PVE Purposes...(PVP I shall not discuss because thats a hot topic)
 

What really does make a good class system? I mean, is it a system where your tanks and healers are consistent and not out damaging your dps classes? Does it work as long as you have the number of archetype classes in a group so that you will succeed? Can each class or each archetype of class complement each other? What is it to you that make a good class system? I have my idea that I will be posting as a whole on the developers corner soon.
Which games had the best idea and potential to be great? Which games where out right horrible?

I think WoW’s class system is garbage because its 2-3 classes in one class. The talent system limits your class to a small form.

I think EQ had a great direction as well as Vanguard. 
 

*I'll post in more depth after work* 

        I like clearly defined classes. I don't like do it alls like in AOC. When i played that game I didn't feel as much like a healer as i would have liked I felt more like a fighter who could also do some healing. Eq2 Is another one that while i like the game I always go :( when I think about classes. There are just too many. Too many healers leaves one feeling almost... i dunno lost in a crowd. As a 58 templar sometimes I can't find parties due to the leader wanting a non plate healer and sometimes the opposite on my warden. It's nice for variety and custimization but sometimes I wish there were less of each subclass so you'd feel more important (as lame as that sounds). Not to mention there always seems to be that constant argument of who's better at what job and you end up with flavor of the month builds that flood the scene.
 

        ff11 has a decent class system all classes having clear jobs and positions in the PVE but they railroded themselves with the subjob system. Although a good system in it's own right it kind of forced them into a steady level cap that'll never raise. If it did the subjob would have access to powers normally just powerfull enough to warrant the original limitation.
 

          On the other hand of the spectrum we have the skills based class thingy some people love. I myself am on the wall. While i always loved the open aspect of building what you liked I always seemed to feel watered down never really gaining access to the more cinimatic abilities of a classed system. Not to mention with those systems it's fairly easy to screw up your character and force yourself to kinda start over (although some games have respeccing).
          

           As of now i don't think anyones got it perfect nor can they really in the end. Too many classes isn't great for it's own reasons, not enough has just as many problems. Classless skill based definitly has it's draw backs just as strict level up class ones do. It really comes down to flavor. Once you find what game has the perfect flavor of proggression that you like thats the game you'll probably keep comming back to.
 

       I liked the way Everquest did their classes for a couple reasons....First, every class had a role it could play and sometimes a different role depending on the group make up.....Another thing I liked about EQs class system was that every class was useful and could be used......Most classes also offered unique buffs that were often paid for by other players......

      There was also a little known game called Rubies of Eventide that had a unique class system.......They had over 100 different classes and while some wer every similar there were some very neat ideas to the class system.....Lets say you wanted to be a mage......Well in RoE you put points into different categories for your character......Your mage spells would be fairly cheap but you could also do things like wear heavier armor or use other classes spells but at a cost (and a severe one for wearing heavier armor).....You only had so many points you could distribute but if you really wanted that plate wearing mage it was a possiblity......The great thing about RoE is no one had the same build in any class and your possibilities were endless.....RoE had great ideas but the combat was horrible and the game had terrible lag..

The best class system is no class system. Skill based is infinitely better.

nice to see people agreeing that guildwars class system is teh sex. its more like a skill system, an alternative to a class sytem tho.

Guild Wars

where you are largely defined by what character skills you currently have equipped

I like how you have a choice of 200+ skills/spells to pick from but can only carry 8 actively

Everquest did something similar but was extremely class rigid

EQ Casters could only "actively" equip 8 spells out of their spell book

Originally posted by Abrahmm

The best class system is no class system. Skill based is infinitely better.

You know I can't really disagree or agree here. The main problem I see with sandbox style is massive balance issues. I haven't really played much of any sandbox mmos yet so I can't comment on them. For my style, I like the linear classes with freedom.

Why do people always leave out Lineage 2. I'll say again, Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 are the second and 3rd most succesful MMORPG's ever, next to WoW. Not to mention Lineage came out before EQ, and had millions of players, while people though EQ's 100k subscribers was a big deal. They are also new, still have millions of players, and not to mention L2 had a very unique class evolution system, where as you level up, you evolve your class into something more specific...and the addition of subclasses. It gets my vote, second would be GW.

WoW was the only mmorpg that made every class fun to play. Everyother class based mmorpg did combat poorly and just had such generic classes that I couldn't decide what I wanted to play and I ended up going through all the classes and being bored before I ever really started. World of Warcraft on the other hand just made me feel at home with any class and just had so much fun with anything I played and I spose thats the genius of Blizzard. In a game like WAR there was like 4 classes in each archetype and all of them felt bland and the same and not fun to play + the combat feels off in that game compared to WoW. Why does there need to be 4 types of bland tanks? Just make one called a warrior and make it fun to play and let you chose your style between talents. I just love how every class in WoW is different and sooooooo fun.

Personally though my fave is what SWG did pre CU.

Originally posted by Calind0r

Why do people always leave out Lineage 2. I'll say again, Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 are the second and 3rd most succesful MMORPG's ever, next to WoW. Not to mention Lineage came out before EQ, and had millions of players, while people though EQ's 100k subscribers was a big deal. They are also new, still have millions of players, and not to mention L2 had a very unique class evolution system, where as you level up, you evolve your class into something more specific...and the addition of subclasses. It gets my vote, second would be GW.

You know I shouldn't of left out Lineage 2. I wish there where 11 spots.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

WoW was the only mmorpg that made every class fun to play. Everyother class based mmorpg did combat poorly and just had such generic classes that I couldn't decide what I wanted to play and I ended up going through all the classes and being bored before I ever really started. World of Warcraft on the other hand just made me feel at home with any class and just had so much fun with anything I played and I spose thats the genius of Blizzard. In a game like WAR there was like 4 classes in each archetype and all of them felt bland and the same and not fun to play + the combat feels off in that game compared to WoW. Why does there need to be 4 types of bland tanks? Just make one called a warrior and make it fun to play and let you chose your style between talents. I just love how every class in WoW is different and sooooooo fun.

Personally though my fave is what SWG did pre CU.

I can't say that I agree with you fellow. The only class in WoW that I could tolerate was a mage. Talents do  no really customize the class at all. It limits them down poorly. Spamming 1-3 buttons is not fun with no strategy. All it is if you have gear. Please don't take my intentions in this reply as a bash, I just think WoW's class system is poorly done.

I like different classes for each archetype. I think it gives a nice veriety. Check out my thread I will post about my mmo idea. (Will be posted shortly) You might change your mind.

the class systems of aoc and WoW are identical.

Originally posted by Calind0r

Why do people always leave out Lineage 2. I'll say again, Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 are the second and 3rd most succesful MMORPG's ever, next to WoW. Not to mention Lineage came out before EQ, and had millions of players, while people though EQ's 100k subscribers was a big deal.

internationally that was true

but Lineage was not available to North America until October 2001

www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl

Lineage never had  the same presence in North America that it achieved in Korea

look at the Lineage numbers from the Financial report from last year

www.massively.com/2008/02/21/q4-2007-ncsoft-s-subscription-numbers-and-tabula-rasa-s-financial/

Lineage
[Worldwide]: 1,049,763 subscriptions (down 93,936 from Q3)
[North America]: 6,414 subscriptions (down 585 from Q3)

Lineage 2
[Worldwide]: 926,570 subscriptions (down 4,693 from Q3)
[North America & Europe]: 79,986 subscriptions (up 943 from Q3)

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

WoW was the only mmorpg that made every class fun to play. Everyother class based mmorpg did combat poorly and just had such generic classes that I couldn't decide what I wanted to play and I ended up going through all the classes and being bored before I ever really started. World of Warcraft on the other hand just made me feel at home with any class and just had so much fun with anything I played and I spose thats the genius of Blizzard. In a game like WAR there was like 4 classes in each archetype and all of them felt bland and the same and not fun to play + the combat feels off in that game compared to WoW. Why does there need to be 4 types of bland tanks? Just make one called a warrior and make it fun to play and let you chose your style between talents. I just love how every class in WoW is different and sooooooo fun.

Personally though my fave is what SWG did pre CU.

 

I can't say that I agree with you fellow. The only class in WoW that I could tolerate was a mage. Talents do  no really customize the class at all. It limits them down poorly. Spamming 1-3 buttons is not fun with no strategy. All it is if you have gear. Please don't take my intentions in this reply as a bash, I just think WoW's class system is poorly done.

I like different classes for each archetype. I think it gives a nice veriety. Check out my thread I will post about my mmo idea. (Will be posted shortly) You might change your mind.

I always found like Archetypes just water down the classes and make them boring to play. EQ2 and WaR both suffered from such boring classes and really the classes in each archetype were the same with the same basic skills. So really there may be more classes but you know sometimes less is more and thats the case in WoW.

Also the talents while they may be cookie cutter you basically have 3 classes in one that you can choose from. I always played priest and I could choose from being a healer to being a shadow dmg dealer to being a survivor and each one play so differently so it's like having each class of that archetype in that one class. Sure they coulda made 3 different main healers and water them down but they didn't and that made each class more fun

In WoW I knew I wanted to be a healer and picked a priest and got esactly what I wanted and had fun. On top of this I found every single class to be fun and this was prtly due to WoW doing combat better than anyother mmorpg out there but also because they are all unique and fun, you can't say one class is alike.

In EQ2 I made ALT after ALT of not having fun with a poor combat system and bland boring classes and just ended up giving up.

I wasnt even aware there was ever an english version of Lineage made. Lineage 2 is around 100k for NA/EU...but those numbers dropped drastically when it had over 4 million worldwide subscribers back in 05-06.

WOW ... all the classes and talent build have different distinct style of play. I have a mage (main) and a hunter. Both are DPS classes but the way they play are very different.

Dungeons and Dragons Online

Not for the reasons you listed but I believe it is a great class system with enough variation to create just about any character type

Originally posted by Calind0r

I wasnt even aware there was ever an english version of Lineage made. Lineage 2 is around 100k for NA/EU...but those numbers dropped drastically when it had over 4 million worldwide subscribers back in 05-06.

I agree,  Lineage was much more successful pre-WOW

but Lineage2 was never 4 million  (unless you combine with Lineage)

take a look at this editorial regarding Q1 2006

www.cesspit.net/drupal/node/1334

theres a graph showing Lineage2 subscriber counts by region from 2004 through 2006

www.cesspit.net/drupal/storeroom/misc/q12006-lineage2.gif

I like FFXI's job system the most.  Second is DAoC's class system. 

Compaired to all of those, I enjoyed star wars galaxies (before the mess up disaster) class system. I wish it was back to normall again, I probably would start playing.