pilot no where near the skill,effeciency or ship level of the extreem hard core PVPers  id rather be a bloody seal in a pool of starving sharks.

and as for the coment about sticking with a NPC corp that is very penalizing and insulting,, would you like it if you were forced to join a NPC corp out of the corp your in now?  it makes no sense to me that mining corps should be preyed upon and DESTROYED simply because they do not wish to be your meat target?

many people that are watching star trek online are using EVE as how not to create STO  and if STO is anywhere near its possible potential  there will be a mass exodous from eve  EVE should be in panic mode right now and better start steping up to the plate or there gonna have to get in line with the rest of their country looking for another job.

Eve is, yes, a very hostile game. that is, of course, why you need to get into a corp if you want to experience the hostile three quarters on your own.

It is part of the game's very concept that the game should work this way. Specifically, it's a hard game designed to be hard. These games are in shrot supply nowadays, and I for one completely approve. If you are a casual player -or in the ingame chat, probably referred to as a noob at best-  go play a casual game. CCP isn't about to hurt the game in the eyes of their loyal hardcore players who pay over long periods of time to make it easier for a less loyal player to experience all the content they are interested in over a short subscription period. It would be the death of the EVE's intrinsic appeal and vaunted honor. Eve was never for casual gamers, a sort which didn't even exist as a viable market when the game was concieved.

Back on topic: What do the people affected by the update think of it?

Wormholes (instances?): Sounds good.

T3 Ships: Yay!

Fixed tutorial and in-game user manual: Games needs it. This is the logical course of action to attract potential new players without hurting the game.

Storyline epic missions: They had better not be like WoW.

So that's the summary of relevant information. Thoughts?