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News & Features Discussion  » Lord of the Rings Online: Best MMO Studio of 2008: Winner

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117 posts found
  Papadam

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/07
Posts: 2127

1/08/09 12:28:18 PM#21
Originally posted by Gameloading
Originally posted by Papadam
Originally posted by Gameloading


 

It's not just my personal opinion, it's the opinion of many professional critics as well who are, unlike many voters on this website, not biased.


 

You meen like theese reviewers?

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/middleearthonline?q=lord%20of%20the%20rings%20online

or theese for MoM?

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/lordoftheringsonlineminesofmoria?q=lord%20of%20the%20rings%20online

I understand that some people think that LotrO is just a lesser WoW clone.. because WoW is the better than LotrO at being WoW... thankfully LotrO is better in other aspects and follows a different design philosophy. So if you are looking for more WoW in LotrO then you are going to be dissapointed.


 

Exact, I'm talking about those reviewers who rate both Lotro and Mines of Mornia below World of Warcraft, The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King.

www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraft

www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcrafttheburningcrusade

www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraftwrathofthelichking

Lotro doesn't follow a different design philosphy, it follows the exact same one as WoW. Make it approachable, lead the players through quests from area to area to keep rewarding the player, and toss in an instance every now and then. Sure, Lotro adds a few more storyline cutscenes, but it's core gameplay mechanics are the same.

 

Lotro is good, just not as good as and that's why World of Warcraft is rated higher and has 11 million subscribers while Lotro has only a few hundred thousand.


 

So you are saying that a MMO needs to get better reviews than WoW and have more subs to not be called a WoW clone but just not as good? Great logic! Its all your opinions... And what does it have to do with best studio of 2008?

Its ironical that I just read a thread where you were defending Aion against thoose who are saying its just an Asian grinder or WoW clone ;) "it's core gameplay mechanics are the same."

If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

  Gameloading

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/04
Posts: 14173

1/08/09 12:32:14 PM#22
Originally posted by Papadam
Originally posted by Gameloading
Originally posted by Papadam
Originally posted by Gameloading


 

It's not just my personal opinion, it's the opinion of many professional critics as well who are, unlike many voters on this website, not biased.


 

You meen like theese reviewers?

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/middleearthonline?q=lord%20of%20the%20rings%20online

or theese for MoM?

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/lordoftheringsonlineminesofmoria?q=lord%20of%20the%20rings%20online

I understand that some people think that LotrO is just a lesser WoW clone.. because WoW is the better than LotrO at being WoW... thankfully LotrO is better in other aspects and follows a different design philosophy. So if you are looking for more WoW in LotrO then you are going to be dissapointed.


 

Exact, I'm talking about those reviewers who rate both Lotro and Mines of Mornia below World of Warcraft, The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King.

www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraft

www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcrafttheburningcrusade

www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraftwrathofthelichking

Lotro doesn't follow a different design philosphy, it follows the exact same one as WoW. Make it approachable, lead the players through quests from area to area to keep rewarding the player, and toss in an instance every now and then. Sure, Lotro adds a few more storyline cutscenes, but it's core gameplay mechanics are the same.

 

Lotro is good, just not as good as and that's why World of Warcraft is rated higher and has 11 million subscribers while Lotro has only a few hundred thousand.


 

So you are saying that a MMO needs to get better reviews than WoW and have more subs to not be called a WoW clone but just not as good? Great logic! Its all your opinions... And what does it have to do with best studio of 2008?

Its ironical that I just read a thread where you were defending Aion against thoose who are saying its just an Asian grinder or WoW clone ;) "it's core gameplay mechanics are the same."


 

No, Thats not what I'm saying. If you're clearly designing your game after WoW's gameplay mechanics, then ofcourse your game is going to be called a WoW clone. Reviews have nothing to do with a game being a clone or not, reviews merely reflect the quality. I already explained what this has to do with best studio of 2008, I suggest you read my posts more carefully.

Also, how is it ironic? Aion's gameplay mechanics differ from WoW's.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

1/08/09 12:35:58 PM#23
Originally posted by Gameloading

Can't say I really agree with it. Imho, Lotro has never really justified it's existance.  It's always been a WoW clone with very little improvements that doesn't really set itself apart. It's a "good, just not as good as..." game.


 

      I dont even know what best "studio" means....Best game? best employee lounge? best pad to crash at after the game?? I agree with you...The game is nothing special, it gets old very quick......WHen I played it felt like it was WOW wrapped up in LoTRO lore......After level 35 the game got excrutiatingly boring and the quests were very poor.....The book quests were good I'll give them that but its a very dull, mundane game after 35.....I didnt try MoM so maybe that put new life into the game....I left when WAR came out and there was little life on my server......The game is great for about a month then its time to move on......

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4818

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

1/08/09 12:36:58 PM#24

Well deserved!

  User Deleted
1/08/09 12:40:23 PM#25
Originally posted by Gameloading
Originally posted by LordAdder
Originally posted by Gameloading

Can't say I really agree with it. Imho, Lotro has never really justified it's existance.  It's always been a WoW clone with very little improvements that doesn't really set itself apart. It's a "good, just not as good as..." game.


 

Good God. Here we go again... WoW clone.

The category isn't best MMO, it's best MMO Studio.  Turbine won because of their Devs' constant presense and availablity to the customers through the forums and even in-game, great customer service, smooth launches, and the constant free content updates.


 

I think it's only fair to judge a studio by the quality of the games they produce, no?
Turbine developers can spend as much time on the forums they like, that doesn't make a game good. In fact, I'd say it really doesn't matter if a developer visits the forum, or if Community managers pass on the issues players have with the game to the developers.

 

Well in that case, in the world of DIKU based games, LOTRO is fucking top notch they excel at technical excellence and engine performance VS. Graphical quality (no one touches them) not to mention everything this vote was really about, as mentioned in the article. They are extremely good to their subscribers, with 4 whole full zones added in the last year alone, including at lest 4 new features to the game to go with them.

 

  brenth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 289

1/08/09 12:45:17 PM#26

I do agree that turbine is top dog but you also have to look at the entire scale  to me  turbine rates a "C" 

they tend to be average and acceptable and relativly stable  but LOTRO is rather plain  even mines of moria for me was a huge letdown  it wasnt much more than the same old thing  just another  zone with a rock sky  nothing orrigional or creative about the game play  and it took most people less than a month to SLAM head first into the level cap   and any quests you do now is a waste of an exp resource for leveling later on.

the best description is "acceptable"

so players do one of several things 

1 go on raiding or pvp or  completing the quests  or workig reputation

2 start a new charactor and do the quests all over again

3 place their charactor in cold storage and play something else until  something new comes along

4 cancel and find a new game

make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.

  User Deleted
1/08/09 12:50:23 PM#27
Originally posted by brenth

I do agree that turbine is top dog but you also have to look at the entire scale  to me  turbine rates a "C" 

they tend to be average and acceptable and relativly stable  but LOTRO is rather plain  even mines of moria for me was a huge letdown  it wasnt much more than the same old thing  just another  zone with a rock sky  nothing orrigional or creative about the game play  and it took most people less than a month to SLAM head first into the level cap   and any quests you do now is a waste of an exp resource for leveling later on.

the best description is "acceptable"

so players do one of several things 

1 go on raiding or pvp or  completing the quests  or workig reputation

2 start a new charactor and do the quests all over again

3 place their charactor in cold storage and play something else until  something new comes along

4 cancel and find a new game

 

 

Your doing it wrong.

 

It’s a casual game, where the journey is king, not the destination. This is not Wow, it is a world. If you want to catass go play Wow. If you’re looking for story (Top notch writing), immersion, and a solid gamming experience try LOTRO.

If you want to rush to end level, then grind for gear, or talk to an NPC, skip the quest text, see your reward, and hit accept, this isn’t your game, never was.

Turbine knows its market, and keeps delivering in spades.

You also completely left out legendary items in your uninformed rant.

 

Everyone is also forgetting that they won best new game in 07, as well as many, MANY other awards.

 

 

“The best MMOG expansion ever.” - Massive Gamer Magazine

“The best fantasy MMORPG yet created.” - WarCry.com

"Mines of Moria, an absolutely brilliant expansion pack that takes everything the development team has learned and crafts it into a sublime MMO experience." 4.5/5.0 stars.- Gamespy

“The Mines of Moria builds on the strengths of the existing game by presenting loads of atmosphere, engaging quests and a meaningful story."- IGN

"It's Awesome." - 1up

"A Stunning and evocative world…destined to become the next big MMO." - Computer and Videogames

"Lord of the Rings Online is already huge, deep, enormously entertaining…" - Games Radar

"…the adventure just gets better the more you play." - GameZone

"LOTR Online is one of those games that refreshes and renews PC gaming, and reminded us what can be great about an MMORPG." - Gaming Illustrated

"It is a major achievement of interactive storytelling, the first game truly worthy of the “Lord of the Rings” franchise and a must-play for just about anyone with an interest in Tolkien or the future of online entertainment. " - New York Times

 

Lets not also forget here people, Turbine invented the standard interface for MMO's that you see in just about every game out there, careful how you throw the world "clone" abouts.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6667

1/08/09 12:52:24 PM#28
Originally posted by Gameloading
Originally posted by LordAdder
Originally posted by Gameloading

Can't say I really agree with it. Imho, Lotro has never really justified it's existance.  It's always been a WoW clone with very little improvements that doesn't really set itself apart. It's a "good, just not as good as..." game.


 

Good God. Here we go again... WoW clone.

The category isn't best MMO, it's best MMO Studio.  Turbine won because of their Devs' constant presense and availablity to the customers through the forums and even in-game, great customer service, smooth launches, and the constant free content updates.


 

I think it's only fair to judge a studio by the quality of the games they produce, no?
Turbine developers can spend as much time on the forums they like, that doesn't make a game good. In fact, I'd say it really doesn't matter if a developer visits the forum, or if Community managers pass on the issues players have with the game to the developers.

 

Nice, you go completely off topic and then try to back peddle when they call you on it.  BTW when you consider what is out there in this genre Lotro is as good as any other.   AC1 and DDO are not bad either and they continue to provide free updates for both.

Turbine continues to provide the best support in the industry.  Only CCP comes close.

  ericbelser

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/08
Posts: 790

1/08/09 12:53:38 PM#29

As always, a whole lot of people need to get over the "I don't like this game, therefore it sucks" BS. LotRO isn't for everyone, but it is a damn fine game. The game had a nearly flawless launch, constant content upgrades and a massively successful paid expansion, can't get much better than that.

It has a graphics style that I happen to like, just as I happen to dislike the graphics style of WoW.

Nor is LotRO a 'WoW Clone", anyone who thinks that simply hasn't played both games. WoW is entirely driven by raiding and gear upgrades from it as an "endgame", rather a different path from LotRO's "epic" book/chapter story arc and trait/accomplishment system. Yeah there are some similarities between the two, but thats inevitable in the same genre and as meaningless as calling WoW an "EQ-clone".

Does LotRO have some weaknesses/problems? Heck yeah, but it's a fun, stable pve game.

Back to the point of this poll though, why did I and others vote for Turbine?

- excellent and prompt customer service in every case I have encountered

- player friendly expansion and pricing policies

- good balance/design decisions keeping the game good for soloists, raiders and small groups

- not feeding the player base heaping piles of BS like Funcom, Mythic and others

 

 

  grimfall

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/07
Posts: 1157

1/08/09 12:59:55 PM#30

They support three respected games, with stable servers.

With less than a million subscribers they provide more free content updates than Blizzard does with one game and  more than 10 X the subscription base.

End of debate.

  erictlewis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3058

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

1/08/09 1:02:24 PM#31

Well first off let me say I paid for the lifetime for both my account and the wifes account.  I love LOTRO.  It sure beet the daylights out of anything sony has done. And dont give me its a wow clone, wow has cheesy graphics, to the point of it looking childish.

Now saying that, we won because everybody was bribed. We were offered a free in game item to come vote.  So that says we have a good size fan base who love the game.  Maybe Wow and the other MMO's could have leanred form that lesson.  Offer your subcribers something, they will jump at the chance to give you a good tumbs up.

Now I have to comment on Mines of Moria.  It was pourly executed. We have had numerous crahses, and silent patches since its rollout.  There has been tons of downtime on the most populated server BRANDYWINE.  In fact its down more than the other servers.  We have tons of lag due to the way the entire mines were laid out.

Things I would like to see, do something  to help with the lag, like cap off the server, or dedicate more resources. Undo the nerf bat to the Mini class, it was a popular class now days its hard to find a good one. On thing that all good MMO's should be aware of ; and that is the player base does not like their skills trashed.

All in all, I still love my LOTRO,  I play it every day sure beets anything else out there, and even if you think the vote was rigged, it was done so by folks who love their game.

 

  pb1285n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/06
Posts: 506

1/08/09 1:04:38 PM#32

 I don't understand why people get so excited over this awards. They mean nothingt except that MMORPG.com is full of LOTRO fans. If this poll actually reflected the majority of the playerbase then Turbine would have the most subscribers. As it stands now it has 1 game with a decent number of subscriptions.

2 years ago CCP and Eve fans invaded this website now it's Turbines turn and I wouldn't be surprised if next year at this time it was someone else (maybe Aion and NCSoft?).

People's Choice Awards are a joke, especially when you polling a very small percentage of the people many who are extremely uninformed.

 

How can you even judge which company is better especially when many of you haven't even taken the time to research each company, their philosphy, customer service, community involvement, etc

 

Sorry I am not saying Turbine doesn't deserve the award. I love AC, I am playing LOTRO right now. I am just saying that the poll is a joke. If you took 100 players from each companies games and polled them the results would look alot different.

  Ian_Hawkmoon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/04
Posts: 366

Sweet Water & Light Laughter
Till Next We Meet.

1/08/09 1:08:56 PM#33
Originally posted by brenth

CONGRATZ TURBINE! YOU REALLY DESERVE IT!

first off  when LOTRO was released  It was a unbelieveably solid and complete game. most mmos in the past have the reputation for going live anywhere from 40% to 80% ready  and the developers "fixing" probem in the first few months of release.  for turbine there was little trace if any of the game being "incomplete" upon release  

 

One quick thing here...  As to being complete on release...  What about no skills or traits after lvl 41 except legendary traits?  What about not enough quests past level 30?

if i only knew this fact alone it would have been worthy.

but turbine goes farther!  they have been nearly obsessively punctual about  ingame expansions on mainly a 2 month scedual only going to 4 month with a major zone installment. and to top it off  these additions to the game have for the most part IMPROVED the game or at least headed in the same direction I was hoping they would go. (the only exception to this was fishing which to me was insulting)

turbine is definatly on the right track  are they perfect?  no  but they have the right idea

some things I would like to see in 2009

BOATS  they have some weard aversion to them and it ruins the game immersion

more in game diversions such as public works projects  and "amusement areas/attractions(skating,sking areas,, sailing, water slides in moria, ore cart rollercoasters,, log rolls,ect. this is rather brief but you can imagine that im thinking of)"

things like slippery ice and interactive terrain  and  (zones are dead once the quests are completed need a reason for players to want to go back to them )

more choices in charactor appearance (faces)

the next improvement to the housing area  having only 20 ridgid item hooks in a house is far too restrictive my house is just a storage area

for me a much more complex fishing than click wait click

Im allready level 60 and i dont see the point in raiding or pvp  so that leaves me fustrated and looking for something to do in game.

VOICE OVERS!!  they really need to add voice overs to the major quests  its just not the same reading what a nazgul is saying instead of actually hearing that raspy,creepy voice.

crafting has become a useless  id like to see them make some improvement to the usefullness and customization of the crafts (id like to see many more usefull and unique ground spawns.

some other attractions in LOTRO

costume clothing sets! greatly increased the customization of how your charactor looks!! i have a set of "work" clothes  and a set of "cold weather" clothes

music system! besides there being some prety catchy in game tunes  they have a prety darn good player music system  and you can hear some prety innovative tunes being played in towns and camps

 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17203

1/08/09 1:09:10 PM#34
Originally posted by Gameloading
Originally posted by Papadam
Originally posted by Gameloading
Originally posted by Paragus1
Originally posted by Gameloading

Can't say I really agree with it. Imho, Lotro has never really justified it's existance.  It's always been a WoW clone with very little improvements that doesn't really set itself apart. It's a "good, just not as good as..." game.

 

While I share your opinion of the game itself, Turbine launched the game relatively smooth.  My main issue with Turbine as a company is how they ruined Asheron's Call with a horrid sequel.   They should give AC1 some love, maybe make it free to play, promote it more, or give it some sort of graphical overhaul.


 

While Lotro did indeed have a smooth launch, that was in 2007, not 2008.

They haven't done anything really special in 2008 besides releasing a good expansion pack which is,sorry to repeat myself, "good,just not as good as..."

Also, I can't really say that Dungeons & Dragons Online received anything truly noteworthy.

I agree with you on AC1. AC1 is just sort of sitting there. It doesn't really have a lot of subscribers, it would be nice if Turbine was a bit more creative with the game. Make it free, perhaps an item mall, advertise it a little bit on banners and the game might just be revived again.


 

Well thats your personal opinion that LotrO is "good,just not as good as..."

There is people who dont agree and think that LotrO offers something unique in the MMO market and Turbine are doing a great job with it. 46% of the voters thinks that Turbine is best of thoose companies so it seem Im not alone.

And grats Turbine :)

 


 

It's not just my personal opinion, it's the opinion of many professional critics as well who are, unlike many voters on this website, not biased.


 

whoa, wait a minute. I know you are smarter than that Gameloading. A critic can be as biased as anyone else. I've seen it time and time again in the arts. Yes, it is their job to give their opinion and because of a wide array of experiences that opinion is supposed to be an educated opinion, but they are still people with likes and dislikes.

How many time have I seen a movie review only to see the reviewer pan some aspect that I thought was why the movie was a good one? Many.

Same can be said for games.

There are many critics who like LOTRO. In the end it comes down to personal opinion. Personal opinion of players, critics, what have you.

Is LOTRO the end all and be all of games? No of course not. But it does many things right for many people.

as far as this bit of recognition, it is merely a poll of some of the people who visit this site. Perhaps if there was a similiar poll on another site they would get a different result.

But for this site, many players (myself included) have been impressed with the work and effort that Turbine has put in LOTRO. And given some of my experiences with other game companies I can't say that it is wrong. Are there better games? Possibly but that is subjective. And in the end it is the impression that Turbine has made on players that gives them this bit of recognition.

If Aion was to come out right now I'd probably just go and play Aion because I don't have time to play other games. But if you were to ask me which was the better game company I would probably still say Turbine even though I left LOTRO for a NC Soft game. I think given my experiences with many of these companies that Turbine has been more consistant with delivering. One might not like their games and there is nothing wrong with that, but pound for pound I think their effort and customer service as been the most impressive.

I would also say that though games like DDO and AC1 might not have huge followings, the players that are playing those games really like them. I think that says a lot about a game. A game doesn't have to cater to everyone but if it caters to a segment of the populations that loves what is being done then that says a lot for that game and the work being done with it.

  John.A.Zoid

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 1554

1/08/09 1:39:17 PM#35

Turbine.....

The company that released the lackluster Lotro and DnD, two of the biggest fantasy franchises and they butchered them in mmorpg form.

  tkobo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/06
Posts: 472

Current MMO dev teams = Keystone cops.A pure comedy of errors,sadly its not as intentional.

1/08/09 1:47:27 PM#36

Let me guess..... there was no "none of the above" choice in this poll ...right ?

 

 

 

  blindside044

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/08
Posts: 250

1/08/09 1:56:59 PM#37

As an MMORPG fan, I have played an MMO from all those Studios, Turbine got my vote by far. LoTRO being as good as it is, and DDO (though started as a terrible game, has improved significantly) is very fun and unique in the MMO genre. And CCP should of came in second; even though I do not play Eve Online, they have done a really good job on that game, it's just not my style.

  Kordesh

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 1731

1/08/09 2:05:01 PM#38

I said to myself I wasn't going to butt in, but here we go.

Turbine deserved this is hands down. Anyone who's played the early years of AC or LoTRO knows they know how to run a game, and they know how to create a symbiotic relationship between the players and the company, rather than simply leeching them dry like some other companies that won't be mentioned.

People compairing the game to WoW are falling into the same trap and curse that every other game on the market is under right now. The preconception that "To be a good MMO, you must be WoW'. Yes, it shares the core mechanics in that you kill stuff, loot drops, and you level. But that is not "core WoW mechanics" that's core MMO mechanics. WoW hardly cornered the market on "grinding loot and levels". What WoW players tend to look for and what the people who play LoTRO look for is vastly different. WoW players look at LoTRO and see a boring game where the armor isn't ridiculously huge or flashy enough, without constant raiding or the other gear grinding accoutrements they're used to. What they don't see is that's not the point, and that's what differentiates this so called "WoW Clone." LoTRO was designed using the old MMO concept of developing a virtual world, not just a linear gear grind. It's not about powering on to the level cap so you can raid raid raid until the next armor tier is dropped. It's about exploring the LoTRO universe, playing through the story as it unfolds with each book, and running around with your group completing a few quests or earning some deeds, maybe crafting a few things,  before capping off the day by going back to your player owned house and fishing in the nearby lake. As mentioned before, LoTRO is all about the journey, not the destination, or the grinding, or the loot. Sure, it's there, but it's not the only driving force to the game. This doesn't appeal to everyone because to most of the people brought in by WoW, the WoW concept of what an MMO is, is all they know, and they're just looking for simple grinding fun. That's fine, it's different. But understand that just because it caters to a different audience, doesn't make it simply "failing at being this game I think is better."

As for one of the bigger complaints about the look and feel of the game, it's not going to appeal to everyone. The LoTR universe can best be described as "realisitc fantasy". As in, it's a fantasy world no doubt, but it's one that with a dash of trolls and pinch of magic added, could actually exist. As the game is kept well in check to not go blatantly against the spirit of the LoTRO universe, the classes, abilities, and yes the armor styles, are stylized but conservative to the point where you could actually see them being worn/made as opposed to WoW where it's not uncommon to see a human warrior hauling around more steel than a panzer tank. Personally, especially with Moria, I like how they're managed to keep it semi-realistic while still making the newer equipment look more ornate.

tl;dr version: WoW and LoTRO are similar in core MMO concepts only. The direction and community are wholely different animals. WoW players might not understand it, but LoTRO players don't understand what WoW players see in their game either. What needs to be accepted is that things can be different without being "not enough like that other game." Not everything needs or wants to be similar, and not everything must be assimilated.

Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.

EAT ME MMORPG.com!

  Kinikka

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/04
Posts: 25

1/08/09 2:26:16 PM#39

What a joke...

 

Then again I never did have much if any respect for the main following here at MMORPG.Com.

-Kin

  Scalebane

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 2240

1/08/09 2:37:52 PM#40

really people no need to fight about it, there was just more turbine fans here on mmorpg.com then others, we all know its just a popularity contest, some may post honestly but its basically American Idol hehe, look how many people actually come to mmorpg.com clearly a lot avoid it, if there were more fans of other companies posting here we know things would have been different.

But in my Opinion Turbine is a pretty good company, they have lots of experience.  i put blizzard up along side them myself, for their first MMO they certainly rocked the world, not too mention i doubt many have games that have been out for 10 or so years and keep selling off the shelves. (not too mention a whole country, nearly worships Star Craft lol)

"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas

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